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That's what happen when something inherently amateurish think of itself as a professional instead.

There are better games to show off your strategical skills. Doing it in Warhammer is like bragging about your equilibrium and steadiness of hand because you're good in piling children letter cube one upon the other

 techsoldaten wrote:
I read the thread.

There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.

You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.

That's more an indictment of how pointless the ITC rankings are for determining the best 40k player thanks to how easily manipulated they are and how they measure endurance, as Not Online says.

However, if you're naive enough to think that there aren't people out there that put enough value on someone's ITC standing to make it worth their while to massage those rankings for financial or reputational gain I think you're way out of touch. We can't quantify the financial value of being the best ITC player but are you suggesting the rankings of a group of people who offer coaching at the game for money do not factor into their financial success in any way?

To be clear, because it seems to have been forgotten among other arguments in this thread, I don't think anyone has stated it's wrong or immoral to offer a paid coaching service for 40k. The arguments are more around whether that's something worth paying for and whether the existence of paid coaching and the ITC rankings creates potential for unethical behaviour at tournaments.

Slipspace wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I read the thread.

There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.

You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.

That's more an indictment of how pointless the ITC rankings are for determining the best 40k player thanks to how easily manipulated they are and how they measure endurance, as Not Online says.

However, if you're naive enough to think that there aren't people out there that put enough value on someone's ITC standing to make it worth their while to massage those rankings for financial or reputational gain I think you're way out of touch. We can't quantify the financial value of being the best ITC player but are you suggesting the rankings of a group of people who offer coaching at the game for money do not factor into their financial success in any way?

To be clear, because it seems to have been forgotten among other arguments in this thread, I don't think anyone has stated it's wrong or immoral to offer a paid coaching service for 40k. The arguments are more around whether that's something worth paying for and whether the existence of paid coaching and the ITC rankings creates potential for unethical behaviour at tournaments.

You're setting the bar exceptionally high for this amateur tournament system, aren't you?

Most sports measure endurance as a component of achievement. Baseball / Crew / Golf / NASCAR / others recognize achievement in a similar way. You could be the most talented Baseball player in the league, you don't win the MVP if you can't make it through 162 games. For that matter, you could be the best 40k player in the world, does that fact actually matter if you only play a couple games a year?

ITC has been clear about how they do their rankings since they started. No one is trying to keep this a secret. Why are you trying to make it out to be a scandal? What do you think ITC should be measuring? What system would you recommend as being better? I'm really curious because this accusation makes the least amount of sense to me.

With regards to people not being able to participate because of Covid, what about back injuries? I don't go to tournaments because I suffer from lower back pain, standing upright for a whole day means I can't walk the next day. It's not hard for me to accept the fact that tournaments are off the table.

People living under lockdowns do not have physical limitations that prevent them from participating. Anyone is free to travel to a place that isn't locked down, you're not under house arrest. The fact there's no tournaments happening close to where you live is not a reason to shut down the rest of the system - you are not playing so there's nothing to measure and that is not ITC's fault. Most people know the talent pool is shallow in the tournament scene right now and aren't putting much stock into the results.

So what exactly are you going on about? Money? Quantify what someone could expect to earn from being an ITC champion, put a number on that before you crucify someone over it. If you're telling me you can't and no one would ever know, all you're doing is making up rumors to attack people's reputations.

You're pretending these guys are desperate for a ranking because their business depend on it. That's demonstrably false. There are plenty of people who earn money off YouTube who are not ITC champions. The factors that determine success are talent and having something interesting to say.

So why would that be different for the Brohammer team? And what's wrong with them using tournament success to market their business? Athletes do endorsements all the time, it's nice when someone can advertise for their own interests.

Again, I know nothing about their finances, but I would be really surprised to learn competing in tournaments increases revenues for their business to the point where it outweighs the costs of actually going to tournaments. There are expenses related to doing that, including registration fees, travel / lodging, time spent away from other pursuits that generate revenue, etc.

