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They don't have to, but the way GW has built the faction does require that (e.g. the fact that Necron Warriors can be deployed in large units of 20 models).

Moreover, there is no fluff that says that Necron Warriors have to be better than Marines, and most of the relatively recent fluff suggest the opposite, after all Marines are deployed in ridiculous low numbers, and yet are supposed to be able to fight Necrons.

'Warriors need to be worse because Marines need to kill them' is certainly a take.

But warriors are actually better on the tabletop than both tacticals and intercessors?


They fell more hordey because they are a HORDE. They are a silver tide. And Space Marines are like the second most elite army of the game after Custodes. (EDIT: I forgot Imperial Knights but those dont count for obvious reasons)


Really, this obsesion with "muh marines" feels just... childlish at this point.

The "horde" troop of the necrons is probably one of the most expensive and better troops (Speaking about quality and how they play on the table) of the game outside Tyranid Warriors, Custodes and Marines loyalist and chaotic.

Sisters of Battle, Orks, Adeptus Mechanicus, Imperial Guard, Tau, Cratworld Eldar, Harlequins, Dark Eldar all use cheaper and weaker troops (Kataprons and harlequines with full equip are more expensive but...) and have many "elite" units that are "weaker" than necron warriors.

Necrons are the space marines of the xenos. At this point, thematically, the only units that can feel wrong are the "elite" units of the necrons that compared with marine units don't seem as imposing, specially compared with primaris.

But compare something like a Lychguard with a Sanguinary Guard, the most elite unit of the blood angels. And it does not feel weaker. It isnt just by pure stats.

 Tyran wrote:
They don't have to, but the way GW has built the faction does require that (e.g. the fact that Necron Warriors can be deployed in large units of 20 models).

Fyi, CSM can be deployed in 20-man units. Warriors were also fieldable in 20 man units back when they cost more than Space Marines. Being able to take a big unit of something does not mean it has to be not-elite.

Chaos Space Marines are currently only 1 point more expensive than Necron Warriors, so define "not-elite".

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
They don't have to, but the way GW has built the faction does require that (e.g. the fact that Necron Warriors can be deployed in large units of 20 models).

Fyi, CSM can be deployed in 20-man units. Warriors were also fieldable in 20 man units back when they cost more than Space Marines. Being able to take a big unit of something does not mean it has to be not-elite.

Plague Marines used to be fieldable in 20-man units. Used to be. I see some writing on the wall for CSM squads.

 Galas wrote:

They fell more hordey because they are a HORDE. They are a silver tide. And Space Marines are like the second most elite army of the game . . .

Here's the thing, man. At one point that just wasn't the case. Tyranids could field an elite army with Warriors and Genestealers, Eldar could field an elite army with Aspect Warriors, and Necrons could field an elite army with Warriors, and Chaos could field an elite army with lesser daemons. At one point, ALL of those things were pointed closer to, and more capable at fighting, Marines on an individual level.

 Galas wrote:

Really, this obsesion with "muh marines" feels just... childlish at this point.

To those of us who've been in the game for a while, it's the continued obsession and improvement of marines that seems childish. It's "Speeesh Marheeeens" codified and made manifest.


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 alextroy wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
They don't have to, but the way GW has built the faction does require that (e.g. the fact that Necron Warriors can be deployed in large units of 20 models).

Fyi, CSM can be deployed in 20-man units. Warriors were also fieldable in 20 man units back when they cost more than Space Marines. Being able to take a big unit of something does not mean it has to be not-elite.

Plague Marines used to be fieldable in 20-man units. Used to be. I see some writing on the wall for CSM squads.

We'll see, either way the point stands.

 Galas wrote:

They fell more hordey because they are a HORDE. They are a silver tide. And Space Marines are like the second most elite army of the game . . .

Technically speaking Space Marines are not an army, they are an elite part of an army. That they have their own codex doesn't make them an army, in terms of lore/fluff. This is one of the things that throws Space Marines off in terms of gameplay. Every other species has their heaviest Elites outside of Troops, while the Imperium of Man gets to cheat at the game by not only putting Elites in to Troops, but propagating their resources beyond any other codex, and boosting them to boot without even considering how that affects the game's other forces, some of whom have been standing toe-to-toe with them for decades.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Really, this obsesion with "muh marines" feels just... childlish at this point.

