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Kabalites are +1A - does this bode well for the fighty units (Incubi going up already)? They also go from 5+ to 4+ armor.

Splinter Cannon went from RF3 S- AP- D1 Poison to H3 S3 AP -1 D2 Poison

The splinter cannon loses shots, but they're far more useful. The damage leans towards the new version, because of the AP1 and because it acts like RF in half range all of the time when shooting W2+ stuff.

We should bring back the blurb from the Inubi reveal --

The stabbiest of the Aeldari are about to get stabbier. Their new rules allow you to take the realspace raiding force you’ve dreamed of without being penalised in Command point cost. Want to run a pure Wych cult? You can do that. Have an urge to mix up Kabals with Haemonculi Covens? Do it! The book also introduces new Crusade rules that allow you to expand your influence and become a feared crime lord of Commorragh.

What else does DE need to be competitive?

seems like poison is unchanged? Unless its not a flat to-wound to everything.

Splinter cannons getting bonus AP is huge.
Phoenix rising custom kabal obsessions now make a bit more sense if GW is intending for them to get into melee now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Kabalites are +1A - does this bode well for the fighty units (Incubi going up already)? They also go from 5+ to 4+ armor.

Splinter Cannon went from RF3 S- AP- D1 Poison to H3 S3 AP -1 D2 Poison

The splinter cannon loses shots, but they're far more useful. The damage leans towards the new version, because of the AP1 and because it acts like RF in half range all of the time when shooting W2+ stuff.

We should bring back the blurb from the Inubi reveal --

The stabbiest of the Aeldari are about to get stabbier. Their new rules allow you to take the realspace raiding force you’ve dreamed of without being penalised in Command point cost. Want to run a pure Wych cult? You can do that. Have an urge to mix up Kabals with Haemonculi Covens? Do it! The book also introduces new Crusade rules that allow you to expand your influence and become a feared crime lord of Commorragh.

What else does DE need to be competitive?

The 4+ save is probably the biggest upgrade. Not that it matters that much because kabals are usually in a venom anyways. The changes to the venom are pretty nice cause they can take 2 SC. AP-1 and 2 damage will kill marines quickly ESP as flayed skull with ignore cover.

Competitive DE needs to be able to take their whole codex in a single detachment IMO. It is just stupid they are treated like 3 separate armies. Also in regards to incubi - they need invune saves...

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
seems like poison is unchanged? Unless its not a flat to-wound to everything.

Splinter cannons getting bonus AP is huge.
Phoenix rising custom kabal obsessions now make a bit more sense if GW is intending for them to get into melee now.

Yea, 4+ still.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

What else does DE need to be competitive?

1) actual weapon choices. If you filter out the weapon options drukhari have that are just "poison 4+ shots or hits with various numbers of attacks and ranges" and "the dark lance profile, with various numbers of attacks and ranges" you've removed like 75% of their weapon options.

That's the only light in which i see the potential for something useful coming from the new SC - it's a poison weapon with AP and a damage stat. The bad of the change is...as the current rules stand, it's just kind of a bad heavy bolter. Which brings me to #2:

2) something to actually compensate for the drawbacks of poison 4+. basically everything in the codex pays for this rule, and most of the time if you compare it to a basic S4 weapon, a poison weapon is usually either equal or worse. T5+ targets typically have 3+ or 2+ saves making poison weaponry inefficient against them despite what is essentially a +1 to wound roll.

The quintessential drukhari problem is that they have tons of choices for bizarre, unusual, situations like "you have a target that's T5 or lower, with tons of wounds, a crazy high armor save and no invuln save - hooray, you finally get to make good use of your Heat Lance!" or "you have a target with super high toughness but very low save - poison weapons to the rescue!" and almost none for super common situations like basic cheap GEQ and T8 vehicles.

There's plenty of weapons that are currently doing almost nothing at all that GW could rework into neat, viable fillers for the holes in the drukhari weapon roster.

I would put forth for consideration:

-Heat Lances
-Shredders
-Talos weapons that aren't the basic cleaver
-The cronos, and his whole situation
-Archite Glaives
-Every Haemonculus (sorry, probably Acothyst only now ) melee weapon option that isn't an EC whip
-Everything a hellion has and does
-Cluster caltrops

All these are weapons GW could do basically anything they wanted with and nothing of value would be lost.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
seems like poison is unchanged? Unless its not a flat to-wound to everything.

Splinter cannons getting bonus AP is huge.
Phoenix rising custom kabal obsessions now make a bit more sense if GW is intending for them to get into melee now.

I doubt any of that will be valid anymore. It would have to be reprinted in the new codex. Personally - I hope they scrap everything in that trash PA book and come up with some real decent rules.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Competitive DE needs to be able to take their whole codex in a single detachment IMO. It is just stupid they are treated like 3 separate armies. Also in regards to incubi - they need invune saves...

