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Voss wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
Yes, all three of them.

I believe that it was intended to be an abortive first step to clean up the 'distracting messiness' of seperate Aeldari codexes with product lines that needed significant renewal. The solution was to roll them into a single faction, andr release bigger and better Ynnari models, with rules to render the older stuff irrelevant.

And now they've stalled (continued to stall) on doing anything of substance with any eldar army, the worst of all possible solutions.

If they'd kept the model lines intact, I could have lived with a Ynnari blanket over everything. But instead that turned into a big load of nothing, and now were staring down a DE codex with (apparently) nothing attached to it but a special character.

Quite true, but it's not the faction that I choose to play. I'd rather the status quo, than my faction being replaced by 'new and improved Aeldari'.

Eldar need the kind of big model range redo Necrons just got.
Hell they needed it more than Necrons did by far.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
The whole 'old Marines are too bloated so need to be squatted so GW can start clean with Primaris' argument would be a lot more compelling if Primaris weren't already on a fast-track to bloat from the constant stream of releases. In some ways they're already worse.

Reivers, Incusors, and Infiltrators all uncomfortably occupy the niche once reserved to just Scouts. The number of bolt weapons alone available to Primaris eclipses the total number of weapons firstborn Marines used to have. Three different kinds of basic bolter, three different kinds of plasma cannon, three different Storm Speeders.

Even GW can't keep it straight, judging by the references to weapons that don't exist on the Heavy Intercessor datasheet.

Yeah, this. Primaris ARE the bloat. Is this a good time to bring up the ridiculous list of bolt weapons they bring?

Agreed. Look at Firstborn and, prior to the beginning of the bloat in 7th with things like the Hunter and Stalker, you see a logic in the army structure and a fairly restricted arsenal. Firstborn have 3 basic squads, a close combat and a shooting veteran squad, scouts and Terminators. They maybe started goinga bit overboard with Honour Guard Command Squads but it was nowhere near as bad as Primaris.

Take Scouts as an example. The Firstborn scout squad has effectively been replaced by 3 separate units: Incursors, Infiltrators and Eliminators. And those three units have three different bolt weapons between them, plus a special sniper rifle and a unique anti-tank weapon. The new Storm Speeders are similar, boasting two different missile launchers, and unique weapons on each of them. Compare that to something like a Predator or Land Speeder. They have maybe one unique weapon but are otherwise equipped with standard weapons from the SM armoury.

If you're looking to reduce bloat from the SM Codex Primaris would be the ideal place to start.

Exalted for analysis Slipspace.

I don't think hatred marines receive is disproportional. Perhaps for individual chapters, sure.

Marines get more. Its not debatable. At least not at the moment. They get less as you subdivide, but compared to, say, eldar? Yeah i'm picking eldar because obviously its a cherry pick, but look at their model range. Look at their rules. Marine lovin is step 1, next step is: every other army lovin. I would like to see that. Bar necrons because they're released already and they're not sm so they're npcs. With big angry-anti-marine guns. That's an idea, instead of angry marines how about angry necrons? They have personalities now, right?

Voss wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
Yes, all three of them.

I believe that it was intended to be an abortive first step to clean up the 'distracting messiness' of seperate Aeldari codexes with product lines that needed significant renewal. The solution was to roll them into a single faction, andr release bigger and better Ynnari models, with rules to render the older stuff irrelevant.

And now they've stalled (continued to stall) on doing anything of substance with any eldar army, the worst of all possible solutions.

If they'd kept the model lines intact, I could have lived with a Ynnari blanket over everything. But instead that turned into a big load of nothing, and now were staring down a DE codex with (apparently) nothing attached to it but a special character.

Hey, hey, hey, GW has far more important things to work on than Eldar updates.

Those SoB baby-carriers don't design themselves, you know.

Gw doesn't care about some armies. They only started caring about sisters due to new wave political opinions. Don't think for a second if those opinions stopped that gw would keep caring about sisters. They'd have to wait 15 years for new releases again if that happened or just get squatted.

Dark eldar don't have it as bad as sisters used to but we are one of the lesser cared for armies by gw. We don't get new units or weapons for those units though. I want anything at all to be excited about new dark eldar units and kits while marines just get everything they could ever want and more.

