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Except they're almost always meant to be unearthed STC's, and usually take 100-500 years just to get AdMech approval. It's filthy peasants digging for scraps in the Roman ruins of Londinium and finding an intact glass cup, but on galactic scale.
Nowhere near the same tone or scale as pulling out whole armies of super-marines with technology that is more reliable, deadlier and basically on par with eldar stuff out of the hat.
This is finally the age where terminators are useful in game, and dreadnoughts, and i always loved terminators and dreadnoughts. But all i see now is a guy who got his arms surgically amputated and placed on his back, with some sort of surgical neck elongation to get his head in the right place. I love terminators, and i used to love firstborn, but the proportions are just janky. Gravis armour might suck in comparison, but its commonly available and looks sorta like a human.(*3).
You know a Termie's shoulderpads aren't actually his shoulders, right? The shoulders are under them, and then under the armour there. Seriously, every time I see comments like this I wonder if anyone has ever put together a Termie kit made in the last 15 years, because you'll notice they specifically addressed this issue when they remade them. If you want further proof, just look at the Abaddon mini, and how he is assembled- it might give you a clue as to why those shoulderpads are so high when building him.
Yes, I have built a termie in the last 15 years. That 2020 LE Librarian termie this past fall. His left arm pit connects to his suit above (and behind) his neckline! That ain't normal, even for modified super-soldiers....
Conclusion: He's lost his real arms & what I'm looking at are bionic arms connected to/part of his armor. Or GWs lost all sense of human anatomy. One of those two. I'll just go with the one that at least fits the setting.
Oh wow, yes- let's pick the most egregious example that kinda goes against what I am saying vs every other modern Termie mini...
Look at Abaddon, look at Typhus, heck- look at the basic Blightlords. You'll see their shoulders (note, not their shoulderpads) line up below their heads. GW specifically addressed this and even called it out in WD when the Termie kit was redone.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Insectum7 wrote:No sir, they are pretty blatantly, obviously, not at all on the same level. But we've seen this sort of bizarre attempt at equivalency from you before.
It really ain't objectively that way, dear.
I welcome you to prove me wrong. Bring your evidence.
I think you misunderstand - you're the one here claiming an objective fact. The evidence is on you to prove, my friend.
I've already posted it.
A whole new fleet of flying vehicles is new.
An awakening primarch is new.
New organs on new marines carrying new weapons are new
etc.
All of which is more newness at a much greater pace than has ever occurred in the setting/collection before. New units being slowly introduced over the years is radically different than an entirely new army springing up out of the blue, both in universe and in RL.
Razorbacks being introduced five millennia ago is a far cry from the massive Primaris rollout.
What observations would you like to bring to the table to counter this?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Cartoon skull masks compared to Chaplains and Night Lords? Talk about being in Egypt and swimming in Denial
They are styled differently, in a bad way.
Eh, they are somewhat different, I'll grant (well, some of the older Chaplain skulls are SERIOUSLY goofy, IMO). But the latter is, yet again, a subjective opinion. Just to hammer that home for you.
I never claimed their any objectivity here beyond the fact that they are styled differently. I could probably point to objective reasons why they look like edgelord hockey masks though.
Except they're almost always meant to be unearthed STC's, and usually take 100-500 years just to get AdMech approval. It's filthy peasants digging for scraps in the Roman ruins of Londinium and finding an intact glass cup, but on galactic scale.
Nowhere near the same tone or scale as pulling out whole armies of super-marines with technology that is more reliable, deadlier and basically on par with eldar stuff out of the hat.
The Razorback and Land Raider variants aren't STC fragments though. They're innovated constructs.
Sure, if ALL the innovations that had been made were STC fragments, I'd get it, but they ain't. Unless y'all are going to complain about Centurion suits, Thunderfire Cannons, Stormtalons, Stormravens, Hunters, Stalkers, Razorbacks, Land Raider variants - basically anything that doesn't crop up in the Heresy, you're being selective about what you're accepting. And, you know what? You're welcome to be! If some things just don't fit what you want, you don't have to like them! You don't have to think they fit.
But don't for a second think that's anything other than your opinion on the matter. It's not objective, however you spin it.
Deadnight wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ah, are you talking about how the Phobos Marine left shoulders are slightly larger and don't take shoulder pads on them?
Nope, I mean the ammo bit for the gun.
Infiltrator 'million scopes' and 'microwave on top' bits.
I had hoped to use the stalker bolt rifle ammo bits from the intercessor kit instead but the 'bite point' is different where they clip on to thr gun.
Not huge mind, and nothing that can't be dealt with by a hobby knife but annoying nonetheless.
Ah, that's a shame - can't say I've tried doing that one myself.
Insectum7 wrote:No sir, they are pretty blatantly, obviously, not at all on the same level. But we've seen this sort of bizarre attempt at equivalency from you before.
It really ain't objectively that way, dear.
I welcome you to prove me wrong. Bring your evidence.
I think you misunderstand - you're the one here claiming an objective fact. The evidence is on you to prove, my friend.
I've already posted it.
A whole new fleet of flying vehicles is new. An awakening primarch is new. New organs on new marines carrying new weapons are new etc.
Wow! You posted a list! Now show me where any of that is objective? I can sit here and list every new unit and armour mark and Chapter as signs of "innovation", but that would still just be my interpretation of "innovation". I want you to prove to me that those ones you've listed are objectively "innovative" and that the others aren't.