To those of us who've been in the game for a while, it's the continued obsession and improvement of marines that seems childish. It's "Speeesh Marheeeens" codified and made manifest.

Pretty much.

 Tyran wrote:
Imperial Guard conscripts can outfight primitives who have yet to discover fire

'Primitives who have yet to discover fire should be able to beat lasgun-equipped conscripts one-on-one, because those conscripts are the chaff of the Guard army'.

That's what the argument that Warriors are chaff boils down to.

The fact that Necron Warriors are chaff within the context of their own army says nothing about how they should stack up against other factions. Marines are just especially burly cavemen compared to them.

And that's why we have plenty of novels of Space Marines vs Necrons so we can have an idea of how they usually fare against each other.

 Tyran wrote:
And that's why we have plenty of novels of Space Marines vs Necrons so we can have an idea of how they usually fare against each other.

Most of the novels are s*** in that regard. Not too many months ago someone was arguing that Marines could WALK 60mph or some such because of some passage they read in one of the novels. I'd put the novels at "quite unreliable" for source.

 Tyran wrote:
And that's why we have plenty of novels of Space Marines vs Necrons so we can have an idea of how they usually fare against each other.

BL's novels are notoriously unreliable when it comes to depictions of their subjects. Looking to them for solid answers regarding such questions as this thread asks is, at best, misguided. As often as not you'll quote one passage of one book only to be contradicted by another passage from a different book (or possibly even a different passage in the same book where drama or the author's wishes demanded a different answer).

So novels are unreliable, and so are the rules...
to be honest it seems you are just disregarding anything that might contradict you, and then you get angry when others disregard you in turn.

 Tyran wrote:
So novels are unreliable, and so are the rules...
to be honest it seems you are just disregarding anything that might contradict you, and then you get angry when others disregard you in turn.

Glass houses, Tyran.

 Tyran wrote:
So novels are unreliable, and so are the rules...
to be honest it seems you are just disregarding anything that might contradict you, and then you get angry when others disregard you in turn.

What am I disregarding, exactly? The Black Library fluff that's generally the story told about extreme cases for dramatic effect and the puffery of narrative focus? (Marines)

Arguably the rules are a better yardstick for who is better than who, since the rules are built around a supposedly neutral starting point.

But it's still rather beside the point. . . The point is that Necron Warriors (and many other units) have seen a degradation in comparison to Marines over the years.

 Tyran wrote:
So novels are unreliable, and so are the rules...
to be honest it seems you are just disregarding anything that might contradict you, and then you get angry when others disregard you in turn.

The fluff (novels and game fluff) and rules are both wildly schizophrenic. Power levels depend entirely on whose viewpoint the fluff/novel is being written from, or on what edition of the rules you're picking on as your standard. You can find evidence that a squad of Space Marines should be able to curbstomp whole armies, or that the Necrons should roll over any amount of Space Marines matched against them, or anything else, depending on whose Codex you're reading a fluff blurb from.

 Charistoph wrote:

Technically speaking Space Marines are not an army, they are an elite part of an army. That they have their own codex doesn't make them an army, in terms of lore/fluff.

No. They are shown to operate as a force unto themselves without help from the greater Imperium quite frequently. Some Astartes chapters don't interact with the Imperium much. They're as much their own army as, say, Craftworld Elder are. Sure, sometimes Craftworld Eldar work with Harlequins, but they do their own thing a lot of the time.

I admit I was not there when necrons were first introduced.

My first exposure to necrons was Dawn of War 1 with Dark Crusade and ... in that cinematic marines are killing necron warriors like they are nothing?



Of course then they get back up, are much superior in numbers, and THEN the "good stuff" of the necrons show up.

We all know marines with two wounds created a "stat gap" in the game for basicall everybody from aspect warriors to custodes that now have the same wounds as normal terminators or primaris veterans.

