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What are the ideal way to take out terminators with stormshields with coversave.

So essentially 3 wound models starting at 2+/4++. With +2 to save, or +1 in melee.

Of the topp of my head I am imagening overcharged plasma, powersword or meltaguns. But I do not know if they ome on cheap enough platforms that they are worth it. Likevice a psyker with smite deals 1 to 3 wounds on it does not seem worth it.

I would imagine som armies even lack good options for it. Thoughts?

Well Terminators with Stormshield normally lack shooting and if they can shoot it was with cost to melee weapons but those units can mix and match weaponry (Deathwing and Wolf Guard).

Now there is 3 options:

1) Shoot them with biggest guns or bucket load of guns. Even 1+ save will eventually fail.

2) Assault them with melee units that are loaded with AP weaponry (Vanguard, other terminators, Banshee etc).

3) Avoid or tie them with chaff unit.

Option 3) is not the best if there more then 2+ Terminator units.

But what are the good 'biggest guns' to shoot them with? A lascannon is AP3, meaning they stil save on 3+. And on a wound roll of 1 or 2 you do not even kill the terminator. Considering the cost of a lascannon it might not be the best gun for the jobb. (Even worse vs Deathwing as it would now only also wound on a 4+.)

Take devourer gaunts with the shoot twice stratagem. 7 points for a gaunt. BS4+ 3 shots (6 with stratagem) S4, Ap-.

10 Gaunts would on averadge do 1,2 wounds on 1 terminator with no stratagem. If we use the shoot twice stratagem on 20 gaunts we end up with 4,4 wounds for 140 points and 2 CP. Heck, lets go all in all 30 gaunts, shoot twice stratage. We are talking 7,2 damage, enough to kill 2 terminators. For 210 points and 2 CP. That does not sound point efficient.

But Lets run the math on banhees. 5 banshees, 75 points. 10 attacks, hitting on 3+. Wounding on 4+. Saving on 4+. = 1.65 damage. So if you have 10 bansees you kill one terminator. Banshees also do not look that great. Asuming you actually make it to battle. Now they get to fight back... vs T3 4+ save. That is not great.

I just want to identify what weapons are good vs them. I know some weapons should be good vs them.

Melta is pretty good. Or if you have an Ignore Cover stratagem like Necrons do, you can cause some serious pain with some Gauss Reapers. Similarly, Harlequins with 5 Fusion Pistols from a Starweaver can cause good damage, then fire and fade if needed. Most armies have something that can handle them well if you consider their high points cost per model.

Sarah Conner is pretty handy.

Other than that, if they’re largely immune to heavy weapons? Remember a 1 always fails, so douse them with small arms. Chip, chip, chip away at them.

Necrons wise? Gauss Blasters and Gauss Cannon have decent strength and respectable range, so you can pour it on quote early. And for each failed saved from a Gauss Cannon, there’s a chance of one being entirely dead.

Necron Warrior. 13 per pop. Gaus Reaper Assault 2. BS3+ S5 AP2 D1

Let us asume they have some way to get within range. They have nighsthroud teleport (I belive) but SM has Auspex Scan, but let us asume they get the full drop.

20 Warriors 260 points, full volley.= On average 2.78 points of damage. One dead terminator rounding up.

I do not know harlequins that well. But 5 troupes with fusion pistol. 19 points per model. Fusion pistol. Pistol 1, BS3+ S8 AP4 D6. Damage 2D6 discard the lowest if within 3.

= 1,4 hits that pass the save. So a good chance that one terminator dies, possible 2 depending on how it shakes out. For 95 points it sertanly is the best we have seen. Asuming they get within *check notes* 6". Probably it involves some form of transport or something, and then it gets more exspensive. But I do not know how harlequins work. I asume there is a trick to it.

What do you suggest for small arms fire or melta delivery? I did the math on smallarms fire with gaunts further up. It did not work very well.

Erm... How are you getting 2.78 wounds? I get 5.93 against Storm Shield Terminators.

