AMG taking over SW minis games from FFG

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**kodos**

FFG is not seen as Miniature Company but as a Gaming Company hence people don't expect the best Minis from FFG but good games

using the Boardgame approach with ready to play models worked very well for X-Wing
no reason why having the focus on the game should be a problem for Legion except that the money is made with extensive model sales

if this will be better with a miniature company and the focus on models instead of the game will be seen (worst case is that we just see lots of Clone themed 40k armies)

**ced1106**

> Do you... maybe, have any kind of hard info about that? I mean, I am working on that line. Or rather, those lines.

I personally don't. I'm passing along what a hardcore L5R LCG player and CCG game designer said, who has some but not deep industry contacts. You can see for yourself how much faith L5R LCG players have in the game from the BGG link I provided. I've seen enough "lifestyle" games from FFG that its not too hard to guess what's more likely to survive and what won't. Certainly, the gaming market cannot handle the number of lifestyle games introduced in the last few years. You' don't even need a KS to introduce a new miniatures game line (although Osprey Publishing's Nickstarters seem to be working just fine), I've also heard of enough cases of game designers being some of the last people to know a game has been dropped by the company. (Same model they use in software design...

> using the Boardgame approach with ready to play models worked very well for X-Wing
> no reason why having the focus on the game should be a problem for Legion except that the money is made with extensive model sales

Well, when Legion was released, I read posts complaining about the incompatibility of the Legion miniatures with Imperial Assault (sp) miniatures. Also, FFG has a line of SW Legion paints. If that doesn't suggest at least some attention to Legion as a hobby model miniatures line I don't know what will. I do agree that. I'm sure that FFG/Asmodee wants their SW models to be accessible to both boardgamers and hobbyists for a larger market, including collectors who don't play (aka. KS backers, right?). A Dakka thread at least anecdotally explained that many SW models were bought not to be played with, but to be collected on desks for display. I figure we'll find out soon enough what direction AMG will take Legion, and how well that plan will go. As someone who was in the hobby during the CCG glut of the 1990's, I don't particularly recommend investing too much in any lifestyle game besides the most popular ones without accepting the likelihood that the game will be dropped after a few years, after you've dropped a few hundred dollars into it.

ced1106 wrote:
I personally don't. I'm passing along what a hardcore L5R LCG player and CCG game designer said, who has some but not deep industry contacts. You can see for yourself how much faith L5R LCG players have in the game from the BGG link I provided.

There is no real doubt that the LCG has some meta-game issues, with some overpowered cards getting released from time to time, but, on the basis that FFG owns the L5R property outright, I'd lean toward it being rather unlikely to die any time soon. Killing licensed, low-selling games is a no-brainer, since you have to beat out the licensing cost to even break even, but that is a non-factor for L5R in this case.

**kodos**

ced1106 wrote:

Well, when Legion was released, I read posts complaining about the incompatibility of the Legion miniatures with Imperial Assault (sp) miniatures. Also, FFG has a line of SW Legion paints. If that doesn't suggest at least some attention to Legion as a hobby model miniatures line I don't know what will. I do agree that. I'm sure that FFG/Asmodee wants their SW models to be accessible to both boardgamers and hobbyists for a larger market, including collectors who don't play

having 2 lines with similar models is a problem if the market is overlapping
but even if both would have been the same scale, people would have complained because needing to buy them again for the cards
yet to a point Legion and Imperial Assault are not meant for the same target group with one being a boardgame and the other a competitive wargame, so it is easier to keep them appart by using a different scale (and some people are just angry that their most liked character was released in IA but not for Legion)

that Legion also is looking into the market of collectors is a thing, yet collectors who buy 1 Vader and 1 unit of Stormtroopers are not those who bring in the money compared to those who have each unit 3 times and are buying each new model to play the game

but I agree only time will tell if this is going to work out well or not

**Shrapnelsmile**

ced1106 wrote:
> Do you... maybe, have any kind of hard info about that? I mean, I am working on that line. Or rather, those lines.