Orks got some units but some of that was limited. Honestly at this point if you don't play imperium and esp. If it's one of the older factions then gw won't give your armies new units. Eldar and tau have gotten more new unit love than dark eldar and some other factions. I'm this close to getting gsc or admech just because they at least get new units so theres something to be excited for at least. The problem being gsc suck right now far as ive heard. I dunno where admech are. Hopefully theyre good.

Salt donkey wrote:
As the title says I am certain that most people hate marines right now simply because they are GW’s main cash cow. I’d argue their rules were too good pre-9th codex, but right now people are complaining mainly because marines get disproportionate amount of release and are Omni-present in play groups. How am I certain of this? Codex deathguard.

Spoiler:

To put it bluntly this codex is insanely OP, yet next to no one is talking about this fact. On this forum right now the main discussion surrounding the codex comes from GW stripping away deathguard options. While an important conversation that 40k consumers need to have, this is the type of board that is normally extremely first to cry “OP” instead. In fact outside of Mortarion, few have even mentioned how powerful deathguard units are. Our terminators have T5, -1 D, and a 4++, and pay little for these insane defenses as a quick example of this fact.,Yet, I have not seen a thread complaining about them.

Remember when eradicators where previewed? It was non-stop complaining thread after thread. Heck even when outrider bikes got previewed people were aghast that space marines could get a 4w, T5, bike with 6 attacks. And their only 45 points to!? How can any army compete against the terror of outrider bikes?!

Yes marines where extremely OP with the 2.0 release, but that codex is gone. So why are people still complaining about marines then? As the title suggests simply because they are the golden goose that gets showered with releases and is played by everyone. This makes marines an ideal target for...

A- Salty veterans who are tired of seeing marines get updated instead of their own army.

B) People who are forced to play marines in most of their games.

C) Casuals/new players who naturally get beaten by their friends marines because marines are a noob crusher army.

D) People who barely/never play, but enjoy complaining about 40k and therefore need a scapegoat to get triggered by.

The problem with all these viewpoints is all are biased against judging marines power level fairly. It gets especially bad once you start mixing them together. But for those of us who a want a balanced and fun 40k, these kind of viewpoints simply muddy the water and therefore hinder useful changes.

So are marines unfairly judged based on GW’s treatment of them, or am I wrong and they are as OP as dakka suggests?

At risk of sounding slightly like I'm after an Echo Chamber here, I'm gonna say people hate more of the attention than the rules at this point.

Take yesterday & today (Saturday 23rd & Sunday 24th) - Out of all of the reveals about 40k this weekend, Space Marines were 7 of them:
- Heavy Intercessors + Heavy Intercessor Captain (by itself, their 6th Troop choice AND their 4th varient of NON-NAMED Just Primaris captain model) [And is half of a hideously unbalanced box to boot]
- Multipart kits for two units up for preorder
- The next Codex Supplement: DA
- Start Collecting Dark Angels
- And the Superspeeder
That is 7/11 40k releases

On top of this we have:
- a unit of updated necron models and a decent character model [the other half of said atrociously balanced box, terrain be damned unless it has fortification rules]
- another Necron Character (the one less well received)
- and the Nundams.

And the above ratio is *low* in comparison to some of the heavier updates

When you take a consistent 60% minimum of all releases being Loyalist Astartes (usually blue just to insult the rest of them as well - but thats a different debate)

Now, I'll admit I like many others have built Space Marine forces, one for HH, and two specific lists for a single project that wont grow anymore. My hatred for the codex more than half my models come from is that it holds 7 fewer Pages of Just Rules in the Core Book than my necron codex has PAGES.

The difference should you wish to validate is 113 units in the core SM book (of which 6 were still unreleased as units to themselves, 2 of which are still unavailable alone after this weekend), versus total pages in print including all lore and full page art pieces of the Necron codex tallying at 120.

Add to THAT infernal figure, that of those 113 pages, at least 80% managed to escape with CORE, whereas again Necrons got stuck with a whopping 5 UNITS. Pardon me using Necrons as the benchmark, but I know the most about them.



I dont think people have had a serious complaint about marines' rules since 9th landed and the three power pillars of codex SM were addressed. I, like a few others, do not feel bad about taking my marines along to friendly games anymore, as I dont win my codex default anymore, which makes a healthier game overall. But holy feth, the favouritism is getting stupidly hard to stomach, no matter how much better balanced anything is.


