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Insectum7 wrote:1: The Monolith is not very good right now.

They really haven't been the same at all since the 5th Edition codex. Now it's a Lord of War (making it a large decision process to take) and still not as tough as it was back then.

Insectum7 wrote:2: No Pariahs

Yeah, another issue. Ostensibly it is because of Lychguard, but as it really that hard to keep them separate on the table? The models were more robust and had a Blaster on their Scythes. Then they had Psychic Awakening and... nothing? What do they have now to actually counter Psykers other than blasting them real good?

Insectum7 wrote:3: C'tan are enslaved.

This one actually made more sense to me. While the 3rd Ed C'tan were powerful, they never felt like they dominated reality better than the Greater Daemons. Having them be shattered actually helped explain why they were so "weak".

Insectum7 wrote:If I had things my way, I'd bring Pariahs and pump up Monoliths for all Necrons. Then I'd offer the option for a Living C'tan Necron army, representing Necrons that are (volountarily or not) still under the sway of a C'tan entity. I'd use this as an excuse to pump up the traditional units when taking this option, and I'd put Phase Out back on the table. I'd also re-introduce the original "Transcendent C'tan" unit from (Apocalypse? 40K Escalation?), the really really nasty one.

That way people could have their "undead" Crons, and some of us could have their "hyper-terminator" Crons.

That would be hard to fit in to one codex, even with a supplement. Lore wouldn't be a problem, that's just words, but the rules to support it? yeesh.

One thing I think they did in error when they introduced the Transcendent C'tan with the Obelisk is that they should have done like the Greater Daemons where you have some lesser Shards that are Elite/HQ level power and some at Lord of War power. I guess they didn't because they didn't have two scales of models and it would be hard to tell the difference, but I still think it's a missed opportunity.

SemperMortis wrote:Necrons do number in the trillions. But that is a drop in the ocean compared to the "hordes" of humanity they would face. A Necron warrior was a match for a space marine, but in most settings it wouldn't be 1 space marine vs 1 necron warrior. It would be 10-20 necron warriors vs 1 space marine and a few hundred guardsmen.

Most stories I've read they usually have a few squads of Marines and a Character involved.

But there is a difference between having something put in a story and putting it on the tabletop in a game format. If we put Warriors as they are in the current codex on the Tabletop, increased their max unit size to 30 and set their ppm to 6, we'd get a feel of that silver tide but it would be massively imbalanced. That was the point I was trying to make.

Karol wrote:I have no anwser to why to why, other then if necron are undead in space, then undead skeletons are always weak enemies. Making them suddenly more powerful then marines seems strange.

Maybe its because you're not used to them being as or more powerful than Marines in the first place. It's not like they are the Plague Zombies that Nurgle causes, nor are they just bones, but have bodies of living metal that can repair themselves. Think T-800s that can almost repair themselves as well as a T-1000.

Oddly enough, they don't even need Trillions of Warriors in total. They just need enough to gain control of a territory and the ability to recover them to repair.

Easy Necron Codex Supplement.

I mean really though, if Marines can fit all those units in one book Necrons could fit a bit more.

You say that setting Warriors to 6 PPM with no stat changes would be broken.

I agree-because you’re attacking a straw man. No one, as far as I can tell, advocated for Warriors to be stronger AND cheaper than Marines.

Maybe its because you're not used to them being as or more powerful than Marines in the first place. It's not like they are the Plague Zombies that Nurgle causes, nor are they just bones, but have bodies of living metal that can repair themselves. Think T-800s that can almost repair themselves as well as a T-1000.

I don't know what a t800 or t1000 is. So I can't really give an anwser to this statment.

Karol wrote:

Maybe its because you're not used to them being as or more powerful than Marines in the first place. It's not like they are the Plague Zombies that Nurgle causes, nor are they just bones, but have bodies of living metal that can repair themselves. Think T-800s that can almost repair themselves as well as a T-1000.

I don't know what a t800 or t1000 is. So I can't really give an anwser to this statment.