40 shots
80/3 hits
160/9 wounds
160/27 failed saves

Sorry I forgot, since I always run my Warriors as Mephrit for the extra range and AP. They're still not too bad at adding damage mind you, just not the first option. Plus, those terminators will find it tough to budge those warriors anyways. With Harlequins, they can shoot while still embarked on their transporter, and it has a base move of 16". So yeah, it's possible. For other armies, if you're playing Tyranids, you can use an Exocrene and use the Stratagem to give its Plasma shots +1 Damage. So 12 shots, re-rolling 1s to hit with Plasma and flat 3 damage. Not terrible. If playing Imperial Guard, the good old fashioned Demolisher Leman Russ helps a ton here. I don't have my IG book at hand, but if I recall, they can fire twice if they don't move. Coupled with the blast rule and tank orders alone should do good work and kill a few.

I am just trying to get a lay of the land. As I was quite baffeled when I ran some numbers on them.

Necron Warrior. 13 per pop. Gaus Reaper Assault 2. BS3+ S5 AP2 D1

20 Warriors 260 points.,
40 Shots * 0,66 (BS3+) = 26,4
26.4 * 0,66 (S5 vs T4) = 17,424
17,424 * 0,16 (AP2 vs 2+ with 2 to the save. 1 From Storm Shield and 1 from cover) = 2,78784
full volley.= On average 2.78 points of damage. One dead terminator rounding up.

If they are out of cover or do not run runeshields it would be
17,424 * 0,33 (AP2 vs 2+ with 1 to the save.)= 5,74992
It would also be the same if you are witin the Mephrit senario.

What started this conundrum for me was my ork opponent who played vs my blob. 10 terminators, 6 with combi plasma and stormshields. 2 with cyclone missile launcher, chainfist. 1 with 2 lightning claws, leader with hammer and stormshield. They babysatt the midobjective with Bjorn who re-rolled plasma and a psyker who granted cover. It was a big zone of death of a combination of bufs and stratagems. (2+ to hit, re-rollig 1, ignoring modefiers to hit.)

Exochrine (170 points) with patoneic slime (2 CP, for +1 damage)
12 shots, BS3+ S7 AP3 D2, now up to D3 thanks to the slime.

12*0,66=7,92 BS3+
7,92*0,66=5,2272 S7
5,2272*0,33= 1.72( AP3)

So probably 2 dead terminators. Probably more if you are Kronos and use kronos psykick power. Also, range 36 means you can stay out of the range of those pesky combi plasma. Probably the best option so far.

One of the Protocols lets you Ignore Cover within half range. Really killer with Mephrit, since with MWBD on the big squad, you hit on 2's, wound on 3's. and with -3 AP and Ignore Cover you force the squad onto a 4+ save either way. There's also a stratagem that can give Ignores Cover, but pretty sure the Space Marine player would use their Stratagem that would make it so you can't wound their squad on better than a 4+ (though that might be restricted to only primaris squads I can't remember).

Darsath wrote:
One of the Protocols lets you Ignore Cover within half range. Really killer with Mephrit, since with MWBD on the big squad, you hit on 2's, wound on 3's. and with -3 AP and Ignore Cover you force the squad onto a 4+ save either way. There's also a stratagem that can give Ignores Cover, but pretty sure the Space Marine player would use their Stratagem that would make it so you can't wound their squad on better than a 4+ (though that might be restricted to only primaris squads I can't remember).

Transhuman is Primaris only, yes.

That one is only primaris yes. However, the dark angels have a way to get Transhuman on all their terminators. :-p

I do not know how, if any, they can mix their weapon loadouts like the SW terminators can. But I suspect they have full flexabilaty.

Also, don't forget they will almost certainly have the 6+ FNP aura from the chief apothecary, since he can also revive 1 model per turn and they're a good target.

I think High ROF Str4 Ap -2 D1 is the sweet spot IMO.
Throwing las cannong or sngle shot heavy weapons at termies seem to be a waste. Also MWs

Try and force lots of 3+ saves and whittle them down.

 Argive wrote:
I think High ROF Str4 Ap -2 D1 is the sweet spot IMO.
Throwing las cannong or sngle shot heavy weapons at termies seem to be a waste. Also MWs

Try and force lots of 3+ saves and whittle them down.

S5 is a bit better, excepting DA Terminators, since a 3+ to-wound is better than a 4+. Of course, cost also comes into play with that.

 Argive wrote:
I think High ROF Str4 Ap -2 D1 is the sweet spot IMO.
Throwing las cannong or sngle shot heavy weapons at termies seem to be a waste. Also MWs

Try and force lots of 3+ saves and whittle them down.

