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Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
For shooting a vehicle normally, this is correct. If the arc you are in is blocked though, you can shoot any arc you can see. The exhaust pipe is part of the rear arc, as is the eldar turret in your example.


If you're in front of the tank and can see the front of the pipe (or the turret) then you can see the front arc of the tank.


If that were the case, what would have been the point of the 3+ rule? It clearly assumed that you can see facings others than the one you are in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/02 14:23:35


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Jidmah wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
For shooting a vehicle normally, this is correct. If the arc you are in is blocked though, you can shoot any arc you can see. The exhaust pipe is part of the rear arc, as is the eldar turret in your example.


If you're in front of the tank and can see the front of the pipe (or the turret) then you can see the front arc of the tank.


If that were the case, what would have been the point of the 3+ rule? It clearly assumed that you can see facings others than the one you are in.


Well, look at the example they provide. The Fire Dragons aren't looking at sticky uppy bits - they're looking straight at the side armor of the tank. However, they're standing in the front. So a situation where your battlewagon (or wave serpent) was behind a 50" high wall, but tilted slightly to one side so that someone could see the side sticking out from behind it. Not where your battlewagon (or wave serpent) was behind a 4" high wall but the enemy could see the turret so they shot your rear armor. That's just silly.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I never said it wasn't. But that's what the rules said

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Jidmah wrote:
I never said it wasn't. But that's what the rules said


I don't agree with your interpretation, and I think it's pretty clear why. In the case where you can see multiple areas of the tank that are sticking up (e.g. turret and exhaust pipe, like a close-topped turreted BW), who gets to pick which one is shot?
Hint: it doesn't matter, because if they can see the front of the tank, they can see the front of the tank - even if its the turret, which may be mounted off to one side or slightly to the rear or some other weird thing.

I mean heck, look at the front of this battlewagon:
Spoiler:

Would you claim that a model shooting that forward shoota turret is hitting the side armor (if the front of the tank up to the turret was covered by a wall) just because it's mounted to the side?

This is what irks me about armor facing discussions. People are like "they're bad and started arguments!" - well, clearly, if you are trying to start an argument. It's like me claiming the color of the sky is controversial just because I am willing to argue that it's red.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/12/02 14:42:09


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

 Jidmah wrote:
I never said it wasn't. But that's what the rules said


Your group doesn't sound it like it would have been a lot of fun to play against in previous editions, because those are some really... interesting... interpretations of the rules for armor facings. And sure, you can shout about "that's what they intended because that's how it's written!" as much as you want, and I'll still disagree with you.

For what it's worth, I still much prefer armor facings vs the current rules, wherein my Battlewagon can shoot an enemy Leman Russ if I can draw a straight line between, say, the previously mentioned rear exhaust, and a single link of track on the rear of the Leman Russ even if no other parts of either vehicle are visible to each other. You want to get silly with rules? That's some silly rules writing.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Mr. Grey wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I never said it wasn't. But that's what the rules said


Your group doesn't sound it like it would have been a lot of fun to play against in previous editions, because those are some really... interesting... interpretations of the rules for armor facings. And sure, you can shout about "that's what they intended because that's how it's written!" as much as you want, and I'll still disagree with you.

"Well, your group sucked" is just the same as your group agreeing that GW's rules were so bad that you had to house-rule them.
And as pointed out, my group was essentially two groups and five stores in cities in this area.

For what it's worth, I still much prefer armor facings vs the current rules, wherein my Battlewagon can shoot an enemy Leman Russ if I can draw a straight line between, say, the previously mentioned rear exhaust, and a single link of track on the rear of the Leman Russ even if no other parts of either vehicle are visible to each other. You want to get silly with rules? That's some silly rules writing.

