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 ninjafiredragon wrote:
10 man terminator blob.
Are yall leaning towards SS/TH for more defense and potency in combat, or for the cheaper StormBolter/PF load out? Storm bolter seams a little harder to ignore, as even if you dont get into combat your dumping 40 shots out.

But +1 to armor, and a 4++ is pretty huge, so curious as to what you guys think.

I think depends on what you want to use them for. They are very easy to ignore if you misplay them. And they don't hit as hard as Deathwing Knights. For me to consider a 10man hammershield squad I would be doing it for obsec reasons so this squad has to be contesting a risky objective or if holding a backfield objective be in a 5man squad or combat squad the 10 man. Otherwise if its to go hunt elite and vehicles the DW Knights do the job better.

Im leaning to Stormfist loadout. Can sit on an objective and still contribute to the battle and fairly cheap investment. Also giving some anti horde clearance is a nice bonus. If running in this way I would consider taking 3 hammershields in the squad. Otherwise if I have Azrael I would just go all stormfists and maybe one hammershield to tank the Ap1/2 shots. This loadout also allows it to start on the board and be a distraction while still contributing effectively unlike the hammerfist who would mostly be waiting till turn 3 if they were walking or failed a charge.

If you are just considering storm bolters and power fists, why not relic terminators?

 cuda1179 wrote:
If you are just considering storm bolters and power fists, why not relic terminators?

This is actually a good idea if you want a cheap obsec terminator unit. 5 of them with LC/SB are priced to move (170 points for 5 dudes) and still have decent damage output against horde-type stuff like Ork Boyz, Tyranid Gaunts, etc. This is actually something I want to try, as I have a Tartaros squad sitting around (mine actually have a Reaper cannon and Plasma Blaster, but those are cheap upgrades). The only downside is lack of access to either Teleport Homers or a Watcher in the Dark, but I'm not sure that's a deal breaker.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
If you are just considering storm bolters and power fists, why not relic terminators?

This is actually a good idea if you want a cheap obsec terminator unit. 5 of them with LC/SB are priced to move (170 points for 5 dudes) and still have decent damage output against horde-type stuff like Ork Boyz, Tyranid Gaunts, etc. This is actually something I want to try, as I have a Tartaros squad sitting around (mine actually have a Reaper cannon and Plasma Blaster, but those are cheap upgrades). The only downside is lack of access to either Teleport Homers or a Watcher in the Dark, but I'm not sure that's a deal breaker.

Not having even one storm shield means your squad is exposed to low ap threats, I think that is rather bad. Depends on your meta I guess

My 10 man has 3 TH/SS, 2 cyclones, rest mix of SB fist or chainfist. Sgt has one of the TH/SS.
Can combat sqd to leave both cyclones and 2 SS on objective while other 5 either teleport in ir advance up board

 bullyboy wrote:
My 10 man has 3 TH/SS, 2 cyclones, rest mix of SB fist or chainfist. Sgt has one of the TH/SS.
Can combat sqd to leave both cyclones and 2 SS on objective while other 5 either teleport in ir advance up board

I didn’t think of that, thanks mate ! I now know what to leave on the backfield objective chosen for stubborn defiance: 5 terminators with 2 cyclones and 2 or 3 SS/TH.
That squad can deal damage from afar, can tank, is obsec, it has it all ! The other squad can move forward and live its life more dangerously

If you are running Azreal, he pairs up nicely with relic terminators. His 4++ gives them a poor man's storm shield and then full rerolls on hits. Run them with SB and mostly LC with a few PF and you have a nice budget terminator squad that can handle just about anything they run across.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
If you are running Azreal, he pairs up nicely with relic terminators. His 4++ gives them a poor man's storm shield and then full rerolls on hits. Run them with SB and mostly LC with a few PF and you have a nice budget terminator squad that can handle just about anything they run across.

I was just thinking of what kind of damage output that setup would bring. A Terminator with two lightning claws on the charge with rerolls to hit would be doing 3.33 marine wounds. Not too bad. Even with a minimum sized squad you can more than expect to wipe out a marine unit.

 addnid wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
If you are just considering storm bolters and power fists, why not relic terminators?

This is actually a good idea if you want a cheap obsec terminator unit. 5 of them with LC/SB are priced to move (170 points for 5 dudes) and still have decent damage output against horde-type stuff like Ork Boyz, Tyranid Gaunts, etc. This is actually something I want to try, as I have a Tartaros squad sitting around (mine actually have a Reaper cannon and Plasma Blaster, but those are cheap upgrades). The only downside is lack of access to either Teleport Homers or a Watcher in the Dark, but I'm not sure that's a deal breaker.

