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So I have had my death guard since the start of 8th and to this day still love playing them. My only wish however is that with the new codex, they include many of the standard CSM options such as the daemon engines etc a bit spike they did with the likes of Blood angels etc gaining the vanilla space marine units a few years back.

Why?

Well because it would be awesome and allow me to buy more. I get that some may be thematically wrong (eg, Heldrake is arguably too fast for Death Guard) but they would make awesome options and not involve GW needing to actually do anything, just add them to a rules book (as compared to new models, designing, moulds, tooling costs etc).

I worry they might fob us off with the Heroes set and claim that to be our new release for 9th however. We’re months into 9th and they are still releasing new SM stuff so perhaps they already blew their development budget for the edition.

Even as a Black Legion player I don't really mind Death Guard, or Thousand Sons for that matter, having basically access to everything in the CSM arsenal. However, there is the argument that what drawbacks do those legions have if they have access to everything plus Cult Marines as troops and extra stuff. There certainly could more units made available to GD and TS. Then it is a matter of what. Unfortunately, I don't think regular Chaos Space Marines would ever make the cut since the separated legions already have a nice, at least compared to other CSM, selection of Troop options.

As much I as wouldn't relish buying a codex and supplement, I would have preferred GW went the same route as loyalist space marines with a main codex and legion supplement. With the Death Guard codex being a codex, it doesn't look like that will be the case this edition. Which is also fine by me saving me from buying an extra book. Codex: Chaos Space Marines already gets called the Black Legion codex anyways. It doesn't really help the other legions lumped in there though.

I suppose the best that can be hoped for is a C:CSM that has a nice selection of Legion/Warband Tactics like loyalist Chapter Tactics. With that, a player could build a Nurgle-focused CSM warband that complements the Death Guard and ally in a Death Guard detachment of the units C:CSM absolutely don't have or vice versa. Unfortunately, outside Open Play games I don't see a future where the OP gets all the unit options they want for a pure Death Guard army anymore.

I thought the same as you when I started DG but now I have changed my mind. I see DG as an independent faction of chaos. I see them like admech who had a similar problem of limited model line and now they've got loads of new stuff. I would rather we get new models with proper Nurgle treatment.

I think new models is very likely too as the FW compendium hints at a new keyword. We know we are getting the new lord of virulence model so I would hope for another daemon engine and some kind of infantry based heavy support unit.

Right now the PBC's and haulers and drones were enough of a difference that it feels better to wait for new stuff than rely on old stuff.

I'd favor this with some cavets, some of the CSM stuff should defiantly remain with the death guard. (havoks for instance) others however are IMHO not really terriably well suited. bikers and raptors for example don't strike me as terriably well suited to the death guard. some stuff though makes no sense, things like predators etc. no reason for the death guard not to have them

To be honest, as somebody who plays both DG & vanilla CSM, I'd much rather keep them separate. Keeps the two thematically distinct and more equivalents (e.g. DG Havocs) can be added in to the DG book over time.

I can see an argument for some level of cross over but I think it would only be where their routes go back to the original legions. My understanding is that mortarian has kept the death guard as a self contained army seperate from abbadon and the other legions. So over 10k years with focused support of pappa nurgle then it doesn’t surprise me that they are very different.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd favor this with some cavets, some of the CSM stuff should defiantly remain with the death guard. (havoks for instance) others however are IMHO not really terriably well suited. bikers and raptors for example don't strike me as terriably well suited to the death guard. some stuff though makes no sense, things like predators etc. no reason for the death guard not to have them

Isn't Morty meant to disapprove on man-portably heavy weapons, for some reason? I could see a Havok-esque unit where everyone (possibly except the Champion) has a special weapon, though, as a Death Guard alternative.

