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2021/01/28 16:03:05
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Unit1126PLL wrote: How about both durable and powerful like it used to be, and then add a point cost to match?
But what would that look like? As intimidating as the AV14 front arc could be, there were plenty of ways to knock the tank out with a single shot and the lower AV on the side and rear made them much more susceptible to close assault.
Iron within, Iron without
2021/01/25 19:43:02
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Unit1126PLL wrote: How about both durable and powerful like it used to be, and then add a point cost to match?
And have the durability and power come from the statline, rather than rules.
The old way was that the Russ was stat-line powerful; AV14 with a battlecannon was pretty intimidating. Other tanks got durability from special rules, e.g. Eldar tanks (AV12 with smaller guns). Eldar tanks had Lance and Fast Skimmer/Holofields to balance things out, but it felt like the correct dichotomy (e.g. IG achieve parity through brute force and capability, while Eldar resort to shenanigans).
So what would your Leman Russ stat line look like? How about the weapon profile (for simplicity's sake, let's assume just the Battle Cannon for now)? I think that figuring out what the Russ should look in pure stats will allow you to point it, and then using that profile, you can figure out what additional rules or stats the Tank Commander should have, along with the points increase.
I'm not sure you can adequately get a Leman Russ statline to where it should be in the current framework. Making it T9 could work, but heavily nerfs antitank weapons without at all touching some of the bigger threats (heavy bolter spam with RRs to wound, for example). Making it T10 would, but I am of the opinion that Lascannons shouldn't need 5s to wound a Russ. You could make the Leman Russ T16 and it would still be just as vulnerable to weapons with RR wounds or +1 to-wound access.
Conversely, you can't really thicken the armor. The only room left to expand is from a 3+ to a 2+, which is do-able but not really a very big durability improvement.
Lastly, the final lever is Wounds, which is probably the best place to make the adjustment, but you'd have to recalibrate it for many things in the game. If you give a Russ 16 wounds, how many should a Land Raider have? How many should a Baneblade have?
The current system has no "immune to small weapons, terrifically vulnerable to specific big weapons" The way the old Russ was.
Additionally, the new system doesn't allow for arcs, meaning any improvement in the Russ's durability is a flat increase no matter the situation, while the old Russ was terrifically strong from the front but there were things to which it was specifically weak (maneuver, and especially anything that hits rear armor).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/25 19:44:13
2021/01/25 19:44:14
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Unit1126PLL wrote: You know, GW used to have an armored company (eventually armored battlegroup) Army List that handled this pretty well at the time.
And to be frank, we could handle it the same way, but it would require changing the game slightly bigly.
I played back then, and I would rather not go back to pre-8th lists and rules. That is, of course, a separate argument from this thread. In any case you can have an all-Leman Russ army in 9th. You can even give those Leman Russ Obsec in a Spearhead Detachment.
I was referring mostly to the way army building worked. You were, at most, allowed 2 tank commanders per Tank Company, given the army building rules - and that's easily sufficient for a Company CO tank and a Company 2iC tank without allowing Tank Commanders to simply take the place of regular Russes. You also had Tank Aces, which were separate and distinct Elites choices, and then tank squadrons as troops choices (1-2 tanks per troops choice, rather than 1-3, go figure).
Then there was the Aces High special rule possessed by the army list, which said that when buying Doctrines, wargear, and upgrades, the Tank Commanders had to have the most (or be tied for the most), followed by the Tank Aces, followed by regular tanks. So you could not have a regular tank more expensive or with more upgrades than a Tank Commander or Tank Ace, etc. This meant Tank Commanders were always more expensive than a basic russ, which put a slight amount of pressure to turn that Company CO/Company XO pair into just a Company CO.
I felt that the FOC was millstone around the neck of 40K from 3rd to 7th Ed. Using 8th/9th Ed Detachment rules you can make your Leman Russ Armoured Company with little fuss. Take a Spearhead with two or three Tank Commanders (Rule of 3 kicks in) and three Leman Russ Squadrons (of two tanks each probably at a 2000 point game). Add in a Tank Ace from For the Greater Good and you are there. I'm not saying it would be a particularly effective force, but you could make it.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
2021/01/25 19:45:42
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
TangoTwoBravo wrote: I felt that the FOC was millstone around the neck of 40K from 3rd to 7th Ed. Using 8th/9th Ed Detachment rules you can make your Leman Russ Armoured Company with little fuss. Take a Spearhead with two or three Tank Commanders (Rule of 3 kicks in) and three Leman Russ Squadrons (of two tanks each probably at a 2000 point game). Add in a Tank Ace from For the Greater Good and you are there. I'm not saying it would be a particularly effective force, but you could make it.
Right, but the problem here is the Too Many Tank Commanders problem. People don't take regular russes because they can take Tank Commanders. In the olden days with greater FOC limits, this wasn't a problem - and invoking the rule of 3 is funny, because it entirely exists as a fake-FOC to prevent you from taking too many of the same thing (which is what the old FOC accomplished before it was removed).
2021/01/25 19:50:12
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
I'm not sure you can adequately get a Leman Russ statline to where it should be in the current framework. Making it T9 could work, but heavily nerfs antitank weapons without at all touching some of the bigger threats (heavy bolter spam with RRs to wound, for example). Making it T10 would, but I am of the opinion that Lascannons shouldn't need 5s to wound a Russ. You could make the Leman Russ T16 and it would still be just as vulnerable to weapons with RR wounds or +1 to-wound access.
Conversely, you can't really thicken the armor. The only room left to expand is from a 3+ to a 2+, which is do-able but not really a very big durability improvement.
Lastly, the final lever is Wounds, which is probably the best place to make the adjustment, but you'd have to recalibrate it for many things in the game. If you give a Russ 16 wounds, how many should a Land Raider have? How many should a Baneblade have?
The current system has no "immune to small weapons, terrifically vulnerable to specific big weapons" The way the old Russ was.
Additionally, the new system doesn't allow for arcs, meaning any improvement in the Russ's durability is a flat increase no matter the situation, while the old Russ was terrifically strong from the front but there were things to which it was specifically weak (maneuver, and especially anything that hits rear armor).
In the good ol' days of 5th edition, there were very, very few vehicles with any armor facings at AV14. As I recall, it was really only the Land Raider, the Monolith, and the Leman Russ (forgive me if I'm forgetting one). The Land Raider currently is T8, 16 wounds, and a 2+ save. The Monolith is T8, 24 wounds, and a 2+ save. The Leman Russ is T8, 12 wounds, and a 3+ save. Now the Russ did have weaker side armor values (13) and a weaker rear (10-11), so having lower stats than the others makes sense, but I do think it's currently too far below them. I would probably bump it up to 14 wounds and a 2+ save. I think that would help its durability issues without forcing an adjustment of the other vehicles (except possible the Baneblade, which hey! It can be changed at the same time). Then we just gotta figure out weapons.
2021/01/25 20:07:52
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
TangoTwoBravo wrote: I felt that the FOC was millstone around the neck of 40K from 3rd to 7th Ed. Using 8th/9th Ed Detachment rules you can make your Leman Russ Armoured Company with little fuss. Take a Spearhead with two or three Tank Commanders (Rule of 3 kicks in) and three Leman Russ Squadrons (of two tanks each probably at a 2000 point game). Add in a Tank Ace from For the Greater Good and you are there. I'm not saying it would be a particularly effective force, but you could make it.
Right, but the problem here is the Too Many Tank Commanders problem. People don't take regular russes because they can take Tank Commanders. In the olden days with greater FOC limits, this wasn't a problem - and invoking the rule of 3 is funny, because it entirely exists as a fake-FOC to prevent you from taking too many of the same thing (which is what the old FOC accomplished before it was removed).
Call the Rule of Three what you want, but my point is that 8th and 9th allow you field a Leman Russ Company. Detachments were, in my view, a way to keep some sort of restriction while removing the requirements for special cases.
I think one of the two core issues being discussed in this thread is the situation of having Tank Commanders without having other Leman Russes. To some this might not be a problem - this is clear by the number people of do it!