This was possible in 5th as well. Open topped allowed passengers could track LoS from any part of the hull, exhausts were hull, as were tracks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/02 15:14:50


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in at
Not as Good as a Minion





Austria

 Jidmah wrote:
I never said it wasn't. But that's what the rules said

well this came never up in 5th for me, not in the club nor at tournaments and I know no one who read the rules that way

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I never said it wasn't. But that's what the rules said


I don't agree with your interpretation, and I think it's pretty clear why. In the case where you can see multiple areas of the tank that are sticking up (e.g. turret and exhaust pipe, like a close-topped turreted BW), who gets to pick which one is shot?
Hint: it doesn't matter, because if they can see the front of the tank, they can see the front of the tank - even if its the turret, which may be mounted off to one side or slightly to the rear or some other weird thing.


This is the official diagram in 5th edition's ruleset:

According to that picture, anything in the triangle that says "rear armor" is rear armor. If I can see any part of the hull in that triangle and no part of the hull in the "front armor" triangle, I can shoot rear armor from the front. Unlikely for a LRBT, but GW clearly didn't think about xenos vehicles at the time of writing that.

This is my battlewagon I played in 5th edition (you can tell from the boarding planks), with a random turret because I can't find its original one:
Spoiler:


Those three pictures (and more) are just a couple of valid interpretations for the firing arks. If I gave this picture to 50 dakkanauts, I'd bet I'd have dozens of different firing arcs drawn in.

This is what irks me about armor facing discussions. People are like "they're bad and started arguments!" - well, clearly, if you are trying to start an argument. It's like me claiming the color of the sky is controversial just because I am willing to argue that it's red.

You must have missed the part where I was the one playing those battlewagons. These were arguments players started while playing me. My 5th edition codex still has a list with 20+ questions written in its cover, which I had to clarify before every game, just to prevent the avoidable arguments. My main stake in this mess was not having arguments, no more, no less.
It also clearly is starting an argument between us right now, and if that isn't evidence enough, I don't know what is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kodos wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I never said it wasn't. But that's what the rules said

well this came never up in 5th for me, not in the club nor at tournaments and I know no one who read the rules that way

I know two playing groups and five stores who did read it that way. YMDC did as well.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/02 15:40:40


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






FWIW, I would never interpret that Arc diagram to be about what physical parts of the vehicle fall within what arc. That diagram is an overlay showing facing and what zone a shooting model falls within.

My mind is blown that anyone would interpret that diagram in the manner you are.

EDIT:

What we've also done, is that I have a 360-degree protractor. Line it up turned 45-degrees to the orientation of the vehicle. You'll get nice 90-degree arcs for each facing.

Heck, IIRC you can even use the old translucent blast template markers to do the same thing. Of course the game doesn't have those anymore either!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/02 15:46:03


Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

Err... I think we can leave rules questions from 4 editions ago to the you make da call board?

Really nothing to do with the OP.
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

Well the thread was immediately derailed by the "9th sucks, play 5th" crowd.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/02 15:48:27


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Tyran wrote:
Well the thread was immediately derailed by the "9th sucks, play 5th" crowd.
TBH a 5th edition with the abuses fixed would be great.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 Tyran wrote:
Well the thread was immediately derailed by the "9th sucks, play 5th" crowd.


Well... since we're doing a lot of creative interpretation, I think the OP's question could be interpreted as whether or not 9th is any good "relative to X" Relative to the 7th edition they are somewhat familiar with? Relative to older editions? Even a simple list of pro's and con's is going to be relative to something else, whether an older version of 40K or a totally different game.

FWIW, I think earlier comments did a decent job of summarizing the pro's and con's of 9th.


Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

 SolarCross wrote:
I am getting back into 40k, so is 9th ed any good?

I first jumped in when 7th ed was current but didn't quite get to the point of actually gaming when 7th was upstaged by 8th. I was nonplussed about buying more books so I sort of lost interest a bit since. So now 9th has been out for a bit I am torn between trying to make some use of my old 7th ed books by playing some retro hammer or getting down with what is hip with the kids now, that being 9th.


Due to the Pandemic, I have not played a single game of 9th ed yet. It's 8th ed with a few tweaks that really affect army building, and I did enjoy 8th. I see no reason why I wouldn't like 9th.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

 Mezmorki wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Well the thread was immediately derailed by the "9th sucks, play 5th" crowd.


