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Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Fugazi wrote:


Hindsight really helps. The world moved slower back then. For me, if I got one thing at xmas, then if I wanted the second follow-up thing, it would have to wait until next xmas.

Rogue Trader moved so fast. There were so many updates, including stuff we didn't know about until some of those old White Dwarfs appeared on the internet. I could never afford keeping up. I had to rely on friends picking up White Dwarf, and still, they didn't grab them all.

By the time 2nd edition came out, it felt like Rogue Trader had already gone through multiple evolutions, but it was hard to see it at the time. It just felt ...fast and rapidly changing. From the limited perspective of a kid, the changes almost felt arbitrary...like, what are the rules?

The very term "2nd edition" is something of an anachronism. We call it that now, because we lump all of Rogue Trader into a single printing, but if you go back to the contemporary writing, there were two editions of Rogue Trader, and 2nd was actually considered 3rd.

Maybe you & yours called individual printings "editions", but that's not how everyone else (including GW) does it. Not then, not now.

I recall RT being in flux, but no lines being drawn. But then we were not as knit together as a community back then. As we were playing it more as a RPG, we just shrugged and kept on playing with what we had. My group didn’t have anyone collecting WD. We heard second hand about marines getting another point of toughness, and a change to vehicles. But never saw the sources.

ccs wrote:


Maybe you & yours called individual printings "editions", but that's not how everyone else (including GW) does it. Not then, not now.

The Battle Bible (1998) referred to 40k as being on its fourth edition, so obviously someone was using that terminology.

That aligns with the experience at the time. The Compendium was a big revision, which was regarded as a second edition of Rogue Trader, a unified rule book at last (which I didn't buy). When the boxed set came out, the Rogue Trader moniker was dropped and the game played differently, with many of the old factions quietly disappeared.

I still have the box and the rules and there is nothing in it referencing earlier editions or rules. It's just Warhammer 40,000. Players at the time differentiated it from Rogue Trader, and no one said they played "first edition," they instead said "Rogue Trader."

When the 3rd edition came out, there was now a need to differentiate between that 40k and the one immediately before it, because they were both "not Rogue Trader." Rogue Trader retroactively became a unified first edition, the first boxed set second, and the current one was third.

I've been collecting materials from the 2nd era, but it is far from complete. If someone has a WD proclaiming a second edition, I'd love to see it.

Because 3rd ed. was such a radical change, there were people who preferred the older rules, and that's where the "2nd ed." moniker emerged. No one used it while it was current, though. It was just 40k.

By way of contrast WHFB was well into editions, so when I got into it, I knew immediately that I was playing 5th edition, in part because people argued 4th was better (or was it 3rd?). There were no such modifiers yet for 40k because they weren't needed.

The emergence of forums (like Portent) locked in this terminology, and I supposed it's been around for so long, we think it was always that way. I'm not so sure.

That’s my copies of Ravening Hordes (2nd Ed) and Warhammer Armies (3rd Ed) arrived.

Now my historical GW knowledge and reading has been predominantly 40K. So I greatly enjoyed when flicking through Warhammer Armies that at that point? WHFB wasn’t quite its own thing yet.

The roots are of course there, and it’d already shed its Tolkien origins. Instead, it’s more a clear mash up of Fantasy and Historical Tropes.

I am aware that what would become the WHFB 4th Ed Empire book was worked on here, and released in WD as an ongoing project. And of course the Semolina nightmare where an ape tries to eat me seminal Realms of Chaos books would debut in that edition.

Overall, whilst there’s a lot here for me to digest, I’m looking forward to following the same creative curve for WHFB that I have 40K.

Think I mentioned before, but in packing for my house move, I found I still had my old Mordheim Rulebook, and a folder stuffed full of print outs of articles.

Today? I added “Empire in Flames” to that collection. A book I never bought at the time.

the worst part about the edition churn is the erasure of warhammer history.

Trying to find first edition HH pdfs is its own special kind of hell, or trying to find which black book has what unit like secutarii

Well. Turns out? I don’t a complete set of Rogue Trader books.

Thanks to Jordan Sorcery’s YouTube quiz video? I’m missing Citi-Block. An expansion for Judge Dredd and Rogue Trader.

