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2021/01/12 15:44:24
Subject: A pondering on the men of iron, stone and gold.
Anyone (probably everyone) considered the anecdotal tale(s) has some resemblance to the Necron (men of iron), Craftworlds (men of (gem)stone), and the men of gold (no explanation required).
Utter speculation and going nowhere but I thought I'd leave it here.
2021/01/12 15:54:35
Subject: A pondering on the men of iron, stone and gold.
They were AI constructs created by man, the rebellion of which ushered in the age of darkness.
I got that from the lore vids I've listened to, as stated utter speculation. I'd love to know more detail if you have, as the lore vids talked of it as more of an anecdotal tale as opposed to factual specific events. I'm not in a position of knowledge on the subject to really make anything more than a guess or assumption but much like the real world scenario of taking the bible at it's literal words, rather than a way to communicate with those who's history had/has been passed down via an oral tradition. With so many hints to our world history tied up in the lore I thought I'd ask.
For example, Gullimans stepping in and taking control/forming a second empire? Has many similarities to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches.
Pure speculation on my part but something I enjoy mulling over while painting.
2021/01/12 16:10:56
Subject: A pondering on the men of iron, stone and gold.
Good speculation, and fun to think about, but I always interpreted it as the following:
- Men of Gold (Regular humans, with "hearts of gold" ) - Men of Stone ("Dumb" computers, with hearts of silicon) - Men of Iron ("Smart" computers, with hearts as cold as iron)
It's a mix of metaphor and literalism, with a HUMANS>MACHINES propaganda bend thanks to the Butlerian Jihad machine rebellion.
One thing I've always wondered was what the machine perspective on the whole thing was. In my ancient past, I've made posts speculating that the machine uprising was tied to psykers, and trying to "protect humanity from itself" by rounding up all these newly-birthing psykers, which ofc humanity couldn't tolerate and interpreted as an attack against all humans.
But that's literal pie-in-the-sky headcanon.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/12 16:11:21
2021/01/12 16:14:06
Subject: A pondering on the men of iron, stone and gold.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Good speculation, and fun to think about, but I always interpreted it as the following:
- Men of Gold (Regular humans, with "hearts of gold" )
- Men of Stone ("Dumb" computers, with hearts of silicon)
- Men of Iron ("Smart" computers, with hearts as cold as iron)
It's a mix of metaphor and literalism, with a HUMANS>MACHINES propaganda bend thanks to the Butlerian Jihad machine rebellion.
One thing I've always wondered was what the machine perspective on the whole thing was. In my ancient past, I've made posts speculating that the machine uprising was tied to psykers, and trying to "protect humanity from itself" by rounding up all these newly-birthing psykers, which ofc humanity couldn't tolerate and interpreted as an attack against all humans.
But that's literal pie-in-the-sky headcanon.
Great to hear/see your speculation on it, again many real-world connotations. Your theory makes sense, much like it probably wouldn't be a good idea to give machines that much autonomy to act in today's society Nothing wrong with pie in the sky, gravity and a circular planet was pie on the sky at one point in time!
Edit: going downt the Butlerian Jihad rabbit hole now ty!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/12 16:15:35
2021/01/12 16:19:51
Subject: A pondering on the men of iron, stone and gold.
Squidworth wrote: Great to hear/see your speculation on it, again many real-world connotations. Your theory makes sense, much like it probably wouldn't be a good idea to give machines that much autonomy to act in today's society Nothing wrong with pie in the sky, gravity and a circular planet was pie on the sky at one point in time!
Thanks, though I wouldn't worry too much "in real life" about machine rebellion or increased machine autonomy. The types of AI rebellion that make for good sci-fi reading are not really that likely to happen, given our current trajectory with machines.
IRL, every time we make an advancement, it stops being interesting. Watson played Jeopardy, but everyone understood how he operated so they were like "meh." Neural networks learn at unprecedented rates, defeating starcraft opponents with striking ease at times - but we know generally what's happening under the hood, so meh. The precise actions taken by the agent aren't known, but why it is doing those actions, the process it used to learn that those were the actions to take, are understood.
The "machine = mysterious, unforeseen heartless foe " trope is awesome writing, but by the time we develop self-aware intelligences (if we bother to do that; seems like a waste tbf) we'll understand how their awareness works and it won't be mysterious or spooky anymore.
2021/01/12 16:35:29
Subject: Re:A pondering on the men of iron, stone and gold.