Whole fleet of vehicles? Already done, I've listed a bunch up earlier. The Stormtalon, Stormhawk, Stormraven, and the various Land Speeders (such as the Storm) are all flying too. Vulkan awakened in M32. The actual act of a Primarch awakening just feels like a subjective line you didn't want crossing, not some fundamental wrong - which brings me right back to this being you *personal opinion* on the matter. New gear and Marines? May I introduce you to the Minotaurs Chapter, a "new" Chapter who's famous for having brand new, top of the line gear?
Look mate, all the stuff you're describing (as you allude to later) has already happened in the setting. You accepted it before because it fitting with your own ideas of what was allowed in the setting. Now, that's incongruous to what the Primaris are - and if so, fine. You clearly just don't like them for your own reasoning. I'm not here to tell you that you're wrong, or that you don't like "True 40k" or that you're deluded, because that's nonsense. But you aren't the arbiter on what's objectively bad or what doesn't belong in the setting either.
So, I say again - learn to understand that what YOU see as a step too far doesn't mean that's objectively the case here. Unless you can, you know, empirically PROVE this, quantifiably and with actual cold hard logic instead of "this is different but I can't demonstrate how", it's a subjective opinion - one you'll just have to deal with me having a different one.
All of which is more newness at a much greater pace than has ever occurred in the setting/collection before. New units being slowly introduced over the years is radically different than an entirely new army springing up out of the blue, both in universe and in RL.
Razorbacks being introduced five millennia ago is a far cry from the massive Primaris rollout.
Again, all you've just made there are claims that "this is radically different!" and "this is a far cry away!" - if so, show me objectively! You're saying that you believe there to be a difference, but can you objectively prove it? Can you put it in numbers? Can you distill it into something irrefutable? As I said - *you* feel it's a bridge too far, you're welcome to that. But don't act like other people can't cross that bridge.
What observations would you like to bring to the table to counter this?
The fact you still haven't accounted for other people not feeling like it's a far cry away.
I never claimed their any objectivity here beyond the fact that they are styled differently.
"in a bad way" - you very much did seem to claim that. Just to round out - if you think they look bad, that's totally valid, in the same way I can claim old marines look bad. You're more than entitled to that opinion. But it doesn't make it objectively true.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/25 11:33:25
If you google Terminator Armor Diagram you can see some cutaways that illustrate how the squad works, actually. I think one of them is even official from the old SM codex after the kit was redone.
A whole new fleet of flying vehicles is new.
An awakening primarch is new.
New organs on new marines carrying new weapons are new
etc.
.
They're not flying vehicles. They're anti grav. And that's not new tech for the imperium. If anything it's anti grav space marine style, fueled by contempt because it punches the ground as it trundles along.
To be fair, to my semi unprofessional eye, primaris vehicle silhouettes are no more than slight modification to the basic rhino/predator chassis and the various primaris vehicles are no more than slight variations of each other, like the million and three variations of rhinos, dreadnoughts and predators. So one new design which is ike most sm kit, fairly modular.
I'll give you a new primarch. Except its not unprecedented either. morty and magnus also have models and vulkan and angron have both turned up several times in the lore prior to this. Besides, for twenty years players have dreamed of having a primarch introduced.
New organs is a thing - most of the new weapons are just variations and modifications of older ones. To be fair, there are plenty of bolter variations in existence that a few more boltnouns isn't something I personally find bothersome.
All of which is more newness at a much greater pace than has ever occurred in the setting/collection before. New units being slowly introduced over the years is radically different than an entirely new army springing up out of the blue, both in universe and in RL.
Razorbacks being introduced five millennia ago is a far cry from the massive Primaris rollout.
.
I think it's more perception than anything. Prior to primaris, marines got plenty stick for all the 'new stuff they'd get every codex, especially considering the 'stagnant tech' trope.
To be fair, in the lore, all the land gear (raiders, speeders etx) were all new stc finds in the lore. Them there's the Razorback, land raider crusader, predator weapon variations (in lore), and about three million rhino, terminator, power armour and dreadnought variations over the years. Its hardly a greater pace than what's come before to be fair.
Only thing different is gw now gives unique rules to things now; back in the day mks2-8 were aesthetic, nothing more. Nowadays, mk3 would have extra resilience against shooting, mk v would have logistics bonuses in campaigns, mk6 would be stealth armour etc.
Where I see the biggest issue is the 'suddeness' or all the new stuff. If there had been hints and rumours (more of the vignettes like in the old third ed sm codex- anyone remember that one?) In the lore for years preceding the rollout, if gully was rumoured to have 'had a plan' before fulgrim knifed him, and the codex was always merely 'phase 1', if cawl was tjere from third ed and waa an unknown, cypher like figure with an agenda we could get hooked on,then primaris would have been a long awaited realisation rather than a shock to thr system. But this requires years or decades of foreshadowing and a long, long term plan and I don't think it's fair to expect anyone to have this planned, whether creatives or businesses.
The vast majority of that "new stuff" for oldmarines was always described has having always been there, only off camera until now. Centurions were not new, they were just unseen up until that point. Same goes for Stalkers, Scout Speeders etc.
The only truly "new" units old SMs got were the Redeemer and Crusader LR variants, both being bodged together on the fly by enterprising Techmarines in the middles of warzones.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Grimtuff wrote: The vast majority of that "new stuff" for oldmarines was always described has having always been there, only off camera until now. Centurions were not new, they were just unseen up until that point. Same goes for Stalkers, Scout Speeders etc.
The only truly "new" units old SMs got were the Redeemer and Crusader LR variants, both being bodged together on the fly by enterprising Techmarines in the middles of warzones.
In fairness, insectum also spoke about things being introduced 'in the setting' which was why I mentioned new stuff in lore.
I mean hell, we can take that approach for primaris as well, considering cawl and a whole bunch of the first draft of primaris have 'always been there' in the background and 'off camera' as you put it, since m31.