Rant over

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Gw doesn't care about some armies. They only started caring about sisters due to new wave political opinions. Don't think for a second if those opinions stopped that gw would keep caring about sisters. They'd have to wait 15 years for new releases again if that happened or just get squatted.

lmao

More likely a faction at GW got hyped about SoB after literal decades of a low-key puttering demand and combined it with their new model designing tech after the risk they took with revamping the Dark Eldar paid off. A lot of design at GW is about what designers feel hype about. The importance of internal hype is why we have the term "Squatting" in the first place.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
All you need to prove the anti marine bias form - is to look at the tactics section.

Space marines by far the most popular faction in the game by at least a factor of 2. have 13 pages of 9th eddition codex discussion.

Necrons by comparison are not popular and have 33. Nearly 3x as much discussion.

Eldar 9th ed are at like 55 pages.

Marine players have literally left this forum because of it I am sure.

Maybe it is just the case that no one likes marines but marine players. I just question why these people keep playing...I guess because the game has literally been a marine turkey shoot until Gman came along. Now its getting rough though cause marines have teeth...

LOL no telling. Id just suggest not biting the hand the feeds you - without marines this game would be dead.

Couldn't it be that marines are so easy to play and overpowered that a thread in which players discuss about tactics is actually pointless?

That is possible except...they also have more options than all other armies and can be played in many different ways so...It's impossible that marines players just don't find their way here. I think it's clear there aren't a lot of marine players on this fourm. I'm convinced the reason for that is anti marine bias.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The marine book is mostly a known quantity. I'd bet if you went back far enough you'd see lengthy marine discussions. Necrons have a lot of changes to digest.

Also possible - just a theory.

And also the existence of explicitly marine-centered forums like Bolter and Chainsword while Dakka is Ork themed.

 IHateNids wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:
As the title says I am certain that most people hate marines right now simply because they are GW’s main cash cow. I’d argue their rules were too good pre-9th codex, but right now people are complaining mainly because marines get disproportionate amount of release and are Omni-present in play groups. How am I certain of this? Codex deathguard.

Spoiler:

To put it bluntly this codex is insanely OP, yet next to no one is talking about this fact. On this forum right now the main discussion surrounding the codex comes from GW stripping away deathguard options. While an important conversation that 40k consumers need to have, this is the type of board that is normally extremely first to cry “OP” instead. In fact outside of Mortarion, few have even mentioned how powerful deathguard units are. Our terminators have T5, -1 D, and a 4++, and pay little for these insane defenses as a quick example of this fact.,Yet, I have not seen a thread complaining about them.

Remember when eradicators where previewed? It was non-stop complaining thread after thread. Heck even when outrider bikes got previewed people were aghast that space marines could get a 4w, T5, bike with 6 attacks. And their only 45 points to!? How can any army compete against the terror of outrider bikes?!

Yes marines where extremely OP with the 2.0 release, but that codex is gone. So why are people still complaining about marines then? As the title suggests simply because they are the golden goose that gets showered with releases and is played by everyone. This makes marines an ideal target for...

A- Salty veterans who are tired of seeing marines get updated instead of their own army.

B) People who are forced to play marines in most of their games.

C) Casuals/new players who naturally get beaten by their friends marines because marines are a noob crusher army.

D) People who barely/never play, but enjoy complaining about 40k and therefore need a scapegoat to get triggered by.

The problem with all these viewpoints is all are biased against judging marines power level fairly. It gets especially bad once you start mixing them together. But for those of us who a want a balanced and fun 40k, these kind of viewpoints simply muddy the water and therefore hinder useful changes.

So are marines unfairly judged based on GW’s treatment of them, or am I wrong and they are as OP as dakka suggests?

At risk of sounding slightly like I'm after an Echo Chamber here, I'm gonna say people hate more of the attention than the rules at this point.

Take yesterday & today (Saturday 23rd & Sunday 24th) - Out of all of the reveals about 40k this weekend, Space Marines were 7 of them:
- Heavy Intercessors + Heavy Intercessor Captain (by itself, their 6th Troop choice AND their 4th varient of NON-NAMED Just Primaris captain model) [And is half of a hideously unbalanced box to boot]
- Multipart kits for two units up for preorder
- The next Codex Supplement: DA
- Start Collecting Dark Angels
- And the Superspeeder
That is 7/11 40k releases

On top of this we have:
- a unit of updated necron models and a decent character model [the other half of said atrociously balanced box, terrain be damned unless it has fortification rules]
- another Necron Character (the one less well received)
- and the Nundams.