Well, when Legion was released, I read posts complaining about the incompatibility of the Legion miniatures with Imperial Assault (sp) miniatures. Also, FFG has a line of SW Legion paints. If that doesn't suggest at least some attention to Legion as a hobby model miniatures line I don't know what will. I do agree that. I'm sure that FFG/Asmodee wants their SW models to be accessible to both boardgamers and hobbyists for a larger market, including collectors who don't play (aka. KS backers, right?). A Dakka thread at least anecdotally explained that many SW models were bought not to be played with, but to be collected on desks for display. I figure we'll find out soon enough what direction AMG will take Legion, and how well that plan will go. As someone who was in the hobby during the CCG glut of the 1990's, I don't particularly recommend investing too much in any lifestyle game besides the most popular ones without accepting the likelihood that the game will be dropped after a few years, after you've dropped a few hundred dollars into it.

I agree -- We are very hesitatnt to invest in small company games that required a specfic range of models at this point. So much lost...and the major player companies are retiring
units left and right, even if the game system is 30 years old.

We are gravitating towards releases that allow model flexibility. For example, I sold my Legion components and kept my painted stormtroopers and Rebels for Star Breach, a general sci-fi
skirmish rule book.

**LunarSol**

Ah, Imperial Assault. It's worth noting that that one was really kind of a cheat as far as miniature games go. It was always rather tacked on, largely as an attempt to skirt around the fact they only had the rights to make Star Wars miniature games, but wanted to make a board game. They still ended up having to pay Hasbro in the end.

It was a great game but it really reached a pretty natural end of life as far as a board game is concerned. You fought Palpatine on Coruscant after all. Board games rarely expand forever the same way miniatures do and that game had done all it needed to do. I get why people were upset it didn't turn into Legion, but owning both, its less of a figure scale issue and more of a "type of game collection" issue. 3 monopose figure squads don't really translate very far into an army collection.

A big part of it was just that Imperial Assault really represented the worst of FFG's excesses in terms of expansion sprawl. The Boba Fett expansion featuring Boba Fett (Boba Fett sold separately) was pretty crazy for most people,and the actual competitive mode was kind of a joke, but for the people invested, it was a BIG investment. I get the desire for it to pay off in Legion, but I'm glad Legion wasn't limited to its failings.

**warboss**

LunarSol wrote: I get why people were upset it didn't turn into Legion, but owning both, its less of a figure scale issue and more of a "type of game collection" issue. 3 monopose figure squads don't really translate very far into an army collection.

That's why you can simply come out with new releases in the same scale with greater variety for the people who do care and want that extra poseability (and most importantly are willing to pay for the priviledge). Problem solved! Unless of course the real goal was to force everyone interested to pay for the priveledge in the first place...

having 2 lines with similar models is a problem if the market is overlapping
but even if both would have been the same scale, people would have complained because needing to buy them again for the cards

Using your logic, you can divide the player base into three groups (although #2 and 3 likely have significant overlap):

1) Those who don't care and/or don't know any better (most likely by far the largest group)
2) Those who complain about needing to buy them for the cards
3) Those who complain about needing to buy them for the new scale

Keeping them the same scale makes two groups happy instead of just one and all three would be happy if they also published the cards separately for purchase. It's a win win for consumers so I don't understand why you're trying so hard to justify it from a consumer angle when none exists. They made the choice that was the absolute worst for the consumer and it was done for their own bottom line. It's ok that they did that and they're perfectly entitled to do so but lets not pretend that they were in some sort of dilemna where fans wouldn't be happy regardless.

**Dysartes**

LunarSol wrote:
It was a great game but it really reached a pretty natural end of life as far as a board game is concerned. You fought Palpatine on Coruscant after all. Board games rarely expand forever the same way miniatures do and that game had done all it needed to do. I get why people were upset it didn't turn into Legion, but owning both, its less of a figure scale issue and more of a "type of game collection" issue. 3 monopose figure squads don't really translate very far into an army collection.