And imo, retconning stuff 'that it was always there' is just lazy and creatively bankrupt. Just my opinion mind.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/25 18:47:53
Grimtuff wrote:The vast majority of that "new stuff" for oldmarines was always described has having always been there, only off camera until now. Centurions were not new, they were just unseen up until that point. Same goes for Stalkers, Scout Speeders etc.
Well, "always there" after the Heresy, so there was some kind of discovery or innovation between those times.
The only truly "new" units old SMs got were the Redeemer and Crusader LR variants, both being bodged together on the fly by enterprising Techmarines in the middles of warzones.
And the Razorback, which I think is explicitly described as a post-heresy creation? In fact, I think a lot of the Land Raider variants are post heresy bodge-jobs, such as the Ares.
Basically, point being, clearly the Imperium was innovating after the Heresy. As Deadknight alludes to, what I imagine the greatest cause of dissonance that all this stuff is "new and unheard of" is that it's new and unheard of to us, the players. Within the lore of the setting (which, again, is new and unheard of to us, the players) Cawl's been tinkering away at this for 10k years. That's pretty reasonable a time frame, even for a technologically stagnant Imperium. In a more progressive setting this might have been possible within a normal person's lifetime. In 40k, because of the technological stagnation, it takes 10,000 years.
I believe the reason it feels jarring and new to us is because we've not experienced the 10,000 years it took, and we got hit with a whole bunch of lore which came out of nowhere, and had to fill it's own blanks reactively. If you remove *when* the lore was added, I find that Primaris being developed entirely fit into the idea of a technologically stagnant Imperium, IMO.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/25 18:48:45
If you google Terminator Armor Diagram you can see some cutaways that illustrate how the squad works, actually. I think one of them is even official from the old SM codex after the kit was redone.
Seen that art when it was new. Doesn't change the odd arm placements on the physical models.
If you google Terminator Armor Diagram you can see some cutaways that illustrate how the squad works, actually. I think one of them is even official from the old SM codex after the kit was redone.
Seen that art when it was new. Doesn't change the odd arm placements on the physical models.
It does if you accept the diagram reflects the physical models, and I haven't been able to spot a difference at cursory inspection.
Insectum7 wrote:No sir, they are pretty blatantly, obviously, not at all on the same level. But we've seen this sort of bizarre attempt at equivalency from you before.
It really ain't objectively that way, dear.
I welcome you to prove me wrong. Bring your evidence.
I think you misunderstand - you're the one here claiming an objective fact. The evidence is on you to prove, my friend.
I've already posted it.
A whole new fleet of flying vehicles is new.
An awakening primarch is new.
New organs on new marines carrying new weapons are new
etc.
Wow! You posted a list! Now show me where any of that is objective?
The fact that you aren't capable of stating the contrary and having it align with the lore. Primaris, awakening (non daemon) primarch, and their equipment is a big ol' dump of new stuff.
I can sit here and list every new unit and armour mark and Chapter as signs of "innovation", but that would still just be my interpretation of "innovation". I want you to prove to me that those ones you've listed are objectively "innovative" and that the others aren't.
Whole fleet of vehicles? Already done, I've listed a bunch up earlier. The Stormtalon, Stormhawk, Stormraven, and the various Land Speeders (such as the Storm) are all flying too.
Vulkan awakened in M32. The actual act of a Primarch awakening just feels like a subjective line you didn't want crossing, not some fundamental wrong - which brings me right back to this being you *personal opinion* on the matter.
New gear and Marines? May I introduce you to the Minotaurs Chapter, a "new" Chapter who's famous for having brand new, top of the line gear?
Go ahead and list it out then, and list the approximate time in lore for which said innovations occurred as well as the magnitude of the effect of said innovations on the Space Marine faction. Different variations of power armor and bolters will exist, it's a big galaxy after all and there are thousands of forge worlds etc. producing stuff. And although minor variations will inevitably exist, almost none of them have made enough of a difference to effect how chapters, squads, etc. are represented in the rules.
You'll find that imperial innovation has been glacially slow, and more often than not completely isolated to the point where it has had little to no effect on the Space Marine faction as a whole.
Objectively.
As for the Minotaurs, new chapters get founded (and are killed off) all the time. No big deal there, as it has zero effect on the SM faction as a whole. New equipment such as newly manufactured bolters are not an innovation. If they actually have their own special equipment, so be it, but it sure didn't affect how UM did battle, and thus falls into the 'isolated' category.
All of which is more newness at a much greater pace than has ever occurred in the setting/collection before. New units being slowly introduced over the years is radically different than an entirely new army springing up out of the blue, both in universe and in RL.
Razorbacks being introduced five millennia ago is a far cry from the massive Primaris rollout.
Again, all you've just made there are claims that "this is radically different!" and "this is a far cry away!" - if so, show me objectively!
We're now in Sgt Smudge head-in-sand territory. Razorbacks did not appear alongside new marines with new organs and new armor and new weapons and more new vehicles. It was a single innovation that happened to take hold at some point in history. If you have evidence to the contrary I'm all ears.
I'll give you a new primarch. Except its not unprecedented either. morty and magnus also have models and vulkan and angron have both turned up several times in the lore prior to this. Besides, for twenty years players have dreamed of having a primarch introduced.
Mortarian, Magnus, Angron and Fulgrim were all playable in the old Epic game. The Daemon Primarchs being around and active was always a thing going on in the background.
Having a loyalist Primarch "miraculously return" is a whole new thang.
The Terminator Squad is better than the original Librarian you referred to. Not great, but better. And honestly that second Librarian looks completely plausible given the pose. One shoulder up and one shoulder down.