Being the top player in an amateur league doesn't actually mean much in the real world. I think you're letting your imagination go a little too far here and stirring up drama where none should exist. If there's some scandalous video of someone saying he's part of a conspiracy to upend the results of a tournament, feel free to share it. But you sound like someone who reads a lot into the situation.

Your personal back pain is not contagious and does not endanger others.

Potentially incentivising people to go to or organise a tournament against their best judgement, including probably quite a lot of minors as this is a toy-soldier game heavily played and marketed to children, will put other people at unnecessary risks, doubly so as playing with toy soldiers to accrues imaginary nerd points to feed the starved ego of neckbeards isn't a crucial or necessary activity in a pandemic. For that reason alone, the ITC should not do points and rankings, including for tournaments held in places that are 100% safe, at all until COVID is over. It's not about the risks or safety at location A or B. It's about a incentivising activities globally, while most of the globe is not safe, if you make the ranking global.

Stop being such an egoistic feth and try to remember there's other humans on this planet.

 techsoldaten wrote:
snip *A whole bunch of stuff tangentially related to anything I actually said* /snip

I have no idea what most of that has to do with literally anything I said. You seem to be way overreacting here. My quoted post doesn't mention Covid at all, though I'm not sure there's much point in discussing that any further with someone who equates back pain to an infectious, deadly disease that spreads through social contact. Plaase tell me you understand how those two things are different?

As far as the money side of things goes, I'm making no judgements about how much money anyone is earning from this. I have no idea what the finances are like for those involved. However, we know that people do get paid for coaching - they make money based at least partially on their reputation, which is in turn based on their ITC rankings. So no, it's not demonstrably false that your ITC ranking has no impact on your business of 40k coaching. If anything, I'd argue that the default position would be the higher your ranking the better for your coaching business. You or I may not agree with others about the importance of those rankings but that's irrelevant if other people use them as some metric of quality. That seems like a reasonable conclusion to draw. Like it or not, once a professional business venture is involved, any potential shady behaviour is going to come under a lot more scrutiny. 40k doesn't have a great track record with the reputation of some of its top tournament players.

I know people earn money from 40k-related activities other than coaching and most people who offer coaching fall into that category as well. Since I'm not talking about those other activities and have never brought them up I have no idea why you think it's relevant to the discussion.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Jerram wrote:
I'm still waiting for any legit proof it was a questionable tournament. I see an original post full of so much innuendo and emotion I cant take it seriously. people drop out in the second round after losing in the first all the dang time, Give me a break. Oh the winner's friend was in the tournament OMG that never happens. As far as the whole scheduling discussion I remember a couple years ago I'd often end up in an impromptu sanctioned magic tournament that would happen cause we had a critical mass at the game store. Sorry sounds like people making a mountain out of a mole hill.

The issue is not the tournament, but the marketing and therefore posibility to make money off it, for further reputational gain. Whilest other players in the same league can't due to the difference in strictness of lockdowns etc.
Basically you have a counting league, that doesn't really meassure skill but endurance, whilest outside forces disallow certain players to partake , which is a situation taken advantage by this group.

Beyond the fact that it is completely fething slowed to have a tournament during the pandemic but that's besides now isn't it.

pretty much on point. Given all of the things that came out of this, it def looked like a "home alone" like operation to boost rankings for a specific player due to the many things (i.e. ringers from the same thing, organizers directly beneffiting from this, etc)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:
LOL at this thread.

It just keeps gifting us with comedy.

Now we have "The legend of Bagger Vance" in here telling us how strong his golf game was back in the day...

Yea and Rico could throw a pig skin clear over 'dem mountains.

WTF does any of that have to do with folks taking the piss outta bunch of neck beards trying to scam fake points for a tabletop game?

"The legend of Bagger Vance"

This home alone point scam plot just keeps on giving lmao


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I read the thread.

There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.

You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.

That's more an indictment of how pointless the ITC rankings are for determining the best 40k player thanks to how easily manipulated they are and how they measure endurance, as Not Online says.

