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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thatevilone/lunar-auxilia/description

Thought this one looked pretty cool.

The LUNAR AUXILIA is a Kickstarter representing an oft overlooked aspect to Science Fantasy settings. Almost universally the forces of evil are depicted as an unruly mob, ill equipped and without discipline. But why? Why can't the bad guys not only have solid provisions but also a high degree of training and skill? Enter the Lunar Auxilia.

There's command, characters, infantry, vehicles and aircraft!

I've always wanted Blood Pact-esque renegade guard, which look less like cultists, and more like a regimented force that can pose an actual danger to an opposing army in the field, rather than relying on small actions.

Those are nice, but some of those design elements strike excessively close to the GW design language. Not going to be shocked when if this gets C&D'd.

Yeah, I like them, but the guns particularly are more or less identical to GW's designs

So are plenty of third party bitz weapons, yet they remain on sale and GW have miraculously failed to collapse, so I think everyone should be fine. IP concern trolling someone's crowdfunder is not cool.

Also "design language" is not a thing you can(legitimately) C&D over - you can copywrite specific designs, and you can trademark particular words and icons(within reason); you can't just say "that kinda looks similar to something I did: LAWYERS, ASSEMBLE!". If you could, GW and 40K wouldn't exist, because they would have been sued out of existence by 2000AD, the Herbert and Tolkien estates, and many others before they made it to 1990.

Come on Yodhrin, do you really thing either Billicus or I are "trolling" just because we commented on similar design aesthetic?

Can't bloody say anything anymore without being decried as a "troll"...


I'm not going to debate IP law with you, because frankly, I don't know enough of the finer points to argue competently. And I also can't be bothered. I've seen you argue this bs with other people before and you're just a drainer.

Ugh, yeah, the most likely grounds would be something along the lines of resemblance that could be mistaken for GW and thereby drain their sales.

The chaos stars are awfully GW-y, but yeah, none of us are well-acquainted enough to say anything with even vague certainty.

I feel like a few details miss the mark but over all I quite like the look as a, umm, whatever we're calling these... Let's go with "compatible aesthetic."

The campaign has already raked in more than 10 times the target amount, so I don't think it's doing any harm to point out that they're just Solar Auxilia with fur collars and the occasional star punched on. Not that they /look/ like Solar Auxilia; they are.

Whether technically legal or not, it's pretty dubious behaviour, regardless of the fact that the only victim, if there even if one, is a company as large and successful as GW

The creator's previous campaign was GW Skaven transplanted into 40K as Genestealer Cults, but at least combining the two things made them a unique product that neither of the existing lines could accomplish. I'm not about to run off and dob them in to Papa GeeDubs, but I don't think this is the kind of thing that you can support without admitting that it's ethically questionable at best.

A poor man's copy of the Solar Auxilia range, some of the elements and cues are present, but rather simplified, with a lot of the more interesting details such as the piping, gauges and back mounted life support systems missing.

Interesting however to see them do something Forge World will never add to their online store: Veletaris squad with rotor cannons.

The vehicles.. most are quite blatant in what they are copying, others are more generic, like the not-Arvus. At least the not-Russ tank pattern comes with a not-multi-laser in the hull-mount and on the pintle.

 Yodhrin wrote:
IP concern trolling someone's crowdfunder is not cool.

Whereas randomly calling other posters trolls is the coolest of cool things to do. And I don't even care about the IP angle, I just think it's lazy and telling of a lack of talent to just copy another company's designs verbatim. Those guns ARE volkite calivers, they've no right to use them in their range.

And ffs, if being a "crowdfunder" puts them above criticism that's really very useful for the big established companies that use it so I'm sure CMON etc will be thrilled to hear you say it

Yes, concern trolling is a thing, and it comes up in almost every GW-adjacent thread from people unable to separate their own personal and entirely arbitrary positions on what is and isn't allowed "copying" from the actual law and how it works. Sadly, that now evidently includes some of the mods.

And being a crowdfunder doesn't put them above criticism, but there's a difference between "I think this is quite derivative" and "this is probably illegal and will probably get C&Ds, just saying bruh" sentiment which will so obviously have the outcome of dissuading some people from backing that I struggle to believe that isn't the exact intent of the people saying it, especially since the ones posting this stuff don't seem to have the same burning need to post such things in threads for "big established companies" who's entire present catalogue is based on a legacy of wholesale copying. Like, you know, GW - and not even with any subtlety mind, they just outright started using minis they'd made under license from other IPs in their own systems back in the day.

As for the notion these are "just Solar Aux with the serial numbers filed off", with zero creativity involved? Nonsense. And surely at least you must know it's nonsense, BrookM, given you even list multiple differences right there in your petty attempt to denigrate them.