Beyond that you're fighting with miniatures that are intended to be disproportionate and exaggerated to begin with, to read from several feet away being on the table. So there's two layers of stylization going on, the stylization of the armor itself, and the stylization when the design is put through some re-proportioning to meet the GW table-top model aesthetic. And then the individual sculptor's execution on top of that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/25 21:45:26
Insectum7 wrote:The fact that you aren't capable of stating the contrary and having it align with the lore. Primaris, awakening (non daemon) primarch, and their equipment is a big ol' dump of new stuff.
I'm not doubting it's a big ol' dump of new stuff.
But so are Centurions. So are grav guns. So are Land Speeder Storms, Land Raider variants, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, and suchlike.
My point being - why are THESE objectively different? What is the objective difference between them?
Go ahead and list it out then, and list the approximate time in lore for which said innovations occurred as well as the magnitude of the effect of said innovations on the Space Marine faction.
I believe I did list many, and for all of them, I can tell you that they took considerably less time than the 10,000 years it took Cawl, acting with the explicit blessing of the Emperor and Guilliman. So, you know, it makes MORE sense that Cawl was able to achieve what he did, within the context of the setting - far more so than a random-ass Techmarine retrofitting a full Land Raider and that being accepted by the techno-phobic Imperium.
So, how about that Imperial fear of innovation, eh?
Different variations of power armor and bolters will exist, it's a big galaxy after all and there are thousands of forge worlds etc. producing stuff. And although minor variations will inevitably exist, almost none of them have made enough of a difference to effect how chapters, squads, etc. are represented in the rules.
Game rules are entirely an abstraction. If GW wanted to, they could have easily had several different profiles of Godwyn, Tigris or Phobos pattern bolter. The rules dictate that Iron Hands are, what, 16% more durable than other Marines, when they weren't prior to 6th. How do you reconcile that?
You'll find that imperial innovation has been glacially slow
Gee, like 10,000 years slow? Also, wow, I bet that Land Raider Redeemer must have taken ages to make and dev- oh. They did it in the space of one battle.
and more often than not completely isolated to the point where it has had little to no effect on the Space Marine faction as a whole.
Redeemer says hi.
Objectively.
Not objectively - might want to reassess that one, dear.
As for the Minotaurs, new chapters get founded (and are killed off) all the time. No big deal there, as it has zero effect on the SM faction as a whole. New equipment such as newly manufactured bolters are not an innovation. If they actually have their own special equipment, so be it, but it sure didn't affect how UM did battle, and thus falls into the 'isolated' category.
But, are the Minotaurs a Chapter 10,000 years in the making? No, I thought not.
Comparative to time put in, the Primaris are entirely congruent, by my rationale. You may disagree, but you can't "disprove" what is a subjective interpretation of the lore.
Razorbacks did not appear alongside new marines with new organs and new armor and new weapons and more new vehicles. It was a single innovation that happened to take hold at some point in history. If you have evidence to the contrary I'm all ears.
Hang on, I think I hear the goalposts moving!
What on earth does what the Razorback came out alongside with change what it is? It's an Affront to the Imperial Technological Stagnation!! I wasn't aware that you could slip things past that Mighty Rule of Imperial Technological Stagnation if they were on their own. Are you saying that the hover tanks would have been fine if GW had released them a few years apart?
Or is this not about when GW released it, and when it appeared in the lore? Because, even by that metric, it took 10,000 years to develop them. 10,000 years is an awful long time, I'm sure it's not outside the realms of possibility.
Either way you slice it, your argument doesn't exactly stand objectively. You're totally justified to dislike stuff, you know. I just don't get your crusade of "I don't like this and no-one else should have it!"
I honestly don't get why you care so much that someone disagrees with you, and says that you might not be arguing from a place of objective truths. This is a fictional universe, open to interpretation, to personal insight and choice - nearly anything we can find in it someone else can disagree with. Very few things can be said to be objective - why the bloody-mindedness? Is it too much for you that someone could (*shock, horror*) enjoy something you don't?
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that all of these "innovations" aren't that innovative.
"Jam more more hormones in marines to make them bigger!"
"take 4 land speeders and slap a land raider on top!"
"add thicker armor to marines! We'll call it gravis armor!"
The only really new or original weapons are arguably the boltstorm gauntlets, the gattling cannons, the laser destroyer I think, and I guess the various grenade launchers technically. Everything else is borrowed or a tweaked version.
Insectum7 wrote:The fact that you aren't capable of stating the contrary and having it align with the lore. Primaris, awakening (non daemon) primarch, and their equipment is a big ol' dump of new stuff.
I'm not doubting it's a big ol' dump of new stuff.
But so are Centurions. So are grav guns. So are Land Speeder Storms, Land Raider variants, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, and suchlike.
My point being - why are THESE objectively different? What is the objective difference between them?
Go ahead and list it out then, and list the approximate time in lore for which said innovations occurred as well as the magnitude of the effect of said innovations on the Space Marine faction.
I believe I did list many, and for all of them, I can tell you that they took considerably less time than the 10,000 years it took Cawl, acting with the explicit blessing of the Emperor and Guilliman. So, you know, it makes MORE sense that Cawl was able to achieve what he did, within the context of the setting - far more so than a random-ass Techmarine retrofitting a full Land Raider and that being accepted by the techno-phobic Imperium.
So, how about that Imperial fear of innovation, eh?
Different variations of power armor and bolters will exist, it's a big galaxy after all and there are thousands of forge worlds etc. producing stuff. And although minor variations will inevitably exist, almost none of them have made enough of a difference to effect how chapters, squads, etc. are represented in the rules.
