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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

But would most LoWs be balanced without the 3CP surcharge? If they are, then they are effectively overpriced. If not, then adding a LoW slot to Battalions without increasing their price would make them unbalanced.

when some heavy support choices offer more damage output than LoWs, i'd say its safe to assume that yes, LoWs would be balanced.

Worse case scenario, if some end up being overbearing without the 3cp tax and the loss of subfaction bonuses, just raise their pts cost.

A Wraithknight in a batallion would still be worse than just taking two Falcons/Fire prisms.
A Spartan in a batallion would still be worse than just taking two quadlas predators. (But it would actually be a viable transport then)
Magnus and Mortarion being shifted to be directly in a battalion would change absolutely nothing from what they are right now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I'm glad that Primarch Bros isn't really a thing any more though I'm sure someone will find a way to force it when Magnus gets his redo.

Uh, you better not look at TJ Lanigan's list for the LV NOpen. It's horrific. But, it has probably the only one model that could possibly justify its price in an aux: Mortarion.

People love to complain about Imperium soup, but Chaos soup has so much keyword jank and ridiculous psychic that it never seems to go away.

I digress, though.

Quasistellar wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I'm glad that Primarch Bros isn't really a thing any more though I'm sure someone will find a way to force it when Magnus gets his redo.

Uh, you better not look at TJ Lanigan's list for the LV NOpen. It's horrific. But, it has probably the only one model that could possibly justify its price in an aux: Mortarion.

People love to complain about Imperium soup, but Chaos soup has so much keyword jank and ridiculous psychic that it never seems to go away.

I digress, though.

Of course it would be TJ. Gahd damnit. I guess Warp Timing Morty is worthwhile even if he loses the -1T aura.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:[Eh. They're really badly hard-countered by any melee unit with multi-damage attacks, especially on the shrunken tables today, and they're exactly in the profile bracket that's badly screwed by D2 HBs/+2D melta. I'm not seeing it.

Thing is they have the legs for days to choose the time and place of engagement. Anything scary to them should be popped by big bois. They still need more to work, but they're pretty decent...

The time of the engagement is "as soon as possible", if you don't push the objectives immediately you're going to lose due to scoring/game length. The place of the engagement is "the middle of the table", that's where all the objectives are. Anything scary to them includes "any thunderhammer sergeant", so if you expect the big guys to wipe the enemy army to keep the Armigers alive, sure, but it's trivial to have the hitting power to crack an Armiger in melee in most armies.

Roll back to end-of-game scoring, six turns standard, and a 6x4 table the Armiger's legs mean something, but in the 9e missions they mean very little.

 Cybtroll wrote:
I think that the reason why the Battalion doesn't in include a LoW is to avoid Mortarion, Guilliman and other similar LoW.

So, as usual, GW rules destroy themselves.

Wait, what? The Supreme Command Detach is both free, and gives you X CP where X equals your other Det Cost I.e. you can add those three to a Batallion or a Brigade without losing CP.

Greater Brass Scorpion in a pure khorne army could be worth it (not much to do beyond relics and terminator upgrade unless you start allying with daemons) and it's priced semi-reasonably in points (not enough data for me to comment). In 2k pts you could get a GBS, DP, Kharn, 3xKB units with transports and still have change for more stuff and that's only spending the 3CP for the GBS which adds some needed anti-tank and firepower.

In CSM and Imperium armies with Abaddon/Marneus who give extra CP, they could justify the LOW CP cost.

It kind of comes down to what you mean as worth it? Do you mean competitive? I dunno. Fun? Then it's worth it if you enjoy it, entirely subjective. I've used a GBS in a 1250pt game and had a right laugh; it was a memorable game.

Semper wrote:


In CSM and Imperium armies with Abaddon/Marneus who give extra CP, they could justify the LOW CP cost.

It kind of comes down to what you mean as worth it? Do you mean competitive? I dunno. Fun? Then it's worth it if you enjoy it, entirely subjective. I've used a GBS in a 1250pt game and had a right laugh; it was a memorable game.

Never mind, no you can’t. .

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:[Eh. They're really badly hard-countered by any melee unit with multi-damage attacks, especially on the shrunken tables today, and they're exactly in the profile bracket that's badly screwed by D2 HBs/+2D melta. I'm not seeing it.

Thing is they have the legs for days to choose the time and place of engagement. Anything scary to them should be popped by big bois. They still need more to work, but they're pretty decent...