Different iconography, different helmet designs, different detailing, lacking some of the major identifying details of SolarAux like the backpacks - at this point, what you're essentially arguing is that GW own the idea of a retrofuturistic armoured space suit, which is just farce. Or do you guys genuinely believe GW came up with that idea? Is the kool-aid that tasty?

EDIT: Oh, and I trust I'll see you all over in the Shieldwolf thread expressing the same concerns about their upcoming not-Tallarn kickstarter, since you're all of such high moral principle.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Different iconography, different helmet designs, different detailing, lacking some of the major identifying details of SolarAux like the backpacks - at this point, what you're essentially arguing is that GW own the idea of a retrofuturistic armoured space suit, which is just farce. Or do you guys genuinely believe GW came up with that idea? Is the kool-aid that tasty?

I quite like these infantry, and am debating backing, but it feels like a bad faith argument to say that these "Lunar Auxila" aren't meant to be derivative of the Forgeworld "Solar Auxila" models. I'm not taking away the work or creativity involved to make these models, but its disingenuous to argue that they are "generic retrofuturistic armored space suit troopers" when a majority of vehicles and weapons are clearly meant to visually stand in for specific vehicles and models in a fictional force and universe that is owned by Games Workshop.

Are they distinct enough visually to be legally in the clear as far as copywright law goes? Almost certainly.
Are they highly derivative of specific Forge World and GW models? Also almost certainly.

Calling out the mods, calling other posters trolls, saying they've drunk the kool aid, making the "it's okay to rip off GW wholesale because they used common fantasy tropes in their work" argument, this is all just really lovely stuff, thanks so much

Yeah, I have no love for GW and don't expect it will hurt them at all, but it's still very derivative and not really ethical. IDK, the project is not without merit, but it's also kinda what IP law is for, if GW does pursue it. If they got C&D'd, it wouldn't be a shock.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I quite like these infantry, and am debating backing, but it feels like a bad faith argument to say that these "Lunar Auxila" aren't meant to be derivative of the Forgeworld "Solar Auxila" models. I'm not taking away the work or creativity involved to make these models, but its disingenuous to argue that they are "generic retrofuturistic armored space suit troopers" when a majority of vehicles and weapons are clearly meant to visually stand in for specific vehicles and models in a fictional force and universe that is owned by Games Workshop.

Well yeah, obviously a lot of minis sell because of their compatibility with one of the largest wargaming rulesets. Just like a lot of phone cases sell because they fit Apple products. Neither of those should be the source of faux-moral umbrage.

As pointed out there's not this level of concern trolling when Anvil, or Artel W or Shieldwolf post updates. And Anvil Industry makes some of the best Sisters and primaris stand-ins on the market.

Also given they are Chaos themed I thought the Lunar would have been in reference to Horus and his Luna Wolves, also heavily moon themed.

Billicus wrote:
Calling out the mods, calling other posters trolls, saying they've drunk the kool aid, making the "it's okay to rip off GW wholesale because they used common fantasy tropes in their work" argument, this is all just really lovely stuff, thanks so much

Well I sure hope nobody has a gun to your head forcing you to post in this thread Billicus. It's a big website, maybe you can fret over someone else's project?

Please do not insult other posters like that

You know, if you don't like it for whatever reason, you don't have to say anything.

Literally the first thing I said was I like them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ swap out the guns for something less blatant and ditch the tanks, and we can do business


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScarletRose wrote:
Bilecus

Oh man you're so funny, my sides

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Different iconography, different helmet designs, different detailing, lacking some of the major identifying details of SolarAux like the backpacks - at this point, what you're essentially arguing is that GW own the idea of a retrofuturistic armoured space suit, which is just farce. Or do you guys genuinely believe GW came up with that idea? Is the kool-aid that tasty?

I quite like these infantry, and am debating backing, but it feels like a bad faith argument to say that these "Lunar Auxila" aren't meant to be derivative of the Forgeworld "Solar Auxila" models. I'm not taking away the work or creativity involved to make these models, but its disingenuous to argue that they are "generic retrofuturistic armored space suit troopers" when a majority of vehicles and weapons are clearly meant to visually stand in for specific vehicles and models in a fictional force and universe that is owned by Games Workshop.

Are they distinct enough visually to be legally in the clear as far as copywright law goes? Almost certainly.
Are they highly derivative of specific Forge World and GW models? Also almost certainly.

As if Felix and Gotrk aren’t exact copies of Fafrd and the Grey Mouser...

Like Solar Auxilia, but with added shoulder fur and tilt shields...

... now what does that feel familiar?