I'd argue IA was about one expansion short - or at least a wave of booster packs short - but that expansion would need some work to be thematic.

I know a lot of players wanted an Endor expansion with Ewoks, for example, and there are characters from the films (Yoda, or 4-LOM and Zuckuss) that seem like obvious releases which were ignored.

**kodos**

never said it was the best choice for the costumer
it was a a good enough reason for a gaming company to keep its Boardgame and Wargame appart
and there are other reasons why you want your games to be recognised as different
there are enough Wargamers who won't touch a Boardgame and vica versa,
so the chance on missing big sales in your target group (those who don't care or know, the largest group) is high while missing out on 1 of the smaller groups is not a big problem (as some of them buy in anyway)

**bbb**

Another update from them yesterday (added to first post):

https://www.atomicmassgames.com/starwars-qa

November 17, 2020

This Is Where the Fun Begins
Atomic Mass Games Launches Into the Galaxy of Star Wars Miniatures

Yesterday’s announcement that Atomic Mass Games (AMG) will be taking responsibility for the continued development of Star Wars: X-Wing, Star Wars: Armada, and Star Wars: Legion represents an exciting development for miniatures games in a galaxy far, far away.

We spoke with Atomic Mass’ Simone Elliott (Head of Studio) and Will Shick (Head of Product Development) to gain more information on what fans can expect in the future and for more background on the factors leading to this reorganization.

Let’s start with the most obvious question. Fantasy Flight has launched and maintained three incredibly successful Star Wars miniatures games. Why the move to Atomic Mass?

Simone: In a word, specialization. Moving to AMG gives us the perfect opportunity to develop our miniatures games in a studio devoted entirely to miniatures, rather than board and card tabletop games. It’s a place where these specific types of games can truly thrive.

Will: And that devotion Simone mentions, our singular focus on hobby miniatures, is fueled by our team’s lifelong passion for creating great games. Combining that passion with the incredibly solid foundation laid by the team at Fantasy Flight is basically like bringing balance to the Force. We have the tools and we have the talent to build on that foundation and take these miniatures games even further.

Does this mean we should expect changes to X-Wing, Legion, and Armada?

Will: One of Atomic Mass’ core philosophies is that there is no finish line. We see ourselves on a lifelong journey of learning and improvement. That’s a pretentious way of saying yes (laughs).

If we’re doing the job right, and staying true to our ethos as a studio, changes will most certainly happen. But those changes will always be in service of making great games even better. I should also point out that any change process will always be measured and highly considerate. These games have solid fan bases made up of people who have invested their hard-earned money, and more importantly, their time and creativity, into creating armies, squadrons, and fleets that are unique reflections of who they are.

We’re a studio made up of people who love and engage in the hobby daily. We deeply understand that kind of investment on a personal level, and we’re committed to honoring and valuing it in everything we do.

Does that include new Star Wars miniatures games? Can we expect to see any additional titles?

Simone: While we’re hyper-focused on our current games, we’re always thinking of new ones, too. Will and I have talked a lot about how we can create cool new Star Wars miniatures games that will excite fans and immerse them in the stories they love so much.

Will: The galaxy far, far away is a really big place with a lot to explore. It doesn’t take Emperor Palpatine’s Force abilities to foresee that this is just the beginning for Star Wars miniatures games.

For more on the Star Wars miniatures transition to Atomic Mass Games, check out our official press release.

**LunarSol**

warboss wrote:
LunarSol wrote: I get why people were upset it didn't turn into Legion, but owning both, its less of a figure scale issue and more of a "type of game collection" issue. 3 monopose figure squads don't really translate very far into an army collection.

That's why you can simply come out with new releases in the same scale with greater variety for the people who do care and want that extra poseability (and most importantly are willing to pay for the priviledge). Problem solved! Unless of course the real goal was to force everyone interested to pay for the priveledge in the first place...

