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 Mr. Burning wrote:

Baal, and therefore the Blood Angels were on the verge of extinction.

Honestly nearly killing off the Blood Angels has happened a few too many times for it to have weight anymore. Space Hulk did it, the James Swallow Blood Angels trilogy did it, and they did it more than once with the Nids to boot.

At least War of the Beast actually pulled the trigger and actually killed off the original Imperial Fists.

I get that GW doesn't like killing off the first founding chapters but honestly the "almost wiped out" thing for BA needs to be dropped because it's lost all impact.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
[quote=Mr. Burning 794264 10996200 5f5eadd24a8bc78a24ee82ce8074a7ae.jpg
Baal, and therefore the Blood Angels were on the verge of extinction.

Honestly nearly killing off the Blood Angels has happened a few too many times for it to have weight anymore. Space Hulk did it, the James Swallow Blood Angels trilogy did it, and they did it more than once with the Nids to boot.

At least War of the Beast actually pulled the trigger and actually killed off the original Imperial Fists.

I get that GW doesn't like killing off the first founding chapters but honestly the "almost wiped out" thing for BA needs to be dropped because it's lost all impact.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Baal, and therefore the Blood Angels were on the verge of extinction.

Honestly nearly killing off the Blood Angels has happened a few too many times for it to have weight anymore. Space Hulk did it, the James Swallow Blood Angels trilogy did it, and they did it more than once with the Nids to boot.

At least War of the Beast actually pulled the trigger and actually killed off the original Imperial Fists.

I get that GW doesn't like killing off the first founding chapters but honestly the "almost wiped out" thing for BA needs to be dropped because it's lost all impact.

I agree wholeheartedly. Expect it to continue with all popular chapters as GW need Primaris to replace previous marine iterations sales wise.

Hive Fleet Cupid will arrive from ABOVE! the galactic plane and bear down on the Rock, The combined might of the Dark Angels and successor chapters will prevail...but at what cost?!!!
The Alexis Dynasty will awaken from their slumber, from right underneath Nocturne no less!!!! A bitter battle for the fate of the Salamanders (and their successors) and the galaxy BEYOND!!! AND HUMANITY!!!

I'm going to submit these ideas to GW, I'll expect these ideas to pad out upcoming campaign books. You can thank me later.

If anyone is going to get Tomb World'd I expect it to be the White Scars after that fluff bit in 5th about a Tomb Ship firing on an empty part of the planet several times.

Insert chapter name here in the almost wiped out but not story generator.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Insert chapter name here in the almost wiped out but not story generator.

Space Marine chapters get wiped out all the time, except they're just no name successor chapters they made up for a paragraph of fluff text in a xenos book. Preferably they wipe out a Sisters convent but if they've done that already on the page the writers are at least competent enough to not repeat it.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Insert chapter name here in the almost wiped out but not story generator.

Space Marine chapters get wiped out all the time, except they're just no name successor chapters they made up for a paragraph of fluff text in a xenos book. Preferably they wipe out a Sisters convent but if they've done that already on the page the writers are at least competent enough to not repeat it.

Wiping out a cannon fodder chapter makes xenos threats very meh. Makes them like guard.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Insert chapter name here in the almost wiped out but not story generator.

Space Marine chapters get wiped out all the time, except they're just no name successor chapters they made up for a paragraph of fluff text in a xenos book. Preferably they wipe out a Sisters convent but if they've done that already on the page the writers are at least competent enough to not repeat it.

Wiping out a cannon fodder chapter makes xenos threats very meh. Makes them like guard.

Sanctuary 101 did that to establish the Crons by wiping out the Sisters, and in 2nd a convent of Sisters was wiped out holding the line against a Tyranid hive fleet just so the last escape ships could launch with civilians (though Canoness Praxedes did kill a Hive Tyrant in single combat, and for a time the lore claimed there were legends that the convent was still fighting the hive fleet from inside because no one actually saw them fall to the swarm, so that might be a tie).

Hecaton wrote:Something I remember reading from recent fluff in the Kill Team: Rogue Trader boxed set - only 1 in 1000 of mutants detected by the Imperium is allowed to live. It's not clear if that includes Psykers, but it definitely includes Beastmen, which are fielded in armies, so that means that if a child is born intersex or with a cleft palette or something, they're just killed by the Imperium.

We really need some stories of Saint Celestine or Guilliman casually purging some unfortunate kids in a warzone they're moving through to reinforce the idea that these are not good people, they should only be rooted for ironically.

In a galaxy of beastmen, Ogryn, and Psychers, I don't think minor corrective things like that count as "mutants".