TO EBAY!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
£175. Oof.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well. Turns out? I don’t a complete set of Rogue Trader books.

Thanks to Jordan Sorcery’s YouTube quiz video? I’m missing Citi-Block. An expansion for Judge Dredd and Rogue Trader.

TO EBAY!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
£175. Oof.

Sir. I salute you.

Not at that price. Not this quarter. Or next. Got a trip to Japan to start paying off.

But it’s on the radar, and a complete set I will have, eventually.

£175?? I have Citi-Block (sorry, not for sale) that I bought for the Judge Dredd RPG back in the late 80s. Completely forgot it was also for 40K.

FYI, it's 6 pages of rules for 40K played on gridded floorplans, of which two pages are for generating hive world gangs.

The floorplans and 2D card scenery is not too bad, although younger me went a bit scissor happy it seems, but you'd definitely need to be a hardcore completist to want it - especially at that price!

Oh I want to be complete. But not £175 complete :(

They did say Rogue Trader rather than Rogue Trooper, right?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh I want to be complete. But not £175 complete :(

Is this the right one? 43 quid...
https://tinyurl.com/y3dv7s85

Yes it is! And now?

It’s mine….all mine! MIIIIIIIIIINE

Mwahahahahhahaah!

Haha. Still a lot for what it is, but it's a more reasonable price. Congrats on completing the set!

(Hopefully no one else goes "well... actually... there's also....")

Big old Judge Dredd/2000AD fan as well, so a little something for two collections

Same.

Reminds me I should dust off my old copy of GW's Block Mania game and give it another play. Great game, although lots of fiddly counters that used to end up all over the place

Interesting. Citi-Blok is the missing link between 40K and 2000 AD. No wonder its priced bonkers.

Does it give 40K stats to Judges? I wonder..

Time to have a digg to see if it exists in the [REDACTED]

The first time I saw a vehicle called a Land Raider it was in 2000AD.

Ahh, in the Cursed Earth mega-epic. Which was the first of its kind.

Also, and I’m guessing this is fairly common knowledge? But based on a Matchbox toy.

Regard.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134098354613?_ul=GB&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338365712&toolid=20006&customid=CjwKCAiAncvMBhBEEiwA9GU_fjtFJJi-RBDlUaGN1D1F4Ua3be3kFgOz7QOker7y_XwenU142-XXihoC02cQAvD_BwE%7C0AAAAADANKJn9k0OGLa51OkleMeeCuypds%7Cnull&gclid=CjwKCAiAncvMBhBEEiwA9GU_fjtFJJi-RBDlUaGN1D1F4Ua3be3kFgOz7QOker7y_XwenU142-XXihoC02cQAvD_BwE&gbraid=0AAAAADANKJn9k0OGLa51OkleMeeCuypds&loc_physical_ms=9207372&adtype=pla

All but impossible to find in complete, mint condition. I picked one up without knowing what it was at a Jumble Sale as a nipper. Only the rear half. No rockets for the turret, but still had its soft rubber tracks. Soft rubber tracks of the kind that perish easily, and worse? Were easily remove to be pinged at a sibling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’d love to do a proper deep dive into the origins of all things 40K. Because it’s much deeper than “them am rip off 2000AD”.

Clear influence of course, but also seeking to spoof and satirise the same things, with the same social, political and cultural influences.

Growing up in post 2nd World War and Posr-Empire decline Britain will do that you know.

Even where my work’s office is. It’s pretty much the Robocop Delta City, including being slapbang in the middle of one of the country’s, let alone London’s most socio-economically deprived regions, Tower Hamlets. A glass and steel middle finger to the have-nots.

So much so that when the Robocop remake was being hyped? I saw a video billboard advertising it on my walk to get the coach home. I had to genuinely pinch myself it was so surreal.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I’d love to do a proper deep dive into the origins of all things 40K. Because it’s much deeper than “them am rip off 2000AD”.

Clear influence of course, but also seeking to spoof and satirise the same things, with the same social, political and cultural influences.

The interesting thing about 40k is not that it is derivative, but how it is derivative. Lots of coded references in it, some pop culture, some religious.