One does not simply....

I think any sort of conversion pack would have cost more than just buying the Legion equivalents as is. Like they were selling 3 single pose Fleet Troopers for $18. There's no efficient way to translate that into a conversion pack product that doesn't cost more than the $25 cost of the proper Legion sculpts for the things. That even assumes there's enough interest from the board game crowd that the game was sold to to make the jump to a proper miniatures line. I get the love for IA and I get the desire to reuse its figures, but in the case of IA, it would just be a case of throwing good money after bad to try and make them work.

**Monkeysloth**

ced1106 wrote:
> Do you... maybe, have any kind of hard info about that? I mean, I am working on that line. Or rather, those lines.

I personally don't. I'm passing along what a hardcore L5R LCG player and CCG game designer said, who has some but not deep industry contacts. You can see for yourself how much faith L5R LCG players have in the game from the BGG link I provided. I've seen enough "lifestyle" games from FFG that its not too hard to guess what's more likely to survive and what won't. Certainly, the gaming market cannot handle the number of lifestyle games introduced in the last few years.

I don't think that BGG link is very indicative on the player base as one of the first posts, by a fan of the game but that doesn't discount his point, is that BGG doesn't attract many CCG players so people that just live there don't really have an idea of a game's popularity.

**Matt Swain**

I'd never buy another ffg game given their history of simply dropping popular games and leaving the players with basically a "Smell ya l8r, suckers!" attitude.

I was into their 40k rpg line and it was doing well, then they just dropped it like a rock, leaving the players with a slammed door in the face.

Speakest ye not to me of "wrath and glory" lest I call upon a brother to bring me the flamer. The heavy flamer.

**hotsauceman1**

I mean, Xwing, Armada and Legion are Insanely popular games. With dedicated fanbases and i think legion might be the 5th most bought wargame.
You dont have to worry about them being dropped

**kodos**

this has less to do with FFG but licenced games in general

no matter how well it does (or sometimes because it is doing well) if the licence is removed or not extended the game is dead

so no one will know how long it will last
yet no one can take the game from you anyway and as you can download the rules, just always have a copy on your harddrive and the future of your game is save no matter what is going to happen with FFG or the Licence

**Monkeysloth**

Matt Swain wrote:
I'd never buy another ffg game given their history of simply dropping popular games and leaving the players with basically a "Smell ya l8r, suckers!" attitude.

I was into their 40k rpg line and it was doing well, then they just dropped it like a rock, leaving the players with a slammed door in the face.

Speakest ye not to me of "wrath and glory" lest I call upon a brother to bring me the flamer. The heavy flamer.

This one is hard as they pretty much lost the license. We really don't know if it was FFG not wanting to renew, not being able to afford or if GW killed it on their end.

That being said the 40k RPG from them had lots and lots of books. It was pretty well supported until the last year or so (probably because FFG already knew the outcome of the license) and there's not much missing from what their vision of what a 40k RPG should be (as I don't think they ever really wanted to get into playing as Xenos).

**ced1106**

> A big part of it was just that Imperial Assault really represented the worst of FFG's excesses in terms of expansion sprawl.

Ah, right. During the end of the CCG glut, you had to have a CCG that was attached to an IP to attract attention from the rest of the other CCG's. Yet some IP's, including SW, have only so much popular content before you start having to sell the less popular stuff. Both Deciper and WotC, btw, released Star Wars CCG's, Decipher's ending in 2001 and WotC's in 2005.

> These games have solid fan bases made up of people who have invested their hard-earned money, and more importantly, their time and creativity, into creating armies, squadrons, and fleets that are unique reflections of who they are.