Game rules are entirely an abstraction. If GW wanted to, they could have easily had several different profiles of Godwyn, Tigris or Phobos pattern bolter. The rules dictate that Iron Hands are, what, 16% more durable than other Marines, when they weren't prior to 6th. How do you reconcile that?
You'll find that imperial innovation has been glacially slow
Gee, like 10,000 years slow? Also, wow, I bet that Land Raider Redeemer must have taken ages to make and dev- oh. They did it in the space of one battle.
and more often than not completely isolated to the point where it has had little to no effect on the Space Marine faction as a whole.
Redeemer says hi.
Objectively.
Not objectively - might want to reassess that one, dear.
As for the Minotaurs, new chapters get founded (and are killed off) all the time. No big deal there, as it has zero effect on the SM faction as a whole. New equipment such as newly manufactured bolters are not an innovation. If they actually have their own special equipment, so be it, but it sure didn't affect how UM did battle, and thus falls into the 'isolated' category.
But, are the Minotaurs a Chapter 10,000 years in the making? No, I thought not.
Comparative to time put in, the Primaris are entirely congruent, by my rationale. You may disagree, but you can't "disprove" what is a subjective interpretation of the lore.
Razorbacks did not appear alongside new marines with new organs and new armor and new weapons and more new vehicles. It was a single innovation that happened to take hold at some point in history. If you have evidence to the contrary I'm all ears.
Hang on, I think I hear the goalposts moving!
What on earth does what the Razorback came out alongside with change what it is? It's an Affront to the Imperial Technological Stagnation!! I wasn't aware that you could slip things past that Mighty Rule of Imperial Technological Stagnation if they were on their own. Are you saying that the hover tanks would have been fine if GW had released them a few years apart?
Or is this not about when GW released it, and when it appeared in the lore? Because, even by that metric, it took 10,000 years to develop them. 10,000 years is an awful long time, I'm sure it's not outside the realms of possibility.
Either way you slice it, your argument doesn't exactly stand objectively. You're totally justified to dislike stuff, you know. I just don't get your crusade of "I don't like this and no-one else should have it!"
I honestly don't get why you care so much that someone disagrees with you, and says that you might not be arguing from a place of objective truths. This is a fictional universe, open to interpretation, to personal insight and choice - nearly anything we can find in it someone else can disagree with. Very few things can be said to be objective - why the bloody-mindedness? Is it too much for you that someone could (*shock, horror*) enjoy something you don't?
None of which counters the fact that on the scale of millenia upon which those earlier advancements progressed on, the Primaris popped onto the scene all at once, with more advancements than all of those previous iterations combined.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Insectum is unreasonable when discussing Primaris so I wouldn't even bother. Probably hasn't even put together ONE kit for them.
Why would I collect a kit from an army I don't like?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/26 01:03:17
Deathwatch melta-fist from 7th, only with a different ranged weapon. Calgar's had bolter-fists since 3rd at least, too, and they're UM wargear for generic characters in 30k.
"Bigger lascannon" is all over the place in 30k. Neutron lasers, laser destroyers, the Deredeo's heavy lascannons.
...and I guess the various grenade launchers technically...
Barely. "Grenade launcher" weapons float around the peripheral of the SM arsenal at least as far back as 5th (Scout bike GLs, auxiliary GLs), the vehicle multi-launchers are foreshadowed by CSM Havoc Launchers going back to 3rd.
...Everything else is borrowed or a tweaked version...
"Intercessors" were Thousand Sons unique Recon squads in 30k before they were Primaris Marines, but only barely (March 2017 to June 2017)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/26 01:06:59
Insectum7 wrote:The fact that you aren't capable of stating the contrary and having it align with the lore. Primaris, awakening (non daemon) primarch, and their equipment is a big ol' dump of new stuff.
I'm not doubting it's a big ol' dump of new stuff.
But so are Centurions. So are grav guns. So are Land Speeder Storms, Land Raider variants, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, and suchlike.
My point being - why are THESE objectively different? What is the objective difference between them?
Go ahead and list it out then, and list the approximate time in lore for which said innovations occurred as well as the magnitude of the effect of said innovations on the Space Marine faction.
I believe I did list many, and for all of them, I can tell you that they took considerably less time than the 10,000 years it took Cawl, acting with the explicit blessing of the Emperor and Guilliman. So, you know, it makes MORE sense that Cawl was able to achieve what he did, within the context of the setting - far more so than a random-ass Techmarine retrofitting a full Land Raider and that being accepted by the techno-phobic Imperium.
So, how about that Imperial fear of innovation, eh?
Different variations of power armor and bolters will exist, it's a big galaxy after all and there are thousands of forge worlds etc. producing stuff. And although minor variations will inevitably exist, almost none of them have made enough of a difference to effect how chapters, squads, etc. are represented in the rules.
Game rules are entirely an abstraction. If GW wanted to, they could have easily had several different profiles of Godwyn, Tigris or Phobos pattern bolter. The rules dictate that Iron Hands are, what, 16% more durable than other Marines, when they weren't prior to 6th. How do you reconcile that?
You'll find that imperial innovation has been glacially slow
Gee, like 10,000 years slow? Also, wow, I bet that Land Raider Redeemer must have taken ages to make and dev- oh. They did it in the space of one battle.
and more often than not completely isolated to the point where it has had little to no effect on the Space Marine faction as a whole.
Redeemer says hi.
Objectively.
Not objectively - might want to reassess that one, dear.