There aren't many 'primary sources'. Below is from the 3rd Edition Rulebook -
Spoiler:
The Journal of Keeper Cripias
Dated in the year of our Emperor 993.M41
For seventy long years I have laboured as Master Finnias laboured before me, and Master Shadiel before him, through eight hundred and thirty six generations of Keepers of the Library Sanctus of Terra. It has been our endeavour, our life-long aim, to compile a history of the majesty of the Human Race from the archives which are our worship. In his benevolent wisdom, the Emperor has granted me the singular and great honour and pleasure of completing this sacred task in my own lifespan.
Through copious notes and periods of cogitation I have pieced together the history and pre-history of Mankind into the greatest antiquities of time. Here I have revealed my findings for the first time, for as it was in the time of the First Keeper, Solomon, our knowledge has passed by oratory and not written word. However, in these changing times there are none worthy to succeed me now, and so it is fit and rightful that I, the Last Keeper, Cripias, records our Great Works to these pages for eternity.
And so it was that in the First Age of Man, the Golden Age, there is the Emperor Unseen and unheralded he prepares the Old Earth for the coming of Mankind and he watches and he waits. He is joined by the First Men of the Golden Race, fine of limb and strong of mind, yet still the Emperor is content to wait in shadow. To watch and learn from Mankind, the Golden Race spreads across the face of Old Earth, multiplying and establishing Order and Civilisation on the anarchy of Nature. In time, the Second Men of the Stone Race appear, and in their wake come many miracles and marvels of technology that strengthen to Sone Men’s power, but are also harnessed by those of th Golden Race. Although physically inferior to the Golden Race, and not of philosophical temperament and disposition, the Stone Men have in them the conjurations of great artifices and mechanisms. In time, the Golden Race looks to the stars to expand their dominion. The Stone Race builds great machines of power that send both Men of Stone and Men of Gold into the Ether. However, once the burgeoning race of Mankind has taken its first steps into the greater cosmos, the Golden Race dwindles in influence through their dependence on the artifices of the Stone Race. This the Golden Age comes to an end and the Stone Men prevail.
Our calculations, from the most distant and archaic records, and through constellar comparison, have dated the end of the Golden Age at 20.000 years previous to our present time.
For the next 5.000 years, the Stone Race lives through the Dark Age of Technology. Little can be determined from the Dark Age of Technology, for the majority of existing records concerning that period are gathered in the Librarius Omnis of Mars, and none outside the highest ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus can gain access past its most determined Guardians (Keeper Malrubius tried once, but to no avail. We have surmised that during the Dark Age of Technology, the Men of Ston create the Iron Men to help them in the building of their Great Empire. At first, the Iron Men are as servants, willing to do the bidding of their masters with no thoughts.
However, the Iron Men, as all creatures do, evolve and grow until they are the equal of the Stone Race and beside each other they set about conquering the galaxy. The Dark Age of Technology is an era of machines and artificial devices, used by the Stone Men, and later the Iron Men, in their endeavours. Many of the technical marvels that the Priesthood of Mars sustain can be traced to their origins in the Dark Age of Technology, and itt is at the end of this period that the great organisation know now as the Adeptus Mechanicus was founded. During the Dark Age of Technology, the austere ancestors of the Imperium’s Navis Nobilite are born, and through their unique prowess, mankind forges through the stars. Weapons of great destruction cow the aggression of alien enemies, pushing back the frontiers of Mankind’s dominions.
The end of the Dark Age of Technology is the most obscure region in mankind’s evolutionary tale. For whatever reasons and differences in ideology, the Stone Men and the Iron Men fell to warring with each other. The Iron Men are possessed of no Soul, an anathema to any true Man. The Stone Men in their final acts of self-preservation, annihilate the Iron Men who have turned from ally to foe, and even those of the Iron Race who retain their former loyalties ot theor one-time masters are destroyed in the fiery crucible of battle. Still the Emperor, in his eternal wisdom, awaits the moment to reveal the true path to Mankind’s destiny. Thus the start of the Age of Strife is heralded. The Age of Strife sees the collapse of the ancient Empire built by the Stone Men. Mankind is split asunder, there is no Race of Man, just warring factions contending with each other in the direst perils the galaxy could offer. Seeing humanity’s weakness, alien dominance grows in power oce again, the arms of the Stone Men left to ruin, the protection of the Iron Men destroyed in the last years of the Dark Age of Technology. For five millennia, the human race exists in the twilight of its former greatness, bickering and fighting for the scant resources to hand. With no guiding will, no manifest destiny of lordship, mankind is left in turmoil. Even Earth, the bedrock on which humanity’s Empire was founded is gripped in the throes of generation-long intercine war. The foul aliens who had been held back by the might of the Iron Men and the Stone Men surge forth from their havens and lairs, destroying mankind’s defences, killing or enslaving the Emperor’s wards. Mankind is engulfed by a plague of mutation, physical deviants and men possessed of psychic talents appear throughout the galaxy bringing more havoc with them. With no over-reaching authority, these lost souls and psykers sprawl unchecked across the human race. It is at this time that the Emperor reveals his true nature and sets about his plans of delivrance from anarchy.