IIRC, FFG had a 2.0 of X-Wing resulting in some fans upset that they had to buy new cards or something to that effect. At the same time, the game was releasing more and more obscure ships. You ideally don't want to be in a position where you "force your customer to rebuy all the cards", but it's very difficult to do so (and, afaik, we don't have any examples of how AMG would do better). Both WH40K and Magic, the two most popular "lifestyle" games has planned obsolescence built into their selling models.

> Will and I have talked a lot about how we can create cool new Star Wars miniatures games

I guess you guys can tell me if there's room for another SW miniatures game. Is there one? And can it be a "lifestyle" game?

*****

As for L5R LCG, found this discussion on the FFG forums. Here's one of the more extreme comments. More importantly, has this lack of announcements been made for any other FFG product line?

To me the game feels as good as dead. There is no sense that Asmodée wants to support this game anymore (I say this regardless of the internal feelings at FFG for the IP, I'm pretty sure they love what they are doing no matter what). There are no big announcements, no live streams, no teasers of anything, including deluxe expansions. We only get fiction and the expected preview for the next dynasty pack of the current cycle. The contrast with Champions and Arkham is crushingly telling. I remember distinctly early in the game during a livestream when Brad Andres previewed Shinjo Shono and said "you guys won't believe else is coming" -- I liked this kind of excitement at the time. There is absolutely no vibe of that sort anymore. They have not built hype for a very, very long time. If they have no hype to build, they have nothing to sell.

Covid cannot explain everything. My take: when they announced that they would postpone the planned rotation, I believe this meant the game already had run its course in its current incarnation. I'm pretty sure they also know internally that this current form has failed (see what Tyler has done with Skirmish). I think we'll have a 2.0 before a rotation -- or the game dies for real, in the case that Asmodée doesn't want to support competitive games anymore.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/311650-is-this-game-worth-getting-into/

Forgot to mention the Call of Cthulhu LCG as a "lifestyle" games FFG no longer supports, from 2004 to 2015. Not a bad run -- about 3x as long as WotC's Star Wars TCG...!

**Laughing Man**

Monkeysloth wrote:
Matt Swain wrote:
I'd never buy another ffg game given their history of simply dropping popular games and leaving the players with basically a "Smell ya l8r, suckers!" attitude.

I was into their 40k rpg line and it was doing well, then they just dropped it like a rock, leaving the players with a slammed door in the face.

Speakest ye not to me of "wrath and glory" lest I call upon a brother to bring me the flamer. The heavy flamer.

This one is hard as they pretty much lost the license. We really don't know if it was FFG not wanting to renew, not being able to afford or if GW killed it on their end.

That being said the 40k RPG from them had lots and lots of books. It was pretty well supported until the last year or so (probably because FFG already knew the outcome of the license) and there's not much missing from what their vision of what a 40k RPG should be (as I don't think they ever really wanted to get into playing as Xenos).

Grain of salt because I'm rando on the internet, but it was pretty much entirely from GW's side from what I've heard, similar to the loss of the Netrunner license from WotC (which, irritatingly, they still haven't done anything with). FFG was blindsided by both, and had fully expected to be renewing those licenses.

**ced1106**

Ugh! Yeah. Yet another risk of an IP game.

FFG's had the "rights" to Call of Cthulhu (CoC is in public domain, but much of what gamers consider CoC is actually from Chaosium) from Chaosium since 2004 or something.

Guess you shouldn't license an IP from a game company that has enough money to put out their own product...?

**Arbitrator**

Matt Swain wrote:
I'd never buy another ffg game given their history of simply dropping popular games and leaving the players with basically a "Smell ya l8r, suckers!" attitude.

I was into their 40k rpg line and it was doing well, then they just dropped it like a rock, leaving the players with a slammed door in the face.

Speakest ye not to me of "wrath and glory" lest I call upon a brother to bring me the flamer. The heavy flamer.

What made it worse is that really, all the 40k RPGs needed was a final splat book for Only War and a standalone Undivided book for Black Crusade rather than being awkwardly crammed into the Nurgle book.