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
2021/01/25 20:12:47
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Im not saying boosting its melee potential would fix it alone by any means, Im just saying as adding to the list of potential buffs would be cool, I think personally the best buff so far among the list of listed would be the -1 damage like deathguard and space marine dreadnoughts received, that alone, once again, I dont think would be sufficient, unfortunately I dont think the new imperial guard codex will release any time soon, I think gamesworkshop is trying to tease us with releases
2021/01/25 21:36:47
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Unit1126PLL wrote: How about both durable and powerful like it used to be, and then add a point cost to match?
And have the durability and power come from the statline, rather than rules.
The old way was that the Russ was stat-line powerful; AV14 with a battlecannon was pretty intimidating. Other tanks got durability from special rules, e.g. Eldar tanks (AV12 with smaller guns). Eldar tanks had Lance and Fast Skimmer/Holofields to balance things out, but it felt like the correct dichotomy (e.g. IG achieve parity through brute force and capability, while Eldar resort to shenanigans).
So what would your Leman Russ stat line look like? How about the weapon profile (for simplicity's sake, let's assume just the Battle Cannon for now)? I think that figuring out what the Russ should look in pure stats will allow you to point it, and then using that profile, you can figure out what additional rules or stats the Tank Commander should have, along with the points increase.
I'm not sure you can adequately get a Leman Russ statline to where it should be in the current framework. Making it T9 could work, but heavily nerfs antitank weapons without at all touching some of the bigger threats (heavy bolter spam with RRs to wound, for example). Making it T10 would, but I am of the opinion that Lascannons shouldn't need 5s to wound a Russ. You could make the Leman Russ T16 and it would still be just as vulnerable to weapons with RR wounds or +1 to-wound access.
Conversely, you can't really thicken the armor. The only room left to expand is from a 3+ to a 2+, which is do-able but not really a very big durability improvement.
Lastly, the final lever is Wounds, which is probably the best place to make the adjustment, but you'd have to recalibrate it for many things in the game. If you give a Russ 16 wounds, how many should a Land Raider have? How many should a Baneblade have?
The current system has no "immune to small weapons, terrifically vulnerable to specific big weapons" The way the old Russ was.
Additionally, the new system doesn't allow for arcs, meaning any improvement in the Russ's durability is a flat increase no matter the situation, while the old Russ was terrifically strong from the front but there were things to which it was specifically weak (maneuver, and especially anything that hits rear armor).
With regards to lascannnons, a Leman Russ used to require a 5 to mildly annoy and a 6 to give you a 1/6 chance of killing it with a Lascannon, so like honestly making LC's wound on 4's or 5's would be fine. I would move a lot of other vehicles toughness up. Personally, I think they really borked the vehicle design space by choosing 6/7/8 to be their toughness range, as if for some unknown reason susceptibility to small arms was a greater distinguisher of vehicle resilience than resistance to antitank weapons.
Moving to 7 for light open-topped vehicles and half-tanks like dreadnoughts, 8 for medium tanks like the predator, and 9 for heavy tanks like Land Raider or Leman Russ would at least add value to being S10 and S9 while still keeping them relatively fragile, moving to 8/9/10 would probably be most preferred.
Also, choosing to use the same save range for infantry is also bad, because basically all AT weapons are AP 2, 3, or 4; so tanks should intrinsically have a higher armor save than infantry to account.
CommunistNapkin wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: How about both durable and powerful like it used to be, and then add a point cost to match?
And have the durability and power come from the statline, rather than rules.
The old way was that the Russ was stat-line powerful; AV14 with a battlecannon was pretty intimidating. Other tanks got durability from special rules, e.g. Eldar tanks (AV12 with smaller guns). Eldar tanks had Lance and Fast Skimmer/Holofields to balance things out, but it felt like the correct dichotomy (e.g. IG achieve parity through brute force and capability, while Eldar resort to shenanigans).
So what would your Leman Russ stat line look like? How about the weapon profile (for simplicity's sake, let's assume just the Battle Cannon for now)? I think that figuring out what the Russ should look in pure stats will allow you to point it, and then using that profile, you can figure out what additional rules or stats the Tank Commander should have, along with the points increase.
I'll try to brainstorm something.
Assuming there isn't a universal vehicle rework and T8 is the upper limit for toughness and Sv2+ the limit for saves; and also assuming we want to keep consist close to as is without letting me mess things up:
Spoiler:
Leman Russ Tank Troop: - Heavy Support Contains - 1 Leman Russ Tank Troop Leader. May add 0-2 Leman Russ Tanks. Each model in the unit is equipped with a Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon, a Heavy Bolter, and Tank Tracks.
Leman Russ Tank Troop Leader: M10" WS6+ BS4+ S8 T8 W12 A3 Ld8 Sv2+ <This is the squad sergeant for the unit, so it has +1LD.>
Leman Russ Tank: M10" WS6+ BS4+ S8 T8 W12 A3 Ld7 Sv2+
Any models in the unit may replace it's Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon with a Turret-Mounted Vanquisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Demolisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon, Turret-Mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon, Turret-Mounted Exterminator Twin Autocannons, or Turret-Mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon.
Any models in the unit may replace it's Heavy Bolter with a Heavy Flamer or a Lascannon
Any models in the unit may add two Heavy Bolters, two Plasma Cannons, two Heavy Flamers, or two Multi-Meltas.
Any models in the unit may add a Hunter Killer Missile
Any models in the unit may add a Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter or Pintle-Mounted Heavy Stubber
All models in this unit may take upgrades from the Vehicle Upgrade List
Lumbering Behemoth: Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, subtract 1 from the damage characteristic of that attack. <protects the vehicle from heavy bolters, autocannons, and it's own high-rate-of-fire medium-damage weapons without as strongly impacting heavy AT guns, thus calling for big hits from big guns to knock this tank out>
Steady Advance: This unit cannot advance. During the shooting phase, if all models in this unit moved 5" or less or remained stationary, add 1 to to-hit rolls with Turret-Mounted weapons. <Changed grinding advance to be like the Aquilon Optics change. This also has the added bonus of improving the Leman Russ gun firepower to be more like the TC's>
Squadron Vox: This unit is considered to be in unit coherency as long as all models are within line-of-sight of the Leman Russ Troop Leader Tank <instead of breaking up, do this, so that they can be buffed as a group>
Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon :: Heavy 3d6d1, R72", S8, AP2, D3 "Blast"
Turret-Mounted Vanquisher Cannon :: Heavy 1, R72", S8, AP4, D2d6+6, "APFSDS: This weapon always wounds VEHICLE targets on a 2+"
Turret-Mounted Demolisher Cannon :: Heavy 3d3, R24", S10, AP3, D4 "Blast"
Turret-Mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon :: Heavy 20, R24", S5, AP-, D1
Turret-Mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon :: Heavy 3d6d1, R36", S6, Ap1, D3, "Blast" "Airburst: Attacks with this weapon always hit on a 4+ regardless of modifiers, and ignore the benefits of light cover."