However, if you're naive enough to think that there aren't people out there that put enough value on someone's ITC standing to make it worth their while to massage those rankings for financial or reputational gain I think you're way out of touch. We can't quantify the financial value of being the best ITC player but are you suggesting the rankings of a group of people who offer coaching at the game for money do not factor into their financial success in any way?

To be clear, because it seems to have been forgotten among other arguments in this thread, I don't think anyone has stated it's wrong or immoral to offer a paid coaching service for 40k. The arguments are more around whether that's something worth paying for and whether the existence of paid coaching and the ITC rankings creates potential for unethical behaviour at tournaments.

The arguments are more around whether that's something worth paying for and whether the existence of paid coaching and the ITC rankings creates potential for unethical behaviour at tournaments. Yeah people try to distract with Legend of Bagger Vance and back pain stories but it is nothing but Red Herrings. The issue isn't paid coaching, it is the obvious conflict of interests that creates unethical behavior. Pretty sure there are laws against this but the money is so little now that they aren't on anyone's radar.



Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell. That was shady af, it was sort of the cherry on top of all it. The only thing to make this a closed case if us seeing a public facebook thread about how to set up the ringer and then have him drop out, among the other players. Given everything, it is more reasonable that this was indeed a scam for points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Your personal back pain is not contagious and does not endanger others.

Potentially incentivising people to go to or organise a tournament against their best judgement, including probably quite a lot of minors as this is a toy-soldier game heavily played and marketed to children, will put other people at unnecessary risks, doubly so as playing with toy soldiers to accrues imaginary nerd points to feed the starved ego of neckbeards isn't a crucial or necessary activity in a pandemic. For that reason alone, the ITC should not do points and rankings, including for tournaments held in places that are 100% safe, at all until COVID is over. It's not about the risks or safety at location A or B. It's about a incentivising activities globally, while most of the globe is not safe, if you make the ranking global.

Stop being such an egoistic feth and try to remember there's other humans on this planet.

Good closing point. And 100% agree that "playing with toy soldiers to accrues imaginary nerd points to feed the starved ego of neckbeards isn't a crucial or necessary activity in a pandemic"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
snip *A whole bunch of stuff tangentially related to anything I actually said* /snip

We know that people do get paid for coaching - they make money based at least partially on their reputation, which is in turn based on their ITC rankings. So no, it's not demonstrably false that your ITC ranking has no impact on your business of 40k coaching. If anything, I'd argue that the default position would be the higher your ranking the better for your coaching business.

There are so many irrelevant points being made to distract from the fact that you and others keep bringing up. Shady, unethical behavior so that "they make money based at least partially on their reputation, which is in turn based on their ITC rankings"

Can someone link these irrelevant golf and other meme stories to the Red Herring wiki page? Perfect examples of that very popular Logical fallacy lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

Slipspace wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I read the thread.

There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.

You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.

Sounds more like ITC made a knee jerk reaction caving to the social media mob. Do you have a link to the video ?

 Cybtroll wrote:
That's what happen when something inherently amateurish think of itself as a professional instead.

There are better games to show off your strategical skills. Doing it in Warhammer is like bragging about your equilibrium and steadiness of hand because you're good in piling children letter cube one upon the other

Exactly, like you and many others have said this game is so unbalanced and has so many broken things that it is less about strategy and more about finding the coolander that hasn't been plugged yet. This thread summarizes perfectly how this "strategy" game works and how people just work to find the most broken combo, that basically lets you statistically steamroll your opponents by piling children letter cubes lol


.........................
[transcript of the image]

Ceanndach
I think the Brohammer guys properly identified that Cogitated Martyrdom is absolutely busted and built a list strictly to take advantage of it. This probably prompted Seigler to switch.




scrotilicus132
I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet and I don't play space marines. What does that strat do?