But is not like necron warriors are specially an egregious example compared with marines and other factions. The biggest tone change in necron warrior power level was the change from 3rd to 5th. From there on they have been consistently displayed as... pretty hard robo-skeletons that refuse to die with a good gun. And not only agaisnt marines, but the orks, the eldar and the Tau too!

I cannot remember any Necron fluff in the past 10+ years were warriors were portrayed as any kind of unstopable force individually. And I'll repeat, not talking necron vs marine but necron vs anything fluff here.

If you prefer the old fluff thats fine but... times change. And they have changed more than a decade ago.

The point of this thread was to discuss whether the change that has happened over the last 10 years is good or bad for the game thematically. So...we know the game has changed. That's what spurred the thread. To discuss whether we think it is a good or bad change thematically.

A lot of people seem to think the game being reduced to a power fantasy for Marine players makes it less interesting, and that's really all anyone is saying.

But there are a (probably) larger number of people who are happy with the marine power fantasy and prefer it to the older background where things were more desperate for humanity. I guess it depends if you prefer power fantasy super hero storytelling to the more dystopian British comic inpspired storytelling of the earlier game.

I actually feel the worst change for the game has not been the rules (Marines being marines and not dying like schumcks to a imperial guard infantry squad firing 37 shots at 12 feels great) but the deliberated portrayal of the Imperium as not only the protagonist but also as the good guys.

I know, they can't marketing their universe to the great audience with the dark stuff the Imperium does, and I know in more secondary outlets (like necromunda narrative, books, etc...) the Imperium is still presented as this horrible dystopia.

But more and more the Space Marines are shiny knights in armor saving the day for the poor innocent human soldiers and civilians.

I say both of those analysis are wrong. There is no Space Marine Power Fantasy going on here. There is a rebalancing to make the game more closely resemble the background along with some revision of that background. Space Marines have long been supposed to be powerful compared to most opponents. They have long been supposed to be able to fight and win against overwhelming odds. There was a reason GW made that tongue-in-cheek Movie Marine list so many years ago. It because the Space Marine model has long failed to live up to the Space Marine background. Now it is much closer without every Space Marine having the stats of a Custodes or Captain.

There has been weakening of some of the competition like lesser daemens, Necron Warriors, and the like over the years. This allows them to be fielded on the table in a manner GW wants visually without overwhelming they opposition. It also brings them more inline with the background and fiction, where those forces don't roll everyone with a combination of both numbers and individual strength. I suppose GW could go back to the days of Phase Out where the baddies have strong models at favorable points value that spontaneously lose the game if the opponent succeeds in some special circumstance. I don't recall that being a popular option.

What you described is exactly the Marine power fantasy. How can you say there is no Marine power fantasy and then immediately talk about rules being changed to match the fantasy that Marines are super powerful?

Simple. If the background has always said Space Marines are powerful, it's not a power fantasy. It is the World of Warhammer 40K.

The background is a fantastical construct that has slowly twisted to become a Marine power fantasy. This was accelerated by the Horus Heresy series.

This has not always been the state of the background, but it has gradually become the norm.

So it is a fantasy setting where most of the fiction (and now the rules of the game) are about the power of space marines.

A space marine power fantasy.

Like, you might not like that characterisation of the setting for whatever reason, it might make you feel negative emotions and so you want to reclassify it. But it is still true that the background you are talking about is a space marine power fantasy.

Marines being over-specced super soldiers is fine, but it should absolutely be tempered by the ferocity of some of the opposition. Sure, marines can bully moderate amounts of orks or whatever, but there are some things in the galaxy that they handle with care more than they do with gusto.

Necron warriors might be a lot less flexible but they're also much more able to win a war of attrition so slugging it out in an open firefight is inadvisable. Daemons are either brutal enough that even specialised close-range marines are walking on thin ice or just plain weird enough that you need discipline and caution to not get a nasty surprise.