The Terminators. From the movies of the same name.

Insectum7 wrote:Easy Necron Codex Supplement.

I mean really though, if Marines can fit all those units in one book Necrons could fit a bit more.

And have two sets of rules for Warriors, Immortals, etc? No.

For GW, it would basically require doubling up the number of models as (aside from Marine flavor #32) they need a new model with a new name so groups like ChapterHouse don't try to horn in with a legal leg to stand on.

Not saying that new models would be a bad thing, just that one couldn't do such a thing with what is in print now.

JNAProductions wrote:You say that setting Warriors to 6 PPM with no stat changes would be broken.

I agree-because you’re attacking a straw man. No one, as far as I can tell, advocated for Warriors to be stronger AND cheaper than Marines.

Well this what what it was centered on:

Charistoph wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
No, there's no way to have the Necron warrior be as numerous as they are while simultaneously being more formidable than any troop save a Custodian Guard without damaging the integrity of the setting.

I don't think it would imbalance the setting, but it would imbalance the game. Having strong stats and decent squad size with low points is incredibly imbalancing as you can't put out enough damage to counter their numbers. The story can allude to trillions of Warriors out there, but we would still only be facing a relative few in the game because of the territory the game covers.

Numbers in fluff are largely irrelevant to the game setting, but how powerful the model's rules are. I was providing a correction against it being damaging to the setting for Necrons to be vastly numerous, but still be able to take on a Custodian Guard.

 Charistoph wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Easy Necron Codex Supplement.

I mean really though, if Marines can fit all those units in one book Necrons could fit a bit more.

And have two sets of rules for Warriors, Immortals, etc? No.

For GW, it would basically require doubling up the number of models as (aside from Marine flavor #32) they need a new model with a new name so groups like ChapterHouse don't try to horn in with a legal leg to stand on.

Not saying that new models would be a bad thing, just that one couldn't do such a thing with what is in print now.

Ever notice how Space Marines can have different rules if they're painted differently? Simple as that.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Easy Necron Codex Supplement.

I mean really though, if Marines can fit all those units in one book Necrons could fit a bit more.

And have two sets of rules for Warriors, Immortals, etc? No.

For GW, it would basically require doubling up the number of models as (aside from Marine flavor #32) they need a new model with a new name so groups like ChapterHouse don't try to horn in with a legal leg to stand on.

Not saying that new models would be a bad thing, just that one couldn't do such a thing with what is in print now.

Ever notice how Space Marines can have different rules if they're painted differently? Simple as that.

Except the stats don't change as you've suggested. If the stats change enough, there are models for it, yes, even for the Marines.

 Charistoph wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:Necrons do number in the trillions. But that is a drop in the ocean compared to the "hordes" of humanity they would face. A Necron warrior was a match for a space marine, but in most settings it wouldn't be 1 space marine vs 1 necron warrior. It would be 10-20 necron warriors vs 1 space marine and a few hundred guardsmen.

Most stories I've read they usually have a few squads of Marines and a Character involved.

But there is a difference between having something put in a story and putting it on the tabletop in a game format. If we put Warriors as they are in the current codex on the Tabletop, increased their max unit size to 30 and set their ppm to 6, we'd get a feel of that silver tide but it would be massively imbalanced. That was the point I was trying to make.

Yes, i've read those books as well, i refer to that genre as "Bolter Porn" because its basically just that. fluff differs wildly by author, book, year, etc etc, but the general concept at the moment, as written in the necron fluff, is that their dynasty is waking up and they have trillions of members of their society and since as far as we know, basically the entire society is militarized robots of one sort or another its fair to say their are more necrons than space marines and by a large margin. And in other fluff books you have Necron warriors disintegrating space marines with apparent ease while flayed ones are gutting Space Marines in close combat. So at the moment again, points wise they are about equal, power wise they aren't which is sad but meh whatever, and fluff wise there are more necrons than Marines

 Charistoph wrote:

Except the stats don't change as you've suggested. If the stats change enough, there are models for it, yes, even for the Marines.