Ceanndach
Lets a character pass off damage that it takes to a nearby infantry unit on a 2+ and they take a mortal wound for each damage.
However this is after applying Iron Stone, the Dreadnought 1/2 damage strat and rolling the 2+/4++/5+++ on the dread for being IH /w the Master Apothecary.
The infantry taking whatever wounds are left, also get to roll a 5+++. It is effectively better than shield drones.



scrotilicus132
Wait so the dread gets to take all it's saves, then any damage that makes it through the reductions and it's saves gets passed off to the infantry.... Who can then take their own feel no pains....
What
The
phuck



nightreader
Yeah. Some serious horsepoop there.

Jerram wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I read the thread.

There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.

You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.

Sounds more like ITC made a knee jerk reaction caving to the social media mob. Do you have a link to the video ?

From the info on the 40k FB page the TO seems to have admitted his wrongdoing and accepted the sanction, but sure, let's keep assuming it's all a big misunderstanding.

The video was a clip from an AOW livestream with Richard Siegler and John Lennon. It showed up in the comments of the FB page the Nurgle-related image from this thread appeared on.

Jerram wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I read the thread.

There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.

You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.

Sounds more like ITC made a knee jerk reaction caving to the social media mob. Do you have a link to the video ?

kneejerk? lmao they only thing they caved to was giving them a slap on the wrist to try to make it seem like they were doing something to try to make the ITC not look like a clown show.


You can see the ringer's fake name at the bottom(Brian Siegler) and then him dropping out in the official tournament sheet


https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/muceqkcv




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:

Jerram wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I read the thread.

There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.

You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.

Sounds more like ITC made a knee jerk reaction caving to the social media mob. Do you have a link to the video ?

From the info on the 40k FB page the TO seems to have admitted his wrongdoing and accepted the sanction, but sure, let's keep assuming it's all a big misunderstanding.

The video was a clip from an AOW livestream with Richard Siegler and John Lennon. It showed up in the comments of the FB page the Nurgle-related image from this thread appeared on.

let's keep assuming it's all a big misunderstanding

yeah pretty much, according to the rules they should have been banned.

If the ITC doesn't want to be viewed as a clown show they should have enforced the rules with some bans/points reductions and not let the ITC rankings be a padded meme of coaching up-selling services.

gundam wrote:

If the ITC doesn't want to be viewed as a clown show they should have enforced the rules with some bans/points reductions and not let the ITC rankings be a padded meme of coaching up-selling services.

"The ITC", to begin with, is just a marketing-thing by FLG to hawk their events (which in turn hawk their terrain, mats, etc..). The Art of War stuff is on their website. The "celebrity-pro-player-idea" is circulated first and foremost on their own podcasts and blogs.

Those rankings and points don't make any money. Their raison d'etre is to drive business to those sites, getting people to pay them money for coaching to play better at the events they organise, possibly with the latest "meta-list" painting by their painting studio, while listening to ads on their social media and hopefully also taking old mats, terrain, etc.. off their hands after the event so FLG doesn't have to store it and can get new design for the next round of events.

 Cybtroll wrote:
That's what happen when something inherently amateurish think of itself as a professional instead.

There are better games to show off your strategical skills. Doing it in Warhammer is like bragging about your equilibrium and steadiness of hand because you're good in piling children letter cube one upon the other

I got 7 the other day!

 AduroT wrote:
Same kind of stuff happened in the Warmachine circuit as well so I’m not at all surprised. A stink was raised when in the final round of a tournament where the winner got a spot in a later invitational, his opponent who was a friend of his and had already previously won a spot in an earlier event forfeit.

The very idea of "teams" in an individually-ranked environment is a recipe for collusion.

Catulle wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Same kind of stuff happened in the Warmachine circuit as well so I’m not at all surprised. A stink was raised when in the final round of a tournament where the winner got a spot in a later invitational, his opponent who was a friend of his and had already previously won a spot in an earlier event forfeit.

The very idea of "teams" in an individually-ranked environment is a recipe for collusion.

By "teams" we're literally talking about "a group of friends that carpooled to the event". You can give it a label but this is not exactly a hobby that works without connecting with opponents.