Not having even one storm shield means your squad is exposed to low ap threats, I think that is rather bad. Depends on your meta I guess

Being as it's a cheap unit, if you lose them it doesn't hurt as much. That's the whole idea with Relic Termies IMO. Definitely put some TH/SS in the squad if you're running CMLs or something (probably just a couple because hopefully that unit is near Azrael for the 4++). Also, Inner Circle makes those low AP threats much less, err, threatening, because they still need a 4+ to wound and your dudes have 3 wounds.

So, weird question. I've played 40k for decades.... own seven huuuuuuuge armies... and somehow have never owned a Space Marine one.

What are people's thoughts on starting with two of the Dark Angel Combat Patrol boxes, even if I may well end up running them as a different Chapter? That box just seems to have a lot of the best units, with no dead weight?

Thoughts? They might initially become Iron Hands, but i'd love to try running all flavors to see what clicks.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So, weird question. I've played 40k for decades.... own seven huuuuuuuge armies... and somehow have never owned a Space Marine one.

What are people's thoughts on starting with two of the Dark Angel Combat Patrol boxes, even if I may well end up running them as a different Chapter? That box just seems to have a lot of the best units, with no dead weight?

Thoughts? They might initially become Iron Hands, but i'd love to try running all flavors to see what clicks.

Plasma Inceptors are solid gold, especially with Dark Angels. Redemptors are the best flavor of Dreadnoughts other than the Forge World ones. And you'll need Intercessors most likely as your troops. Two Chaplains are never really necessary, but maybe with a bit of imagination and some kitbashing/green stuff skills you could turn one into a Captain or Librarian or something. So getting two of those boxes could make a decent little core for you. Personally, I might go with one DA box and one BA box for a little variety, and you can sell whichever upgrade sprues you don't end up using.

I concur with Zergsmasher!

No bad choices in the DA box, but as he says you don't really need two Chaplains.

Do the Inceptors in the Combat Patrol have the Plasma options? I was not sure if they were the ones from the 8th edition starter kit that only had the bolt pistol variant. If they do, it's a solid box for sure and just try to trade out the extra Chaplain with someone as two Chaplains are not overly necessary.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So, weird question. I've played 40k for decades.... own seven huuuuuuuge armies... and somehow have never owned a Space Marine one.

What are people's thoughts on starting with two of the Dark Angel Combat Patrol boxes, even if I may well end up running them as a different Chapter? That box just seems to have a lot of the best units, with no dead weight?

Thoughts? They might initially become Iron Hands, but i'd love to try running all flavors to see what clicks.

Plasma Inceptors are solid gold, especially with Dark Angels. Redemptors are the best flavor of Dreadnoughts other than the Forge World ones. And you'll need Intercessors most likely as your troops. Two Chaplains are never really necessary, but maybe with a bit of imagination and some kitbashing/green stuff skills you could turn one into a Captain or Librarian or something. So getting two of those boxes could make a decent little core for you. Personally, I might go with one DA box and one BA box for a little variety, and you can sell whichever upgrade sprues you don't end up using.

Thanks! It is a box which definitely had units I was already excited about, so it felt like a natural place to start.

I also want to order some additional staples so I ordered an extra box of regular and Assault Intercessors, Infiltrators, a few Primeris HQ choices, and Eradicators.

I genuinely want Terminators too, but the kit is so.... quaint, at its age. My Chaos Termies just look so much better, as do my wife's Death Guard ones.

well, if you end up playing Dark Angels, the Deathwing terminator kit is one of the best looking kits in the game. Even if yo don't make them as knights, you can still give the regular terminators robes.

I 100% want to, but they're sold out EVERYWHERE.

Oh, while I am asking, are any of the Forgeworld Dreads competitive these days?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I 100% want to, but they're sold out EVERYWHERE.

Oh, while I am asking, are any of the Forgeworld Dreads competitive these days?

From my gaming circle, the changes to FW Index and the Core keyword means that mainstream Redemptor Dreadnoughts are doing very well while Leviathans are seen less compared to a year ago. Contemptors are still good.

So I played a competitive 2k game vs DG with Morty which I lost.

Stubborn Defiance is good but can be a trap. I had a 10 man block of terminators which I designated as the obsec unit. Big mistake. As he just focused on my other units and eventually I felt the need to commit the termies which lost me points.

The only time I think I will take Stubborn Defiance is where I think the enemy has no way to artillery or get to my back objective.

Termies, Ancient and Apothecary was definitely very durable. Having a character with Reliquary of the Repentent relic to reduce Invul save was critical in helping bring down mortal along with aura removal.

Ezekiel is nice. I think I would go for Trephination to increase the mortal wounds output. So mortal would, obsec removal and aura removal.