Turret-Mounted Exterminator Twin Autocannons :: Heavy 8, R48", S7, AP1, D3
Turret-Mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon :: Heavy 4d3, R36", S7, AP3, D2 "Supercharge: Increase the S and D of this weapons by 1; each unmodified to-hit roll of 1 results in 1 mortal wound to the firing model" "Multiple Blast: Against INFANTRY, BIKER, or CAVALRY units, this weapon has a type of Heavy 12"
Tank Tracks :: Melee, S User, AP-2, D2
<One basic objective here is to limit the number of random variable on each gun profile. Either fix damage or fix shots. Also, bake in Grinding Advance into the profiles and improve their reliability [because right now, even with Grinding Advance, they're bad], and hope the +1BS for moving slow makes up the performance deficit>
<The Battle Cannon being increased to flat 3 makes it slightly more dangerous to marines, and eliminates some rolling. 3d6b1 helps to stabilize the shot output, and is slightly better than Catachan. Most of the performance increase comes from a BS increase. I would argue that this still isn't very good, but I don't want to push it too far and wind up with a tank too expensive to field a lot of. It averages 3 dead marines or 8 damage to vehicles reliably>
<The Vanquisher Cannon is a multi-melta with a wound bonus and more range, and +2 damage, which feels like an appropriate increase over a multimelta for a tank gun. This averages 8 damage to vehicles, so it could be better to make it stand out more than the battle cannon for it's single shot, but I'm hesitant to push it too far since it's not really 8 damage per turn, but more of a 50% chance of "die" to medium vehicles>
<Punisher seems fine as is>
<Eradicator has been in an awkward place, and kind of always will be. Making it always hit on a 4+ give it a role for shooting things like Eldar Bikes, at least, but it will always be a worse battle cannon>
<Exterminator gets D3, but is in an awkward situation of waiting for some kind of general change to be affected to autocannons anyway. I don't know what to do with it>
<Exterminator Plasma Cannon is now more anti-MEQ infantry than the Battle Cannon. I did the multiple blast thing the way it is to explicitly hit marine squads>
<Tank Tracks mean that getting run over by the tank is actually deadly, assuming it hits.>
Tank Company Commander: - HQ Contains - 1 Tank Company Commander. They are equipped with a Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon, a Heavy Bolter, and Tank Tracks.
Tank Company Commander: M10" WS6+ BS4+ S8 T8 W12 A3 Ld9 Sv2+
Any models in the unit may replace it's Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon with a Turret-Mounted Vanquisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Demolisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon, Turret-Mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon, Turret-Mounted Exterminator Twin Autocannons, or Turret-Mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon.
Any models in the unit may replace it's Heavy Bolter with a Heavy Flamer or a Lascannon
Any models in the unit may add two Heavy Bolters, two Plasma Cannons, two Heavy Flamers, or two Multi-Meltas.
Any models in the unit may add a Hunter Killer Missile
Any models in the unit may add a Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter or Pintle-Mounted Heavy Stubber
All models in this unit may take upgrades from the Vehicle Upgrade List
LEMAN RUSS, ASTRA MILITARUM, VEHICLE, <REGIMENT>, TANK COMMANDER, CHARACTER
Lumbering Behemoth: Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, subtract 1 from the damage characteristic of that attack.
Steady Advance: This unit cannot advance. During the shooting phase, if all models in this unit moved 5" or less or remained stationary, add 1 to to-hit rolls with Turret-Mounted weapons.
Tank Character: This unit is protected by Look Out Sir! as if it had less than 10 wounds if it is within 6" of a non-character <REGIMENT> LEMAN RUSS model.
Chain of Command: You may only include one Tank Commander per detachment.
Voice of Command [Armored Squadron]: During the Command Phase, this model may issue up to 2 Tank Orders to friendly <REGIMENT> ARMORED SQUADRON units anywhere on the battlefield.
Careful Aim!: If all models in this unit remain stationary, they may re-roll to-hit rolls of 1 with Turret Weapons <I'm hesitant in general to assign a re-roll ability, but I want there to be a desirable offensive order>
Defensive Fire!: Models in this unit may fire overwatch, and hit on a 4+ when firing overwatch with weapons that are not Turret-Mounted.
Full Advance!: Models in this unit may advance this turn. If they could already advance, they advance 6" and do not roll.
Overrun!: Models in this unit are considered to have a weapons skill of 2+ until the end of the turn if the unit completes a charge this turn. They may not shoot this turn.
<Hellhound troops should also gain the ARMORED SQUADRON keyword, and be valid tank company orders targets. Artillery elements and sentinels would get their own Artillery Orders from the Master of the Ordnance>
Tank Ace: - Elite Contains - 1 Tank Ace. They are equipped with a Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon, a Heavy Bolter, and Tank Tracks.
Tank Ace: M10" WS6+ BS3+ S8 T8 W12 A3 Ld8 Sv2+
Any models in the unit may replace it's Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon with a Turret-Mounted Vanquisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Demolisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon, Turret-Mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon, Turret-Mounted Exterminator Twin Autocannons, or Turret-Mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon.
Any models in the unit may replace it's Heavy Bolter with a Heavy Flamer or a Lascannon
Any models in the unit may add two Heavy Bolters, two Plasma Cannons, two Heavy Flamers, or two Multi-Meltas.
Any models in the unit may add a Hunter Killer Missile
Any models in the unit may add a Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter or Pintle-Mounted Heavy Stubber
All models in this unit may take upgrades from the Vehicle Upgrade List
LEMAN RUSS, ASTRA MILITARUM, VEHICLE, <REGIMENT>, TANK ACE, CHARACTER
Lumbering Behemoth: Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, subtract 1 from the damage characteristic of that attack.
Steady Advance: This unit cannot advance. During the shooting phase, if all models in this unit moved 5" or less or remained stationary, add 1 to to-hit rolls with Turret-Mounted weapons.
Tank Character: This unit is protected by Look Out Sir! as if it had less than 10 wounds if it is within 6" of a non-character <REGIMENT> LEMAN RUSS model.
Ace Tanker: You may only include one Tank Ace per detachment, and only if you include at least 1 ARMORED SQUADRON unit.
<Tank Commander loses the bonus BS to have it moved to a Tank Ace, that can't be buffed with orders>
<The basic idea here would be that Tank Commanders and Tank Aces are desirable to include in a army that has a lot of tanks, but either aren't or can't be if you haven't done so. By splitting the TC's orders and BS across different units, it also avoids the issue of self-buffing being the most efficient course of action.>
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/26 06:06:18
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2021/01/25 22:08:32
Subject: Re:How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Chris521 wrote: Points should be the last thing to be adjusted.
You have to be kidding, points are always the first thing to change when something is underperforming. Rules should be changed as a last resort because it will force everybody that plays with and against them to change their expectations for how the unit performs on the battlefield and cause people to look more in their rulebooks and less at the game table. Rules changes should only ever be implemented to make a unit more fun or fluffy, never to balance a unit against some artificial points level they were accidentally put on.
bat702 wrote: I'd prefer them to get buffs vs point drops, I want the tank to be imposing on the battlefield, not turn into a meme about how the emperor is the king of mass production
Except that is part of what has made Leman Russ Battle Tanks popular with the Imperial Guard, they are not knights or titans. "The tank’s rugged simplicity and ease of manufacture ensures that the Imperium can field whole companies of Leman Russ with ease, burying the outnumbered foe..."
"With a trio of lancing blasts the Aeldari incinerated an entire squadron of Leman Russ Battle Tanks while weaving deftly between the returning Imperial fire..." that is a single Fire Prism taking on several squadrons of Leman Russes. Both of these quotes are from Codex Astra Militarum.
2021/01/25 22:49:22
Subject: Re:How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Chris521 wrote: Points should be the last thing to be adjusted.
You have to be kidding, points are always the first thing to change when something is underperforming.
I think Chris521 was saying that they shouldn't be changed first, at least in this case. GW certainly seems to prefer changing cost to changing rules, but that doesn't always work and the LR needs more than a points drop to be worth taking.
2021/01/25 22:55:59
Subject: Re:How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Chris521 wrote: Points should be the last thing to be adjusted.
You have to be kidding, points are always the first thing to change when something is underperforming.
I think Chris521 was saying that they shouldn't be changed first, at least in this case. GW certainly seems to prefer changing cost to changing rules, but that doesn't always work and the LR needs more than a points drop to be worth taking.
Eh, I'd happily take nine 10-point Leman Russes.
I do agree with the general thrust of "I'd rather see the Leman Russ be cool and good, than just cheap enough to be good."
Because, sure, it's a simple tank. It's a common tank. But it's still a main battle tank.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2021/01/25 23:15:24
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Lastly, the final lever is Wounds, which is probably the best place to make the adjustment, but you'd have to recalibrate it for many things in the game. If you give a Russ 16 wounds, how many should a Land Raider have? How many should a Baneblade have?