As for the Minotaurs, new chapters get founded (and are killed off) all the time. No big deal there, as it has zero effect on the SM faction as a whole. New equipment such as newly manufactured bolters are not an innovation. If they actually have their own special equipment, so be it, but it sure didn't affect how UM did battle, and thus falls into the 'isolated' category.
But, are the Minotaurs a Chapter 10,000 years in the making? No, I thought not.
Comparative to time put in, the Primaris are entirely congruent, by my rationale. You may disagree, but you can't "disprove" what is a subjective interpretation of the lore.
Razorbacks did not appear alongside new marines with new organs and new armor and new weapons and more new vehicles. It was a single innovation that happened to take hold at some point in history. If you have evidence to the contrary I'm all ears.
Hang on, I think I hear the goalposts moving!
What on earth does what the Razorback came out alongside with change what it is? It's an Affront to the Imperial Technological Stagnation!! I wasn't aware that you could slip things past that Mighty Rule of Imperial Technological Stagnation if they were on their own. Are you saying that the hover tanks would have been fine if GW had released them a few years apart?
Or is this not about when GW released it, and when it appeared in the lore? Because, even by that metric, it took 10,000 years to develop them. 10,000 years is an awful long time, I'm sure it's not outside the realms of possibility.
Either way you slice it, your argument doesn't exactly stand objectively. You're totally justified to dislike stuff, you know. I just don't get your crusade of "I don't like this and no-one else should have it!"
I honestly don't get why you care so much that someone disagrees with you, and says that you might not be arguing from a place of objective truths. This is a fictional universe, open to interpretation, to personal insight and choice - nearly anything we can find in it someone else can disagree with. Very few things can be said to be objective - why the bloody-mindedness? Is it too much for you that someone could (*shock, horror*) enjoy something you don't?
None of which counters the fact that on the scale of millenia upon which those earlier advancements progressed on, the Primaris popped onto the scene all at once, with more advancements than all of those previous iterations combined.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Insectum is unreasonable when discussing Primaris so I wouldn't even bother. Probably hasn't even put together ONE kit for them.
Why would I collect a kit from an army I don't like?
1. They're from the same army you collect, not a different one. Deal with it.
2. You make outrageous claims about the kits despite never putting one together.
3. You claim "objective" that Manlet Marines are better, despite the proportions automatically making your claim wrong.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Insectum7 wrote:The fact that you aren't capable of stating the contrary and having it align with the lore. Primaris, awakening (non daemon) primarch, and their equipment is a big ol' dump of new stuff.
I'm not doubting it's a big ol' dump of new stuff.
But so are Centurions. So are grav guns. So are Land Speeder Storms, Land Raider variants, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, and suchlike.
My point being - why are THESE objectively different? What is the objective difference between them?
Go ahead and list it out then, and list the approximate time in lore for which said innovations occurred as well as the magnitude of the effect of said innovations on the Space Marine faction.
I believe I did list many, and for all of them, I can tell you that they took considerably less time than the 10,000 years it took Cawl, acting with the explicit blessing of the Emperor and Guilliman. So, you know, it makes MORE sense that Cawl was able to achieve what he did, within the context of the setting - far more so than a random-ass Techmarine retrofitting a full Land Raider and that being accepted by the techno-phobic Imperium.
So, how about that Imperial fear of innovation, eh?
Different variations of power armor and bolters will exist, it's a big galaxy after all and there are thousands of forge worlds etc. producing stuff. And although minor variations will inevitably exist, almost none of them have made enough of a difference to effect how chapters, squads, etc. are represented in the rules.
Game rules are entirely an abstraction. If GW wanted to, they could have easily had several different profiles of Godwyn, Tigris or Phobos pattern bolter. The rules dictate that Iron Hands are, what, 16% more durable than other Marines, when they weren't prior to 6th. How do you reconcile that?
You'll find that imperial innovation has been glacially slow
Gee, like 10,000 years slow? Also, wow, I bet that Land Raider Redeemer must have taken ages to make and dev- oh. They did it in the space of one battle.
and more often than not completely isolated to the point where it has had little to no effect on the Space Marine faction as a whole.
Redeemer says hi.
Objectively.
Not objectively - might want to reassess that one, dear.
As for the Minotaurs, new chapters get founded (and are killed off) all the time. No big deal there, as it has zero effect on the SM faction as a whole. New equipment such as newly manufactured bolters are not an innovation. If they actually have their own special equipment, so be it, but it sure didn't affect how UM did battle, and thus falls into the 'isolated' category.
But, are the Minotaurs a Chapter 10,000 years in the making? No, I thought not.
Comparative to time put in, the Primaris are entirely congruent, by my rationale. You may disagree, but you can't "disprove" what is a subjective interpretation of the lore.
Razorbacks did not appear alongside new marines with new organs and new armor and new weapons and more new vehicles. It was a single innovation that happened to take hold at some point in history. If you have evidence to the contrary I'm all ears.
Hang on, I think I hear the goalposts moving!
What on earth does what the Razorback came out alongside with change what it is? It's an Affront to the Imperial Technological Stagnation!! I wasn't aware that you could slip things past that Mighty Rule of Imperial Technological Stagnation if they were on their own. Are you saying that the hover tanks would have been fine if GW had released them a few years apart?
Or is this not about when GW released it, and when it appeared in the lore? Because, even by that metric, it took 10,000 years to develop them. 10,000 years is an awful long time, I'm sure it's not outside the realms of possibility.
Either way you slice it, your argument doesn't exactly stand objectively. You're totally justified to dislike stuff, you know. I just don't get your crusade of "I don't like this and no-one else should have it!"