There are some core CSM kits I could see the DG being given access to, though in at least one case it'd be easier if they had a wider release than Shadowspear and a Start Collecting. Looking at the kits on the GW site - and not having a copy of the core CSM 'dex to cross-reference to - I'd certainly consider the following:
- Greater Possessed
- Master of Possession (maybe? DG book notes that warbands of DG Possessed are rare, so I'm unsure on this one)
- Venomcrawler (possibly - I know venom isn't the same as disease/virus, but it feels like you could argue for a connection here)
- Dark Apostle (though I'd prefer to weld this prayer mechanic onto the Tallyman, honestly, and maybe boost him to an HQ slot)
- Chaos Vindicator
- Warpsmith (or a Death Guard version thereof)
- Obliterator and Mutilator (possibly - I vaguely remember something about Morty being involved with the Oblit virus, but this might be more of an IW thing)

Getting some things from CSM which make sense lore-wise, like Masters of Possessions or Venom Crawlers, sure.

But all of CSM? You would lose the closely interlocking mechanics the army currently has with plague weapons, daemon engines and expensive but durable units.
You would essentially just be playing the wretched.

 Dysartes wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd favor this with some cavets, some of the CSM stuff should defiantly remain with the death guard. (havoks for instance) others however are IMHO not really terriably well suited. bikers and raptors for example don't strike me as terriably well suited to the death guard. some stuff though makes no sense, things like predators etc. no reason for the death guard not to have them

Isn't Morty meant to disapprove on man-portably heavy weapons, for some reason? I could see a Havok-esque unit where everyone (possibly except the Champion) has a special weapon, though, as a Death Guard alternative.

That was just a weird restriction with no precedent put in place in the 3.5 codex. In the DG 30k HH list for example, they have Havocs/Heavy Support marines as normal, although it is noted in Betrayal's lore that they rely on bolters/meltas/flamers as "the trinity of weapons around which their wargear was based, keeping supply needs to a minimum".

The issue with doing a Havoc-esque unit of Plague Marines based around special weapons is that it then makes Plague Marines redundant as they're primarily already taken as a special weapons platform. Nothing stopping them from making up new weapons though I guess

edit: although, I suppose doing Havocs in that way would just allow them to make a new unit without having to release a kit? Which could be a pro

Why not expand the chemical warfare theme and allow DG havocs some time of chemical or bio weapon?

 Dysartes wrote:
Isn't Morty meant to disapprove on man-portably heavy weapons, for some reason?

Mortarion sees his troops as expendable, but heavy weaponry as essential to break enemy fortifications. Essentially, his tactics (both before and after the heresy) resemble WW1 trench warfare, marines are thrown into the grinder while long-range artillery and bio-weapon bombardments take out enemy positions.
This is described quite well in the novel about the battle on Istvan III where the death guard simply march towards the main gates of Coral City and its entrenched positions, taking out each bunker one after another by entering the trenches, killing everyone inside with flamers, bolters and close combat weapons and then chucking a grenade into the bunker. The only heavy weaponry mentioned at all were those carried by a dread and the supporting titan legion.

I could see a Havok-esque unit where everyone (possibly except the Champion) has a special weapon, though, as a Death Guard alternative.

That doesn't sound bad, but plague marines already get 3 special weapons. A havoc unit wouldn't be too different from them. Four blight launchers in one unit would be sweet though.

- Master of Possession (maybe? DG book notes that warbands of DG Possessed are rare, so I'm unsure on this one)

According to the fluff, master of possessions are experts at possessing daemon engines and are striving to get their own dark manufactorum. The plague planet happens to be littered with exactly those, as DG are the only legion that still has a homeworld that's not a smoldering rock or less.

- Warpsmith (or a Death Guard version thereof)

I remember reading that Warpsmiths aren't too happy to work for the Death Guard, as all their creations rot away or turn to flesh - and Nurgle isn't known for his innovation.

Otherwise, I very much agree with your entire post.
But even then, all these would be just nice to haves, DG are already a very functional army despite their rather small range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
edit: although, I suppose doing Havocs in that way would just allow them to make a new unit without having to release a kit? Which could be a pro

There is just two sculpts per special weapon though, and the second plasma and blight launcher both went the way of the dodo.

Without a new kit, GW's codex picture for this unit would look rather silly.

I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.

Yeah, havocs are terrible in terms of kitbashing and poseability and termies are only a little better. I guess this is the price to pay for more detailed models

 Conservative Heretic wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.

Yeah, havocs are terrible in terms of kitbashing and poseability and termies are only a little better. I guess this is the price to pay for more detailed models

oh i was talking purely about the loadout. The havoc kit having only 1 of each heavy weapons and the terminator kit not having enough chain axes specifically.