Slipspace wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
snip *A whole bunch of stuff tangentially related to anything I actually said* /snip

I have no idea what most of that has to do with literally anything I said. You seem to be way overreacting here. My quoted post doesn't mention Covid at all, though I'm not sure there's much point in discussing that any further with someone who equates back pain to an infectious, deadly disease that spreads through social contact. Plaase tell me you understand how those two things are different?

So this isn't about who can participate in tournaments, this is about public health policy. Got it.

My sister manages a grocery store. She's been customer-facing since day one, sees a lot more people every day than you would at a 24 person tournament.

So you are exaggerating a little bit about the dangers of interacting with others. Millions do it daily without issue.

Slipspace wrote:
As far as the money side of things goes, I'm making no judgements about how much money anyone is earning from this. I have no idea what the finances are like for those involved. However, we know that people do get paid for coaching - they make money based at least partially on their reputation, which is in turn based on their ITC rankings.

I've asked you to quantify whatever profit they make make from this, all you've come back with is a hunch.

How much money do you think these guys are making from their coaching service? How much more do you think they're making because one of them is an ITC champion?

I'd bet the answer is less than the cost for a team of people to actually attend tournaments during an average year.

Slipspace wrote:
So no, it's not demonstrably false that your ITC ranking has no impact on your business of 40k coaching.

That's pretty shady what you're doing there, pretending these Team Bro guys are desperate for wins to keep their business going.

Sure, being an ITC champ generates attention, but plenty of people offer the same services you described without ever playing in the ITC. If other people can do it without some title, then that title really doesn't matter, does it? It's just a nice to have.

Help me understand what specifically makes these Team Bro guys dependent on a system that doesn't seem to matter much to other people who do the same. Like, do they not actually know how to play the game? Are they really ugly people who would not be able to attract an audience but for some title in an amateur league?

Just answer the question, what makes this team so special that they have to have that title for their business to keep going? You don't really have an answer for that, do you?

Slipspace wrote:
If anything, I'd argue that the default position would be the higher your ranking the better for your coaching business. You or I may not agree with others about the importance of those rankings but that's irrelevant if other people use them as some metric of quality. That seems like a reasonable conclusion to draw. Like it or not, once a professional business venture is involved, any potential shady behaviour is going to come under a lot more scrutiny. 40k doesn't have a great track record with the reputation of some of its top tournament players.

I know people earn money from 40k-related activities other than coaching and most people who offer coaching fall into that category as well. Since I'm not talking about those other activities and have never brought them up I have no idea why you think it's relevant to the discussion.

Yeah, you keep saying things like that and pretending you have some special insight into what motivates these people.

Much simpler explanation is they are gamers participating in a system looking to max out their score. Just like any rational, intelligent gamer would.

It comes with some attention that may translate into dollars, but they also put thousands of hours a year into the hobby. They'd probably make more taking a job at McDonalds than they would spending their time doing 40k. If they are one of those rare unicorns that can make a living at the hobby, good for them. Hope they enjoy it while it lasts.

But again, they're gamers. They look at how the game is played and try to win. There's a reason you can't understand that and they're not the ones to blame.

The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).

I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.

techsoldaten's argument just boils down to: "There's no such thing as exploiting, if it's legal, it's kosher, and in fact top players SHOULD be doing it because they'd be fools not to."

That's an argument, but it's not one even the ITC itself endorses, as evidenced by what they did in response to what was a pretty obvious attempt to manipulate the rankings, something ITC does not consider just "part of winning" the way techsoldaten does.

yukishiro1 wrote:
techsoldaten's argument just boils down to: "There's no such thing as exploiting, if it's legal, it's kosher, and in fact top players SHOULD be doing it because they'd be fools not to."

That's an argument, but it's not one even the ITC itself endorses, as evidenced by what they did in response to what was a pretty obvious attempt to manipulate the rankings, something ITC does not consider just "part of winning" the way techsoldaten does.

No, my argument is the people making accusations are the problem.

If they have so much to say, they can back up their claims. All I've seen is personal attacks, claims of special insight into something they know nothing about, and sidestepping the most basic questions.