Yes except Ap -2 does nothing vs them if they have shields and terain cover. SW has a psykick power WC6 that gives cover saves. I do not know if DA has it, but they do have the apotecary that SW do not have.

So good AP3 weapons would be plasmashots? If you can get them cheap.

I run lambda lions and psykers a lot, and both of those are excellent anti-terminators. The lambda lions plasma is ap-4, their meltas are ap-5, so even starting at "ap 0" with a 2+ (and +1 on the die from stormshield and +1 from cover) the terminators are going to be pushed up to 4++ anyway. The line infantry of lambda lions is all 3ap, so even the humble hotshotlasguns are tagging them fully 100 to 200 percent as much as just about any other troop choice. I note that if you throw in your astropath to strip cover from them, and designate them as the object of "old grudges" even simple scions groups can throw out 37 shots of s3/-3/1 .. and reroll the 5+ wound roll to fish for hits. So you end up with each 90 point troop, assuming you got them into IDEAL position with orders helping, 37 shots .. 24 hits .. around 12 saves .. use astropath to remove cover .. around 2 dead terminators. PER 90 points of shooters.

Then, remember you can also pop a strat to give every single scion unit +1 to wound, as they fire, raising that to about 3 dead terminators per firing 90 point unit.

Also, remember that astropath threw malstrom for a point or so mortal wounds, and remember that your scions also bring a lot of plasma (or hotshotVOLLEY guns with better wounding) (or meltas) to bear.

Then remember the mechanicum strat can also give you all your six's as mortal woudns and you are fishing for those with an old grudges warlord trait. So you probably do about 7 or so mortal wounds with the first squad, enough to kill one, and viola, you pop the killing fields strat to raise the +1 to wound. So 270 points of scions SHOULD be able (with an astropath in support, and a tempest prime) land in a circle aroudn the target close in (this may take some valkyries to pull off) and because they are stepping out of valkyries, you don't suffer auspex scan fire.

So boom, first guy fires and gets 2 with mortals and 1 with regular woudns, boom, second guy and third guy each get 3, leaving one terminator to start in horror at the field of scions who can, next turn, shoot him to death again.

oh, and of course, you want to use psykers on them as well. Cause.

I know plasma inceptors are the current plasma hotness, but I think heavy hellblasters might be decent at this role. I've had pretty good luck with them hammering other 3W elite units like bladeguard and gravis and they've got a couple niches going for them:
-good range: they're able to sit back and plink away without needing to get into dangerous counterpunch range. They'll be well out of range of any reprisal from the terminators at least.
-A squad of 5 isn't so overly obnoxious that they're a priority target. If you've got enough mid or short range threats in your army, I find that hellblasters get largely ignored a lot of the time.
-Their AP-4 D3 overcharged shots are about as perfect as you can hope for, forcing the termies to use their 4++ and punishing them heavily for failures. The hellblasters might not have overwhelming shots, but they hit hard and reliably (no swingy damage). If you can pull off 2 or 3 terminators per volley, that's not bad for a unit that's a third or less of their target's cost. Bonus points for chapter bonuses, like ironhands or ultramarines, or even imperial fists (D3 without overcharging!) to get a little more milage out of them.

Will they 1:1 nuke the terminator unit? No. But I think they're an underlooked unit in some metas that are pushing lots of 3W elite infantry.

The nightbringer eats terminators for breakfast. Six melee attacks hitting on 2s, wounding on 2s with AP-4 DD6 damage, no inv against his attacks. His ctan power gaze of death does D3 MW for every 4+ he rolls with three dice. He cannot lose more than 3 wounds per phase, and heals 1 wound in the command phase.

Just for curiosity, does the Nightbringer ignore Transhuman?

I think anyway that finding out that Terminator are finally resilient isn't surprising. They still are very slow, couldn't possibly cover all the objective and are very pricey... 1 terminator dead is a non-negligible part of you forces even at 2000pt

Anything with damage 3, any source of mortal wounds and anything that can tarpit the termies, like 30+ man blobs or expendable transports parked in front of them.