That being said, this is the Imperium of Man, so who knows

 Overread wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


Yeah, 40k is a lot less like Dune these days. Hoping it ends up more like Lexx and less like Red Dwarf.

I thought it would have shifted more by now, honestly.

Lexx? Surely that's what Raging Heroes are all about, at least miniature wise.

Somehow I can't see GW's lore ever getting close to Lexx in terms of sexual themes and such. In fact they generally leave it well alone.

I was more thinking about his Dark Majesty, the authoritarian regime, the giant ships, the assassins, and the like.

The backdrop was always more interesting than the hijinks of the crew.

"Grimdark" started, need I remind you, as a joke term for bad writing.

I feel like 40k is less grimdark than it was in 6th-7th, but only because the writing has gotten more noblebright. We're focusing less on how bad it is to live in this fascist dictatorship and more on the individual actors of it. And, of course, how great they are for being able to kill stuff well. What does that make them as human beings? Still empty, hollow killers.

I appreciated the Marneus Calgar comic, at least what's out, for pointing the obvious. Yeah, it sucks to live in Ultramar, because at the end of the day, Ultramar is still a fascist state. You're more likely to be a slave laborer than you are to be an Ultramarine.

The 30k Imperium at least has a higher cause to appeal to: the unity of humanity. It had artists, people who could record history and create. What does the 40k Imperium have? Survival is its only virtue. People live and die quickly as a matter of fact.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
"Grimdark" started, need I remind you, as a joke term for bad writing.

I’m unaware of “grimdark” originating as a term for bad writing. Rather it is a term used specifically in reference to the 40K tag line: “ In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimdark

 alextroy wrote:

Hecaton wrote:Something I remember reading from recent fluff in the Kill Team: Rogue Trader boxed set - only 1 in 1000 of mutants detected by the Imperium is allowed to live. It's not clear if that includes Psykers, but it definitely includes Beastmen, which are fielded in armies, so that means that if a child is born intersex or with a cleft palette or something, they're just killed by the Imperium.

We really need some stories of Saint Celestine or Guilliman casually purging some unfortunate kids in a warzone they're moving through to reinforce the idea that these are not good people, they should only be rooted for ironically.

In a galaxy of beastmen, Ogryn, and Psychers, I don't think minor corrective things like that count as "mutants".

That being said, this is the Imperium of Man, so who knows

Well, really it means "deformities." Since for something to be a mutation it has to be reflected in the genetic code.

Let's not forget that mutations aren't that uncommon in the setting thanks to a lot of factors. Hive cities basically have whole slum districts of them.

I mean, sure they're a small percentage of humanity, but we're talking about quintillions of Imperial citizens. Heck, most hive cities have a higher population than Earth currently does.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Let's not forget that mutations aren't that uncommon in the setting thanks to a lot of factors. Hive cities basically have whole slum districts of them.

I mean, sure they're a small percentage of humanity, but we're talking about quintillions of Imperial citizens. Heck, most hive cities have a higher population than Earth currently does.

Mutation is in the eye of the fanatic. If you have a weird birthmark anyone who is particularly zealous might accuse you of being a mutant.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Let's not forget that mutations aren't that uncommon in the setting thanks to a lot of factors. Hive cities basically have whole slum districts of them.

I mean, sure they're a small percentage of humanity, but we're talking about quintillions of Imperial citizens. Heck, most hive cities have a higher population than Earth currently does.

Mutation is in the eye of the fanatic. If you have a weird birthmark anyone who is particularly zealous might accuse you of being a mutant.

True. I was thinking of the more obvious things, like three arms, webbed fingers, two faces, ect. But yes, there are some genetic purity fanatics, like the Red Scorpions.

The emperor would definitely have been a genetic purist, probably because he knew the warp caused mutations. So he be happy to know that humanity was over zealous bout eradicated the mutated, even if they were executing people for north marks etc.

Aash wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
"Grimdark" started, need I remind you, as a joke term for bad writing.

I’m unaware of “grimdark” originating as a term for bad writing. Rather it is a term used specifically in reference to the 40K tag line: “ In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimdark

even from that article you see comments such as
"Whether grimdark is a genre in its own right or an unhelpful label has also been discussed. Valentine noted that while some writers have embraced the term, others see it as "a dismissive term for fantasy that's dismantling tropes, a stamp unfairly applied."


and
"Writing for The Guardian in 2016, Damien Walter summarized what he considered grimdark's "domination" of the fantasy genre as "bigger swords, more fighting, bloodier blood, more fighting, axes, more fighting", and, he surmised, a "commercial imperative to win adolescent male readers". He saw this trend as being in opposition to "a truly epic and more emotionally nuanced kind of fantasy" that delivered storytelling instead of only fights"

so yeah the idea that grimdark is just over the top edginess to appeal to 14 year boys who think emo edginess is "deep" is one that has been advanced

Aash wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
"Grimdark" started, need I remind you, as a joke term for bad writing.