In all fairness, I'd argue these also need much the same treatment as the Russ in general for many of the same reasons, particularly the Baneblade has become significantly less durable relative to other tanks compared with previous iterations and editions since the 8E switchover.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2021/01/25 23:29:10
Subject: Re:How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
On the one hand: Y E S
On the other hand: I really hope that GW never goes so far off the rails to do something like that (not unless this is some kind of "'Power Level'? What's that? We only have 'Imperatorium Logistipoints' now." move)
2021/01/25 23:29:54
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Unit1126PLL wrote: How about both durable and powerful like it used to be, and then add a point cost to match?
And have the durability and power come from the statline, rather than rules.
The old way was that the Russ was stat-line powerful; AV14 with a battlecannon was pretty intimidating. Other tanks got durability from special rules, e.g. Eldar tanks (AV12 with smaller guns). Eldar tanks had Lance and Fast Skimmer/Holofields to balance things out, but it felt like the correct dichotomy (e.g. IG achieve parity through brute force and capability, while Eldar resort to shenanigans).
So what would your Leman Russ stat line look like? How about the weapon profile (for simplicity's sake, let's assume just the Battle Cannon for now)? I think that figuring out what the Russ should look in pure stats will allow you to point it, and then using that profile, you can figure out what additional rules or stats the Tank Commander should have, along with the points increase.
I'm not sure you can adequately get a Leman Russ statline to where it should be in the current framework. Making it T9 could work, but heavily nerfs antitank weapons without at all touching some of the bigger threats (heavy bolter spam with RRs to wound, for example). Making it T10 would, but I am of the opinion that Lascannons shouldn't need 5s to wound a Russ. You could make the Leman Russ T16 and it would still be just as vulnerable to weapons with RR wounds or +1 to-wound access.
Conversely, you can't really thicken the armor. The only room left to expand is from a 3+ to a 2+, which is do-able but not really a very big durability improvement.
Lastly, the final lever is Wounds, which is probably the best place to make the adjustment, but you'd have to recalibrate it for many things in the game. If you give a Russ 16 wounds, how many should a Land Raider have? How many should a Baneblade have?
The current system has no "immune to small weapons, terrifically vulnerable to specific big weapons" The way the old Russ was.
Additionally, the new system doesn't allow for arcs, meaning any improvement in the Russ's durability is a flat increase no matter the situation, while the old Russ was terrifically strong from the front but there were things to which it was specifically weak (maneuver, and especially anything that hits rear armor).
With regards to lascannnons, a Leman Russ used to require a 5 to mildly annoy and a 6 to give you a 1/6 chance of killing it with a Lascannon, so like honestly making LC's wound on 4's or 5's would be fine. I would move a lot of other vehicles toughness up. Personally, I think they really borked the vehicle design space by choosing 6/7/8 to be their toughness range, as if for some unknown reason susceptibility to small arms was a greater distinguisher of vehicle resilience than resistance to antitank weapons.
Moving to 7 for light open-topped vehicles and half-tanks like dreadnoughts, 8 for medium tanks like the predator, and 9 for heavy tanks like Land Raider or Leman Russ would at least add value to being S10 and S9 while still keeping them relatively fragile, moving to 8/9/10 would probably be most preferred.
Also, choosing to use the same save range for infantry is also bad, because basically all AT weapons are AP 2, 3, or 4; so tanks should intrinsically have a higher armor save than infantry to account.
CommunistNapkin wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: How about both durable and powerful like it used to be, and then add a point cost to match?
And have the durability and power come from the statline, rather than rules.
The old way was that the Russ was stat-line powerful; AV14 with a battlecannon was pretty intimidating. Other tanks got durability from special rules, e.g. Eldar tanks (AV12 with smaller guns). Eldar tanks had Lance and Fast Skimmer/Holofields to balance things out, but it felt like the correct dichotomy (e.g. IG achieve parity through brute force and capability, while Eldar resort to shenanigans).
So what would your Leman Russ stat line look like? How about the weapon profile (for simplicity's sake, let's assume just the Battle Cannon for now)? I think that figuring out what the Russ should look in pure stats will allow you to point it, and then using that profile, you can figure out what additional rules or stats the Tank Commander should have, along with the points increase.
I'll try to brainstorm something.
Assuming there isn't a universal vehicle rework and T8 is the upper limit for toughness and Sv2+ the limit for saves; and also assuming we want to keep consist close to as is without letting me mess things up:
Spoiler:
Leman Russ Tank Troop: - Heavy Support Contains - 1 Leman Russ Tank Troop Leader. May add 0-2 Leman Russ Tanks. Each model in the unit is equipped with a Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon, a Heavy Bolter, and Tank Tracks.
Leman Russ Tank Troop Leader: M10" WS6+ BS4+ S8 T8 W12 A3 Ld8 Sv2+ <This is the squad sergeant for the unit, so it has +1LD.>
Leman Russ Tank: M10" WS6+ BS4+ S8 T8 W12 A3 Ld7 Sv2+
Any models in the unit may replace it's Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon with a Turret-Mounted Vanquisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Demolisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon, Turret-Mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon, Turret-Mounted Exterminator Twin Autocannons, or Turret-Mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon.
Any models in the unit may replace it's Heavy Bolter with a Heavy Flamer or a Lascannon
Any models in the unit may add two Heavy Bolters, two Plasma Cannons, two Heavy Flamers, or two Multi-Meltas.
Any models in the unit may add a Hunter Killer Missile
Any models in the unit may add a Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter or Pintle-Mounted Heavy Stubber
All models in this unit may take upgrades from the Vehicle Upgrade List
Lumbering Behemoth: Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, subtract 1 from the damage characteristic of that attack. <protects the vehicle from heavy bolters, autocannons, and it's own high-rate-of-fire medium-damage weapons without as strongly impacting heavy AT guns, thus calling for big hits from big guns to knock this tank out>
Steady Advance: This unit cannot advance. During the shooting phase, if all models in this unit moved 5" or less or remained stationary, add 1 to to-hit rolls with Turret-Mounted weapons. <Changed grinding advance to be like the Aquilon Optics change. This also has the added bonus of improving the Leman Russ gun firepower to be more like the TC's>
Squadron Vox: This unit is considered to be in unit coherency as long as all models are within line-of-sight of the Leman Russ Troop Leader Tank <instead of breaking up, do this, so that they can be buffed as a group>
Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon :: Heavy 3d6b1, R72", S8, AP2, D3 "Blast"
Turret-Mounted Vanquisher Cannon :: Heavy 1, R72", S8, AP4, D2d6+6, "APFSDS: This weapon always wounds VEHICLE targets on a 2+"
Turret-Mounted Demolisher Cannon :: Heavy 3d3, R24", S10, AP3, D4 "Blast"
Turret-Mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon :: Heavy 20, R24", S5, AP-, D1
Turret-Mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon :: Heavy 3d6b1, R36", S6, Ap1, D3, "Blast" "Airburst: Attacks with this weapon always hit on a 4+ regardless of modifiers, and ignore the benefits of light cover."
Turret-Mounted Exterminator Twin Autocannons :: Heavy 8, R48", S7, AP1, D3
Turret-Mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon :: Heavy 4d3, R36", S7, AP3, D2 "Supercharge: Increase the S and D of this weapons by 1; each unmodified to-hit roll of 1 results in 1 mortal wound to the firing model" "Multiple Blast: Against INFANTRY, BIKER, or CAVALRY units, this weapon has a type of Heavy 12"
Tank Tracks :: Melee, S User, AP-2, D2
<One basic objective here is to limit the number of random variable on each gun profile. Either fix damage or fix shots. Also, bake in Grinding Advance into the profiles and improve their reliability [because right now, even with Grinding Advance, they're bad], and hope the +1BS for moving slow makes up the performance deficit>
<The Battle Cannon being increased to flat 3 makes it slightly more dangerous to marines, and eliminates some rolling. 3d6b1 helps to stabilize the shot output, and is slightly better than Catachan. Most of the performance increase comes from a BS increase. I would argue that this still isn't very good, but I don't want to push it too far and wind up with a tank too expensive to field a lot of. It averages 3 dead marines or 8 damage to vehicles reliably>
<The Vanquisher Cannon is a multi-melta with a wound bonus and more range, and +2 damage, which feels like an appropriate increase over a multimelta for a tank gun. This averages 8 damage to vehicles, so it could be better to make it stand out more than the battle cannon for it's single shot, but I'm hesitant to push it too far since it's not really 8 damage per turn, but more of a 50% chance of "die" to medium vehicles>
<Punisher seems fine as is>
<Eradicator has been in an awkward place, and kind of always will be. Making it always hit on a 4+ give it a role for shooting things like Eldar Bikes, at least, but it will always be a worse battle cannon>
<Exterminator gets D3, but is in an awkward situation of waiting for some kind of general change to be affected to autocannons anyway. I don't know what to do with it>
<Exterminator Plasma Cannon is now more anti-MEQ infantry than the Battle Cannon. I did the multiple blast thing the way it is to explicitly hit marine squads>
<Tank Tracks mean that getting run over by the tank is actually deadly, assuming it hits.>
Tank Company Commander: - HQ Contains - 1 Tank Company Commander. They are equipped with a Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon, a Heavy Bolter, and Tank Tracks.