Trygons and Trygon Primes share the same model, but are different unit entries with different statlines and keywords. The Carnifex model has three different datasheets, and some model-part combinations are shared between them. Chapter Tactics can modify things like saves, or add reroll modifiers, etc. A Chapter Master isn't a special model. Where there's a will there's a way.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Except the stats don't change as you've suggested. If the stats change enough, there are models for it, yes, even for the Marines.

Trygons and Trygon Primes share the same model, but are different unit entries with different statlines and keywords. The Carnifex model has three different datasheets, and some model-part combinations are shared between them. Chapter Tactics can modify things like saves, or add reroll modifiers, etc. A Chapter Master isn't a special model. Where there's a will there's a way.

Calgar disagrees

 fraser1191 wrote:
Lore wise it'd be cool to see Catan loyal Necrons. If that were the case I'd say Necron warriors can be on par or slightly better than marines since there would be a 1:1 enemy out there, in similar numbers and tech. Even still with Necrons at that level I'd wager no faction could compete. Not orks, eldar, nids already struggle against them, Tau. Poor Tau they'd just surround them.

Necrons who were loyal to the Settlers would be... worrying, especially if they too got wood for sheep.

And, frankly, I'd be quite happy to see the Silver Tide let loose upon the blue naifs - go forth and wipe them out, tin boys!

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Except the stats don't change as you've suggested. If the stats change enough, there are models for it, yes, even for the Marines.

Trygons and Trygon Primes share the same model, but are different unit entries with different statlines and keywords. The Carnifex model has three different datasheets, and some model-part combinations are shared between them. Chapter Tactics can modify things like saves, or add reroll modifiers, etc. A Chapter Master isn't a special model. Where there's a will there's a way.

HQ Character version of another type doesn't do so well in comparison. How are you going to present two different Warriors as one who are cheap and spammable and the other as expensive and powerful, both Troops, in the same codex, yet not provide another model for it, and convince GW to do it?

 Charistoph wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Except the stats don't change as you've suggested. If the stats change enough, there are models for it, yes, even for the Marines.

Trygons and Trygon Primes share the same model, but are different unit entries with different statlines and keywords. The Carnifex model has three different datasheets, and some model-part combinations are shared between them. Chapter Tactics can modify things like saves, or add reroll modifiers, etc. A Chapter Master isn't a special model. Where there's a will there's a way.

HQ Character version of another type doesn't do so well in comparison. How are you going to present two different Warriors as one who are cheap and spammable and the other as expensive and powerful, both Troops, in the same codex, yet not provide another model for it, and convince GW to do it?

I can't convince GW of anything. But if I were GW, there would be plenty of ways to do what I propose. You're just erecting barriers where there needn't be any.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Except the stats don't change as you've suggested. If the stats change enough, there are models for it, yes, even for the Marines.

Trygons and Trygon Primes share the same model, but are different unit entries with different statlines and keywords. The Carnifex model has three different datasheets, and some model-part combinations are shared between them. Chapter Tactics can modify things like saves, or add reroll modifiers, etc. A Chapter Master isn't a special model. Where there's a will there's a way.

HQ Character version of another type doesn't do so well in comparison. How are you going to present two different Warriors as one who are cheap and spammable and the other as expensive and powerful, both Troops, in the same codex, yet not provide another model for it, and convince GW to do it?

I dunno, the same way Sisters of Battle Dominion squads can be exactly the same as the SoB troop option? Or, like he said, the Trygon/Trygon Prime situation?

Insectum7 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
HQ Character version of another type doesn't do so well in comparison. How are you going to present two different Warriors as one who are cheap and spammable and the other as expensive and powerful, both Troops, in the same codex, yet not provide another model for it, and convince GW to do it?

I can't convince GW of anything. But if I were GW, there would be plenty of ways to do what I propose. You're just erecting barriers where there needn't be any.

Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
HQ Character version of another type doesn't do so well in comparison. How are you going to present two different Warriors as one who are cheap and spammable and the other as expensive and powerful, both Troops, in the same codex, yet not provide another model for it, and convince GW to do it?

I dunno, the same way Sisters of Battle Dominion squads can be exactly the same as the SoB troop option? Or, like he said, the Trygon/Trygon Prime situation?

Those are units from different slots, not the same model providing models for the two vastly different units in the same slot. Dominions also have the same stats as the rest of the Sisters while the Prime is an HQ. The equivalent issue at hand is more like using Scout models as Intercessors.

So it's not me erecting barriers, it is recognizing the barriers that already exist and pointing them out.

Why does the slot matter?

I dunno this is a tough one.

Vet intercessors are intercessors technically with different stats, but +1A and +1Ld is super common for vet status.

Having the same model for current warriors and then old Crons is basically the debate of "my armies painted ultras, but I'm playing X"

The same argument of "I'm expecting these stats when I fire at this unit"

 Charistoph wrote:

Spoiler:

Insectum7 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
HQ Character version of another type doesn't do so well in comparison. How are you going to present two different Warriors as one who are cheap and spammable and the other as expensive and powerful, both Troops, in the same codex, yet not provide another model for it, and convince GW to do it?

I can't convince GW of anything. But if I were GW, there would be plenty of ways to do what I propose. You're just erecting barriers where there needn't be any.

Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
HQ Character version of another type doesn't do so well in comparison. How are you going to present two different Warriors as one who are cheap and spammable and the other as expensive and powerful, both Troops, in the same codex, yet not provide another model for it, and convince GW to do it?

I dunno, the same way Sisters of Battle Dominion squads can be exactly the same as the SoB troop option? Or, like he said, the Trygon/Trygon Prime situation?

Those are units from different slots, not the same model providing models for the two vastly different units in the same slot. Dominions also have the same stats as the rest of the Sisters while the Prime is an HQ. The equivalent issue at hand is more like using Scout models as Intercessors.

So it's not me erecting barriers, it is recognizing the barriers that already exist and pointing them out.

Trygon Prime is not an HQ. It's a Heavy Support sitting right next to the Trygon. DIfferent statline, different Keywords, different points cost.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Why does the slot matter?

Why does slot matter? We're talking about a Troops unit and you're wondering why that matters? Take a few minutes to think on that.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Trygon Prime is not an HQ. It's a Heavy Support sitting right next to the Trygon. DIfferent statline, different Keywords, different points cost.

Sorry had a Mandella Effect moment. As of the last codex I have access to, the stat difference is literally only 2 points in Ld, but that was with 5th and 6th. Base biomorphs were the same, with the Prime having Synapse (which is probably lead to my confusion) and more options due to "Bio-Artefacts".

So in this case, it literally is a Character version of the other, and a monster to boot. You're still proposing the equivalent of using Scouts as Intercessors and Scouts interchangeably.

^Same models are used for CSM and Chosen, too. Different entries, stats, points etc.

You're literally just trying to find excuses to prevent doing it, contrarianism in it's purest form.

 Charistoph wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Why does the slot matter?

Why does slot matter? We're talking about a Troops unit and you're wondering why that matters? Take a few minutes to think on that.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Trygon Prime is not an HQ. It's a Heavy Support sitting right next to the Trygon. DIfferent statline, different Keywords, different points cost.

Sorry had a Mandella Effect moment. As of the last codex I have access to, the stat difference is literally only 2 points in Ld, but that was with 5th and 6th. Base biomorphs were the same, with the Prime having Synapse (which is probably lead to my confusion) and more options due to "Bio-Artefacts".

So in this case, it literally is a Character version of the other, and a monster to boot. You're still proposing the equivalent of using Scouts as Intercessors and Scouts interchangeably.

Why does the slot matter for what a model represents?

I wholly agree that Troops are more valuable than an identical Elites unit.
But what on earth does that have to do with whether or not you can use the same model to represent different things?