Their Star Wars RPG line felt very much complete at least and L5R hasn't been taken out and shot just yet.

Overall though, Legion probably is safer with AMG, a dedicated wargames company headed up by former Warmahordes developers. I know I never did more than meekly dip my toe into one box of models after remembering there's always an executioner's axe hovering precariously over any FFG product.

**Azreal13**

I think the logic there is a little faulty. At this point both FFG and AMG aren't much different to Asmodee than Forge World is to GW.

Assuming that there's no Sword of Damocles hanging over any given property dependant on what logo is now printed on the packaging may result in bitter disappointment.

**Easy E**

I loved the interview with the Devs. So much corporate speak and spin! Good stuff.

As a fellow servant of Corporate America, I applaud them and their efforts.

**Monkeysloth**

ced1106 wrote:

As for L5R LCG, found this discussion on the FFG forums. Here's one of the more extreme comments. More importantly, has this lack of announcements been made for any other FFG product line?

To me the game feels as good as dead. There is no sense that Asmodée wants to support this game anymore (I say this regardless of the internal feelings at FFG for the IP, I'm pretty sure they love what they are doing no matter what). There are no big announcements, no live streams, no teasers of anything, including deluxe expansions. We only get fiction and the expected preview for the next dynasty pack of the current cycle. The contrast with Champions and Arkham is crushingly telling. I remember distinctly early in the game during a livestream when Brad Andres previewed Shinjo Shono and said "you guys won't believe else is coming" -- I liked this kind of excitement at the time. There is absolutely no vibe of that sort anymore. They have not built hype for a very, very long time. If they have no hype to build, they have nothing to sell.

Covid cannot explain everything. My take: when they announced that they would postpone the planned rotation, I believe this meant the game already had run its course in its current incarnation. I'm pretty sure they also know internally that this current form has failed (see what Tyler has done with Skirmish). I think we'll have a 2.0 before a rotation -- or the game dies for real, in the case that Asmodée doesn't want to support competitive games anymore.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/311650-is-this-game-worth-getting-into/

FFG has always been bad at communication. Add COVID on top and it's clearly worse. If this was a normal year I'd say the silence is concerning but not out of character for them. They tend to just do a big drop at one time then stop talking about a game until the next release nears. But with COVID it's hard to really say as they could have something awesome ready to go but not talking about it due to all the issues that shipping an manufacturing is having right now and people that say COVID cannot explain everything probably doesn't realize how much the lockdowns earlier in the year messed things up as lots of game companies furloughed people for a quarter and even now there's still issues with distribution being down in lots of places still and maybe not coming back and then manufacturing and shipping. Look at Modiphius and the Elder Scrolls stuff. Their card pack is months late and has been delayed twice buy about a month each time due to port changes after the ship was loaded. It could also mean everything the post you linked fears. It's really hard to know but I don't see much value in proclaiming it dead when there was a released not to long ago. Also with asmodee they keep things close to their chest before announcing its death as they tend to do so you can easily just claim any line owed by asmodee is on its death bed.

**ingtaer**

Alex Davy has confirmed that he was fired on Monday, terrible shame and a sad day for Legion.

**Grot 6**

It's De Ja Vu all over again....

You would have thought that no one remembered what happened to DUST and the 40K RPG.

**Shrapnelsmile**

Grot 6 wrote:
It's De Ja Vu all over again....

You would have thought that no one remembered what happened to DUST and the 40K RPG.

Exactly. And to a lesser extent Mutant Chronicles the Miniatures game. FFG does not have a good track record with table-top minis.

Dust 1947, which I play now, is so much better not being in the hands of FFG (and battle-front for that matter).

**Monkeysloth**

Grot 6 wrote:
It's De Ja Vu all over again....

You would have thought that no one remembered what happened to DUST

The mantic and incredibly difficult to work with creator that burned almost ever bridge possible over 10 years and tried to prevent a KSer from being delivered screwing a lot of backers?

and the 40K RPG.