These are the only things I'd throw against a killy unit of terminators. Unless I can use some immortal superhero that can delete them (or most of them) reliably, an untouched Ghazghkull for example can soak 3 turns of combat without dying, no matter the amount of damage he takes as he can only lose 4 wounds per fight phase, 33% of his total but a the same time he could remove 2-3 termies per turn.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Darsath wrote:
One of the Protocols lets you Ignore Cover within half range. Really killer with Mephrit, since with MWBD on the big squad, you hit on 2's, wound on 3's. and with -3 AP and Ignore Cover you force the squad onto a 4+ save either way. There's also a stratagem that can give Ignores Cover, but pretty sure the Space Marine player would use their Stratagem that would make it so you can't wound their squad on better than a 4+ (though that might be restricted to only primaris squads I can't remember).

Transhuman is Primaris only, yes.

Transhuman is no longer required hah hah. Used to be a scary thing that strat. Power creep at its finest, having such a great strat become a "half armywide rule"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cybtroll wrote:
Just for curiosity, does the Nightbringer ignore Transhuman?

I think anyway that finding out that Terminator are finally resilient isn't surprising. They still are very slow, couldn't possibly cover all the objective and are very pricey... 1 terminator dead is a non-negligible part of you forces even at 2000pt

Nightbringer does not ignore transhuman or the DA "always on" version, and will kill perhaps two deathwing dudes, three with quite above average rolls, before dying the subsequent turn. A very poor answer to Deathwing, seeing how expensive Nightbringer is. DA can deal quite a decent amount of MWs in psychic phase, so...

maybe, if you get them close enough (which is problematic), a Cyclops Demolition Charge?

2D6 Autohits at 9/-2/Dd3. So 7 hits, 5.83 wounds, ~1 gets through even if they get +2 to their save. 1.77 Dd3 hits are needed to kill a W3 model or in other words: 1/3 of the Termies within range should be dead, 1/3 at 1 wound left and 1/3 at 2 wounds left.

The charge only costs 50 points, so if you can pull this off getting within 6'' of at least 2 Termies should win back ist points.

 addnid wrote:

Nightbringer does not ignore transhuman or the DA "always on" version, and will kill perhaps two deathwing dudes, three with quite above average rolls, before dying the subsequent turn. A very poor answer to Deathwing, seeing how expensive Nightbringer is. DA can deal quite a decent amount of MWs in psychic phase, so...

I didnt know only DA have terminators. The question was ideal way to take out terminators with stormshields with coversave. Not all terminators have transhuman, in fact, only DA terminators have that.

I have never heard of lqmbada lions. But them and the Night ringer sounds like good counters.

I would need to run the numbers on hellblasters. But yes, D3 plasma certainly helps a lot. I debated hellblasters when eradicators and blade guard where the hotness. I just find it hard to justefy the heavy 1 option over the rapid fire option.

Also, are not just 6 plasma shots from plasma interceptors sound more cost effective.

Depends on the army.
But lots of small-arms fire helps a lot, while e.g. lascannon shots are hit or miss.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Depends on the army.
But lots of small-arms fire helps a lot, while e.g. lascannon shots are hit or miss.

I think your hypotethis is wrong. 210 points of devil gaunts with shoot twice stratagem (180 shots) only killed 2 Terminators. Small arms fire does not 'help a lot'.

A lascannon would stil be saved on 3. And not kill a terminator 1/3 of the time. The number of lascannon shots for a sure kill would be staggering. Especially considering their cost.

 p5freak wrote:

 addnid wrote:

Nightbringer does not ignore transhuman or the DA "always on" version, and will kill perhaps two deathwing dudes, three with quite above average rolls, before dying the subsequent turn. A very poor answer to Deathwing, seeing how expensive Nightbringer is. DA can deal quite a decent amount of MWs in psychic phase, so...

I didnt know only DA have terminators. The question was ideal way to take out terminators with stormshields with coversave. Not all terminators have transhuman, in fact, only DA terminators have that.

They are the only problematic terminators ATM, other "terminator like units" are not called terminators. Now did the OP mean "terminator like units" or not ? That is the question

lambda lions are just one of the militarum tempestus regiments that came out back in psychic awakenings, they are perhaps the strongest (another regiment has an extra 6 inch range on RF weapons, which is also VERY strong, as it allows rapidfire on drops)

If you use lots of valkyries in your list, though, nothign beats the lambdas.

It's not really gonna matter because it is going to be nerfed rather quickly but if you must play against this aged gouda...str 4/5 ap-2/3 is going to be the sweet spot.

Intercessor bolt rifles
Sterngard vets (with grav if you want)
Necron warriors en mass