 JNAProductions wrote:
I wholly agree that Troops are more valuable than an identical Elites unit.
But what on earth does that have to do with whether or not you can use the same model to represent different things?

It isn't a question of value. It is a question of having what looks like the same unit of models being used as another unit in the same FOC, and Troops are the most commonly used FOC slot.

It goes back to WYSIWYG and how important it is to have consistency in the system. Chosen can be marked out just like Sternguard can be by different equipment that the normal CSM just don't have access to (to use Insectum's reference). And in this case, it isn't just being able to use that to identify them, which can lead to problematical shenanigans. Unless we're going to use something like the new Reaper guns to tell the difference between the 1W Warriors and the 2W Warriors, it's a bad case of using the Scout models as Primaris Intercessors as well as Troop Scouts (when that was a thing).

Carnifex model can be fielded as three different units in the same FOC.
Trygon/Trygon Prime, same thing.

Also you could preclude the option for the competing unit in the list.

Chosen don't have access to any equipment normal CSM don't have, they can just have more of it. It's entirely possible to have a squad of Chosen that are indistinguishable from a squad of basic CSM.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Chosen don't have access to any equipment normal CSM don't have, they can just have more of it. It's entirely possible to have a squad of Chosen that are indistinguishable from a squad of basic CSM.

^Likewise Sternguard-Command-Tactical Squads, and Command-Vanguard-Assault Squads. Devastators too, even. A painted badge is all it takes.

Insectum7 wrote:Carnifex model can be fielded as three different units in the same FOC.
Trygon/Trygon Prime, same thing.

Also you could preclude the option for the competing unit in the list.

What are the differences in stats between the Carnifex broods and the Trygon broods, exactly? Are they the same difference as between a Scout and Intercessor? Is it across 10-20 models per unit or are they just 3 different models you'd be plonking on the ttable?

Gadzilla666 wrote: Chosen don't have access to any equipment normal CSM don't have, they can just have more of it. It's entirely possible to have a squad of Chosen that are indistinguishable from a squad of basic CSM.

It is that capacity I was referencing, actually. And the stats from Chosen aren't that different from the Troops, +1A and +1L. What would the point of equipping them just like a basic squad of CSM? One of the reasons to take CSM is that capacity of options.

Would that match all the differences between the Warriors that Insectum is talking about?

^"The sky would fall! Can't do it, can't do it!!"

For Trygon it's 2 Ld I think, Synapse keyword and some amount of points. Carnifex stats remain the same but they get some different special rules. No book with me atm, but that's what I recall.

 Charistoph wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote: Chosen don't have access to any equipment normal CSM don't have, they can just have more of it. It's entirely possible to have a squad of Chosen that are indistinguishable from a squad of basic CSM.

It is that capacity I was referencing, actually. And the stats from Chosen aren't that different from the Troops, +1A and +1L. What would the point of equipping them just like a basic squad of CSM? One of the reasons to take CSM is that capacity of options.

Would that match all the differences between the Warriors that Insectum is talking about?

The point would be for that +1 attack and +1 leadership. If you're making a melee unit then the extra attack is a big deal, and Night Lords will take all the leadership we can get for the maximum opportunity to use Prey On the Weak. An all chainswords and pistols Chosen squad will look just like an all chainswords and pistols CSM squad. It isn't how I run my Chosen but some might.

The most obvious example of two units in the same army that are virtually indistinguishable from each other is intercessors and Veteran intercessors. Exact same weapons, just +1 attack and +1 leadership, not even the additional options Chosen have compared to CSM. If those are allowed I don't see how Insectum's ideas for Warriors would be a problem.

Karol wrote:

Maybe its because you're not used to them being as or more powerful than Marines in the first place. It's not like they are the Plague Zombies that Nurgle causes, nor are they just bones, but have bodies of living metal that can repair themselves. Think T-800s that can almost repair themselves as well as a T-1000.

I don't know what a t800 or t1000 is. So I can't really give an anwser to this statment.

What do kids even watch these days growing up..