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1) What loyalists can do is hardly a milestone. On top of that, the units which actually can drop pod in are fairly limited, as it's only firstborn non-terminator infantry.
2) Most legions will have access to the same plague marines as DG.
3) And yes, ruining one datasheet for all armies is better than ruining an entire army for one datasheet.

 Jidmah wrote:
1) What loyalists can do is hardly a milestone. On top of that, the units which actually can drop pod in are fairly limited, as it's only firstborn non-terminator infantry.
2) Most legions will have access to the same plague marines as DG.
3) And yes, ruining one datasheet for all armies is better than ruining an entire army for one datasheet.

1)They can do the exact same thing with dreadnoughts now. The dreadnought drop pod has the same rules as normal loyalist drop pods in the Compendium.
2)We don't know that. It's entirely possible that the new CSM codex will return the Undivided Legions to the same paradigm as in 3.5 and Traitor Legions: No units with God specific marks except Black Legion, at which point only Black Legion is a problem.
3)Simple solution: Death Guard don't get Dreadclaws and Karybdis Assault Claws. There's already plenty of units they don't share with the other Legions, what's two more?

 Jidmah wrote:
1) What loyalists can do is hardly a milestone. On top of that, the units which actually can drop pod in are fairly limited, as it's only firstborn non-terminator infantry.
2) Most legions will have access to the same plague marines as DG.
3) And yes, ruining one datasheet for all armies is better than ruining an entire army for one datasheet.

isnt it the Deathguard specific stratagems that make the terrax bomb so good? So non DG plagues wouldnt be as feared anyway.
Firstborn still have tons of really strong out of droppod options. Grav guns, Assault squads, veterans.....

Furthermore, those units are hardly useless without a pod, therefore disproving the notion that "a unit is either priced to be useful with a pod and garbage without it, or is priced to be useful without it and overpowered with it."

Welcome to 40k, where everything is either useless of overpowered.

That's the worst way to experience the hobby by the way... It's an hobby, there isn't anything mandatory an the fact that a new player can be swayed on one way or another have literally nothing to do with FW

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Furthermore, those units are hardly useless without a pod, therefore disproving the notion that "a unit is either priced to be useful with a pod and garbage without it, or is priced to be useful without it and overpowered with it."

Way to misrepresent an argument.

Either plague marines are priced under the assumption that they move 5" and take their time to get to objectives. Then dropping 10 of them onto enemy objectives T1 and eliminating their biggest drawback is a problem.
Or plague marines are priced under the assumption that they can drop T1 onto enemy objectives and hold them, then you are fighting an uphill battle when it takes them 2 turns to get to those objectives.

DG spent an entire edition being impacted by another codex was synergizing with them:
- Mortarion was assumed to be warptimed by TS/CSM and never received a points drop despite being worthless as a brick in pure DG armies
- Pox walkers were nerfed into the ground (literally, there is now a stratagem to burry them) because of their interactions with horrors
- I think every single notable DG list but one or two had nurglings in them.
- People are already crying for nerfing MBH because of their interaction with GUOs and Epidemius

And so on. For once, it would be great that playing an army with just the rules for that army was possibile without effectively kneecapping yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
1) What loyalists can do is hardly a milestone. On top of that, the units which actually can drop pod in are fairly limited, as it's only firstborn non-terminator infantry.
2) Most legions will have access to the same plague marines as DG.
3) And yes, ruining one datasheet for all armies is better than ruining an entire army for one datasheet.

1)They can do the exact same thing with dreadnoughts now. The dreadnought drop pod has the same rules as normal loyalist drop pods in the Compendium.

Of course they can That doesn't change that they still have rather limited choice of what to drop, as all the obvious things which I would put into pods are primaris. Most other options can just be replaced by terminator squads or jump infantry deep striking without help. Which leaves them with what options that actually make sense to pay points for to deep strike? veterans and devs?

2)We don't know that. It's entirely possible that the new CSM codex will return the Undivided Legions to the same paradigm as in 3.5 and Traitor Legions: No units with God specific marks except Black Legion, at which point only Black Legion is a problem.

Except we do know that, because GW explicitly said so. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/30/the-most-improved-units-from-codex-death-guard/

3)Simple solution: Death Guard don't get Dreadclaws and Karybdis Assault Claws. There's already plenty of units they don't share with the other Legions, what's two more?