I’m unaware of “grimdark” originating as a term for bad writing. Rather it is a term used specifically in reference to the 40K tag line: “ In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimdark

Though see also https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy for an explanation as to why "all grimdark all the time" can just end up making your story dull and uninteresting.

I feel like it's kind of the opposite actually: the game has become far more grim and serious and lost most of its silliness and self-aware humor.

The 3rd edition rulebook had a bit of flavor text on page 85 that I'll never forget:

"Ordnance weapons fire such enormous projectiles that they can smash through armour or hit with such force that the vehicle's crew are turned to mush."

And yes, they ended that sentence with a period! This deadpan flavor text always cracked me up, and I have fond memories of trying to imagine as a kid the combination of horror and hilarity of being "turned to mush" by an explosive tank shell detonating inside an armored vehicle.

I feel like there's less and less of this all the time. I feel like I started to notice this more and more in 5th edition, and since then the tone seems to become more dark and severe with every edition. Now it's all depression and brutality all the time with barely a hint of the self-aware humor that used to be there.

I agree, seems like some of the grimdark has been kept but the humour has been drained out. It was one of my main reasons for starting with Orks when I started 40k. Out of all the current factions it seems they are the only ones who kept the humour in that made me fall in love with 40k. Don't get me wrong I greatly enjoy KNC's grimdark thread and it has it's place, but there needs to be humour too, and not just in Orks. One of the greatest pieces of 40K backgrond I've ever read were the comics about the Redeemer (I think?) and his wacky adventures across Necromunda. Sure, when taking straight it was extremely grimdark too, but it also had humour and that was what made it amazing to me.

 Castozor wrote:
I agree, seems like some of the grimdark has been kept but the humour has been drained out. It was one of my main reasons for starting with Orks when I started 40k. Out of all the current factions it seems they are the only ones who kept the humour in that made me fall in love with 40k. Don't get me wrong I greatly enjoy KNC's grimdark thread and it has it's place, but there needs to be humour too, and not just in Orks. One of the greatest pieces of 40K backgrond I've ever read were the comics about the Redeemer (I think?) and his wacky adventures across Necromunda. Sure, when taking straight it was extremely grimdark too, but it also had humour and that was what made it amazing to me.

I think there is still humor. Onager Gauntlet? Onager is a kind of Asian donkey, making every attack with the weapon a donkey punch. The Ad Mech also think a the Dunecrawler looks like a Donkey (hence the "Onager" name). Plus they unironically cribbed DaVinci's sketches as actual designs.

So the jokes are still there, the problem is when the jokes crop up (like Jokareo), the community's more vocal elements flip out on them and complain that those elements are "ruining" everything.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
I agree, seems like some of the grimdark has been kept but the humour has been drained out. It was one of my main reasons for starting with Orks when I started 40k. Out of all the current factions it seems they are the only ones who kept the humour in that made me fall in love with 40k. Don't get me wrong I greatly enjoy KNC's grimdark thread and it has it's place, but there needs to be humour too, and not just in Orks. One of the greatest pieces of 40K backgrond I've ever read were the comics about the Redeemer (I think?) and his wacky adventures across Necromunda. Sure, when taking straight it was extremely grimdark too, but it also had humour and that was what made it amazing to me.

I think there is still humor. Onager Gauntlet? Onager is a kind of Asian donkey, making every attack with the weapon a donkey punch. The Ad Mech also think a the Dunecrawler looks like a Donkey (hence the "Onager" name). Plus they unironically cribbed DaVinci's sketches as actual designs.

So the jokes are still there, the problem is when the jokes crop up (like Jokareo), the community's more vocal elements flip out on them and complain that those elements are "ruining" everything.

It's certainly better then 3rd edition, which is where most of humor got drained out through.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
I agree, seems like some of the grimdark has been kept but the humour has been drained out. It was one of my main reasons for starting with Orks when I started 40k. Out of all the current factions it seems they are the only ones who kept the humour in that made me fall in love with 40k. Don't get me wrong I greatly enjoy KNC's grimdark thread and it has it's place, but there needs to be humour too, and not just in Orks. One of the greatest pieces of 40K backgrond I've ever read were the comics about the Redeemer (I think?) and his wacky adventures across Necromunda. Sure, when taking straight it was extremely grimdark too, but it also had humour and that was what made it amazing to me.