Well... since we're doing a lot of creative interpretation, I think the OP's question could be interpreted as whether or not 9th is any good "relative to X" Relative to the 7th edition they are somewhat familiar with? Relative to older editions? Even a simple list of pro's and con's is going to be relative to something else, whether an older version of 40K or a totally different game.

FWIW, I think earlier comments did a decent job of summarizing the pro's and con's of 9th.



On the other hand, if they wanted to play 5th, they would be playing 5th. They should already be familiar with it and thus not need you to sell it to them.

Moreover, "relative to X" is not helpful if X is also up to interpretation, because then you are not only debating about 9th or 9th compared to X, but also about X.
   
Made in fr
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






Are 9th ediiton dakka threads any more derailed than previous edition threads ? Now that would be one hella' philosophical topic

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in at
Not as Good as a Minion





Austria

 Jidmah wrote:

I know two playing groups and five stores who did read it that way. YMDC did as well.

know 3 clubs several tournaments were internet arguments were not a thing

there were discussions with the Eldar Skimmers because of the round front, yet a rectangular sheet of paper solved that issue very fast

but the DeffRoller was never an argument on any event or club game and if it was with your stores/groups I guess they tried to play a pure non-house ruled version of the game wer such arguments had a chance to be talked about

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Tyran wrote:
On the other hand, if they wanted to play 5th, they would be playing 5th.


Only if they could find opponents, which is nontrivial and takes a bit more effort than just "coming back to 40k."
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Only if they could find opponents, which is nontrivial and takes a bit more effort than just "coming back to 40k."

That is more an argument for not trying to sell them 5th. I mean, either they can find 5th edition games, thus they don't need this thread to sell them 5th, or they cannot, thus it doesn't matter how much this thread tries to sell them 5th.

Either way, trying to sell them 5th is not only derailing a thread that is asking about 9th, but also that is not needed and arguably irrelevant.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/02 16:40:50


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut







...you did notice the OP taking part in the discussion of older editions earlier in the thread, right?

This discussion is not as OT as you seem to want to make it, Tyran.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

 Dysartes wrote:
...you did notice the OP taking part in the discussion of older editions earlier in the thread, right?

This discussion is not as OT as you seem to want to make it, Tyran.

At the very least, all this talk about facings and how they were interpreted is OT.

That is You Make Da Call sub-forum material.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Tyran wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
...you did notice the OP taking part in the discussion of older editions earlier in the thread, right?

This discussion is not as OT as you seem to want to make it, Tyran.

At the very least, all this talk about facings and how they were interpreted is OT.

That is You Make Da Call sub-forum material.


The thread asked "is 9th any good?" and people started popping up to say "no, play older editions, they're better," and then some folks who like 9th started challenging that assertion based on an argument about vehicle facings. I think "is 5th actually easier to play than 9th?" is a valid area of inquiry for a thread about whether 9th is any good.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

 AnomanderRake wrote:

The thread asked "is 9th any good?" and people started popping up to say "no, play older editions, they're better," and then some folks who like 9th started challenging that assertion based on an argument about vehicle facings. I think "is 5th actually easier to play than 9th?" is a valid area of inquiry for a thread about whether 9th is any good.


Perhaps, but getting into an interpretation debate about 5th edition rules is outside that area, because then the thread is no longer about 9th edition at all.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut







*sigh*

If you think something is that OT, I draw your attention to the little yellow triangle of doom...

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon






Herefordshire

 Tyran wrote:

Either way, trying to sell them 5th is not only derailing a thread that is asking about 9th, but also that is not needed and arguably irrelevant.


I asked about 9th but as I say in the OP that question is in the context of deciding which edition to focus on. I am open to being sold on 5th. If I go with an older edition it would probably be 7th but there is no harm in hearing more about 5th.
   
