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For gangs in the 40k lore (Van Saar, Orlock, etc...) how big are they actually? A hive consists of trillions of dudes and dudetts. Are they hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands???

As with other aspects of the 40k verse (population of Eldar craftworlds, size of the Imperial Guard etc), GW should wisely stay away from writing down concrete numbers.
Whenever they do so the number inevitably comes across as either ridiculously small or ridiculously huge.

usmcmidn wrote:
For gangs in the 40k lore (Van Saar, Orlock, etc...) how big are they actually? A hive consists of trillions of dudes and dudetts. Are they hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands???

id say well into the millions for the HOUSES of Van Saar, Orlock ect, but the number of actually involved in gang activity at any one time would be less, though thiers a arguement about where the gang stops and the "respectable" house starts.

Yep, fiction writers should stay away from numbers. And millions for the great houses of Necromunda is a given.

Eh I'd wager we'll never get concrete numbers for them. It's hard to even envision the size and structure of the Hives


Plus don't forget many of the Gangs operate at multiple levels. The mid-tier gangers might be well organised with formal draft and numbers, whilst gangs in the underhive might not even be formally registered or accounted for. Plus there's every chance of hivequakes and such isolating groups of the gangs or sects splintering off to form subgroups and such.

Suffice to say their numbers are significant within the Hive, but not dominant.

 Esmer wrote:
GW should wisely stay away from writing down concrete numbers.
Whenever they do so the number inevitably comes across as either ridiculously small or ridiculously huge.

Ageed 100%.

The only recent hard numbers we have for Necromunda is the rulebook where it says an aborted attempt at a census got as far as counting 1 billion in the upper levels of Trazior. That is the upper class section, so I would imagine the normal hive city levels would house multiple billions.

The question then is how many people in the Underhive levels of each hive on Necromunda. The reason is that Necromunda and most hive worlds are devastated ecologically and rely on food imports (at least for the upper classes) to survive. The lower classes have to subsist on recycled humans, fungus farms, and other such local food. However the Underhive is supposed to be urban anarchy or wasteland with only scattered settlements scraping a living out of sight of what passes for law and order in the Hive City levels. That means the population density may be lower as the people cannot rely on any House food distribution channels.

Then the gangs exist as a parasitic ruling class on top of the average Underhiver who is not a ganger. Also the new Necromunda seems to show the gangs that players play as having some links to the Houses, so they are already a step above a random bunch of nobodies that calls themselves a gang.

I'd imagine if it was in reality, it would exist similar to the gang structures in places like Los Angeles, where lots of gangs have the same name and colours as others, but are relatively disorganised, and have their own feuds and alliances in their particular areas.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I'd imagine if it was in reality, it would exist similar to the gang structures in places like Los Angeles, where lots of gangs have the same name and colours as others, but are relatively disorganised, and have their own feuds and alliances in their particular areas.

Agreed, especially in the Underhive where there are likely many smaller gang bosses who rule larger areas, but who might only give a casual glance upward at the higher mid-tier formal gang structure. Similarly the upper gang likely only glances at the lower ones if they want something specific or if the lower ones are causing trouble for them. There's a lot of room for power struggles and such within the gangs not just between them.

Reading the lore many of the gangs are very individual; rising around keystone leaders and ruling their own turf even if they are of the same parent gang.

So Van Saar sell their weapons to the IG.... do they have spaceships used for trading ???

usmcmidn wrote:
So Van Saar sell their weapons to the IG.... do they have spaceships used for trading ???

House Van Saar doesn't. They'll either be collected from the the Ring of Selen space station or shipped out by whatever Noble House made the deal.

None of the Clan Houses have starships or off world assets. They are explicitly forbidden from having them as detailed in the Necromunda Rulebook. House Helmawr derives much of his power from control of shipping rights. The Noble Houses of the spire though seem to have offworld assets as the rulebook describes their nobles as spending much of their time on offworld estates, rarely deigning to visit their Necromunda holdings.

Does House Helmawr ever have other gang house on their ships? ? ? How do other gangs pop up on other planets other than Necromunda.

usmcmidn wrote:
Does House Helmawr ever have other gang house on their ships? ? ? How do other gangs pop up on other planets other than Necromunda.