I think there is still humor. Onager Gauntlet? Onager is a kind of Asian donkey, making every attack with the weapon a donkey punch. The Ad Mech also think a the Dunecrawler looks like a Donkey (hence the "Onager" name). Plus they unironically cribbed DaVinci's sketches as actual designs.

So the jokes are still there, the problem is when the jokes crop up (like Jokareo), the community's more vocal elements flip out on them and complain that those elements are "ruining" everything.

It's certainly better then 3rd edition, which is where most of humor got drained out through.

3rd was where most of the humor died, but it's been trickling back in since then. At least Cain is still VERY canon which helps a lot too.

Thank you most kindly, the ancient! Most appreciated.

3rd edition 40k and 6th edition WHFB has often been summarized as borehammer, which seem a tad odd to me, who got into the hobby at this very time and enjoyed the fun royally.

There were still clear humour in there (although nothing much compared to what I've discovered from the fantastic Rogue Trader era, the hilarious Redeemer comic aside), and more to the point, the overall tryhard edginess was all apparently faked and tongue-in-cheek, ironically overdone in a ludicrously exaggerated grim darkness that one couldn't take seriously because it was so bonkers over the top. 40k at its most serious is still a comedy wrapped in a tragedy.

The humour is still here. For instance, mecha-ostrich Ironstriders of the Adeptus Mechanicus (whose ancient efficient STC template almost manage to break the laws of thermo-dynamics) are used hundreds at a time in giant treadmills to generate electricity, and the tech-priests don't know how to stop them from running, which makes resupply and rider switch a tricky art. That particular piece of writing is on par with much of the best Rogue Trader humour in my book, and completely true to the silly, ironically tryhard, funny dark bonkers spirit of the setting.



The thing is that all creative endeavours evolve over time, especially collective ones produced by a long-standing studio. Generations shift and long-serving individuals' tastes, styles and creative explorations end up mutating over the course of their carreers. New decrees of overall art and writing approaches are passed, such as making the setting more dark and serious for 3rd edition 40k (and exploring the Inquisition) or bringing back Rogue Trader concepts which has barely been given any screen time for many decades (starting with Jokaero?).

The tone of the setting will live its own life, shifting and twisting, not least as talent is rotated in and out. This is all a natural part of the freewheeling nature of human creativity. Brilliant contributors may say their farewells, while more mediocre talents enter the stage, producing less well received content with the best of creative intentions. Middling talents often develop and improve over time, though, and brilliant new recruits may come again as the natural cycle of creativity plays out with its ebbs and flows, its styles and tonal shifts.

On top of this, interference from non-creative suit staff, out of touch with the soul of their golden cow, may decree sweeping (and often creatively destructive) changes for reasons of IP mania, silly sensibilities or mainstream market pursuit that would betray the spirit of the setting and water down a fantastic niche built up through decades of mainly brilliant development by many different loving hands and minds, some more skilled than others.



Consider the natural cycle of creativity as a living and changing thing (not taking the high quality of e.g. Rogue Trader or late 3rd edition writing for granted to always endure without ebbs), and consider the risks of edicts from above stomping all over the creative works, and one may start to see that on the whole, Warhammer 40'000 is in a far better position today, than one would expect it to be.

It has been better handled by Games Workshop than it is often given credit for, once you consider all the pitfalls.

A longstanding studio culture of researching its older material (not least Rogue Trader era) is likely part of the explanation. 40k writers on the whole have never lost sight of their roots, or foundations. They keep going back to the original, mining it for ideas, even as they add their own take on the setting into the flowing stream.

The bonkers tongue-in-cheek, ludicrously grimdark spirit of the regressed setting is alive and well. It looks different than previously, but then yesteryear's grimdark looked rather different from what came before it as well. GW has not lost the plot, or betrayed their own glorious creation, even if not all writing can be on par with Rick Priestley's or Andy Chamber's, or all art on par with John Blanche's or Adrian Smith's.

Cheers!

- - -

Relevant reply to a good Bolter and Chainsword discussion:

It is imperative for the great spirit of the 40k setting that everyone is wrong, and no unequivocally good side is in sight at all. Making the evil empire into the setting's protagonist (seeing it mainly through the evil empire's propaganda lense) while having the strongest rebels not at all resemble those of Star Wars, but be insane Chaos worshippers - that is a masterstroke of worldbuilding.

Tau are not good, but this aggressively expanding, xenophile, propaganda state with all its implied Ethereal and Water Caste brainwashing and shady dealings are still miles away from the depraved depths of the counter-productively tyrannical, fanatical, xenocidal and massmurdering inept colossus on feet of clay that is the gloriously incompetent, corrupt and clumsy galactic behemoth known as the Imperium of Man. The nuance difference is huge.