Marines as baseline invincible aren't very interesting. Space marines as highly competent but specialised are. They don't just waltz into overwhelming firepower as a general tactic, they're just tough enough that they potentially can do it if there are absolutely no other reasonable alternatives. Situations that are certain death for regular humans are mostly poor chances for marines.

 Da Boss wrote:
The background is a fantastical construct that has slowly twisted to become a Marine power fantasy. This was accelerated by the Horus Heresy series.

This has not always been the state of the background, but it has gradually become the norm.

So it is a fantasy setting where most of the fiction (and now the rules of the game) are about the power of space marines.

A space marine power fantasy.

Like, you might not like that characterisation of the setting for whatever reason, it might make you feel negative emotions and so you want to reclassify it. But it is still true that the background you are talking about is a space marine power fantasy.

If you are so convinced everything GW is a space marine power fantasy, why are you here?

Space Marines are badasses. It is the background. The rules make them better than most individuals in most armies, just like the background. They aren't invincible and all available information indicates is that they will become progressively less overpowered as more and more Codexes are released.

See you didn't like what I said and now you're telling me to leave passive aggressively.

I don't mind the space marine power fantasy, because I don't have to take it seriously. I find it interesting to talk about.

The background used to be that Space Marines were less dangerous than a necron warrior or a bloodletter or whatever. The background has changed. We are discussing the merits of the change. The change is primarily to make the game more of a marine power fantasy. That's not a negative thing inherently, lots of cool things are power fantasies. We're just discussing it with reference to 40K in particular.

 alextroy wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
The background is a fantastical construct that has slowly twisted to become a Marine power fantasy. This was accelerated by the Horus Heresy series.

This has not always been the state of the background, but it has gradually become the norm.

So it is a fantasy setting where most of the fiction (and now the rules of the game) are about the power of space marines.

A space marine power fantasy.

Like, you might not like that characterisation of the setting for whatever reason, it might make you feel negative emotions and so you want to reclassify it. But it is still true that the background you are talking about is a space marine power fantasy.

If you are so convinced everything GW is a space marine power fantasy, why are you here?

Space Marines are badasses. It is the background. The rules make them better than most individuals in most armies, just like the background. They aren't invincible and all available information indicates is that they will become progressively less overpowered as more and more Codexes are released.

Space Marines are badasses. . . But so were a lot of other things. They were badass enough to give a Space Marine a run for his money in a 1v1 on their terms. Now? Much less so.

Howling Banshees used to slice and dice Space Marines in cc like they were nothing, for example. Genestealers defeated Terminators in 1v1 combat. Dire Avengers used to stand a good chance of winning a firefight with equal numbers as Marines. Bloodletters outright murdered Marines. Immortals cost nearly twice as much as a Marine and had vastly superior firepower. Chaos Space Marines could pump their squads up with Marks, Veteran skills, bolters AND Chainswords on a normal CSM model. Fire Warriors used to have the strongest "basic rifle" in the game, with a better range than all competition.

We have about two dozen codexes to see what the new place for all these units, except the Necrons, will be.

But I do believe that Immortals have vastly superior firepower compared to an Intercessor even though they don't cost twice as much anymore.

 alextroy wrote:
There was a reason GW made that tongue-in-cheek Movie Marine list so many years ago. It because the Space Marine model has long failed to live up to the Space Marine background.

The Movie Marines list opens with a quote from Eddie Murphy saying, paraphrased, 'I'm not a tough guy, but if I fight you in a movie I'm starring in, I'll kick your ass'. You could buy stunt doubles to take wounds instead of your dudes, and it explicitly mentioned that even if your opponent has the same weapons as you, yours get superpowered statlines, because you're the star of the show.

That's not meant to be 'lore-accurate' Marines. It was a fun acknowledgment of the protagonist bias in Marine-centric BL works, and that the BL books- which are inherently power fantasies, like any good action film/novel- portray Marines as far stronger than the 'ground truth' established by the game. Every faction in the game gets that treatment in their own books, but it's only Marines that now get to live up to that power fantasy on the tabletop.

Arguing that it's not a power fantasy because they're supposed to be better than everyone else at everything all the time is, like, completely missing the point of what a power fantasy is.