The time of the engagement is "as soon as possible", if you don't push the objectives immediately you're going to lose due to scoring/game length. The place of the engagement is "the middle of the table", that's where all the objectives are. Anything scary to them includes "any thunderhammer sergeant", so if you expect the big guys to wipe the enemy army to keep the Armigers alive, sure, but it's trivial to have the hitting power to crack an Armiger in melee in most armies.

Roll back to end-of-game scoring, six turns standard, and a 6x4 table the Armiger's legs mean something, but in the 9e missions they mean very little.

Fair points. The goal would be to clear enough of what is guarding the TH to snipe him out with the next layer. Without rerolls TH got a bit less scary for big knights. Or you could push them all together - one slams into the front and the others spring past the front and split up.

410 for Desecrator, 415 for Rampager, 3x Melta dogs (420), 2x LL moirax (310), 1x Melta & 2x AC dogs (430) - 1955

All that said they still need some sort of obsec to be able to compete.

I just looked at TJs list for LVN open, and I swear I thought there was a global 1 primarch per list rule for ITC? Or is that just you cannot have more than 1 of the same model? It seems rediculous that you can field two literal primarchs. I don't expect that to remain a potential choice if they start seeing it wrecking house. With Mortarian the way he is, him with literally any other LOW is ugly to face. Maybe we are on the verge of seeing a swing BACK to non-Imperial armies?

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

But would most LoWs be balanced without the 3CP surcharge? If they are, then they are effectively overpriced. If not, then adding a LoW slot to Battalions without increasing their price would make them unbalanced.

when some heavy support choices offer more damage output than LoWs, i'd say its safe to assume that yes, LoWs would be balanced.

Worse case scenario, if some end up being overbearing without the 3cp tax and the loss of subfaction bonuses, just raise their pts cost.

A Wraithknight in a batallion would still be worse than just taking two Falcons/Fire prisms.
A Spartan in a batallion would still be worse than just taking two quadlas predators. (But it would actually be a viable transport then)
Magnus and Mortarion being shifted to be directly in a battalion would change absolutely nothing from what they are right now.

Which is what I'm thinking: The 3CP surcharge plus the price in points is too high a price for most LoWs. It seems gw has priced the SHAD as if everyone is is using it to bring a Knight, with its codex + PA worth of strategems and relics. Thus the 3CP tax and lack of faction traits. But that hits all of the non-knight LoWs harder. Maybe we'll see a change of direction once everyone has a mono bonus, and bringing a knight instead of a LoW from your own faction has more of a penalty than 3CP.

Daedalus81 wrote:You have to build around that drop in CP. If you're planning to VotLW and Cac something every turn it won't work out well. In experimenting with Necrons I usually wind up with 7CP to start and I don't have any LoW, but then I don't plan on using it all that much.

Yes, you have to plan on having less CP. That's what I have to do for all my lists now, LoW or not. You get plenty of it now, so it isn't too bad, but is it balanced?

Nice list. I'd swap out all the daemonic/mutated stuff for something not daemonic/mutated, but that's just my hangup. But since you're already 4CP in the hole for the Fellblade (don't forget about Martial Legacy), I'd go ahead and burn one more and trade those two Hellbrutes for a Leviathan. Five points less for a double Grav Flux Bombard Leviathan with Volkites and three HK missiles gets you over twice the firepower and MASSIVELY more durability. Or swap one GVB for a melee weapon and you have the same shooting (minus the ability to split fire the big guns) as the Hellbrutes, with a nasty threat in cc. That would really make your opponent think about which way to point their AT. Whichever they choose, pop Smokescreen, they'll have a hard time bracketing, much less killing both. I'd trade one of the Lords for a Jump Sorcerer as well, partially just because I think CSM players need to get used to only getting one Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince (it's going to eventually happen), but mostly so you can make up for the loss of CP with some psychic shenanigans.

cody.d. wrote:
I dunno, i'm growing increasingly fond of a trio of Killtanks for Orks.

I am trying a trio of the cheap 30 shots ones tomorrow as bad moons. Two 4++ bad moon bosses on bikes will near them, shouting « see ma shiny Wagon dhere wid all da dakka ? ». They can carry shoot twice TBs (one of mine will) too as bad moons.
You also need a waagh banner to make the kill tanks hit on 3s in melee.

Second try only (first was as deathskulls), still don’t honestly know if they are worth their price compared to our buggies (of which you can take a lot for 825 points, and which don’t set you back 6 cp...

 Jidmah wrote:
The rules suggest using 40mm round markers, and there is a huge number of markers sold by GW.

I've seen as many flat objectives as I've seen flags, piles of ammo crates, the official GW stuff, wounded soldiers and anything that can be found in a bits box.

The other night we used pocket change. Two dimes & quarter. Worked just fine.

ccs wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The rules suggest using 40mm round markers, and there is a huge number of markers sold by GW.