Alternative simple solution: Nerf those two units into the ground so they don't break the game, and people can keep playing the models they already own for fluff reasons. Oh, wait, that already happened

@Jidmah, im curious as to why you think PM in particular would need a "pod tax" and why youre focusing on them in particular when so many other units can go in them.

I'd much rather the pod behave like a pod instead of a deepstriking rhino.

Because this discussion was spawned my me commenting that I'm rather glad that DG aren't getting warped by yet another model from another book, and Gadzilla somehow took offense in that.

There simply is no other unit besides helbrutes that DG could put into them.

 Jidmah wrote:
Because this discussion was spawned my me commenting that I'm rather glad that DG aren't getting warped by yet another model from another book, and Gadzilla somehow took offense in that.

There simply is no other unit besides helbrutes that DG could put into them.

Possesed, blightlords, deathshroud, contemptor, helbrute, plague marines, foul blightspawn are all legit choices to put in the pods.

Cultists, poxwalkers, all the characters are meme payloads but still possible

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Because this discussion was spawned my me commenting that I'm rather glad that DG aren't getting warped by yet another model from another book, and Gadzilla somehow took offense in that.

There simply is no other unit besides helbrutes that DG could put into them.

Possesed, blightlords, deathshroud, contemptor, helbrute, plague marines, foul blightspawn are all legit choices to put in the pods.

Cultists, poxwalkers, all the characters are meme payloads but still possible

No, all of them are "meme payloads" as you described them because they are either melee only units with no way to increase their chance to make that 9" charge, terminators with the innate ability to deep strike, have no objective secured or are units with no reason to get close to the enemy in the first place.

The only one that might be an option besides plague marines is the foul blightspawn, and only after the codex release and assuming he gets a 12" flamer like everyone else and not nerfed into the oblivion.
Seriously, if you consider any of the other stuff a legit choice, your transport hanging around for a turn before unpacking should be no problem at all either.

That said, after reading a bit about dread claws and assault claws, it seems like their current rules perfectly reflect their fluff. Unlike the loyalist drop pods, which crash onto the surface, become immobile and need to be recovered after the battle, these things are actual drop ships which can not only pick up their cargo and return to orbit, but also are described as delaying their decent in order to clear out their landing zone and even doing strafing runs before setting down. So it kind of makes sense that they function more similar to storm ravens or storm fangs than drop pods.

Feel free to give it a read yourself:
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Dreadclaw
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Kharybdis_Assault_Claw

 Jidmah wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Because this discussion was spawned my me commenting that I'm rather glad that DG aren't getting warped by yet another model from another book, and Gadzilla somehow took offense in that.

There simply is no other unit besides helbrutes that DG could put into them.

Possesed, blightlords, deathshroud, contemptor, helbrute, plague marines, foul blightspawn are all legit choices to put in the pods.

Cultists, poxwalkers, all the characters are meme payloads but still possible

No, all of them are "meme payloads" as you described them because they are either melee only units with no way to increase their chance to make that 9" charge, terminators with the innate ability to deep strike, have no objective secured or are units with no reason to get close to the enemy in the first place.

The only one that might be an option besides plague marines is the foul blightspawn, and only after the codex release and assuming he gets a 12" flamer like everyone else and not nerfed into the oblivion.
Seriously, if you consider any of the other stuff a legit choice, your transport hanging around for a turn before unpacking should be no problem at all either.

That said, after reading a bit about dread claws and assault claws, it seems like their current rules perfectly reflect their fluff. Unlike the loyalist drop pods, which crash onto the surface, become immobile and need to be recovered after the battle, these things are actual drop ships which can not only pick up their cargo and return to orbit, but also are described as delaying their decent in order to clear out their landing zone and even doing strafing runs before setting down. So it kind of makes sense that they function more similar to storm ravens or storm fangs than drop pods.

Feel free to give it a read yourself:
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Dreadclaw
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Kharybdis_Assault_Claw

Dropping terminators on the midfield on turn one seems like a super strong move considering how tough and killy they are up close.
possesed need to connect, they have better odds of doing so when theyre 9" away than when theyre stuck in the deployment zone.
Dread with a melee weapon wouldnt mind being closer to its targets, and even if he misses the charge ,its still got decent firepower (a big "deal with me or else" target in your opponent's face).

 Jidmah wrote:
FW were never taken away from DG and TS. They merely clarified the rules.

Eh when playtesters asked were they going to errata them back they were told no.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
FW were never taken away from DG and TS. They merely clarified the rules.