Of course all poseability and kitbash-ability is a lot worse than older kits now. Still doable but it requires a lot more work.

CSM in general need a whole redesign.

 Jidmah wrote:
Without a new kit, GW's codex picture for this unit would look rather silly.

Hasn't stopped them in the past.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
CSM in general need a whole redesign.

not really... the concept of CSM works, it just needs to be refined.
Add legion-specific units/options so that you can differentiate between Chaos corrupted/Fresh renegades/Old renegades and the codex would be fine.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd favor this with some cavets, some of the CSM stuff should defiantly remain with the death guard. (havoks for instance) others however are IMHO not really terriably well suited. bikers and raptors for example don't strike me as terriably well suited to the death guard. some stuff though makes no sense, things like predators etc. no reason for the death guard not to have them

Isn't Morty meant to disapprove on man-portably heavy weapons, for some reason? I could see a Havok-esque unit where everyone (possibly except the Champion) has a special weapon, though, as a Death Guard alternative.

That was just a weird restriction with no precedent put in place in the 3.5 codex. In the DG 30k HH list for example, they have Havocs/Heavy Support marines as normal, although it is noted in Betrayal's lore that they rely on bolters/meltas/flamers as "the trinity of weapons around which their wargear was based, keeping supply needs to a minimum".

That has been part of the DG lore since 2nd ed. It's been there since the start. The restriction was put in place in their IA article, well before the 3.5 codex.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd favor this with some cavets, some of the CSM stuff should defiantly remain with the death guard. (havoks for instance) others however are IMHO not really terriably well suited. bikers and raptors for example don't strike me as terriably well suited to the death guard. some stuff though makes no sense, things like predators etc. no reason for the death guard not to have them

Isn't Morty meant to disapprove on man-portably heavy weapons, for some reason? I could see a Havok-esque unit where everyone (possibly except the Champion) has a special weapon, though, as a Death Guard alternative.

That was just a weird restriction with no precedent put in place in the 3.5 codex. In the DG 30k HH list for example, they have Havocs/Heavy Support marines as normal, although it is noted in Betrayal's lore that they rely on bolters/meltas/flamers as "the trinity of weapons around which their wargear was based, keeping supply needs to a minimum".

That has been part of the DG lore since 2nd ed. It's been there since the start. The restriction was put in place in their IA article, well before the 3.5 codex.

yeah, DG has always basically been : tough guys that use biological weapons and no heavy weapons on their infantry.

The entirety of 8th edition and 9th edotion:

Here you go loyalists you have been separated for years but now you all get access to all the loyalist SM stuff.

Here you go DG and 1Ksons! You finally have your own codex! What you want to keep the models you used to have access to and spent hundreds of $$ and hours converting/painting? Well thats just too fething bad heretic scum. You don't get nice things because your only job is to be an npc faction so loyalists have something to beat on. Now leave me alone pleb I have another primaris release to work on.

FWIW Death Guard used to have Havocs. GW sold a pewter Death Guard Havocs set equipped entirely with meltaguns and plasma guns, no heavy weapons allowed.

 catbarf wrote:
FWIW Death Guard used to have Havocs. GW sold a pewter Death Guard Havocs set equipped entirely with meltaguns and plasma guns, no heavy weapons allowed.

wich is in line with the fluff, no heavy weapons.

I'll have to check up on the 2nd ed lore, which I don't remember at all, although I had forgotten about IA. In any case, in 30k they have a Rite of War where one of the primary benefits is a set of bonuses applied to missile launcher equipped HS units, and the entire Legion has no restrictions on using heavy weapons. Providing it fit in with the theme I'd have no issue with DG receiving a heavy weapons squad in 40k. Phosphex missiles & the like would be cool and gives options beyond just spamming special weapons, which - as above - doesn't offer much differentiation between a DG havoc unit & plague marines.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
I'll have to check up on the 2nd ed lore, which I don't remember at all, although I had forgotten about IA. In any case, in 30k they have a Rite of War where one of the primary benefits is a set of bonuses applied to missile launcher equipped HS units, and the entire Legion has no restrictions on using heavy weapons. Providing it fit in with the theme I'd have no issue with DG receiving a heavy weapons squad in 40k. Phosphex missiles & the like would be cool and gives options beyond just spamming special weapons, which - as above - doesn't offer much differentiation between a DG havoc unit & plague marines.