I've seen as many flat objectives as I've seen flags, piles of ammo crates, the official GW stuff, wounded soldiers and anything that can be found in a bits box.

The other night we used pocket change. Two dimes & quarter. Worked just fine.

Never ran into the need

Back in 5th there was this green battle marker set which I bought. I still have the tiny flags from that set in my dice box, so I always have objectives at hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I just looked at TJs list for LVN open, and I swear I thought there was a global 1 primarch per list rule for ITC? Or is that just you cannot have more than 1 of the same model? It seems rediculous that you can field two literal primarchs. I don't expect that to remain a potential choice if they start seeing it wrecking house. With Mortarian the way he is, him with literally any other LOW is ugly to face. Maybe we are on the verge of seeing a swing BACK to non-Imperial armies?

I'm fairly sure that this problem will solve it self once the TS codex hits. Mortarion absolutely has to be your warlord because otherwise he loses his 5+++, re-rolls to wound and the 3" anti-rerolls-aura. If Magnus also gets a similar pile of warlord traits, bringing both would leave you with one being rather lackluster.

I for one support this hobbling of Superheavies, I am just sad they kept Primarchs as something viable in 40k.

LOW should be kept in Apocalypse.

BCB I wrote a whole paragraph before I realized what you wrote and agreed with you. There is ZERO reason a Primarch should be on a battlefield if that battle is less than 50k combined points. That includes Chapter Masters as well. Dante and the Sanguinor would not be wasted brushing off 50 or so zerglings and some higher forms, etc.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
BCB I wrote a whole paragraph before I realized what you wrote and agreed with you. There is ZERO reason a Primarch should be on a battlefield if that battle is less than 50k combined points. That includes Chapter Masters as well. Dante and the Sanguinor would not be wasted brushing off 50 or so zerglings and some higher forms, etc.

Or maybe what's going on our table is just a zoomed in snapshot of a few particular moments in some huge battle where some LoW type is fighting.

Ares Gunship can still wreck people.

Necron Tesseract Vault is probably also worth it.

People kinda skip it, because the rest of the Codex has just so many good options, but it's devastating.

Pretty annoyed by it to be honest. My Guard army currently has 5 Superheavies, and the CP changes have made it pretty useless to take them. It wasn't enough for FW to nerf the Stormhammer and Valdor, they then had to make me use 3CP just for the privilege of taking it, and another one if I want the regimental benefits.

I don't get why they couldn't put a LoW choice in the Battalion detachment. Just one would have been good.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
BCB I wrote a whole paragraph before I realized what you wrote and agreed with you. There is ZERO reason a Primarch should be on a battlefield if that battle is less than 50k combined points. That includes Chapter Masters as well. Dante and the Sanguinor would not be wasted brushing off 50 or so zerglings and some higher forms, etc.

Yes, because every battle always only ever goes as planned and Primarchs are totally rational and flawless beings which only ever go to battle when it's most efficient

There are plenty of fluff pieces where primarchs go into battle with no more than a single squad, and many, many times for completely stupid and/or selfish reasons.
In many of conflicts in the books there aren't even any tanks, let alone other LoW involved.

Do you think Mortarion personally attacked agri-worlds in the Ultramar sector because their PDF could throw 50k points at him?

But sure, keep justifying your irrational hatred of large models with fluff that doesn't exist.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Ares Gunship can still wreck people.

Necron Tesseract Vault is probably also worth it.

People kinda skip it, because the rest of the Codex has just so many good options, but it's devastating.

The Ares is a FLYER, not a LoW, and therefore not subject to the 3CP surcharge imposed by only being available by taking it in a SHAD.

I've never seen a Tesseract Vault actually used. It looks like it's capable of pumping out a LOT of MWs, and 30 T7, 2+, 4++ wounds looks pretty durable. Do any Necron players here use a Tesseract Vault? If so would you consider it worth its price plus the 3CP tax?

 Jidmah wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
BCB I wrote a whole paragraph before I realized what you wrote and agreed with you. There is ZERO reason a Primarch should be on a battlefield if that battle is less than 50k combined points. That includes Chapter Masters as well. Dante and the Sanguinor would not be wasted brushing off 50 or so zerglings and some higher forms, etc.

Yes, because every battle always only ever goes as planned and Primarchs are totally rational and flawless beings which only ever go to battle when it's most efficient

There are plenty of fluff pieces where primarchs go into battle with no more than a single squad, and many, many times for completely stupid and/or selfish reasons.
In many of conflicts in the books there aren't even any tanks, let alone other LoW involved.