 Smirrors wrote:
So I played a competitive 2k game vs DG with Morty which I lost.

Stubborn Defiance is good but can be a trap. I had a 10 man block of terminators which I designated as the obsec unit. Big mistake. As he just focused on my other units and eventually I felt the need to commit the termies which lost me points.

The only time I think I will take Stubborn Defiance is where I think the enemy has no way to artillery or get to my back objective.

Termies, Ancient and Apothecary was definitely very durable. Having a character with Reliquary of the Repentent relic to reduce Invul save was critical in helping bring down mortal along with aura removal.

Ezekiel is nice. I think I would go for Trephination to increase the mortal wounds output. So mortal would, obsec removal and aura removal.

A 5 termi unit is enough IMHO, in my game vs Sista this saturday, I even had my 5 termi unit leave the objective for turns 4 and 5, as my whirlwind was content on taking up the babysitting role (nothing my opponent had could go steal it).
10 termi cost a soul shattering fith of your amry points, anything short of bullying the midfield is not worth the 400 point investment (and even then, you do it only if you really need to, against DG you probably do, if only to block mortarion with them, giving them the -1 wound provided by the ancient's relic).

The fine print for Stubborn Defiance requires that you hold the objective with the same Obsec unit for the consecutive turns to get the points. You can’t use a Whirlwind, and even a different Obsec unit would restart the VP gain.

It can be a good Secondary, but it’s an investment and it paints a big target on the unit.

Yes you would IMO need at the minimum storm shield termies to sit there and only take that secondary if the enemy doesn't have ways to get their own obsec (either through troops or stuff like Rites of Battle) or deny obsec (like DA psychic power).

It will be important to know how enemies can deny it so you know when to pick it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 addnid wrote:

A 5 termi unit is enough IMHO, in my game vs Sista this saturday, I even had my 5 termi unit leave the objective for turns 4 and 5, as my whirlwind was content on taking up the babysitting role (nothing my opponent had could go steal it).

Stubborn defiance is heavily back ended so if you had left after start of turn 4, you would get max 9. For a casual game you can probably leave after 4 if you knew you were winning but in a competitive match you would probably stay the full 5 turns to max score. Also termies are pretty slow so once you commit to it you're unlikely to get them anywhere useful unless the enemy came to you.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The fine print for Stubborn Defiance requires that you hold the objective with the same Obsec unit for the consecutive turns to get the points. You can’t use a Whirlwind, and even a different Obsec unit would restart the VP gain.

It can be a good Secondary, but it’s an investment and it paints a big target on the unit.

Ah ok thanks for the clarification, you are right ! Well I could have just stayed with the termi unit on the objective, it really would have not changed that game at all. I still maintain that with 2 or 3 units of servitors (only 30 points each) and one 5 termi combat squad with 2 cyclone missiles, you can quite easily stay on the objective and screen for DSing enemy unbits. No need for a full 10 termi squad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey on a totally different topic , on art of war they call the DA list the guy is presenting "The Fun Sponge". Because it sucks the fun out of the game.

What do you all think ? I feel to partial (I can finally play all my DW termis yeah !!) so I would like some less partial intake on this
Is it fun to play against such bullet sponge armies (I guess DG is also a bullet sponge army, so perhaps Sponginess is a hot topic right now)

here is the link if anyone needs
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2021/03/01/aow-ep-80-1-will-dark-angels-take-over-the-meta/

So I pulled the trigger on a Covid stimulus sized Marine army, and as I said earlier, will probably want to run them as Dark Angels. To that end... which books do I need? Obviously the DA Codex, but is it treated like a supplement? Can I also use options from the Space Marine Codex since it was a 9th Ed book for DA as well?


Can I, for example take an upgraded Apothecary for the "return dead models" Selfless Healer thing?

 Smirrors wrote:
Having a character with Reliquary of the Repentent relic to reduce Invul save was critical in helping bring down mortal along with aura removal.

Not sure if you meant that removing Morty's aura helped to take him down, but do know that Morty only has one aura, and its one of his 3 warlord traights. Neither the -1 Toughness, nor the specialist plague company contagion are aura abilities, so Ezekial can't do anything to them. So not sure if removing aura abilities actually do much to help remove Morty.

Hope this is the right place for this.

I've been out of 40K since probably the end of 5th ed. I'm kicking around getting back in the game.

I've wanted to make a bike heavy SM army for close to 20 years, but I've always been put off by the God-awful GW SM bike models. I found a really cool model to use, so my motivation is rather high now.

I had originally thought of going with White Scars since they're the proto-type of bike-heavy SM armies. But now that the new Dark Angels book is out, Ravenwing might be an option, too.