Tank Company Commander: M10" WS6+ BS4+ S8 T8 W12 A3 Ld9 Sv2+
Any models in the unit may replace it's Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon with a Turret-Mounted Vanquisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Demolisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon, Turret-Mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon, Turret-Mounted Exterminator Twin Autocannons, or Turret-Mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon.
Any models in the unit may replace it's Heavy Bolter with a Heavy Flamer or a Lascannon
Any models in the unit may add two Heavy Bolters, two Plasma Cannons, two Heavy Flamers, or two Multi-Meltas.
Any models in the unit may add a Hunter Killer Missile
Any models in the unit may add a Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter or Pintle-Mounted Heavy Stubber
All models in this unit may take upgrades from the Vehicle Upgrade List
LEMAN RUSS, ASTRA MILITARUM, VEHICLE, <REGIMENT>, TANK COMMANDER, CHARACTER
Lumbering Behemoth: Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, subtract 1 from the damage characteristic of that attack.
Steady Advance: This unit cannot advance. During the shooting phase, if all models in this unit moved 5" or less or remained stationary, add 1 to to-hit rolls with Turret-Mounted weapons.
Tank Character: This unit is protected by Look Out Sir! as if it had less than 10 wounds if it is within 6" of a non-character <REGIMENT> LEMAN RUSS model.
Chain of Command: You may only include one Tank Commander per detachment.
Voice of Command [Armored Squadron]: During the Command Phase, this model may issue up to 2 Tank Orders to friendly <REGIMENT> ARMORED SQUADRON units anywhere on the battlefield.
Careful Aim!: If all models in this unit remain stationary, they may re-roll to-hit rolls of 1 with Turret Weapons <I'm hesitant in general to assign a re-roll ability, but I want there to be a desirable offensive order>
Defensive Fire!: Models in this unit may fire overwatch, and hit on a 4+ when firing overwatch with weapons that are not Turret-Mounted.
Full Advance!: Models in this unit may advance this turn. If they could already advance, they advance 6" and do not roll.
Overrun!: Models in this unit are considered to have a weapons skill of 2+ until the end of the turn if the unit completes a charge this turn. They may not shoot this turn.
<Hellhound troops should also gain the ARMORED SQUADRON keyword, and be valid tank company orders targets. Artillery elements and sentinels would get their own Artillery Orders from the Master of the Ordnance>
Tank Ace: - Elite Contains - 1 Tank Ace. They are equipped with a Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon, a Heavy Bolter, and Tank Tracks.
Tank Ace: M10" WS6+ BS3+ S8 T8 W12 A3 Ld8 Sv2+
Any models in the unit may replace it's Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon with a Turret-Mounted Vanquisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Demolisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon, Turret-Mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon, Turret-Mounted Exterminator Twin Autocannons, or Turret-Mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon.
Any models in the unit may replace it's Heavy Bolter with a Heavy Flamer or a Lascannon
Any models in the unit may add two Heavy Bolters, two Plasma Cannons, two Heavy Flamers, or two Multi-Meltas.
Any models in the unit may add a Hunter Killer Missile
Any models in the unit may add a Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter or Pintle-Mounted Heavy Stubber
All models in this unit may take upgrades from the Vehicle Upgrade List
LEMAN RUSS, ASTRA MILITARUM, VEHICLE, <REGIMENT>, TANK ACE, CHARACTER
Lumbering Behemoth: Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, subtract 1 from the damage characteristic of that attack.
Steady Advance: This unit cannot advance. During the shooting phase, if all models in this unit moved 5" or less or remained stationary, add 1 to to-hit rolls with Turret-Mounted weapons.
Tank Character: This unit is protected by Look Out Sir! as if it had less than 10 wounds if it is within 6" of a non-character <REGIMENT> LEMAN RUSS model.
Ace Tanker: You may only include one Tank Ace per detachment, and only if you include at least 1 ARMORED SQUADRON unit.
<Tank Commander loses the bonus BS to have it moved to a Tank Ace, that can't be buffed with orders>
<The basic idea here would be that Tank Commanders and Tank Aces are desirable to include in a army that has a lot of tanks, but either aren't or can't be if you haven't done so. By splitting the TC's orders and BS across different units, it also avoids the issue of self-buffing being the most efficient course of action.>
All I can say is WOW are you in for a point's increase and then some.
you've just described a 150 point weapon profile right there thats 1.5 RFBC FFS.
Heck bolting that onto a chimera results in a 220 point model before you even consider paying for the T8 vrs T7 and the +2W and that you're adding a 2+ save.
Adding that level of firepower to a 160 point model with 2+ save -1 damage and you'll break the game.
2021/01/25 23:39:58
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
what is 3d6b1 supposed to be then? Heavy 3? I can't seen many guard players being pro that they've got used to an avarage of 4 shots twice.
Heavy d6?
Or Heavy 3d6?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/25 23:44:53
2021/01/25 23:52:11
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
what is 3d6b1 supposed to be then? Heavy 3? I can't seen many guard players being pro that they've got used to an avarage of 4 shots twice.
Heavy d6?
Or Heavy 3d6?
Pretty sure it means roll 3d6 toss the lowest. Like the old melta half range damage rule. I'm sure Inquisitor Lord Katherine or JNAPRODUCTIONS will correct me if I'm wrong.
Edit: And JNA did.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/25 23:54:56
2021/01/26 00:07:30
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
what is 3d6b1 supposed to be then? Heavy 3? I can't seen many guard players being pro that they've got used to an avarage of 4 shots twice.
Heavy d6?
Or Heavy 3d6?
Pretty sure it means roll 3d6 toss the lowest. Like the old melta half range damage rule. I'm sure Inquisitor Lord Katherine or JNAPRODUCTIONS will correct me if I'm wrong.
Edit: And JNA did.
Yeah. I've also seen XdYkZ, for roll X dice of Y sides and keep Z of them. XdYklZ if you get rid of higher numbers.
The "k" and "kl" stand for keep and keep low.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2021/01/26 00:14:50
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Unit1126PLL wrote: How about both durable and powerful like it used to be, and then add a point cost to match?
And have the durability and power come from the statline, rather than rules.
The old way was that the Russ was stat-line powerful; AV14 with a battlecannon was pretty intimidating. Other tanks got durability from special rules, e.g. Eldar tanks (AV12 with smaller guns). Eldar tanks had Lance and Fast Skimmer/Holofields to balance things out, but it felt like the correct dichotomy (e.g. IG achieve parity through brute force and capability, while Eldar resort to shenanigans).
So what would your Leman Russ stat line look like? How about the weapon profile (for simplicity's sake, let's assume just the Battle Cannon for now)? I think that figuring out what the Russ should look in pure stats will allow you to point it, and then using that profile, you can figure out what additional rules or stats the Tank Commander should have, along with the points increase.