Lionel Johnson, for example. Who dug him up? Did someone take a course on Anglo-Catholic 19th Century poets and think "This is a great back story for a Space Marine chapter!"

 tauist wrote:
Interesting. Citi-Blok is the missing link between 40K and 2000 AD. No wonder its priced bonkers.

Does it give 40K stats to Judges? I wonder..

Time to have a digg to see if it exists in the [REDACTED]

Sadly not. One set of paper and card floorplans and 2D cutout scenery, one rulebook that is half for Judge Dredd RPG, half for 40K.

The 40K rules start off with some fluff about an inquisitor finding the Citi-Block set. There are notes on mapping movement and ranges to a square grid, and a couple of pages for rolling up random hiveworld gangs. I remember now why I only used it for Judge Dredd :-D

Edit: no mention if the inquisitor found them on EmpireBay for 137,000 credits.

john_chandler wrote:


The 40K rules start off with some fluff about an inquisitor finding the Citi-Block set. There are notes on mapping movement and ranges to a square grid, and a couple of pages for rolling up random hiveworld gangs. I remember now why I only used it for Judge Dredd :-D

Edit: no mention if the inquisitor found them on EmpireBay for 137,000 credits.

Do the hiveworld gangs have any resemblance to the confrontation gangs?

Completionist Weirdo Is Completionist.

The Weirdo bit pre-exists.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I’d love to do a proper deep dive into the origins of all things 40K. Because it’s much deeper than “them am rip off 2000AD”.

Clear influence of course, but also seeking to spoof and satirise the same things, with the same social, political and cultural influences.

The interesting thing about 40k is not that it is derivative, but how it is derivative. Lots of coded references in it, some pop culture, some religious.

Lionel Johnson, for example. Who dug him up? Did someone take a course on Anglo-Catholic 19th Century poets and think "This is a great back story for a Space Marine chapter!"

Yeah, exactly. Mashing up Dune, Star Wars, 2000AD, the Holy Roman Empire and WW2 into a big couldron with a whole bunch of other sci fi, historical and literary influences is what makes 40K work. And the limitations placed on Priestly that they HAD to use fantasy figures as well turns out to be the secret ingredient that makes it a delicious soup.

I agree.

Sure, Medieval Worlds/Feudal Worlds and Feral Orks may be out of the limelight? But it’s their existence, and indeed Imperial Worlds being far from uniform in society, tech level etc is such a huge part of what makes 40K tick.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

john_chandler wrote:


The 40K rules start off with some fluff about an inquisitor finding the Citi-Block set. There are notes on mapping movement and ranges to a square grid, and a couple of pages for rolling up random hiveworld gangs. I remember now why I only used it for Judge Dredd :-D

Edit: no mention if the inquisitor found them on EmpireBay for 137,000 credits.

Do the hiveworld gangs have any resemblance to the confrontation gangs?

There's a similarity, think very simplified version of Confrontation's gang generation cut down to 2 pages. For Citi-Block, you roll for the leader, then for the gang size, then for each member you roll for weapon and armour. No gang types. That's basically it - you now have a group with the relevant human stats from 40K.

This has been a total blast from the past having to rummage through old White Dwarf issues. Citi-Block predates Confrontation by 3 or 4 years and I can see the evolution of RT -> Citi-Block's gang rules -> Confrontation -> Necromunda.

I gotta say, I've been playing some 5th edition games using the horus heresy army books and I've been having a blast.

Just had a 1000pt game where I played the 4th edition Ork Codex versus HH1 Iron warriors. It was a ton of fun!

I reascend my idea that 7th ed / HH 1e was the best edition after that

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I gotta say, I've been playing some 5th edition games using the horus heresy army books and I've been having a blast.

Just had a 1000pt game where I played the 4th edition Ork Codex versus HH1 Iron warriors. It was a ton of fun!

I reascend my idea that 7th ed / HH 1e was the best edition after that

IMHO 5th’s main issue was the codexes, not the core rules. While no edition was perfect, 5th had a good core at it’s heart.

My friends want to get some games of 4th ed 40K going, so it looks like my Inquisitor Warband compulsion might actually get used for something other than Dakka gallery posts.