And the above ratio is *low* in comparison to some of the heavier updates

When you take a consistent 60% minimum of all releases being Loyalist Astartes (usually blue just to insult the rest of them as well - but thats a different debate)

Now, I'll admit I like many others have built Space Marine forces, one for HH, and two specific lists for a single project that wont grow anymore. My hatred for the codex more than half my models come from is that it holds 7 fewer Pages of Just Rules in the Core Book than my necron codex has PAGES.

The difference should you wish to validate is 113 units in the core SM book (of which 6 were still unreleased as units to themselves, 2 of which are still unavailable alone after this weekend), versus total pages in print including all lore and full page art pieces of the Necron codex tallying at 120.

Add to THAT infernal figure, that of those 113 pages, at least 80% managed to escape with CORE, whereas again Necrons got stuck with a whopping 5 UNITS. Pardon me using Necrons as the benchmark, but I know the most about them.



I dont think people have had a serious complaint about marines' rules since 9th landed and the three power pillars of codex SM were addressed. I, like a few others, do not feel bad about taking my marines along to friendly games anymore, as I dont win my codex default anymore, which makes a healthier game overall. But holy feth, the favouritism is getting stupidly hard to stomach, no matter how much better balanced anything is.


Rant over

So... you're complaining that minis we've known about since October of 2021 are finally getting a release date?

As a Marine player yeah I hate these long drawn out releases too dude. I for one would have liked GW to just put out our fething models with our fething codex.

You know, prior to quarantine I would pretty frequently go see acrobatics shows at the circus training center like a block from my old place, and it's a relief to know I can still log on to Dakka when I'm feeling blue and see people gymnastically backflipping their way over, around and under the point of peoples' posts DESPERATELY contorting their meanings to attempt to respond with the smug internet guy mantra of "So You Agree With Me Then Brah?"

the_scotsman wrote:
You know, prior to quarantine I would pretty frequently go see acrobatics shows at the circus training center like a block from my old place, and it's a relief to know I can still log on to Dakka when I'm feeling blue and see people gymnastically backflipping their way over, around and under the point of peoples' posts DESPERATELY contorting their meanings to attempt to respond with the smug internet guy mantra of "So You Agree With Me Then Brah?"

not gonna lie, this made me laugh out loud

still, i get brians issues, personally, i feel the whole primaris update would've been better off as a one and done kinda deal in 2-3 waves and not waves beeing prolonged over whole segments of the editions...partially that is imo indeed the reason as to why the whole primaris stuff looks more like spam nowadays rather then an exciting update to a faction...

BrianDavion wrote:
So... you're complaining that minis we've known about since October of 2021 are finally getting a release date?

As a Marine player yeah I hate these long drawn out releases too dude. I for one would have liked GW to just put out our fething models with our fething codex.

Not Online!!! wrote:
still, i get brians issues, personally, i feel the whole primaris update would've been better off as a one and done kinda deal in 2-3 waves and not waves beeing prolonged over whole segments of the editions...partially that is imo indeed the reason as to why the whole primaris stuff looks more like spam nowadays rather then an exciting update to a faction...

Honestly, you're both right.

Brian, I would have absolutely preferred the entire release at once. It would have made so much more sense.

NotOnline, I agree entirely that the the prolonged rollout is making it unbearable.

However, you take both of those together, you see that the marines are spread out over multiple different releases to hide the fact they get legitimately three times the units of anyone else at all.

No matter which side of the fence you fall on, you gotta admit it's favouritism at this point.

Thats my only point, thats my 2pence

no i get you, heck check my sig, the favouritism is an issue...have been way to long on the reciving end of getting 0 bones thrown my factions way.

if i'd have gotten for that faction just 1/10th in updates sm got it might very well be very alive and well, instead of not even existing anymore.