I'm not sure you can adequately get a Leman Russ statline to where it should be in the current framework. Making it T9 could work, but heavily nerfs antitank weapons without at all touching some of the bigger threats (heavy bolter spam with RRs to wound, for example). Making it T10 would, but I am of the opinion that Lascannons shouldn't need 5s to wound a Russ. You could make the Leman Russ T16 and it would still be just as vulnerable to weapons with RR wounds or +1 to-wound access.
Conversely, you can't really thicken the armor. The only room left to expand is from a 3+ to a 2+, which is do-able but not really a very big durability improvement.
Lastly, the final lever is Wounds, which is probably the best place to make the adjustment, but you'd have to recalibrate it for many things in the game. If you give a Russ 16 wounds, how many should a Land Raider have? How many should a Baneblade have?
The current system has no "immune to small weapons, terrifically vulnerable to specific big weapons" The way the old Russ was.
Additionally, the new system doesn't allow for arcs, meaning any improvement in the Russ's durability is a flat increase no matter the situation, while the old Russ was terrifically strong from the front but there were things to which it was specifically weak (maneuver, and especially anything that hits rear armor).
Yeah, without a full redo of how vehicles and anti tank weapons work with a higher baseline than T 6/7/8 for vehicles and higher strength for anti tank, there is somewhat little design space to maneuver.
In terms of durability, and assuming GW keeps the T8 maximum still.
2+ save, bump wounds to 15.
After that, I can only really think of special rules in order to show its toughness. The -1 damage one is boring and is a nerf to the weapons that should do best verses it. Plus it has been given to a bunch of units already and if it just keeps getting handed out like candy, it no longer feels special. An invulnerable save is a bandaid fix and just makes anti tank even worse in general, we should be seeing less of them, not more.
For the Russ, I'd say maybe a special rule that reads something like "Reduce the AP of weapons with AP -1 or AP -2 by 1, if it already has a trait that reduces AP, reduce it by 2 (to a max of AP 0)"
That way, anti tank weapons can still put the hurt on with their AP -3 and -4, while incidental fire from weaker arms are more likely to bounce off of it. The handful of extra wounds and 2+ save means the Russ means it will survive an extra shot or two from the big guns, while reducing the effectiveness of Heavy Bolters, and Autocannons and the like means chip damage is harder.
A perfect fix? Not at all, but it at least makes it more durable in general while still weak vs the type of weapons that should counter it.
2021/01/26 00:40:19
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Assuming there isn't a universal vehicle rework and T8 is the upper limit for toughness and Sv2+ the limit for saves; and also assuming we want to keep consist close to as is without letting me mess things up:
Spoiler:
Leman Russ Tank Troop: - Heavy Support Contains - 1 Leman Russ Tank Troop Leader. May add 0-2 Leman Russ Tanks. Each model in the unit is equipped with a Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon, a Heavy Bolter, and Tank Tracks.
Leman Russ Tank Troop Leader: M10" WS6+ BS4+ S8 T8 W12 A3 Ld8 Sv2+ <This is the squad sergeant for the unit, so it has +1LD.>
Leman Russ Tank: M10" WS6+ BS4+ S8 T8 W12 A3 Ld7 Sv2+
Any models in the unit may replace it's Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon with a Turret-Mounted Vanquisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Demolisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon, Turret-Mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon, Turret-Mounted Exterminator Twin Autocannons, or Turret-Mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon.
Any models in the unit may replace it's Heavy Bolter with a Heavy Flamer or a Lascannon
Any models in the unit may add two Heavy Bolters, two Plasma Cannons, two Heavy Flamers, or two Multi-Meltas.
Any models in the unit may add a Hunter Killer Missile
Any models in the unit may add a Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter or Pintle-Mounted Heavy Stubber
All models in this unit may take upgrades from the Vehicle Upgrade List
Lumbering Behemoth: Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, subtract 1 from the damage characteristic of that attack. <protects the vehicle from heavy bolters, autocannons, and it's own high-rate-of-fire medium-damage weapons without as strongly impacting heavy AT guns, thus calling for big hits from big guns to knock this tank out>
Steady Advance: This unit cannot advance. During the shooting phase, if all models in this unit moved 5" or less or remained stationary, add 1 to to-hit rolls with Turret-Mounted weapons. <Changed grinding advance to be like the Aquilon Optics change. This also has the added bonus of improving the Leman Russ gun firepower to be more like the TC's>
Squadron Vox: This unit is considered to be in unit coherency as long as all models are within line-of-sight of the Leman Russ Troop Leader Tank <instead of breaking up, do this, so that they can be buffed as a group>
Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon :: Heavy 3d6b1, R72", S8, AP2, D3 "Blast"
Turret-Mounted Vanquisher Cannon :: Heavy 1, R72", S8, AP4, D2d6+6, "APFSDS: This weapon always wounds VEHICLE targets on a 2+"
Turret-Mounted Demolisher Cannon :: Heavy 3d3, R24", S10, AP3, D4 "Blast"
Turret-Mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon :: Heavy 20, R24", S5, AP-, D1
Turret-Mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon :: Heavy 3d6b1, R36", S6, Ap1, D3, "Blast" "Airburst: Attacks with this weapon always hit on a 4+ regardless of modifiers, and ignore the benefits of light cover."
Turret-Mounted Exterminator Twin Autocannons :: Heavy 8, R48", S7, AP1, D3
Turret-Mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon :: Heavy 4d3, R36", S7, AP3, D2 "Supercharge: Increase the S and D of this weapons by 1; each unmodified to-hit roll of 1 results in 1 mortal wound to the firing model" "Multiple Blast: Against INFANTRY, BIKER, or CAVALRY units, this weapon has a type of Heavy 12"
Tank Tracks :: Melee, S User, AP-2, D2
<One basic objective here is to limit the number of random variable on each gun profile. Either fix damage or fix shots. Also, bake in Grinding Advance into the profiles and improve their reliability [because right now, even with Grinding Advance, they're bad], and hope the +1BS for moving slow makes up the performance deficit>
<The Battle Cannon being increased to flat 3 makes it slightly more dangerous to marines, and eliminates some rolling. 3d6b1 helps to stabilize the shot output, and is slightly better than Catachan. Most of the performance increase comes from a BS increase. I would argue that this still isn't very good, but I don't want to push it too far and wind up with a tank too expensive to field a lot of. It averages 3 dead marines or 8 damage to vehicles reliably>
<The Vanquisher Cannon is a multi-melta with a wound bonus and more range, and +2 damage, which feels like an appropriate increase over a multimelta for a tank gun. This averages 8 damage to vehicles, so it could be better to make it stand out more than the battle cannon for it's single shot, but I'm hesitant to push it too far since it's not really 8 damage per turn, but more of a 50% chance of "die" to medium vehicles>
<Punisher seems fine as is>
<Eradicator has been in an awkward place, and kind of always will be. Making it always hit on a 4+ give it a role for shooting things like Eldar Bikes, at least, but it will always be a worse battle cannon>
<Exterminator gets D3, but is in an awkward situation of waiting for some kind of general change to be affected to autocannons anyway. I don't know what to do with it>
<Exterminator Plasma Cannon is now more anti-MEQ infantry than the Battle Cannon. I did the multiple blast thing the way it is to explicitly hit marine squads>
<Tank Tracks mean that getting run over by the tank is actually deadly, assuming it hits.>
Tank Company Commander: - HQ Contains - 1 Tank Company Commander. They are equipped with a Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon, a Heavy Bolter, and Tank Tracks.
Tank Company Commander: M10" WS6+ BS4+ S8 T8 W12 A3 Ld9 Sv2+
Any models in the unit may replace it's Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon with a Turret-Mounted Vanquisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Demolisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon, Turret-Mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon, Turret-Mounted Exterminator Twin Autocannons, or Turret-Mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon.
Any models in the unit may replace it's Heavy Bolter with a Heavy Flamer or a Lascannon
Any models in the unit may add two Heavy Bolters, two Plasma Cannons, two Heavy Flamers, or two Multi-Meltas.
Any models in the unit may add a Hunter Killer Missile
Any models in the unit may add a Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter or Pintle-Mounted Heavy Stubber
All models in this unit may take upgrades from the Vehicle Upgrade List
LEMAN RUSS, ASTRA MILITARUM, VEHICLE, <REGIMENT>, TANK COMMANDER, CHARACTER
Lumbering Behemoth: Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, subtract 1 from the damage characteristic of that attack.