I honestly don't get why you care so much that someone disagrees with you, and says that you might not be arguing from a place of objective truths. This is a fictional universe, open to interpretation, to personal insight and choice - nearly anything we can find in it someone else can disagree with. Very few things can be said to be objective - why the bloody-mindedness? Is it too much for you that someone could (*shock, horror*) enjoy something you don't?
None of which counters the fact that on the scale of millenia upon which those earlier advancements progressed on, the Primaris popped onto the scene all at once, with more advancements than all of those previous iterations combined.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Insectum is unreasonable when discussing Primaris so I wouldn't even bother. Probably hasn't even put together ONE kit for them.
Why would I collect a kit from an army I don't like?
1. They're from the same army you collect, not a different one. Deal with it.
2. You make outrageous claims about the kits despite never putting one together.
3. You claim "objective" that Manlet Marines are better, despite the proportions automatically making your claim wrong.
1. Don't care.
2. Quote my "outrageous claims".
3. Quote me claiming one is objectively better than the other.
The Terminator Squad is better than the original Librarian you referred to. Not great, but better. And honestly that second Librarian looks completely plausible given the pose. One shoulder up and one shoulder down.
Beyond that you're fighting with miniatures that are intended to be disproportionate and exaggerated to begin with, to read from several feet away being on the table. So there's two layers of stylization going on, the stylization of the armor itself, and the stylization when the design is put through some re-proportioning to meet the GW table-top model aesthetic. And then the individual sculptor's execution on top of that.
I'm aware of that. But I still think the execution often fails. Especially on more dynamic poses.
Wich is why (despite their art work) I've always just assumed that terminator armor arms don't actually contain the SMs arms.
I also rarely ever use 3e era + termies because of this execution fail. Just my ages old 2e Wolf Guard.
Insectum7 wrote:None of which counters the fact that on the scale of millenia upon which those earlier advancements progressed on, the Primaris popped onto the scene all at once, with more advancements than all of those previous iterations combined.
They popped onto the scene all at once... after being under construction for 10,000 years! Of course they'll be more advanced and more extensive than a weapon swap on a Land Raider that somehow every Chapter has and was greenlit after just one campaign. If that's our benchmark for innovation, I'd be shocked that Cawl was ONLY able to make what he did.
You seem unable to be able to divorce the idea of Primaris popping onto the scene in the real world (which *did* happen all at once, with very little forewarning or preparation) and the idea of Primaris coming to be in the fantasy realm of 40k (where they *did* come onto the scene all at once, but had been a project in the works for several millennia, the details of which we are only just being informed about).
There's a difference there, and it honestly seems like you're unable to distinguish the two.
Now, in the real world, maybe you feel that Primaris came in too quickly. Maybe you feel that they weren't needed in the first place. Maybe you wanted easing in, and the shock has permanently put you off them. Maybe it's any other reason you can think of. And you know what? All those reasons, as your own subjective opinions, are valid! You can dislike them for whatever reason you like, I'm not here to dictate what you can and can't enjoy.
I ask only that you show the same respect for me, instead of claiming some kind of "objective" truth on the matter.
Clearly, you think that Primaris are too far gone in the setting. But I disagree. And neither of us exactly have ownership of the setting, or can truly say what is and isn't objective. So perhaps just accept that to some people, what they like is well supported by lore, and to others, they don't feel the lore covers it.
Insectum7 wrote:None of which counters the fact that on the scale of millenia upon which those earlier advancements progressed on, the Primaris popped onto the scene all at once, with more advancements than all of those previous iterations combined.
They popped onto the scene all at once... after being under construction for 10,000 years! Of course they'll be more advanced and more extensive than a weapon swap on a Land Raider that somehow every Chapter has and was greenlit after just one campaign. If that's our benchmark for innovation, I'd be shocked that Cawl was ONLY able to make what he did.
The problem is that still doesn't seem justified within the lore that's been set out for the last 20+ years. I think that's the issue most people have with Primaris. Cawl himself just kind of appears out of nowhere and suddenly he's this central figure that's been working behind the scenes for 10,000 years. That's just bad writing, seemingly used entirely to justify GW's need to revamp the SM miniature line (a similar problem exists with the sudden reveal of Centurions, not helped by the woeful models). Given that it took about 10,000 years to go from Mk VII power armour to Mk VIII the amount of innovation Cawl manages (in secret no less!) is immersion breaking within the rules GW have already established.
Most of the things you mention as previous innovations are adaptations of existing technology: Land Raider and Land Speeder variants are essentially weapon swaps for existing guns, or adding a tiny area to stand so you can transport some guys and these changes are often portrayed in the lore as close to heresy. The Primaris line comes in with three new types of armour and a bespoke range of ranged weapons. The most egregious problem from a lore point of view are the extra organs in the Primaris genetic code itself, something which is seen as sacred because it's known that SM were something the Emperor was directly involved in creating.
What's really disappointing to me about the Primaris roll-out and return of Guilliman is that GW had a great opportunity to make it really meaningful in a background sense. We could have had splits within the Imperium itself with dogmatic disagreements over these new innovations leading to meaningful conflict and shifting of allegiances within the background. Instead we get a few throwaway lines about some SM chapters not liking the new Primaris and a couple of High Lords annoyed that their positions are threatened by Guilliman but that's it.
eh every new thing appers out of no where, at least primaris aren't trying to tell us "THEY'RE BEEN THERE ALL ALONG! IGNORE THE FACT THAT THEY WHEREN'T MENTIONED IN X WHERE THEY WOULDA BEEN PERFECT!"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: eh every new thing appers out of no where, at least primaris aren't trying to tell us "THEY'RE BEEN THERE ALL ALONG! IGNORE THE FACT THAT THEY WHEREN'T MENTIONED IN X WHERE THEY WOULDA BEEN PERFECT!"
cue alpha legion magic wand...
otoh Primaris and especially cawl, DO appear out of nowhere, even if the lore get's revised it is still rather nonsensical that there is this one techpriest running arround since what 11'000 years making marines +1 and deepfreezing them for just the right ammount of time..