GW's release schedule is also there to create artificial unhappyness. The fact that they insist that rules updates for factions don't happen at the same time as corerules changes and have a timetable screams issues gallore, ask any ork player during early and mid 8th for the wait to their dex, or GSC for that matter whith how screwy their dex is right now due to CP issues and limitations applied to them...

i also think it starts to become unhealthy for the game, as it turns more and more into 30k but worse as balance is not for everyone and the rules are meh compared to it.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Gw doesn't care about some armies. They only started caring about sisters due to new wave political opinions. Don't think for a second if those opinions stopped that gw would keep caring about sisters. They'd have to wait 15 years for new releases again if that happened or just get squatted.
.

I have a feeling inside that more important then politics where numbers they saw. First of how many people wanted them, then how many and how fast the big boxs went, then how fast the regular boxs got sold.

No matter which side of the fence you fall on, you gotta admit it's favouritism at this point.

It is not favouritism when you are the one bringing in money. Being offended that marines get new stuff over other armies, is like female sportsman being angry that they do not rake in the same money as the males do. In the end GW would have never made primaris in one or even two goes. There are multiple marine codex, and each needs at least one new model coming with the codex. And from what they have seen with AoS, I don't think anyone at GW wanted to see marine players get angry and possibly not buy new models. Sooner or later all marines model are going to have some sort of primaris version, maybe some unit will be split in to two or even three, like scouts wear. And GW does like to take one kit, and turn each weapon load out in to a separate unit. They even do it with weapons, each basic primaris unit will till the end of time have an assault, rapid fire and heavy gun to pick from.

Karol, that assumes that other factions wouldn't bring in the money if they would get more ressources, a claim that is highly debatable as you yourself can see with the sisters update.

Karol wrote:
Being offended that marines get new stuff over other armies, is like female sportsman being angry that they do not rake in the same money as the males do.

I mean, considering that females and males don't compete against each other. The best Males and the best Females should both make the same amount of money, with a proportional trickle downs as you go down the rankings. And your argument assumes that other factions wouldnt sell if they had similar support as marines.

It doesn't matter how much any other army brings in. SoB units are only bought by SoB players, Orks are only played by orks etc.

Most of the marine units GW makes can be used by multiple armies of marines. The ability to outsell other faction is always there.

Marines are the past, potatoes, wheat, corn, pick what ever is the basic ingridient of food in your country. there is no outselling that. Doesn't mean, that other armies can't be succesful or not from GW point of view.

ignore me

no you got a point tycho, covid didn't help, but the primaris range long before was beeing overly updated for no reason at all.
I however also get the frustration for marine players beeing stuck in the know about units that as of yet have to show up , which is frustrating, just not as frsutrating as knowing nothing about if your faction will ever reenter the game as a faction or getting actual releases for it to replace american drinking age models.

Most of the Marine units GW makes can be used by multiple armies of Marines because GW makes rules for multiple armies of Marines.

Can you imagine if Ulthwe got their own supplement? They have units that are different enough - the Black Guardians of Ulthwe can be as different as they want from regular guardians. Sam Hainn could get the Hounds of Mo'Kai, anti-psyker bikers; just slap them in like the Hounds of Mokai the spacewolves got.

You could release a supplement for the Tallarn, giving them some new light armor units like the STEG from 40k lore, or a supplement for the Mordians and Praetorians in a single book that includes some new datasheets like units with their lasguns dialed up in power but down in Rate of Fire, to represent "laslocks".

Oh, wait, no, they had to remove the Tallarn, Mordian, and Praetorian ranges and reduce Black Guardians to a stratagem. Y'know, to make more time to design space marine rules and units.

Karol wrote:
It doesn't matter how much any other army brings in. SoB units are only bought by SoB players, Orks are only played by orks etc.

Most of the marine units GW makes can be used by multiple armies of marines. The ability to outsell other faction is always there.

Marines are the past, potatoes, wheat, corn, pick what ever is the basic ingridient of food in your country. there is no outselling that. Doesn't mean, that other armies can't be succesful or not from GW point of view.

i wonder why there is more marine players when they are featured in every single boxset and are always shown as kicking the ass of the other factions in promotional stuff.

If GW treated each faction the same way, more people would play non-marines armies.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Most of the Marine units GW makes can be used by multiple armies of Marines because GW makes rules for multiple armies of Marines.

Can you imagine if Ulthwe got their own supplement? They have units that are different enough - the Black Guardians of Ulthwe can be as different as they want from regular guardians. Sam Hainn could get the Hounds of Mo'Kai, anti-psyker bikers; just slap them in like the Hounds of Mokai the spacewolves got.