Made in nl
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

 Mr. Grey wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I never said it wasn't. But that's what the rules said


Your group doesn't sound it like it would have been a lot of fun to play against in previous editions, because those are some really... interesting... interpretations of the rules for armor facings. And sure, you can shout about "that's what they intended because that's how it's written!" as much as you want, and I'll still disagree with you.

For what it's worth, I still much prefer armor facings vs the current rules, wherein my Battlewagon can shoot an enemy Leman Russ if I can draw a straight line between, say, the previously mentioned rear exhaust, and a single link of track on the rear of the Leman Russ even if no other parts of either vehicle are visible to each other. You want to get silly with rules? That's some silly rules writing.


Exalted.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SolarCross wrote:
 Tyran wrote:

Either way, trying to sell them 5th is not only derailing a thread that is asking about 9th, but also that is not needed and arguably irrelevant.


I asked about 9th but as I say in the OP that question is in the context of deciding which edition to focus on. I am open to being sold on 5th. If I go with an older edition it would probably be 7th but there is no harm in hearing more about 5th.


I might recommend looking at the history and it’s development. With eBay and a hundred dollars, you could probably own the most important books for most, depending on how many armies you are collecting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/02 20:40:02


   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon






Herefordshire

 jeff white wrote:

I might recommend looking at the history and it’s development. With eBay and a hundred dollars, you could probably own the most important books for most, depending on how many armies you are collecting.


Actually I have a side hustle dealing in old warhammer books, so at any given time I already have a ton of the older books to look at. Affording the time to actually read them is another matter, but I have a lot physically at hand already.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/02 20:44:54


 
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

 SolarCross wrote:
 Tyran wrote:

Either way, trying to sell them 5th is not only derailing a thread that is asking about 9th, but also that is not needed and arguably irrelevant.


I asked about 9th but as I say in the OP that question is in the context of deciding which edition to focus on. I am open to being sold on 5th. If I go with an older edition it would probably be 7th but there is no harm in hearing more about 5th.

Fair enough.

But now that I have your attention, do you have an idea of the state of 40k gaming on your community?

If it is big, small, what editions they play, if it is centralized on a store or it is spread across multiple ones, do they play a lot in garages and/or houses, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/02 21:16:11


 
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon






Herefordshire

 Tyran wrote:
 SolarCross wrote:
 Tyran wrote:

Either way, trying to sell them 5th is not only derailing a thread that is asking about 9th, but also that is not needed and arguably irrelevant.


I asked about 9th but as I say in the OP that question is in the context of deciding which edition to focus on. I am open to being sold on 5th. If I go with an older edition it would probably be 7th but there is no harm in hearing more about 5th.

Fair enough.

But now that I have your attention, do you have an idea of the state of 40k gaming on your community?

If it is big, small, what editions they play, if it is centralized on a store or it is spread across multiple ones, do they play a lot in garages and/or houses, etc.

Not much of an idea yet. There is a store at the second nearest town to me, so presumably 9th and Kill Team will be a doddle for games there. Although I don't really want to play there. I emailed the only club that I know of in the county asking after what they play, specifically asking if 7th was on the menu still. The reply was that they played a lot of horus heresy, but they have gone quiet since then. I am not interested in HH because it is just marines fighting marines and I am filthy xeno.

I could play at home because I have a bit of space but I am in very rural location so it might be a pain for other players to find me. I have a wife and son I would like recruit into the hobby but so far they are not really interested.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/02 21:25:47


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






One thing I will say is that the rules for 9th (and 8th) edition are much more concisely and precisely written. Overall, this means reading the core rules is significantly faster and easier to understand. And rule disputes/questions appear to be a bit less as far as the core rules are concerned.

What's interesting, is that I don't think that older editions couldn't have been more concise too. There was a lot of fluff and preamble setting up the justification for why rules were written as they were, which added a lot of extraneous information to wade through.

The next evolution of ProHammer to properly re-write the rules in style of 9th edition, and I suspect it wouldn't be too much longer than the 9th edition rules when I'm done.


Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
 
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