Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am the same. My faith in the Emperor, shattered at Monarchia.

What other Gods in the warp would satisfy me besides the Pantheon?

What could the Emperor have done differently with me?

‘Since then I have crusaded across his empire for over a century, raising icons and faiths in his image – and only now he objects? After a hundred years, only now am I told that all I’ve done is wrong?’

Magnus kept his silence. The doubt he felt shone through his narrowed eye.

‘Magnus,’ Lorgar smiled as he saw the emotion on his brother’s face, ‘only the truly divine deny their divinity. It’s written thus in countless human cultures. He never denied his godhood when he first came to Colchis to take me into the stars. You were there. He witnessed weeks of celebrations in his honour, never once rebuking me for lauding him as a god. And since then? He has watched me crusade for him, never saying a word about what I’ve done. Only now, at Monarchia, did he bring down his wrath. When he decided my faith had to be broken, after more than a century.’

I mean the Heresy would have happened regardless one way or the other. Keeping Lorgar loyal would have meant the rot would have spread just through Erebus and Kor Phaeron as well as their followers exclusively rather than the Word Bearers as an entire legion. It might have taken longer but as long as Erebus continues his role in stealing the Anathame blade and having it wound Horus, the Heresy would have occurred.

Also, as far as other warp gods, I'm pretty sure there aren't many that would draw Lorgar or would actively seek him out as a follower. Gork and Mork are exclusively Ork gods, the Eldar Pantheon barring Cegorach is dead and Lorgar remains a human supremacist. So barring some minor warp deity, I don't think he would find any other ones tbh, at least given what knowledge of Gods we have are present in the warp.

Given that Lorgar was always so focused on himself and his role in propagating the Emperor as a God, it's hard to tell how the Emperor could have convinced him to move away from world-building cathedrals in his name to acting like a general. I think the best way would have been to tell him about the urgency behind the Great Crusade and how he needed the galaxy under a united human front in preparation for both the Heresy and the inevitable power vaccuum left by the Age of Strife. I hesitate to have the Emperor reveal knowledge of Chaos given that this was what turned Lorgar against him, but given the context of the Emperor to do so, I think it would be right since Lorgar gets to keep his "special" position in knowing the truth which was always something he liked lording over others with.

I come right up to you I look you dead in the eyes and then
Hand you a snickers! Cause you aren’t yourself when your hungry!

Shoot yourself. You aren't a evil person but your childhood on Monarchia damaged you in a way that is beyond fixing. If it hadn't been the Chaos Gods that led you astray it would have been some other meme cause. Xenos maybe.

You are a broken thing, just like Angron and Curze, and the responsible thing for the Emperor to have done would be to kill you quickly and mercilessly. But the Emperor is kind of a idiot so, you'll have to take the initiative here. Vent yourself out to space and the lives of countless billions will be spared.

I think it is pretty well established that the HH would not have happened, or at least would not have turned out like it did, if the Emperor wasn't a colossal dick.

"Logar, I am not a god. I am a servant of Humanity. So are you. Stop looking for something to worship and instead serve Humanity."

 LorgarWasRight wrote:


What could the Emperor have done differently with me?

Spent more time and effort on the people he intends to hand near-unlimited power to.

Specifically; long enough to register that the 'old faith' of Colchis (details of which Lorgar has no reason to conceal if asked) is suspiciously familiar and that Kor Phaeron is a former hierophant of that faith.

The Heresy in some form is probably inevitable but if you want to delay or minimise it, lightly incinerating Kor Phaeron and Erebus would be a good place to start.

Step 1: Slap lorgar

Step 2: Remove Kor Phaeron

Step 3: Put lorgar in a room with the collected works of enlightenment values. Especially about secularism / even go so far potentially as to introduce him to laicité as a concept

Step 4: invite perturabo in that and let him teach these values.

Step 5: ....

Step 6: Now you have a full blown revolution about values on your hands but atleast not as chaotic a problem.

Step 7: Get anyways fethed because Warp

I think Lorgar, along with Angron, best illustrates the Emperor's failure with his sons. He didn't seem to grasp Angron's rather simple concept of loyalty above all else, leading to him pulling him away from his people instead of letting him die with them and causing massive resentment.

With Lorgar I think people are right that he was broken before the Emperor found him. However, given the Emperor's knowledge of Chaos it's really stupid that he didn't immediately notice all the Chaos influence from his home planet. Similarly, it seems really stupid the Emperor didn't notice such obvious signs as the prevalence of the number 9 in the sorcery-focussed Thousand Sons or the number 7 in Mortarion's legion, but I think that's down to over-eager authors trying to be too clever.

The Emperor's inability to bond with and understand his creations is a major reason everything goes wrong. He creates a bunch of demi-gods, gives them control over the most powerful military in the galaxy but fails to even check if any of them are maybe a little bit unsuited for the role.

He doesn't seem to understand human psychology very well.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
He doesn't seem to understand human psychology very well.

I think this is a result of being immortal and effectively being post-human in many ways. Hard to connect with people who can't fathom the bigger picture and whose lifespans rarely go past 100. Doesn't help he's used to getting his way constantly with psychic glamour so having to use actual social skills is something he isn't used to doing.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think it is pretty well established that the HH would not have happened, or at least would not have turned out like it did, if the Emperor wasn't a colossal dick.

And if the Emperor didn't have a colossal dick, there would be no primarchs,

Sorry, had to make that one!

 LorgarWasRight wrote:
I am the same. My faith in the Emperor, shattered at Monarchia.

What other Gods in the warp would satisfy me besides the Pantheon?

What could the Emperor have done differently with me?