Do you think Mortarion personally attacked agri-worlds in the Ultramar sector because their PDF could throw 50k points at him?

But sure, keep justifying your irrational hatred of large models with fluff that doesn't exist.

OMG does every post you make have to be an assumption of "So what you are saying is...." with about 50 pounds of snark on it? Lay off the telling of everyone what they should or shouldn't do. If you don't like a post or an idea, you don't have to engage. You can just walk away.

I and many others have long said that LoW units are either game breaking, or at the very least make the game unfun. What good is my skill as a player if Timmy Two Weeks of playing 40k can just wipe it off the table in 3 turns with his Pay to Win models?

Everyone rightly hated how the Castellan shifted the game, and GW nerfed it, everyone rightly hated the Tau Commander spam, and GW created the Ro3 and everyone is once again pointing out the ridiculousness of Primarch Spam. Why? Because its Silly and shifts the meta from a game of plastic soldiers to a game of IGOIWIN.

Expect it to be nerfed to one Primarch per list by the end of the year.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Ares Gunship can still wreck people.

Necron Tesseract Vault is probably also worth it.

People kinda skip it, because the rest of the Codex has just so many good options, but it's devastating.

The Ares is a FLYER, not a LoW, and therefore not subject to the 3CP surcharge imposed by only being available by taking it in a SHAD.

I've never seen a Tesseract Vault actually used. It looks like it's capable of pumping out a LOT of MWs, and 30 T7, 2+, 4++ wounds looks pretty durable. Do any Necron players here use a Tesseract Vault? If so would you consider it worth its price plus the 3CP tax?

The main issue that prevented it's use was it's size, which made it non-deployable in some cases. Now that you can hang the rest of the model off the table with just it's base fully on, that may help it see some use. It's honestly a pretty mean piece of tech. Time's arrow becomes really powerful at eliminating a lot of the support characters with the +1 and the mortal wounds it spits out are great. C'tan powers are also not called out in the rules when a model can't move/shoot during the deployment during the size, so you can actually get a lot out.

The other reason you're not really seeing it taken, is a lot of people (Like myself) are taking the Silent King. Can't really have 1k of your 2k list tied up in 2 giant models.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What good is my skill as a player if Timmy Two Weeks of playing 40k can just wipe it off the table in 3 turns with his Pay to Win models?

Well, it tells us that your skill level is nowhere near as high as your ego thinks it is, that's for sure.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Expect it to be nerfed to one Primarch per list by the end of the year.

Interesting prediction - we may have to revisit this around Christmas-time. As it happens, I don't think this will happen - though, as noted, if Thousand Sons are revisited and Maggie is tweaked like Morty has been, there'll be soft pressure from the rules not to run them together anyway.

 Sasori wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Ares Gunship can still wreck people.

Necron Tesseract Vault is probably also worth it.

People kinda skip it, because the rest of the Codex has just so many good options, but it's devastating.

The Ares is a FLYER, not a LoW, and therefore not subject to the 3CP surcharge imposed by only being available by taking it in a SHAD.

I've never seen a Tesseract Vault actually used. It looks like it's capable of pumping out a LOT of MWs, and 30 T7, 2+, 4++ wounds looks pretty durable. Do any Necron players here use a Tesseract Vault? If so would you consider it worth its price plus the 3CP tax?

The main issue that prevented it's use was it's size, which made it non-deployable in some cases. Now that you can hang the rest of the model off the table with just it's base fully on, that may help it see some use. It's honestly a pretty mean piece of tech. Time's arrow becomes really powerful at eliminating a lot of the support characters with the +1 and the mortal wounds it spits out are great. C'tan powers are also not called out in the rules when a model can't move/shoot during the deployment during the size, so you can actually get a lot out.

The other reason you're not really seeing it taken, is a lot of people (Like myself) are taking the Silent King. Can't really have 1k of your 2k list tied up in 2 giant models.

Yea I might be tempted to use one, but it is really short ranged. It can certainly devastate on area of a battlefield, but the distance is can reach is know since it can't run and cast.

At 24" at its best it can do D3+3 and D3 MW to a unit. Everything else is 18" or less. So, 500 points for like 4 smites? Time's Arrow is great, but people will stay clear if they can. If it degrades then it gets a little harder to use effectively.

I'd still give it a go though.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:


I've never seen a Tesseract Vault actually used. It looks like it's capable of pumping out a LOT of MWs, and 30 T7, 2+, 4++ wounds looks pretty durable. Do any Necron players here use a Tesseract Vault? If so would you consider it worth its price plus the 3CP tax?

Well, I have one on order at my local shop.
Does that count?