The license holder, most likely, not allowing for a renewal?

Neither of those things are like this.

**chaos0xomega**

He's also apparently told his friends/industry contacts that AMG was willing to take on a couple of people from the FFG team but reluctant to do so (i.e. straight up didn't want to), which is why Luke Eddy and the literal handful of FFG designers that weren't let go will have to apply for a job with AMG instead of just being offered the opportunity.That was apparently a compromise deal struck between Simone Elliott and Will Shick, they would be allowed to apply for the positions if they wanted them but Will would be free to decide who to hire onto his staff based on who he felt would be the best fit with the studio and his and Will Pagani's vision for the future of these games.

Mind you THIS is all hearsay from unconfirmed sources, I do not have the confidence on this that I did with the news of Alex being let go.

**ced1106**

> FFG has always been bad at communication.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like a good thing. Then again, I've been backing KS and, if anything, you don't back a creator who's bad at communication.

> you can easily just claim any line owed by asmodee is on its death bed.

That actually describes Asmodee pretty well when it was buying out boardgame companies several years ago. Essentially, it would buy a company for *one* of its franchises (eg. Settlers of Cataan, Small World), then have the company drop the rest of its product lines, sometimes moving the desired IP somewhere else -- sorta like what it's doing with the SW miniatures games. In the case of FFG, this is probably for the better. I don't think anyone's gonna miss Runewars.

fwiw, Mayfair isn't FFG, but you can see how an entire Asmodee *company* ended up on its deathbed.
https://www.flipsidegaming.com/blogs/news/mayfair-games-publisher-of-settlers-of-catan-is-closing-down
https://www.polygon.com/2018/2/18/17013708/best-mayfair-games-tabletop-board-games-settlers-of-catan-star-trek
https://boardgametoday.com/mayfair-games-sees-layoffs-closed/

> The license holder, most likely, not allowing for a renewal?

While you rightfully blame the IP holder for the death of these lifestyle games, that does emphasize the risk of sinking in hundreds of dollars of such a game. Kinda annoying that you'd have to research about the IP holder when you just wanna have fun shooting things. But you have to do that even moreso with crowdfunding projects, so get used to it. Certainly boardgames already know that, if a boardgame company loses the license to a published game, they can't expect reprints of the game.

I'll give a plug, then, to Chaosium again for its licensing of its Cthulhu games to FFG for over 20 years, and FFG since it could have made their own Cthulhu games. And, afaik, FFG's boardgames don't seem to have the IP issues, nor customer discontent, that their longer-term lifestyle games have.

**Monkeysloth**

ced1106 wrote:

The license holder, most likely, not allowing for a renewal?

While you rightfully blame the IP holder for the death of these lifestyle games, that does emphasize the risk of sinking in hundreds of dollars of such a game. Kinda annoying that you'd have to research about the IP holder when you just wanna have fun shooting things. But you have to do that even moreso with crowdfunding projects, so get used to it. Certainly boardgames already know that, if a boardgame company loses the license to a published game, they can't expect reprints of the game.

I agree about the lifestyle games and one needs to be careful about them (though I don't have any issue playing dead games if the core gameplay is good enough). My own example is spending a lot in Infinity but everyone I play games with dropped it as it's just too much of a lifestyle game that needs to be constantly played to even enjoy as otherwise you spend hours looking up rules. Code one did little to address this so we just moved on. I like the figures but I don't know if it's worth keeping around $500 of stuff in my basement incase I want to use them for something else. I'm lucky as the game is still popular and there's some I could easily sell. Though the miniature community is much more likely to buy figures for dead games just to re-use elsewhere so I'm lucky there. I've never been much into CCGs but I have a friend that still play Decipher Star Trek so some of them can still be of value years after death to certain people.

That quote though was about the RPG book which really you only ever need 1-2 books from (depending on the system) to give you years of use and so there's several different conversations in this thread going on.