‘Since then I have crusaded across his empire for over a century, raising icons and faiths in his image – and only now he objects? After a hundred years, only now am I told that all I’ve done is wrong?’

Magnus kept his silence. The doubt he felt shone through his narrowed eye.

‘Magnus,’ Lorgar smiled as he saw the emotion on his brother’s face, ‘only the truly divine deny their divinity. It’s written thus in countless human cultures. He never denied his godhood when he first came to Colchis to take me into the stars. You were there. He witnessed weeks of celebrations in his honour, never once rebuking me for lauding him as a god. And since then? He has watched me crusade for him, never saying a word about what I’ve done. Only now, at Monarchia, did he bring down his wrath. When he decided my faith had to be broken, after more than a century.’

With hindsight The Emperor could have let his sons in on the even bigger plan, or just kept his own hubris in check.

But, with Lorgar, he was well down the path of his own zealotry, a really small rebuke by his father would have made him start questioning his faith so.....a bolt round between Lorgars eyes and exterminatus of Colchis would have been a great help.

Remember that the Emperor was planning for the Astartes to thin their own numbers via fratricide, and then have the Custodes polish off the survivors.

Nurglitch wrote:
Remember that the Emperor was planning for the Astartes to thin their own numbers via fratricide, and then have the Custodes polish off the survivors.

AFAIK that is strictly fan theory, was there confirmation somewhere?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Remember that the Emperor was planning for the Astartes to thin their own numbers via fratricide, and then have the Custodes polish off the survivors.

AFAIK that is strictly fan theory, was there confirmation somewhere?

The story First Lord of the Imperium.

Nurglitch wrote:
The story First Lord of the Imperium.

Except he states at the end it was all a lie, sooo...

 Grimskul wrote:
I mean the Heresy would have happened regardless one way or the other. Keeping Lorgar loyal would have meant the rot would have spread just through Erebus and Kor Phaeron as well as their followers exclusively rather than the Word Bearers as an entire legion. It might have taken longer but as long as Erebus continues his role in stealing the Anathame blade and having it wound Horus, the Heresy would have occurred.

Or, you know, he could have them shot. Tell Lorgar his old religion is evil and the faithful are damned and need to be purged, done. He already did a big purge once, what's one more time?

 Grimskul wrote:
Given that Lorgar was always so focused on himself and his role in propagating the Emperor as a God, it's hard to tell how the Emperor could have convinced him to move away from world-building cathedrals in his name to acting like a general.

Simple. Don't give him opportunity to. Tell him before he can build any the 'demons' must be destroyed, them point him at orks/rangdans/eldar/whatever. Leave compliance to actually competent people like Rob, Perturabo, or Corax, use dumb primarchs for dirty stuff.

I won't. Blood for the Blood God.

 Irbis wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
The story First Lord of the Imperium.

Except he states at the end it was all a lie, sooo...

And you believe Malcador when he says he's lying?

Just have his Legion folded into the others and use Lorgar for something he is actually good at, namely rallying support for the Emperor. Lorgar never wanted to be a general, why force a square peg in a round hole?

Nurglitch wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
The story First Lord of the Imperium.

Except he states at the end it was all a lie, sooo...

And you believe Malcador when he says he's lying?

So if Malcador isn't lying, he must be lying when he says he's lying, but then he's telling the truth so he must be lying!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
He doesn't seem to understand human psychology very well.

He does and doesn't. Ask him to manipulate a society over centuries, and he's your guy.

Ask him to speak to a mundane person in a non-creepy fashion and....well, about his best effort to date was The Last Church, where he didn't exactly cover himself in success.


The problem is he has the same flaws as his 'sons' Magnus and Horus' ego, Johnson's inability to interact with people as anything other than lord-and-master, Alpharius obsession with secrets and trust issues and Lorgar's absolute conviction that he-is-right.

One of the key takeaways from the Heresy series was that each Chaos God already had their influence on many legions,

I'd argue that , ultimately , the Emperor absolutely understands human psychology. He brings order to chaos, with the unification wars. Humans crave order, and , as Oli says, crave something to believe in. Emperor replaces religion with a belief in order.

By the time of the Siege he's mobilised an entire race to fight the greatest battle in all history against impossible odds.

I feed you an extra Corpse Ration bar before your pod gets yeeted, causing it to be slightly too heavy and burn up on re-entry.

What could the Emperor have done differently with me?

Not been a douche. The Emperor could have just let him serve in his own way. He wanted to defeat chaos by removing religion but that was never going to work anyway, Khrone for example doesn't even want worship he just wants war...and the Emperor gave him plenty of that. If the Emperor had cracked down on the people who deserved it like Konrad Curze and Angron (why would you give these nut jobs a legion? Fact they are psycho killers wasn't a give away it was a bad idea?). Honestly I think Lorgar would have been loyal if he was treated at least fairly, he was not.

 alextroy wrote:
"Logar, I am not a god. I am a servant of Humanity. So are you. Stop looking for something to worship and instead serve Humanity."

THIS!

Pretty much a capsule version of what i was going to say, i'd add in that the big e should have told lorgar and all the primarchs the truth about the chaos gods. Maybe fulgrim would have realized what was with the laer and never picked up that damn sword.

How did Kor Phaeron escape the Emperor's notice ?

Erebus was relatively low enough in rank to have escaped the Emperors notice But Kor was the number Two of the world bearers legion.

Emps was a big-picture guy who barely cared about the Primarchs as individual entities, let alone anyone beneath them. He didn't even care about Lorgar's worship except until it was interfering with results. Also the size of the Imperium was never as large as Emps' ego; he probably thought stealing the Primarchs was Chaos' last gasp and he had overcome them.