For the last ten thousand years we have been in the glorious Age of the Imperium, the Reign of the Beneficent Emperor of Mankind. Using his vast intellect and knowledge of ages past, the Emperor creates a race of warriors to quell the warring factions on Earth, renaming our Homeworld Terra and affirming its place as the centre of the known galaxy. Having established ruleship over Mankind’s birthworld, the Emperor sets about to the re-creation of Mankind’s righteous fate. With his Legions of Space Marines, the Emperor leads the Great Crusade of Reconquest. It is a long and arduous war, but world after world, seing in the Emperor the rightful rule of mankind, falls to his service. The Space Marines, now numbered in their many thousands, establish outposts in the far reaches of the galaxy and from these bases on asteroids and moons and planet, launch forays into the darkness, bringing the Light and Word of the Emperor with them. Through this turmoil – the base treachery of the Warmaster and sacrifice of the Emperor, the contact with the noble offices of the Priesthood of Mars, the establishment of the Navis Nobilite and other noteworthy assemblages that we now take for granted as well as the purges of mutants and psykers – the Imperium is forged in blood and death, on a thousand thousand worlds the rightful and just rule of the Emperor is reasserted.
And so it is, ten thousand years since the Great Crusade we are able to live under the guiding Light of the Emperor, we have the guns of the Imperial Navy, Imperial Guard and Adeptus Astartes, to guard against betrayal and foul aliens.
But the stories do not end there. For in our research, the Keepers of the Library Sanctus on Terra have uncovered many forgotten secrets, hidden lore, tales of treachery and heroism. Although we have not become, by no means, omniscient, we know many things that should not be known. For example, who few outside of this stone chamber have learned of the Betrayal of Luther, the Curse of the Red Thirst, the dark shrouded founding of the Sisterhood. Who has recited such tales of woe as can be found in the Legacies of Gathalamor, the unseen mysteries concering the origins of the Space Marines Legions, the dark perils that await those who passed beyond the Gates of Varl, the names of the sinister architects of the Ymga Monolith.
2021/01/12 16:40:35
Subject: Re:A pondering on the men of iron, stone and gold.
The short story, Ancient Histories, and the Journal of Keeper Cripias both agree in one respect.
The Men of Stone were created by the Men of Gold, the original human race, to aid them in space travel. While they were lesser in character, according to Keeper Cripias, they were possessed of an ability to create a wide variety of technologies. This included the Men of Iron. According to Ancient Histories, they were possessed of a half-life, as opposed to the "true life" of Man.
In short, the Men of Stone are the STC.
Oculus Imperia goes into further detail in his video about this topic, suggesting that the Men of Stone may still exist, fragmented within the various printouts of the STCs.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/12 16:45:09
The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.
'ONCE, LONG AGO, Man lived on just one island. The broad oceans surrounded him and he believed himself alone. In time, Man's stature grew and he caught sight of other isles far off across the deep ocean. Since he had seen everything on his island, climbed every peak and looked under every stone, he became curious about the other islands and tried to reach them. He soon found the oceans too deep and cold for him to get far, not nearly a hundredth of the way to the next island. So Man returned and put his hand to other things for an age.
'But in time food and water and air ran short on Man's island and he looked to the far islands again. Because he could not bear the cold of the ocean deeps, he fashioned Men of Stone to go in his place, and the Stone Men fashioned Men of Steel to become their hands and eyes. And the Stone Men went forth with their servants and swam in the deep oceans. They found many strange things on the far islands, but none as strange or as wicked as the things that swam in the depths between them; ancient, hungry things older than Man himself.
'But these beasts of the deep hungered for the true life of Man, not the half-life of Stone, so the Stone Men swam unmolested. At first all was well and the Men of Stone planted Man's Seed on many islands, and in time Man learned to travel the oceans himself, hiding in Stone ships to keep out the cold and the hunger of the beasts. All was well and Men spread to many islands far across the ocean, such that some even forgot how they came to be there and that they ever came from just one island at all.'