I fully intend on putting it on the table asap. I dont look at its cp cost as worth it/not worth it, just...part of it.
I am sure that I will have fun games involving it.

I do find it amusing that the Vault is cheaper to buy than a new Monolith. Is the C'Tan from it still usable on its own if you use the kit for an Obelisk?

 Dysartes wrote:
I do find it amusing that the Vault is cheaper to buy than a new Monolith. Is the C'Tan from it still usable on its own if you use the kit for an Obelisk?

Yea there is an transcendent c'tan datasheet. Similar to the other c'tan except one picked or two random abilities. 80 points cheaper than the other c'tan.

ccs wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:


I've never seen a Tesseract Vault actually used. It looks like it's capable of pumping out a LOT of MWs, and 30 T7, 2+, 4++ wounds looks pretty durable. Do any Necron players here use a Tesseract Vault? If so would you consider it worth its price plus the 3CP tax?

Well, I have one on order at my local shop.
Does that count?

I fully intend on putting it on the table asap. I dont look at its cp cost as worth it/not worth it, just...part of it.
I am sure that I will have fun games involving it.

I hope you do. I personally find my own LoWs quite fun with their new rules. Though I do find the 3CP tax a bit excessive, especially since they're really 4CP. But that is part of it.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Spoiler:

 Jidmah wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
BCB I wrote a whole paragraph before I realized what you wrote and agreed with you. There is ZERO reason a Primarch should be on a battlefield if that battle is less than 50k combined points. That includes Chapter Masters as well. Dante and the Sanguinor would not be wasted brushing off 50 or so zerglings and some higher forms, etc.

Yes, because every battle always only ever goes as planned and Primarchs are totally rational and flawless beings which only ever go to battle when it's most efficient

There are plenty of fluff pieces where primarchs go into battle with no more than a single squad, and many, many times for completely stupid and/or selfish reasons.
In many of conflicts in the books there aren't even any tanks, let alone other LoW involved.

Do you think Mortarion personally attacked agri-worlds in the Ultramar sector because their PDF could throw 50k points at him?

But sure, keep justifying your irrational hatred of large models with fluff that doesn't exist.

OMG does every post you make have to be an assumption of "So what you are saying is...." with about 50 pounds of snark on it? Lay off the telling of everyone what they should or shouldn't do. If you don't like a post or an idea, you don't have to engage. You can just walk away.

I and many others have long said that LoW units are either game breaking, or at the very least make the game unfun. What good is my skill as a player if Timmy Two Weeks of playing 40k can just wipe it off the table in 3 turns with his Pay to Win models?

Everyone rightly hated how the Castellan shifted the game, and GW nerfed it, everyone rightly hated the Tau Commander spam, and GW created the Ro3 and everyone is once again pointing out the ridiculousness of Primarch Spam. Why? Because its Silly and shifts the meta from a game of plastic soldiers to a game of IGOIWIN.

Expect it to be nerfed to one Primarch per list by the end of the year.

I don't think anyone considers non-primarch LoWs, which is what this thread is about, to be "IGOIWIN" units. Can you actually name one that is currently "Pay To Win"? If you don't personally enjoy playing with/against them, that's your own subjective opinion, but many others do enjoy using them.

I would point out that this opinion seems rather odd for someone who actually has a thread in the Tactics forum about "Making Baneblades Viable" as well.

If someone wipes you off the table within three turns despite bringing a LoW, "your skill as a player" is clearly far below that of a new player with two week of game experience.

The primarch issue will sort itself out once all relevant codices have seen an update.

 Dysartes wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What good is my skill as a player if Timmy Two Weeks of playing 40k can just wipe it off the table in 3 turns with his Pay to Win models?

Well, it tells us that your skill level is nowhere near as high as your ego thinks it is, that's for sure.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Expect it to be nerfed to one Primarch per list by the end of the year.

Interesting prediction - we may have to revisit this around Christmas-time. As it happens, I don't think this will happen - though, as noted, if Thousand Sons are revisited and Maggie is tweaked like Morty has been, there'll be soft pressure from the rules not to run them together anyway.

Hey, never claimed to be a good player. Despite all my other hyperbolic claims, I am a very crappy 40k player, and I am totally ok with that. (Not hyperbole, never won a game in 8th. and only one so far in 9th, never been to a major as a player, or even in a tournament. I just like making wierd noises as I move tiny golden men across a table.)

As to Re-visiting, how about we put a pin in whenever the 1kSons codex drops (Can't think of any other daemon primarchs that you can soup with). That way you might not have to wait as long to throw this back in my face, if that is what brings you pleasure.