Weak and stupid.

Jerram wrote:
The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).

I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.

the video has been out for a while so if I send you the direct link, will you finally admit they are shady or not?

gundam wrote:

Jerram wrote:
The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).

I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.

the video has been out for a while so if I send you the direct link, will you finally admit they are shady or not?

Put the link up and let people make up their own minds.

You people are so manipulative.

 techsoldaten wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
techsoldaten's argument just boils down to: "There's no such thing as exploiting, if it's legal, it's kosher, and in fact top players SHOULD be doing it because they'd be fools not to."

That's an argument, but it's not one even the ITC itself endorses, as evidenced by what they did in response to what was a pretty obvious attempt to manipulate the rankings, something ITC does not consider just "part of winning" the way techsoldaten does.

No, my argument is the people making accusations are the problem.

If they have so much to say, they can back up their claims. All I've seen is personal attacks, claims of special insight into something they know nothing about, and sidestepping the most basic questions.

Weak and stupid.

lmao this guy, I bet his IP address belongs in the same geographical area as someone involved with this org. There is video proof, so if you get the link will you finally stop? or will you continue posting non-relevant tangents?

gundam wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
techsoldaten's argument just boils down to: "There's no such thing as exploiting, if it's legal, it's kosher, and in fact top players SHOULD be doing it because they'd be fools not to."

That's an argument, but it's not one even the ITC itself endorses, as evidenced by what they did in response to what was a pretty obvious attempt to manipulate the rankings, something ITC does not consider just "part of winning" the way techsoldaten does.

No, my argument is the people making accusations are the problem.

If they have so much to say, they can back up their claims. All I've seen is personal attacks, claims of special insight into something they know nothing about, and sidestepping the most basic questions.

Weak and stupid.

lmao this guy, I bet his IP address belongs in the same geographical area as someone involved with this org. There is video proof, so if you get the link will you finally stop? or will you continue posting non-relevant tangents?

Again - post the stupid link or stfu.

 techsoldaten wrote:

gundam wrote:

Jerram wrote:
The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).

I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.

the video has been out for a while so if I send you the direct link, will you finally admit they are shady or not?

Put the link up and let people make up their own minds.

You people are so manipulative.

"make up their own minds?

There is Proof that I am wrong? it is THE proof that is wrong!" haha

sounds like you are an alternative facts type of dude. No one here is manipulative, you just don't know how to cordially engage in civil discussion without resorting to irrelevant tangents, and simple-minded logical fallacies such as Re Herrings. Also, calling people stupid? No one here insulted anyone until you came here.

If you are so triggered by people calling out shady practices in a plastic toy game, maybe revaluate your life?

gundam wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

gundam wrote:

Jerram wrote:
The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).

I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.

the video has been out for a while so if I send you the direct link, will you finally admit they are shady or not?

Put the link up and let people make up their own minds.

You people are so manipulative.

"make up their own minds?

There is Proof that I am wrong? it is THE proof that is wrong!" haha

sounds like you are an alternative facts type of dude. No one here is manipulative, you just don't know how to cordially engage in civil discussion without resorting to irrelevant tangents, and simple-minded logical fallacies such as Re Herrings. Also, calling people stupid? No one here insulted anyone until you came here.

If you are so triggered by people calling out shady practices in a plastic toy game, maybe revaluate your life?

Still not seeing a link to that stupid video you claim to have.

Put up or shut up.

Catulle wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Same kind of stuff happened in the Warmachine circuit as well so I’m not at all surprised. A stink was raised when in the final round of a tournament where the winner got a spot in a later invitational, his opponent who was a friend of his and had already previously won a spot in an earlier event forfeit.

The very idea of "teams" in an individually-ranked environment is a recipe for collusion.

this whole thing has been a meme of collusions from the start lol

techsoldaten wrote:
So this isn't about who can participate in tournaments, this is about public health policy. Got it.

My sister manages a grocery store. She's been customer-facing since day one, sees a lot more people every day than you would at a 24 person tournament.