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Slipspace wrote:The problem is that still doesn't seem justified within the lore that's been set out for the last 20+ years.
Sure, I can't disagree that Primaris weren't foreshadowed for decades.
But the lore adds new stuff constantly - either via retcons, like it's doing with the Primaris (quite literally filling in blanks and writing themselves in) or via "this was here the whole time!" (a la grav-guns, Centurions, Stormravens/Talons/Hawks).
Primaris are a new idea from GW themselves, certainly not intended to be made 20+ years ago. But the lore changes, and frankly, they're totally *plausible* to have been made when you read the lore that's been made to justify them. And if you're excluding that - well, could that not work with anything? Ultramarines being a first founder are implausible when you only read that they were a 3rd founding Chapter. It becomes a case of what you *choose* to accept - and what other people choose to accept or not has nothing to do with me. I'll just accept what I read, and expect people to respect that.
Given that it took about 10,000 years to go from Mk VII power armour to Mk VIII the amount of innovation Cawl manages (in secret no less!) is immersion breaking within the rules GW have already established.
Eh, not really? I seem to remember some Errant pattern designs in the lore from much earlier than M41. Again, think about it - Cawl has the blessing of two of the most powerful figures in the Imperium to do his work, the intellect to do it, and 10,000 years to see it done. If Cawl had been written in 20 years ago, this wouldn't be a shock. The thing that gets people hung up is that he wasn't written 20 years ago - their gripe isn't with the lore, it's with their own real world interpretations of what is and isn't considered canon. And that, unfortunately, is entirely subjective.
Most of the things you mention as previous innovations are adaptations of existing technology: Land Raider and Land Speeder variants are essentially weapon swaps for existing guns, or adding a tiny area to stand so you can transport some guys and these changes are often portrayed in the lore as close to heresy.
I don't recall any "heresy" warnings during the creation of the Crusader, Redeemer, and Ares.
The Primaris line comes in with three new types of armour and a bespoke range of ranged weapons. The most egregious problem from a lore point of view are the extra organs in the Primaris genetic code itself, something which is seen as sacred because it's known that SM were something the Emperor was directly involved in creating.
And again, this is where your own prior beliefs come in on what you deem canon, because current lore states that Cawl (or rather, one of Cawl's subminds) was more influential in the Astartes program than the Emperor was.
So, you can throw that out as "that's not what I heard 20 years ago" or you can see it as "well, I guess whatever I heard beforehand was apocryphal". Aka - subjective.
What's really disappointing to me about the Primaris roll-out and return of Guilliman is that GW had a great opportunity to make it really meaningful in a background sense. We could have had splits within the Imperium itself with dogmatic disagreements over these new innovations leading to meaningful conflict and shifting of allegiances within the background. Instead we get a few throwaway lines about some SM chapters not liking the new Primaris and a couple of High Lords annoyed that their positions are threatened by Guilliman but that's it.
If you want to take your own personal narrative that way, there's nothing stopping you. I'm personally disappointed that women Astartes weren't rolled out as part of the Primaris line, so I headcanoned that they were.
Again - there's no "lore police". We all have somewhat subjective takes on what "should" be, or what a certain thing in the lore means. Saying "but that's not fitting with the theme of the setting!!" is only true insofar as that one person's interpretation of that theme.
Insectum7 wrote:None of which counters the fact that on the scale of millenia upon which those earlier advancements progressed on, the Primaris popped onto the scene all at once, with more advancements than all of those previous iterations combined.
They popped onto the scene all at once... after being under construction for 10,000 years! Of course they'll be more advanced and more extensive than a weapon swap on a Land Raider that somehow every Chapter has and was greenlit after just one campaign. If that's our benchmark for innovation, I'd be shocked that Cawl was ONLY able to make what he did.
The problem is that still doesn't seem justified within the lore that's been set out for the last 20+ years. I think that's the issue most people have with Primaris. Cawl himself just kind of appears out of nowhere and suddenly he's this central figure that's been working behind the scenes for 10,000 years. That's just bad writing, seemingly used entirely to justify GW's need to revamp the SM miniature line (a similar problem exists with the sudden reveal of Centurions, not helped by the woeful models). Given that it took about 10,000 years to go from Mk VII power armour to Mk VIII the amount of innovation Cawl manages (in secret no less!) is immersion breaking within the rules GW have already established.
Most of the things you mention as previous innovations are adaptations of existing technology: Land Raider and Land Speeder variants are essentially weapon swaps for existing guns, or adding a tiny area to stand so you can transport some guys and these changes are often portrayed in the lore as close to heresy. The Primaris line comes in with three new types of armour and a bespoke range of ranged weapons. The most egregious problem from a lore point of view are the extra organs in the Primaris genetic code itself, something which is seen as sacred because it's known that SM were something the Emperor was directly involved in creating.
What's really disappointing to me about the Primaris roll-out and return of Guilliman is that GW had a great opportunity to make it really meaningful in a background sense. We could have had splits within the Imperium itself with dogmatic disagreements over these new innovations leading to meaningful conflict and shifting of allegiances within the background. Instead we get a few throwaway lines about some SM chapters not liking the new Primaris and a couple of High Lords annoyed that their positions are threatened by Guilliman but that's it.
Yes because the Imperium is 100% always conflict all the time.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