Eh when playtesters asked were they going to errata them back they were told no.

I wasn't aware that play testers were an official source for rules. The actual rules never prevented you from replacing <LEGION> with DEATH GUARD, THOUSAND SONS or FALLEN for anything outside of codex CSM.

 Jidmah wrote:
That said, after reading a bit about dread claws and assault claws, it seems like their current rules perfectly reflect their fluff. Unlike the loyalist drop pods, which crash onto the surface, become immobile and need to be recovered after the battle, these things are actual drop ships which can not only pick up their cargo and return to orbit, but also are described as delaying their decent in order to clear out their landing zone and even doing strafing runs before setting down. So it kind of makes sense that they function more similar to storm ravens or storm fangs than drop pods.

Feel free to give it a read yourself:
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Dreadclaw
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Kharybdis_Assault_Claw

Um, did you actually read this? Quick excerpt:

The Dreadclaw operates much like its Imperial counterpart. During a planetary assault it hurtles through the atmosphere like a man-made meteor, until at a certain pre-planned altitude its retro rockets kick in and slow its descent to a speed survivable by Astartes (Though not necessarily by normal humans)

That sounds like a drop pod to me, because Dreadclaws are drop pods. That's why they've always used the same DROP POD ASSAULT rules as loyalist drop pods, except they can move after they deploy. They've been that way since 3rd, and haven't broken anything.

But I understand where you're coming from. You don't want units from outside of your codex affecting the balance of the units in the codex. That's why I suggested that Death Guard should just not be able to have Dreadclaws. Dropping en masse in drop pods definitely doesn't sound like something Death Guard would do. But I don't think you have to worry about Death Guard paying a "pod tax" on their codex units. If the combination of Plague Marines and Dreadclaws is too strong, I'm sure it'll be the Dreadclaws that are "nerfed into the ground", as you say. That's something gw loves to do to anything fw.

But I ask you to look at this from the other side. Death Guard have their own codex, full of Death Guard specific units. Meanwhile, the Undivided Legions are all stuck in one codex together, and all of the Legions that don't have "Black" in their name are just picking up those guys scraps, because gw thinks every Undivided Legion should be Black Legion with a different paint scheme. Using fw units is one of the few ways we can try to differentiate ourselves from them and actually have an army that looks like it should in the fluff. And it would be nice if all of those fw units didn't get "nerfed into the ground". Martial Legacy is enough of a problem without throwing bad rules on to the few fw units we have that don't have that penalty.

If you just stop reading in the middle and cut off all the relevant parts, I have nothing to discuss with you.
Hint: there is a reason why a dreadclaw has 15" movement and the loyalist pod does not.

You clearly are not interested in a discussion, just in being right.

 Jidmah wrote:
If you just stop reading in the middle and cut off all the relevant parts, I have nothing to discuss with you.
Hint: there is a reason why a dreadclaw has 15" movement and the loyalist pod does not.

You clearly are not interested in a discussion, just in being right.

I read your first link and its obvious to me that a dreadclaw is basically a normal drop pod that can also move. They still do the whole "land fast and unload the payload" thing, but they can also be used to pierce the hull of some ships and to extract space marines from battle.

So to be fluff accurate, the dreadclaw should be a regular drop pod that can move and has melta cutters..

Oh and the reason why the imperium doesnt have dreadclaws even if theyre better than regular drop pods : They nuked the Forgeworld that was producing them.

So, please do explain how a loyalist pod is doing low altitude strafing runs?

How about the artwork that shows dreadclaws landing with active thrusters or nicely standing on undamaged ground rather than slamming into the ground and being stuck in crater like we see on loyalist artwork?

I'd also like to point out that the main reason why loyalists don't have dread claws is explained differently in the article which you claim to have read.

 Jidmah wrote:
So, please do explain how a loyalist pod is doing low altitude strafing runs?

How about the artwork that shows dreadclaws landing with active thrusters or nicely standing on undamaged ground rather than slamming into the ground and being stuck in crater like we see on loyalist artwork?

I'd also like to point out that the main reason why loyalists don't have dread claws is explained differently in the article which you claim to have read.

Can loyalists really do that? There is a difference between using their jets to slow down an approach with a low angle and a dreadclaw moving freely as it wants.

Drop pods of all kind have thrusters that they use to not obliterate their content on landing.

Dreadclaws land like normal drop pods THEN extend their legs and move around.