Steady Advance: This unit cannot advance. During the shooting phase, if all models in this unit moved 5" or less or remained stationary, add 1 to to-hit rolls with Turret-Mounted weapons.
Tank Character: This unit is protected by Look Out Sir! as if it had less than 10 wounds if it is within 6" of a non-character <REGIMENT> LEMAN RUSS model.
Chain of Command: You may only include one Tank Commander per detachment.
Voice of Command [Armored Squadron]: During the Command Phase, this model may issue up to 2 Tank Orders to friendly <REGIMENT> ARMORED SQUADRON units anywhere on the battlefield.
Careful Aim!: If all models in this unit remain stationary, they may re-roll to-hit rolls of 1 with Turret Weapons <I'm hesitant in general to assign a re-roll ability, but I want there to be a desirable offensive order>
Defensive Fire!: Models in this unit may fire overwatch, and hit on a 4+ when firing overwatch with weapons that are not Turret-Mounted.
Full Advance!: Models in this unit may advance this turn. If they could already advance, they advance 6" and do not roll.
Overrun!: Models in this unit are considered to have a weapons skill of 2+ until the end of the turn if the unit completes a charge this turn. They may not shoot this turn.
<Hellhound troops should also gain the ARMORED SQUADRON keyword, and be valid tank company orders targets. Artillery elements and sentinels would get their own Artillery Orders from the Master of the Ordnance>
Tank Ace: - Elite Contains - 1 Tank Ace. They are equipped with a Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon, a Heavy Bolter, and Tank Tracks.
Tank Ace: M10" WS6+ BS3+ S8 T8 W12 A3 Ld8 Sv2+
Any models in the unit may replace it's Turret-Mounted Battle Cannon with a Turret-Mounted Vanquisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Demolisher Cannon, Turret-Mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon, Turret-Mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon, Turret-Mounted Exterminator Twin Autocannons, or Turret-Mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon.
Any models in the unit may replace it's Heavy Bolter with a Heavy Flamer or a Lascannon
Any models in the unit may add two Heavy Bolters, two Plasma Cannons, two Heavy Flamers, or two Multi-Meltas.
Any models in the unit may add a Hunter Killer Missile
Any models in the unit may add a Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter or Pintle-Mounted Heavy Stubber
All models in this unit may take upgrades from the Vehicle Upgrade List
LEMAN RUSS, ASTRA MILITARUM, VEHICLE, <REGIMENT>, TANK ACE, CHARACTER
Lumbering Behemoth: Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, subtract 1 from the damage characteristic of that attack.
Steady Advance: This unit cannot advance. During the shooting phase, if all models in this unit moved 5" or less or remained stationary, add 1 to to-hit rolls with Turret-Mounted weapons.
Tank Character: This unit is protected by Look Out Sir! as if it had less than 10 wounds if it is within 6" of a non-character <REGIMENT> LEMAN RUSS model.
Ace Tanker: You may only include one Tank Ace per detachment, and only if you include at least 1 ARMORED SQUADRON unit.
<Tank Commander loses the bonus BS to have it moved to a Tank Ace, that can't be buffed with orders>
<The basic idea here would be that Tank Commanders and Tank Aces are desirable to include in a army that has a lot of tanks, but either aren't or can't be if you haven't done so. By splitting the TC's orders and BS across different units, it also avoids the issue of self-buffing being the most efficient course of action.>
Interesting, but a bit radical for my taste. I think enough changes can be made without going this far. Basic ideas from my brainstorm:
Leave the base Leman Russ unit as it is except:
Grinding Advance: This unit cannot Advance and ignores the movement modifier for Difficult Ground.
Main Battle TankThis model has a +1 Save Modifier against attacks with Damage Characteristic of 1 or 2.
[list]Gain Core Keyword.
Weapon Updates:
[/list]Battle Cannon: Damage is 3 rather than D3.
Eradicator Nova Cannon is Damage 2 rather than D3
Executioner Plasma Cannon is Heavy 3D3
Vanquisher Battle Cannon is Damage D3+3 and it's Ability is "When targeting Monstrous Creatures or Vehicle this weapon is Heavy 2 and may reroll To-Hit and To-Wound roles.
The Tank Commander get the same updates as the Russ, but Tank Orders are changed:
Tank Orders: This model can issue one order each turn that affect up to two friendly <Regiment> Leman Russ at the start of the Shooting Phase. Pick one order form the Tank Order list and issue that order to two Leman Russ models within 9" of this model. Each Leman Russ can only be the target of one Tank Order per turn.
Full Throttle!: Instead of shooting this phase, the ordered model may immediately move as if it were the Movement Phase. It cannot declare a charge this turn.
On My Target!: The ordered model is +1 on Hit rolls against the target of the Tank Commander's Turret weapon until the end of the phase.
Defensive Fire!: The ordered model is +1 to Hit with non-Turret weapons against targets within 12". If firing a Heavy Flamer, it may reroll the number of shots.
2021/01/26 00:42:42
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
JNAProductions wrote: Note, Alextroy: The Keyword is MONSTER, not MONSTROUS CREATURE.
I'd also make the Vanquisher at LEAST Strength 9, so it can wound on 3+ against most things.
I'm betting that the Vanquisher will go to: Heavy 1, S16, AP-4, D9. Exactly like the Macharius Vanquisher, but half the shots, because it has half the number of barrels.
The special ability will be: Each time an attack is made with this weapon against a VEHICLE or MONSTER unit, add 1 to the attack's hit roll.
Again, same as the Macharius Vanquisher.
2021/01/26 01:36:50
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Gadzilla666 wrote: ...I'm betting that the Vanquisher will go to: Heavy 1, S16, AP-4, D9. Exactly like the Macharius Vanquisher, but half the shots, because it has half the number of barrels...
Surely not, it'll be Heavy 2 and still get Grinding Advance. They can't possibly consider making a FW unit in any way cost-effective. (I read the Fellblade profile this morning, it's got twice the barrels of a Baneblade and only 2/3rds the shots.)
This had already come up in this thread, but until they re-balance vehicle toughness across all armies fixing the Leman Russ will be difficult.
I think it should go to T10 with 15-16 wounds and give it a 1+ armor save (a Land Raider would then be something like T10, 18-20 wounds, 1+ armor save). I believe durability is the factor that needs fixed with the Leman Russ. The T10, extra wounds, and 1+ armor save will help it a lot against massed small arms fire. This would probably also need to coincide with a small increase to the strength of some anti-tank weapons. For example, T'au railguns could go to S12 and melta could be S12 at half range perhaps (melta is sort of a mess right now though). If you really wanted to you could even increase anti-tank AP to -5 to get the same AP effects with it while the 1+ save still helps against small arms a bit.
Needless to say, I feel like there will need to be changes across more than just the Imperial Guard book to get the Leman Russ to where it should be.
2021/01/26 03:01:54
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Mud Turkey 13 wrote: This had already come up in this thread, but until they re-balance vehicle toughness across all armies fixing the Leman Russ will be difficult.
I think it should go to T10 with 15-16 wounds and give it a 1+ armor save (a Land Raider would then be something like T10, 18-20 wounds, 1+ armor save). I believe durability is the factor that needs fixed with the Leman Russ. The T10, extra wounds, and 1+ armor save will help it a lot against massed small arms fire. This would probably also need to coincide with a small increase to the strength of some anti-tank weapons. For example, T'au railguns could go to S12 and melta could be S12 at half range perhaps (melta is sort of a mess right now though). If you really wanted to you could even increase anti-tank AP to -5 to get the same AP effects with it while the 1+ save still helps against small arms a bit.
Needless to say, I feel like there will need to be changes across more than just the Imperial Guard book to get the Leman Russ to where it should be.
Important note-as currently written, by RAW a 1+ never fails except on a natural 1. This is because you can't modify a result below 1, so if you roll a 2 through 6, no matter how much the AP mod is, it can't go below a 1.