Each clan house has some connections with one of the Great Houses of Necromunda, who would at least have the means to get some folks off-world. Goliath has House Greim, who supplies the majority of military tithes. Escher has House Ulanti, who owns the moon and handles much of the off-world shipping contracts and pharma manufacturing. Orlock has House Ran Lo, who controls most banking and debt management. And Van Saar has both House Helmawr, masters of keeping the Imperium out of local affairs, and House Catallus, deal-makers and negotiation extraordinaires.

For any one of these it would be easy to slip two or three dozen gangers off-world to at least make a presence elsewhere, but in general, House Helmawr is pretty strict that what happens on Necromunda, stays on Necromunda. And for the most part all of the other Great Houses, Clan Houses, and Guild Houses are happy with that arrangement.

It's important to realise that for the most part the Gangs are very much focused just on their world of Necromunda. Sure they could get off world, but to what gain? They've basically just no interest in leaving or striking out enmass to have a powerbase off-world.

Heck it might even be that the idea hasn't even really occurred to them. The lower ranks are still underhive to mid-hive people whilst spaceships are for the lords and ladies far above. Necromunda, for all its horrors, is their world.

 Overread wrote:
It's important to realise that for the most part the Gangs are very much focused just on their world of Necromunda. Sure they could get off world, but to what gain? They've basically just no interest in leaving or striking out enmass to have a powerbase off-world.

Heck it might even be that the idea hasn't even really occurred to them. The lower ranks are still underhive to mid-hive people whilst spaceships are for the lords and ladies far above. Necromunda, for all its horrors, is their world.

All this talk of spaceships is pure nonsense and propaganda. Everyone knows the Hive extends endlessly until that far off dome where the Emperor sits.

In the novel Terminal Overkill the gangs are portrayed as being a couple dozen members large or so. Each vying for territory within their own little sectors.

I think the analogy to modern gangs such as those in Los Angeles is a great comparison - except on Necromunda they're completely overt.

Although the gangs we play in the tabletop game are closer to paramilitary organisations than simply stand alone gangs.
IMO gang houses (or another patron) directly supplies the gangs with equipment under the table, to encourage fighting between the gangs of rival houses.
In this sense the gang warfare is more like a very disorganised "hotwar" such Vietnam or Korea than merely gangs making their own living.

Most of the novels tend to focus on smaller gangs in the unerhive or on single or small groups of characters. Basically emulating the story side of the games the game plays out. The upper ranks of the gangs are pretty much mysterious powerful groups that pull strings in the background.

An Escher gang might take orders from on high - but could just as easily end up fighting another Escher gang for territory, revenge, power or because both are being manipulated by higher ups having a personal disagreement of their own.

Gangs vary, and wildly so.

The individual houses easily number in the hundreds of millions.

A gang might be merely 10 people. It might also be comprised of thousands, given time and success. The actual game of Necromunda is a pretty poor lens in that regard, as we’re really only playing with newcomers.

Consider Slate of House Orlock. He heads up a massive paramilitary force. But Wee Davey, your leader, might only have six or seven goons, each of whom are of variable disposability.

Then there’s Gangs splitting. Some retain loyalty (think Dark Angels and Ultramarine successors), others go entirely their own way.

This will likely vary from House to House as well. House Orlock seem to have tighter binds than Escher. Cawdor are the next book out, and I expect that to be a bit more enlightening, as they’re the most populace house, and are bound by a single Faith (though there may be interpretations of that faith, just as we get ‘flavours’ of major real world religions).

Would Van Saar, Orlock, etc.... gangs be in other hives around the Imperium?

Also since Van Saar and House Helmawr are "friends" would it be safe to say that some Van Saar (traditional OG gangers) could be used as security for those ships? ? ?

So my headcannon my hive on my planet has OG Van Saar on it due to trading.... Yes or no? ? ?

Strictly speaking, no.

Whilst it’s possible for some House members from Necromunda to be on other planets as representatives, the Houses themselves are native to Necromunda. And if going off World to arrange trade, one suspects Helmawr would provide the protection, as he does so strictly control the slices of the pie.

Different planets will have different noble houses, and will show at least some of the variety of Necromunda (barring Van Saar, Escher and Goliath, as they’re all quite unique in terms of culture and definition).