You could release a supplement for the Tallarn, giving them some new light armor units like the STEG from 40k lore, or a supplement for the Mordians and Praetorians in a single book that includes some new datasheets like units with their lasguns dialed up in power but down in Rate of Fire, to represent "laslocks".

Oh, wait, no, they had to remove the Tallarn, Mordian, and Praetorian ranges and reduce Black Guardians to a stratagem. Y'know, to make more time to design space marine rules and units.

back when the hounds did show up, i argued that the rules for it would've been better off split appart and added to a whole slew of other units instead of a slight variant for added £$CHF ontop of a reiver squad.

It fit Khorne berzerkers better, as would it have sisters and a whole slew of other units. and yet it HAD to be a reiver unit, one of the SM units that didn't even sell.

no you got a point tycho, covid didn't help, but the primaris range long before was beeing overly updated for no reason at all.
I however also get the frustration for marine players beeing stuck in the know about units that as of yet have to show up , which is frustrating, just not as frsutrating as knowing nothing about if your faction will ever reenter the game as a faction or getting actual releases for it to replace american drinking age models.

I couldn't get the quote function to work right (for the post you're quoting), needed to edit the post and accidentally pasted in something from a different thread upon editing. So I deleted that, but the point I was TRYING to make is that Brian never saw a marine problem he couldn't justify, and that, while I'm willing to give SOME blame to covid for more recent issues, the "covid" problem ignores the fact that the current release issues began well ahead of quarantine/lockdowns, etc.

So saying "You're upset that a model we've known about since October 2021 is getting a release date" is more than a little disingenuous.

It's like I said in a different thread - I'm a marine player, AND I actually like a lot of the Primaris stuff. That said - all those slightly different unit entries, the three different gladiator variants, really any of the data sheet clutter that's been introduced to that codex - that would all look better as updated plastic Aspect Warriors, new IG troops, Asdrubael Vect, etc etc. imo. We've had more than enough toys doled out since 2017. Let's get on with the other armies now.

Sisters of battle full model range relaunch, including upcoming releases that have been previewed, not including the couple promotional models:

17 kits.

Primaris marines new kits, all released alongside all existing marine units rather than as replacements, not including any kits for marine subfactions that have been historically given their own codex books (Again no promos so allllllllllll the promo lieutenants arent in this number):

44 kits.

GK players apologia I find the funniest because they take so personally every slight to their beloved GK except when it's made increasingly obvious that the entire reason they're being kept artificially terrible right now is because they're the one faction GW has no interest in moving over to primaris, so they're just desperately trying as hard as they can to passive-aggress every GK player on the planet into picking up Primaris Marines instead.

GW: "Look, here's a shiny new siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilver primaris marines chapter in a white dwarf, incidentally we've decided not to update GK and GK alone among all the loyalist marines to W2 cant imagine why, also another dozen new primaris kits coming up"

GK players: "Yes harder daddy please more I will be your stalwart guardian and defender"

The problem with space marine favoritism by gw is it can get to a point where people are only playing marines or what's really powerful and that's not fun. If everybody is playing marines that just sounds boring. Even if you're a marine player what's the point without some xenos to smash every so often.

The problem with space marine favoritism by gw is it can get to a point where people are only playing marines or what's really powerful and that's not fun. If everybody is playing marines that just sounds boring. Even if you're a marine player what's the point without some xenos to smash every so often.

This is the biggest thing IMO. I mean, I don't think it's going to get so bad that there are literally no non-marine players left, but this much of a lopsided, lengthy, and darn near constant release isn't good for the long term health of the game. GW has always looked for short-term profits over long-term gains, and, barring 7th and the AoS launch, they've typically been successful with this, but there is a limit.

When you're being seen to focus too heavily for too long on one faction, that's not great. When you're being seen to focus too heavily for too long on one faction, at the expense of other factions, that's really bad.

Yeah. I mean seriously, in terms of rules support my 30k non-marine armies feel better supported relative to marines than my 40k non-marine armies. And 30k is memed as the "marines only" game.

Yeah. I mean seriously, in terms of rules support my 30k non-marine armies feel better supported relative to marines than my 40k non-marine armies. And 30k is memed as the "marines only" game.

This is especially frightening when you consider the relative lack of support 30k as a whole has received lately, and illustrates the point very well I think.