Obviously, if we're talking about rejiggering every vehicle in the game, making 1+, 0+, and so on saves actually work isn't a huge deal. But it should be noted, at least.
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2021/01/26 03:26:58
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
Gadzilla666 wrote: ...I'm betting that the Vanquisher will go to: Heavy 1, S16, AP-4, D9. Exactly like the Macharius Vanquisher, but half the shots, because it has half the number of barrels...
Surely not, it'll be Heavy 2 and still get Grinding Advance. They can't possibly consider making a FW unit in any way cost-effective. (I read the Fellblade profile this morning, it's got twice the barrels of a Baneblade and only 2/3rds the shots.)
Twice the barrels, but not the same gun. That's the HE profile, which is an alternate fire option for anti-personel. For anti-armour it has the AE profile, which is: Heavy 2, S14, AP-4, D6. Add that to the 8 lascannons, demolisher cannon, and twin heavy bolter, and it will out damage a two sponson Baneblade by about 4 wounds against T8 3+ at 21.573 total wounds vs the Baneblade's 17.43 total. Considering the Fellblade's added durability from its 2+ save vs the Baneblade's 3+ and the availability of the Smokescreen strategem I'd say it's worth the extra 50 PPM.
But this thread is about Leman Russes, you want to talk fw, I'm game, but this isn't the place. Feel free to start a thread, and I'll join in.
2021/01/26 06:35:31
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
alextroy wrote:Interesting, but a bit radical for my taste. I think enough changes can be made without going this far. Basic ideas from my brainstorm:
Leave the base Leman Russ unit as it is except:
Grinding Advance: This unit cannot Advance and ignores the movement modifier for Difficult Ground.
Main Battle TankThis model has a +1 Save Modifier against attacks with Damage Characteristic of 1 or 2.
[list]Gain Core Keyword.
Weapon Updates:
[/list]Battle Cannon: Damage is 3 rather than D3.
Eradicator Nova Cannon is Damage 2 rather than D3
Executioner Plasma Cannon is Heavy 3D3
Vanquisher Battle Cannon is Damage D3+3 and it's Ability is "When targeting Monstrous Creatures or Vehicle this weapon is Heavy 2 and may reroll To-Hit and To-Wound roles.
The Tank Commander get the same updates as the Russ, but Tank Orders are changed:
Tank Orders: This model can issue one order each turn that affect up to two friendly <Regiment> Leman Russ at the start of the Shooting Phase. Pick one order form the Tank Order list and issue that order to two Leman Russ models within 9" of this model. Each Leman Russ can only be the target of one Tank Order per turn.
Full Throttle!: Instead of shooting this phase, the ordered model may immediately move as if it were the Movement Phase. It cannot declare a charge this turn.
On My Target!: The ordered model is +1 on Hit rolls against the target of the Tank Commander's Turret weapon until the end of the phase.
Defensive Fire!: The ordered model is +1 to Hit with non-Turret weapons against targets within 12". If firing a Heavy Flamer, it may reroll the number of shots.
The Vanquisher gun would still need a lot of work, particularly with the Battle Cannon going to damage 3. 3+1d3 is not comparable to 2d6*3; even with an AP and S improvement for the Vanquisher.
IMO, I think I needs to at least be equivalent to a Multimelta, preferably slightly better sign multimeltas are what it can take for secondary weapons; which is how I got 2d6+6 for 1 shot.
what is 3d6b1 supposed to be then? Heavy 3? I can't seen many guard players being pro that they've got used to an avarage of 4 shots twice.
Heavy d6?
Or Heavy 3d6?
Pretty sure it means roll 3d6 toss the lowest. Like the old melta half range damage rule. I'm sure Inquisitor Lord Katherine or JNAPRODUCTIONS will correct me if I'm wrong.
Edit: And JNA did.
Yeah, though I actually meant 3d6d1. I messed that up. 3d6b1 might as well just read "6".
Ice_can wrote:
All I can say is WOW are you in for a point's increase and then some.
you've just described a 150 point weapon profile right there thats 1.5 RFBC FFS.
Heck bolting that onto a chimera results in a 220 point model before you even consider paying for the T8 vrs T7 and the +2W and that you're adding a 2+ save.
Adding that level of firepower to a 160 point model with 2+ save -1 damage and you'll break the game.
First of all, why does it matter what a knight RFBC is; because the Leman Russ is already using the same thing as a RFBC and is decidedly absolutely terrible! That's literally why we're having this thread. When trying to brainstorm ideas for improving a bad unit, you want to make the unit good, so compare it to known good units, not "oh, this would be better than terrible unit X".
Second of all, on the numbers, Heavy 3d6d1, R72", S8, AP2, D3 on a BS3+ platform would give an average of 2.6 dead marines or 8 wounds to T7 vehicles. This would be looking at essentially the equivalent to a tank commander without re-rolls of 1 to hit, which is like okay but not great. Right now, the best tank commander you can get brings you 11.3 damage to T7 vehicles in a 195 points platform, and it isn't anything close to meta defining or brokenly good; so I think looking at 160-170 points for 8 wounds to vehicles or 2.6 dead marines is a pretty fair price. 8 wounds to vehicles seems a little higher than I want, and 2.6 dead marines is lower than I'd really want to see, relative to where it stood in the past, but I don't really want to drop it back to 2 damage with more shots, because then it's approaching automatic weapons range.
3d6d1 essentially bakes Catachan into the profile more seamlessly, and incorporates the fire bonus grinding advance presently gives so that I can do away with firing twice. With grinding advance now giving +1 BS for driving slow, this turns regular tanks into discount tank commanders. I would estimate that it should be around 160-170 out the gate before upgrades.
Alternatively, you can look at it as a Full Payload Manticore with +1T, +1Sv, and DR in exchange for losing IF and going to S8 from S10. Either way, I would estimate it around 170 points.
Anyway, my proposal was just kind of brainstorming a response to somebody's "how would you fix it" question.
The initial proposal of the thread was "how do we change the IG paradigm of using only Tank Commanders and no regular tanks?" It's not because the TC is too good; it's because the regular Leman Russ is hilariously bad.
As I mentioned before, a Leman Russ is offensively and defensively worse than a Vindicator [much worse offensively], and actually also much worse than a 130 point Devil Dog or a Manticore. And at 160 points, it's 30 points more expensive than the Vindi or Devil Dog. That's why there are no Leman Russes, because they're astoundingly bad.
Tank Commanders, for their part, aren't actually that great either; but in the codex, the only thing they're actually competing with is the Full Payload Manticore.
So, if we want to make a list look like a single tank commander leading a few squadrons of russes, we need to do three things:
Make Leman Russ sufficiently good to want to bring multiple of them
Make Tank Commanders not strictly better Leman Russes
Make Tank Commander orders more effective on the regular units than themselves.
I have attempted to do 1 by effectively porting the most desirable parts of the TC profile to the regular Leman Russ, increasing survivability slightly, and dropping the icing on the cake. This, coupled with a cost reduction, would be decent and fieldable in a vacuum, and competitive with Manticores and rival options.
I have attempted to do 2 by removing their ability to self-order, and making them not have an improvement over regular russes.
I have attempted to do 3 by making the squadrons not split up, so even if it weren't not allowed, you still wouldn't want to give yourself the order over giving it to a line squadron.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/01/26 06:51:15
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2021/01/26 08:08:12
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
1Just get rid of grinding advance.
price a battle cannon / triple heavy flamer bs4+ tank at about 120
price a battle cannon / triple heavy flamer tank commander at abotu 150.
Done.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/26 08:09:06
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2021/01/26 08:25:27
Subject: How to fix tank commanders and leman russes
i fail to see what a nerf to the meh BC would accomplish.
As someone that owns a defieler i can tell you right now, that the premium you pay for the privilege of a BC isn't very fun, and Daemon engines have been buffed countless times WHILEST having the advantage of actual synergy and invul over the Leman russ and you'd still not field a defieler in any semi comp meta if you didn't want to lower your power
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