Kron's tale wound on, telling of how the stone men became estranged from humanity by their journeys through the void. This led to a time of strife when the Men of Steel turned against their stone masters and mankind was riven asunder by wars. A thousand worlds were scoured by the ancient, terrible weapons of those days before the Men of Stone were overthrown, and a million more burned as flesh fought against steel. Worst of all, the beasts arose and were worshipped as gods by the survivors. Once proud and mighty, Man was reduced to a rabble of grovelling slaves. Finally one came who freed man from his shackles and showed him a new way to reach for the stars. This path was forged from neither stone nor steel but simple faith. Faith guarded Man from the beasts of the void as steel or stone could never do.
2021/01/12 17:23:23
Subject: A pondering on the men of iron, stone and gold.
Matt Swain wrote: Wasn't there a recent 40k product where what seemed to be a standard admech robot was in fact a fully sentient man of iron in disguise?
Spoiler:
UR-025 'Imperial Robot' from Warhammer Quest: Blackstone Fortress is a Man of Iron
2021/01/12 17:52:55
Subject: A pondering on the men of iron, stone and gold.
Matt Swain wrote: Wasn't there a recent 40k product where what seemed to be a standard admech robot was in fact a fully sentient man of iron in disguise?
Spoiler:
UR-025 'Imperial Robot' from Warhammer Quest: Blackstone Fortress is a Man of Iron
You absolute legend! It was/is mainly Oculus, ABP and Luetin who I've listened to, to build my understanding of the lore. Nice to see the text(s) they were referring to.
Thank you!
2021/01/12 19:05:26
Subject: Re:A pondering on the men of iron, stone and gold.
LaurieGoulding wrote:It could be interesting to look more at the Iron/Stone/Golden Men, except then we would be pre-Age of Strife and it wouldn't be anything to do with Warhammer 40,000 anymore. I'm not saying it's impossible, just unlikely at this stage that we will see a full series or anything like that. That's not really how GW operates.
Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation.
It's slightly frustrating when the authors do this - are we meant to treat this as canon or not?
LaurieGoulding wrote:Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge):
'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them.
I wonder if this is where the idea for the Excindio Battle-Automata came from?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/12 21:04:26
2021/01/12 21:38:45
Subject: Re:A pondering on the men of iron, stone and gold.
A ton of interesting stuff to muse over while painting, thank you peeps!
@Unit, would the machine's objective to eliminate psykers not tie in perfectly with the establishment of the black pylons to some degree then, a less 'brutal' way to achieve the same goal?
On another complete tangent does anybody have any idea what/who the dark mech is talking to in DOH at roughly 5min 55sec into the full video? We found you/unauthorized access is literally all you get.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/12 23:47:03
2021/01/13 17:31:20
Subject: A pondering on the men of iron, stone and gold.
I like the idea that the Men of iron were the STC but didn’t the men of Iron destroy the the STC’s, I suppose that it could have been an final act attempting mutual destruction.
I’ve always thought of it as the men of gold were the perpuals that didn’t exactly create the men of iron, that’s more metaphor for taking the men of stone from living in caves and taking them through the process of technical and social evolution. The men of iron were just as capable of science and innovation and started to outperform the perpetuals in some instances which is why the emperor oils never just re invent the lost tech from the golden age. The men of stone then created the men of iron and the rest is in documented history.
The men of gold were always able to stay on top though and lead humanity but immortality would make that easier
2021/01/13 19:58:29
Subject: A pondering on the men of iron, stone and gold.
In the cult mecanicus game (2018) they read from their holy book "Do not change your shape into another fork then a human. Lest you become like the men of iron" When somebody asks what the men of iron are he awnser that he does not know.
I do not remember the reason, weather it was redacted from the holy book or if it was incomplete. I found the dialogs in that game delightful. Especially how they belive spreading incess would remove the Necron threath. Then vox casters with holy prayer. And then later on just purging them with flame.
For the record I do not think men or iron, gold or stone are self explanatory as the OP post. I do how ever think that they are seperet from Eldar or Necrons. Although first generation Necrons had some influences with the machine spirit.
In the mecanicus game learning to much Necron information has a very bad ending. It starts innocent. And then you find models of the universe that do not follow the standard model. If you want to find out how it ends Google the ending on YouTube or play the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/13 20:02:47
Using the theory that the old one created many of the current species in the 40K universe for a specific reason, maybe the men of gold were the old ones and humans are the men of stone and humanities role was one of logistics and dinky work. Like in most fantasy humans are the basic design and the other aliens are like humans but with some adaptation like strength or dexterity. So maybe they didn’t make humans special because we did the boring work. Is said I. That quote that the men of stone helped the men of gold travel the galaxy