The launch bays and maintenance decks of Imperial warships outfitted with complements of Dreadclaws began to suffer from a suspiciously high number of fatal accidents and malfunctions, which, despite the reassurances provided by the Mechanicus Tech-priests, soon lead to rumours that the Dreadclaws' Machine Spirits were cursed in some way.

Dreadclaws today can be said to positively revel in the taking of the lives of those dedicated to the service of the False Emperor. The original Forge World which designed the Dreadclaw was eventually purged from Imperial records.

Seems like they are trying to make chaos pods regular transports that can deepstrike. Our pods actually get to do stuff after they come in unlike loyalist ones. Not that it makes up for units being able to disembark on the turn they come in.

However, I do think it would have been a little too strong if chaos got pods they could exit the turn they come in. 18 noise boys coming in with character support killed 1200 points of my army the other day with zero counter play. It was "fun".

The Salt Mine wrote:
Seems like they are trying to make chaos pods regular transports that can deepstrike. Our pods actually get to do stuff after they come in unlike loyalist ones. Not that it makes up for units being able to disembark on the turn they come in.

However, I do think it would have been a little too strong if chaos got pods they could exit the turn they come in. 18 noise boys coming in with character support killed 1200 points of my army the other day with zero counter play. It was "fun".

they can do it even without a pod tho. just take the ever present sorcerer and warptime them.

Jidmah wrote:If you just stop reading in the middle and cut off all the relevant parts, I have nothing to discuss with you.
Hint: there is a reason why a dreadclaw has 15" movement and the loyalist pod does not.

You clearly are not interested in a discussion, just in being right.

No, I was just attempting to explain my side of the argument. If I just wanted to be right I would have quoted the relevant sections of actual gw rulebooks that contradict your ideas of what a Dreadclaw is and does instead of sticking to your fanwiki. Sorry that offended you.

The Salt Mine wrote:Seems like they are trying to make chaos pods regular transports that can deepstrike. Our pods actually get to do stuff after they come in unlike loyalist ones. Not that it makes up for units being able to disembark on the turn they come in.

However, I do think it would have been a little too strong if chaos got pods they could exit the turn they come in. 18 noise boys coming in with character support killed 1200 points of my army the other day with zero counter play. It was "fun".

That probably has more to do with whatever disgusting combo was used to achieve that level of killing power. I personally hope that kind of thing stops being possible when we get our new codex.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No, I was just attempting to explain my side of the argument. If I just wanted to be right I would have quoted the relevant sections of actual gw rulebooks that contradict your ideas of what a Dreadclaw is and does instead of sticking to your fanwiki.

"I rather take sources out of context to falsify their meaning instead of providing actual proof to undermine my argument, despite me having it available."
Good job

And yes, I see such behavior as offensive. Good luck with your whining campaign.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
So, please do explain how a loyalist pod is doing low altitude strafing runs?

How about the artwork that shows dreadclaws landing with active thrusters or nicely standing on undamaged ground rather than slamming into the ground and being stuck in crater like we see on loyalist artwork?

I'd also like to point out that the main reason why loyalists don't have dread claws is explained differently in the article which you claim to have read.

Can loyalists really do that?

No, they can't, but both of the chaos pods are described as doing exactly that.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

That probably has more to do with whatever disgusting combo was used to achieve that level of killing power. I personally hope that kind of thing stops being possible when we get our new codex.

yeah, thats the "endless cacophony, VotLW, excruciating frequencies + prescience + raiments of the maraglivia" house of card combo that makes noise marines gak when they don't have all these buffs.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

No, they can't, but both of the chaos pods are described as doing exactly that.

i was talking about purely the fluff, not the tabletop rules.

They still act the same way, the only difference being that dreadclaws can go back to the battlebarge by themselves.

Jidmah wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No, I was just attempting to explain my side of the argument. If I just wanted to be right I would have quoted the relevant sections of actual gw rulebooks that contradict your ideas of what a Dreadclaw is and does instead of sticking to your fanwiki.

"I rather take sources out of context to falsify their meaning instead of providing actual proof to undermine my argument, despite me having it available."
Good job

And yes, I see such behavior as offensive. Good luck with your whining campaign.