So, would anyone have suggestions for a bike heavy Ravenwing army? It's unfortunate that bikes still can't be taken as troops, which I think is dumb, but what can I do? I know that Outriders and Black Knights are really good. I assume I'd also want some regular bikers to pad the number on the field. Talonmasters aren't bikes, but they're good, and I want bike-heavy, not nothing-but-bikes. Bike Apothecaries and Bike Chaplain seem like an auto-include. Captain or Samael?

It's been so long since I played 40K (more than 10 years) that I don't know where to begin in building a list anymore.

Any help that could be offered would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

@Saldiven, While bikes aren't troops the new book does let you build Outrider detachments that both refund the CP cost, and make bikes Obsec. For all intents and purposes, they are troops and you can build almost exclusively bike lists.

Saldiven wrote:
Hope this is the right place for this.

I've been out of 40K since probably the end of 5th ed. I'm kicking around getting back in the game.

I've wanted to make a bike heavy SM army for close to 20 years, but I've always been put off by the God-awful GW SM bike models. I found a really cool model to use, so my motivation is rather high now.

I had originally thought of going with White Scars since they're the proto-type of bike-heavy SM armies. But now that the new Dark Angels book is out, Ravenwing might be an option, too.

So, would anyone have suggestions for a bike heavy Ravenwing army? It's unfortunate that bikes still can't be taken as troops, which I think is dumb, but what can I do? I know that Outriders and Black Knights are really good. I assume I'd also want some regular bikers to pad the number on the field. Talonmasters aren't bikes, but they're good, and I want bike-heavy, not nothing-but-bikes. Bike Apothecaries and Bike Chaplain seem like an auto-include. Captain or Samael?

It's been so long since I played 40K (more than 10 years) that I don't know where to begin in building a list anymore.

Any help that could be offered would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

In a 2000 point game, you can include up to 3 detachments. One of the detachments you can use is an outrider detachment, that costs 3 Command Points to take, with a 1 HQ and 3 Fast Attack requirement. The Dark Angel codex has a rule where if you bring one of these outrider detachments, and every model has the ravenwing keyword, then Bikers/outriders get Objective secured (essentially making them troops as the above poster said) and you even refund the cost for the command points if your warlord is in this detachment. So yes, it is very possible to make a bike heavy/all bike army, and you dont need to bring any normal troops at all!

Attack bikes are kindof hot business right now, so if you can find a way for a few of those to fit into the list with multi meltas, you will be feeling good. Otherwise you are right about captain/chaplain on bike, either are good choices IMO. I honestly dont think you will go terribly wrong no matter what you do, the codex seems to have a lot of good options. Just know all the landspeeders (except talon master) are very easily killed.

Interesting; thanks for the information. My FLGS has been having some issues with getting stock in from GW (including codices for DA and SM) despite being one of the largest GW retailers in the Southeast USA. So, I haven't been able to dig over the actual rules, but just examining stuff I can find online in reviews, etc. I feel like I'm trying to build a list blind, but I want to have a decent list in mind before I start laying out money for models.

Thanks a lot for the help.

Hey guys. I'm like Saldiven, but my break was only from around the end of 8th.

I'm Primaris only since that's what I started with and want to stick with that. However, my friend thinks I should use a different chapter since I don't plan to buy Terminators or Black Knights (I'm also now painting my DA in the OG legion colors). I don't hate Firstborn or anything, it's just the size difference in a single force really bothers me. I've gone back and forth on Chapters before, but am really wanting to settle on just one so I can stop stripping things and actually put transfers on and actually base my minis.

However, the seed of doubt has been planted and I'm wondering if my growing Primaris army would be better suited with different chapter tactics? I'm just asking before I decide to buy some Nephilim Jetfighters since those flyers are gorgeous and they don't have the scale issues the Firstborn infantry have with the rest of my army.

 Kelligula wrote:
Hey guys. I'm like Saldiven, but my break was only from around the end of 8th.

I'm Primaris only since that's what I started with and want to stick with that. However, my friend thinks I should use a different chapter since I don't plan to buy Terminators or Black Knights (I'm also now painting my DA in the OG legion colors). I don't hate Firstborn or anything, it's just the size difference in a single force really bothers me. I've gone back and forth on Chapters before, but am really wanting to settle on just one so I can stop stripping things and actually put transfers on and actually base my minis.

However, the seed of doubt has been planted and I'm wondering if my growing Primaris army would be better suited with different chapter tactics? I'm just asking before I decide to buy some Nephilim Jetfighters since those flyers are gorgeous and they don't have the scale issues the Firstborn infantry have with the rest of my army.

You can certainly play effective Primaris Dark Angels with Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors, Outriders and Bladeguard. Our best characters are “Old Marines”, but Azrael works just fine with Primaris.