So you are exaggerating a little bit about the dangers of interacting with others. Millions do it daily without issue.

If you can't figure out the difference between the requirement to buy food and attending a 40k tournament I really can't help you.

techsoldaten wrote:
I've asked you to quantify whatever profit they make make from this, all you've come back with is a hunch.

How much money do you think these guys are making from their coaching service? How much more do you think they're making because one of them is an ITC champion?

I'd bet the answer is less than the cost for a team of people to actually attend tournaments during an average year.

Just answer the question, what makes this team so special that they have to have that title for their business to keep going? You don't really have an answer for that, do you?

And you don't understand the point I'm making here either. I don't have a number to give you, which I made clear in my previous posts. The point, which you seem unable to grasp, is that they have a business venture that generates money for them based on 40k coaching. The amount is irrelevant, assuming it's non-zero, which seems like a safe assumption.

Further, it seems a safe assumption that having a high position in the ITC rankings is beneficial to a business that is based on competence in that system - given two different coaches offering the same service for the same cost and all other things being equal, I suspect a very high proportion of people would choose the coach with the top-10 ITC ranking over the one with a ranking of 500. That's why people are viewing this as potentially shady, because success in 40k tournaments can logically be shown to have a potential impact on the success of their side-business.

Jerram wrote:The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).

I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.

Link to the video: https://www.facebook.com/bambamhunter/videos/10157959810170662

Nobody's saying this is the only tournament that shouldn't be running due to Covid, it's just the one that's being discussed here for a different reason. That doesn't change the fact that running a tournament in that location is a bad idea right now.

 techsoldaten wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
techsoldaten's argument just boils down to: "There's no such thing as exploiting, if it's legal, it's kosher, and in fact top players SHOULD be doing it because they'd be fools not to."

That's an argument, but it's not one even the ITC itself endorses, as evidenced by what they did in response to what was a pretty obvious attempt to manipulate the rankings, something ITC does not consider just "part of winning" the way techsoldaten does.

No, my argument is the people making accusations are the problem.

If they have so much to say, they can back up their claims. All I've seen is personal attacks, claims of special insight into something they know nothing about, and sidestepping the most basic questions.

Weak and stupid.

No, you literally said there is no such thing as an illegitimate tournament - I can go back and quote it if you want? - a view the ITC itself clearly disagrees with.

If you want to walk back your prior argument and make a different argument that's fine, though that seems to fit the definition of "weak" better than anything else in this thread.

 techsoldaten wrote:

gundam wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

gundam wrote:

Jerram wrote:
The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).

I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.

the video has been out for a while so if I send you the direct link, will you finally admit they are shady or not?

Put the link up and let people make up their own minds.

You people are so manipulative.

"make up their own minds?

There is Proof that I am wrong? it is THE proof that is wrong!" haha

sounds like you are an alternative facts type of dude. No one here is manipulative, you just don't know how to cordially engage in civil discussion without resorting to irrelevant tangents, and simple-minded logical fallacies such as Re Herrings. Also, calling people stupid? No one here insulted anyone until you came here.

If you are so triggered by people calling out shady practices in a plastic toy game, maybe revaluate your life?

Still not seeing a link to that stupid video you claim to have.

Put up or shut up.

lmao

I am eating now and I was just about to post the link but I mostly wanted you to show your cards and see how vested you are in this coaching/ITC clown show.....


You must have so MUCH time invested into this since you keep talking about completely irrelevant stuff, insulting people and just being all-around a very triggered person.

Here is ANOTHER link that says how Siegler was the ringer and then was going to drop out before round 5. Starts at 14:45

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/829172665

IT would be interesting to see if they take this video down.

Maybe just find a different outlet since you just seem very triggered by shady behavior in a plastic toy game. It is a bid sad tbh


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
techsoldaten's argument just boils down to: "There's no such thing as exploiting, if it's legal, it's kosher, and in fact top players SHOULD be doing it because they'd be fools not to."