Oh, I think you both misunderstood me. I’m making no value judgment on “grimdark” as a genre, or even if it properly is a genre. I’m disputing the idea that the term originated as a joke term for bad writing as was claimed when it is quite clear the term originated as a description based on the 40K tag line. It has since been a label applied to a variety of works of varying quality.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
The black and white art design/illustrations remain pretty consistent throughout 40k history ... however the adult swim / Rick and Morty style of artwork that has crept its way into the branding is simply terrible and lazy.

Are there any pieces you're thinking of in particular?

 vipoid wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
The black and white art design/illustrations remain pretty consistent throughout 40k history ... however the adult swim / Rick and Morty style of artwork that has crept its way into the branding is simply terrible and lazy.

Are there any pieces you're thinking of in particular?

He is talking about tumbrl style art I think

I felt the grimdark was, overall, more lost with the model sculps than the actual lore. Specifically, the daemons who have never seemed more camp/cartoonish. Compare the GW GUO with the Forge World one and you've got it demonstrated perfectly. Yeah, the Sisters were very on tone but there has definitely been a little watering down in the model sculps.

I'd say my main issues with the lore is they've lost that gothic horror or heavy metal vibe it used to have for something a bit more, I don't really know? Also, no one named ever actually dies. Calgar, for example, is long past his sell-by date and killing him (with Guilliman present) is an open goal.

Tyranids are a good example of something that have suffered in both regards i'd say. The 3rd ed models and some of the Armorcast ones seemed so much more 'out there'. The lore was this unstoppable, killing machine, mindless and without character. Mini stories like those of Old One Eye and The Red Terror used to invoke a little fear but these days the Nids just tend to come across more as just bugs.

The lore is still grim dark, i'm just not sure it's still as dark and nuanced so for everyone as it used to be. The detail is still there for the horror of the internal imperium but they're so often victorious (on the main stage) against their foes, even if 'pyrrhic' victories that it's hard to believe it really is that dark sometimes.

 Formosa wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
The black and white art design/illustrations remain pretty consistent throughout 40k history ... however the adult swim / Rick and Morty style of artwork that has crept its way into the branding is simply terrible and lazy.

Are there any pieces you're thinking of in particular?

He is talking about tumbrl style art I think

Spoiler:

https://www.google.com/search?q=tumblr+style+art&sxsrf=ALeKk00qlAloCVzjfls3t-dqdoWmvvBWRg:1606733031278&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwia3c_8iqrtAhWoUhUIHTrVA3IQ_AUoAXoECAwQAw&biw=1280&bih=578

Which means nothing. Tumblr is a platform, which a wide variety of artists post on.



The above image is from Thomas Elliot's tumblr. Would you say this fits into a easily definable "Tumblr style" or is it more likely you're going off buzzwords?

 Formosa wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
The black and white art design/illustrations remain pretty consistent throughout 40k history ... however the adult swim / Rick and Morty style of artwork that has crept its way into the branding is simply terrible and lazy.

Are there any pieces you're thinking of in particular?

He is talking about tumbrl style art I think

Spoiler:

https://www.google.com/search?q=tumblr+style+art&sxsrf=ALeKk00qlAloCVzjfls3t-dqdoWmvvBWRg:1606733031278&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwia3c_8iqrtAhWoUhUIHTrVA3IQ_AUoAXoECAwQAw&biw=1280&bih=578

You mean Kaiser's stuff?


If y'all are dunking on Kaiser's artwork she has done for GW's community page, then you should really reconsider about what you think the Warhammer Community website is for.

Remember. Those pieces of artwork, if it is either from Kaiser or one of the comic artists on the Community site, are not meant to reinforce the Grimdark setting of AoS or 40k. They are supposed to show another side of the hobby, namely the fun part of painting models and playing Tabletop. They are not going to replace the Codex artwork we get from people like Paul Dainton or Kevin Chin.

In my opinion, the artwork is still going strong. We had a low point I do admit during the beginning of AoS, but it has now turned way better. A lot of the artists that made stuff back in the old days are still going strong; Paul Dainton, Alex Boyd, John Blanche and even David Galagher are still making artwork for GW. New arrivals, like Phil Moss and Igor Sid have made some stunning pieces. My favourite artist currently is Lewis Jones, who has made a ton of stuff for the new Sisters Codex.

This is all recent artwork-----

Lewis Jones:


Paul Dainton:

Alex Boyd:


etc... etc...

That the Community website takes a light hearted approach and reaches out to different artists with different art styles is a good thing and a great way to strengthen the community.