Its the same difference between a tactical squad and a squad of devastator, or between CSM and Havocs.

Tacticals/CSM/Plagues get less slots for their non bolter weapons, Devastators/Havocs/theoretical DG havocs would get max slots for their non bolter weapons.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
I'll have to check up on the 2nd ed lore, which I don't remember at all, although I had forgotten about IA. In any case, in 30k they have a Rite of War where one of the primary benefits is a set of bonuses applied to missile launcher equipped HS units, and the entire Legion has no restrictions on using heavy weapons. Providing it fit in with the theme I'd have no issue with DG receiving a heavy weapons squad in 40k. Phosphex missiles & the like would be cool and gives options beyond just spamming special weapons, which - as above - doesn't offer much differentiation between a DG havoc unit & plague marines.

Its the same difference between a tactical squad and a squad of devastator, or between CSM and Havocs.

Tacticals/CSM/Plagues get less slots for their non bolter weapons, Devastators/Havocs/theoretical DG havocs would get max slots for their non bolter weapons.

No, there's an obvious difference in usage & restrictions. Plague Marines are already primarily taken as a special weapons platform, often in squads of 5, where they can use e.g. 3x plasma. Vanilla CSM & Tacticals are not taken as a primary source of heavy/special weapons because you need a certain squad size to take more than 1, and we've seen GW in the CSM book move to further separate Havocs from normal CSM with a better statline and rules for the usage of heavy weapons. Offering DG Havocs weapon options not usable by normal Plague Marines would be far more interesting than just throwing Plague Marines into a HS slot and offering them at most 1-2 extra special weapons in exchange for obsec. I'd agree if it wasn't for the fact that there would be far less difference between your idea of Plague Marines & DG Havocs than there currently is between e.g. CSM & CSM Havocs.

edit x2: typing in phone is bad

There's no reason why the Death Guard shouldn't have access to greater possessed, since they already have regular possessed? Also, can you imagine how dangerous obliterators with disgusting resilience could be?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why the Death Guard shouldn't have access to greater possessed, since they already have regular possessed? Also, can you imagine how dangerous obliterators with disgusting resilience could be?

They wouldnt get DR, its not the legion trait.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why the Death Guard shouldn't have access to greater possessed, since they already have regular possessed? Also, can you imagine how dangerous obliterators with disgusting resilience could be?

Well clearly based on design of the codex GW doesn't think all Death Guard should have a FNP equivalent. So why is that an issue?

And no, saying "there's a Strat!!!!!!1!" does nothing to help that case.

Getting some things from CSM which make sense lore-wise, like Masters of Possessions or Venom Crawlers, sure.

But all of CSM? You would lose the closely interlocking mechanics the army currently has with plague weapons, daemon engines and expensive but durable units.
You would essentially just be playing the wretched.

Yeah. There are definitely certain things they SHOULD have. Greater Possessed are a good example, and you would think Masters of Possesion would be a shoe-in for an army with so many Demon Engines. Other things, like Havocs and Bikers? not so much. On the one hand, bikers never made much sense to me for a DG army, and you have Mortarion himself saying he thinks heavy weapons should be on vehicles and essentially doesn't believe in things like Havocs.

Tycho wrote:

Getting some things from CSM which make sense lore-wise, like Masters of Possessions or Venom Crawlers, sure.

But all of CSM? You would lose the closely interlocking mechanics the army currently has with plague weapons, daemon engines and expensive but durable units.
You would essentially just be playing the wretched.

Yeah. There are definitely certain things they SHOULD have. Greater Possessed are a good example, and you would think Masters of Possesion would be a shoe-in for an army with so many Demon Engines. Other things, like Havocs and Bikers? not so much. On the one hand, bikers never made much sense to me for a DG army, and you have Mortarion himself saying he thinks heavy weapons should be on vehicles and essentially doesn't believe in things like Havocs.

Nevertheless they were still used, so why is the artificial restriction all the sudden important?