That's an argument, but it's not one even the ITC itself endorses, as evidenced by what they did in response to what was a pretty obvious attempt to manipulate the rankings, something ITC does not consider just "part of winning" the way techsoldaten does.

No, my argument is the people making accusations are the problem.

If they have so much to say, they can back up their claims. All I've seen is personal attacks, claims of special insight into something they know nothing about, and sidestepping the most basic questions.

Weak and stupid.

No, you literally said there is no such thing as an illegitimate tournament - I can go back and quote it if you want? - a view the ITC itself clearly disagrees with.

If you want to walk back your prior argument and make a different argument that's fine, though that seems to fit the definition of "weak" better than anything else in this thread.

tbh, I would just ignore this dude. He could have left the thread ages ago but the dude clearly has skin in this coaching/ITC stuff, keeps ranting off, calling people stupid, etc

Slipspace wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:
So this isn't about who can participate in tournaments, this is about public health policy. Got it.

My sister manages a grocery store. She's been customer-facing since day one, sees a lot more people every day than you would at a 24 person tournament.

So you are exaggerating a little bit about the dangers of interacting with others. Millions do it daily without issue.

If you can't figure out the difference between the requirement to buy food and attending a 40k tournament I really can't help you.

techsoldaten wrote:
I've asked you to quantify whatever profit they make make from this, all you've come back with is a hunch.

How much money do you think these guys are making from their coaching service? How much more do you think they're making because one of them is an ITC champion?

I'd bet the answer is less than the cost for a team of people to actually attend tournaments during an average year.

Just answer the question, what makes this team so special that they have to have that title for their business to keep going? You don't really have an answer for that, do you?

And you don't understand the point I'm making here either. I don't have a number to give you, which I made clear in my previous posts. The point, which you seem unable to grasp, is that they have a business venture that generates money for them based on 40k coaching. The amount is irrelevant, assuming it's non-zero, which seems like a safe assumption.

Further, it seems a safe assumption that having a high position in the ITC rankings is beneficial to a business that is based on competence in that system - given two different coaches offering the same service for the same cost and all other things being equal, I suspect a very high proportion of people would choose the coach with the top-10 ITC ranking over the one with a ranking of 500. That's why people are viewing this as potentially shady, because success in 40k tournaments can logically be shown to have a potential impact on the success of their side-business.

Jerram wrote:The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).

I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.

Link to the video: https://www.facebook.com/bambamhunter/videos/10157959810170662

Nobody's saying this is the only tournament that shouldn't be running due to Covid, it's just the one that's being discussed here for a different reason. That doesn't change the fact that running a tournament in that location is a bad idea right now.

It is clear this dude has skin in this coaching/ITC raquet, we all get the very common concepts you are talking about

" I don't have a number to give you, which I made clear in my previous posts. The point, which you seem unable to grasp, is that they have a business venture that generates money for them based on 40k coaching. The amount is irrelevant, assuming it's non-zero, which seems like a safe assumption.

Further, it seems a safe assumption that having a high position in the ITC rankings is beneficial to a business that is based on competence in that system - given two different coaches offering the same service for the same cost and all other things being equal, I suspect a very high proportion of people would choose the coach with the top-10 ITC ranking over the one with a ranking of 500. That's why people are viewing this as potentially shady, because success in 40k tournaments can logically be shown to have a potential impact on the success of their side-business. "

we all get that and agree thats the reason why this shady behavior happens. And also a dude above just posted the best evidence of how a chunk of their business (i.e. ITC "Terrain". coaching, etc) revolves around it.

FLG didn't really have a choice but to act in this case, it really exposed the problem with their rankings on such a fundamental level.

People have been farming ITC points for years now by attending lots of events, and that was tacitly condoned, but this took it one step further by holding an event for the specific purpose of allowing a particular player to get himself to the #1 ITC ranking.

And that was just a bridge too far beyond what FLG could accept in terms of their system being manipulated. If they had allowed that, it would have created an arms-race where people were just holding their own events all the time to farm points for themselves.