That's not what I'm trying to do. I was just trying to show that Dreadclaws are drop pods. They've always been drop pods, and have had drop pod rules. I'd be perfectly happy if they were returned to their old rules if that's what is required to balance them with the units they can carry. So no turn 1 deep striking.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

That probably has more to do with whatever disgusting combo was used to achieve that level of killing power. I personally hope that kind of thing stops being possible when we get our new codex.

yeah, thats the "endless cacophony, VotLW, excruciating frequencies + prescience + raiments of the maraglivia" house of card combo that makes noise marines gak when they don't have all these buffs.

Which is the kind of thing that needs to go away. How can you possibly ever balance a unit when that number of strategems and psychic powers can be stacked on them?

The key difference between the Imperial Drop Pod and the Dreadclaw seems to come from the means of disembarking:

The Dreadclaw operates much like its present Imperial counterpart. During a planetary assault, it hurtles through the atmosphere like a man-made meteor until at a certain pre-determined altitude, its retro-rockets kick in and slow its descent to a speed survivable by Astartes (though not necessarily by normal humans).

The Dreadclaw does not extend its main claw arms until it has landed and is ready to begin deploying its troops, since the arms' mechanisms are delicate and could be damaged by the impact or the heat of atmospheric entry. Once on the ground, the assault boat's main hatch irises open and the squad or Chaos Dreadnought steps out on the surface. The four claws then extend, driving the Dreadclaw's armoured bulk upwards and revealing its deadly contents, who begin combat operations in their typically savage fashion.

This is notably different from the Drop Pod, that blows open it's sides right after impact to allow quick egress from the vehicle. This would be what allows immediate disembarkation from an Imperial Drop Pod compared to the slower means of exit in the Dreadclaw and Kharybdis.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:
yeah, thats the "endless cacophony, VotLW, excruciating frequencies + prescience + raiments of the maraglivia" house of card combo that makes noise marines gak when they don't have all these buffs.

Which is the kind of thing that needs to go away. How can you possibly ever balance a unit when that number of strategems and psychic powers can be stacked on them?

100% agreed. These wombo combos are nothing but bad for the game IMO.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No, I was just attempting to explain my side of the argument. If I just wanted to be right I would have quoted the relevant sections of actual gw rulebooks that contradict your ideas of what a Dreadclaw is and does instead of sticking to your fanwiki.

"I rather take sources out of context to falsify their meaning instead of providing actual proof to undermine my argument, despite me having it available."
Good job

Dude, know your sources. You're using the 40k wiki, which has boatloads of stuff on it posing as "canon" fiction when it is simply pulled out of someone's backside. Either use Lexicanum for your sources or accept that what is on the 40k wiki might not be entirely true.

I know this has gone out of fashion, but I don't have to accept anything without proof. Which clearly no one can or wants to deliver.

A wiki article with official artwork and numerous sources listed has vastly more credibility than people on dakka ranting about their favorite model getting bad rules or a clearly outdated wiki whose only source on this topic is a 404 error.

I'm fully open to being convinced otherwise, but not by "I'm right, you're wrong, source: me". But considering where the world is heading, it's not unsurprising that people see being asked to provide sources for their claims as personal attacks, or as a reason to personally attack people.

Edit: nevermind found rule on 1d4chan

When employed as a drop pod, the claws serve a different function, deploying after landing to right the Dreadclaw and raise its bulk off the ground in order to rapidly deploy its passengers without exposing the vehicle's vulnerable interior to enemy fire.

Unlike more conventional drop pods, the Dreadclaw is capable of taking off again after landing. Although less maneuverable in a planet's atmosphere than a purpose designed aircraft, it can be used to affect re-deployment in battle as well as perform rapid extractions to planetary orbit, a vital advantage given the raiding activities of many Chaos warbands.

Imperial Armour 13: Warmachines Of The Lost And The Damned: page 89. Emphasis mine.

Special rules:
Assault Vehicle
Deep Strike
Drop Pod Assault
Heat Blast
Daemonic Possession

Heat Blast has two profiles: Deep Strike and Fire Sweep. Deep Strike being a flamer type attack that hits everything within 3+d3 with a S6 AP5 hit with no cover saves, vehicles being hit on their weakest armour value, taking effect immediately after the model deploys using the Deep Strike rule. That's how Dreadclaws use their melta-cutters and engines to clear the landing area on arrival.

That's how Dreadclaws functioned previously: exactly like a conventional drop pod, with the addition of the Heat Blast (Deep Strike) rule. Then they function as Flyer with Hover Mode (which starts off as hovering after it has arrived from Deep Strike). It is possible that this has been changed for balance reasons, or they just worded the rules incorrectly.