This has been a known change since they first announced the codex. And right now, they have the best support for taking multiple detachments (the raiding party rule). As much as it sucks to have the army split in 3, thats the least of our troubles right now.

Incubi don't need invulns IMO, not everything does in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Phoenix rising custom kabal obsessions now make a bit more sense if GW is intending for them to get into melee now.

I doubt any of that will be valid anymore. It would have to be reprinted in the new codex. Personally - I hope they scrap everything in that trash PA book and come up with some real decent rules.

yeah but it does indicate a certain shift in what roles GW sees each subfactions in. kabals probably won't be the exclusively shooty faction anymore.

Also I will bet anyone right now, I will commit to paypalling you twenty dollars or whatever the equivalent in British Doubloons or Canadian Scratch and Sniff Monopoly Dollars, that GW's approach to allowing you to mix kabals, wyches and covens is just to allow you to take them as Mercenary units with no subfaction tactics.

"you can take your whole codex in the same detachment again! Yaaaay! You just have to fight your buddy's space marines with their 7 army wide rules with your no army wide rules! "

 Xenomancers wrote:

Competitive DE needs to be able to take their whole codex in a single detachment IMO. It is just stupid they are treated like 3 separate armies.

That seems to be the case from the earlier reveal. I'd wager allowing you to take a cabal and a cult in the same detachment and not break it. That or they can take 3 patrols with no CP loss or did they FAQ that already? I forget.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Competitive DE needs to be able to take their whole codex in a single detachment IMO. It is just stupid they are treated like 3 separate armies.

That seems to be the case from the earlier reveal. I'd wager allowing you to take a cabal and a cult in the same detachment and not break it. That or they can take 3 patrols with no CP loss or did they FAQ that already? I forget.

The 8th edition codex has always had the "raiding party" rule, and its actually the only rule that got better with the advent of 9th.

the_scotsman wrote:
Also I will bet anyone right now, I will commit to paypalling you twenty dollars or whatever the equivalent in British Doubloons or Canadian Scratch and Sniff Monopoly Dollars, that GW's approach to allowing you to mix kabals, wyches and covens is just to allow you to take them as Mercenary units with no subfaction tactics.

"you can take your whole codex in the same detachment again! Yaaaay! You just have to fight your buddy's space marines with their 7 army wide rules with your no army wide rules! "

Bah humbug.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
The 8th edition codex has always had the "raiding party" rule, and its actually the only rule that got better with the advent of 9th.

Oh, right. So the old rule stays and effectively made patrols free. Got it.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Competitive DE needs to be able to take their whole codex in a single detachment IMO. It is just stupid they are treated like 3 separate armies. Also in regards to incubi - they need invune saves...

This has been a known change since they first announced the codex. And right now, they have the best support for taking multiple detachments (the raiding party rule). As much as it sucks to have the army split in 3, thats the least of our troubles right now.

Incubi don't need invulns IMO, not everything does in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Phoenix rising custom kabal obsessions now make a bit more sense if GW is intending for them to get into melee now.

I doubt any of that will be valid anymore. It would have to be reprinted in the new codex. Personally - I hope they scrap everything in that trash PA book and come up with some real decent rules.

yeah but it does indicate a certain shift in what roles GW sees each subfactions in. kabals probably won't be the exclusively shooty faction anymore.

That will be a welcome change.

The issue with incubi is - in a DE army if you are taking incubi as your answer to melee...There is just no chance they win against anything tough and they die so easy in return. This is why invune saves are dumb because at some level everything needs an invune to compete.

I would love for kabals to get something else to make use of that A2 profile. Maybe a knife upgrade on the unit for ap-1 attacks or poison attacks in melee.

the_scotsman wrote:


I would put forth for consideration:

-Heat Lances
-Shredders
-Talos weapons that aren't the basic cleaver
-The cronos, and his whole situation
-Archite Glaives
-Every Haemonculus (sorry, probably Acothyst only now ) melee weapon option that isn't an EC whip
-Everything a hellion has and does
-Cluster caltrops

All these are weapons GW could do basically anything they wanted with and nothing of value would be lost.

They seem to be willing to rework weapons so i'll cross my fingers for you.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Also I will bet anyone right now, I will commit to paypalling you twenty dollars or whatever the equivalent in British Doubloons or Canadian Scratch and Sniff Monopoly Dollars, that GW's approach to allowing you to mix kabals, wyches and covens is just to allow you to take them as Mercenary units with no subfaction tactics.

"you can take your whole codex in the same detachment again! Yaaaay! You just have to fight your buddy's space marines with their 7 army wide rules with your no army wide rules! "

Bah humbug.

is that you taking that bet? Lot you can buy with 20 bucks these days - half an intercessor, six hours of rent, permission to continue to use the electronic gadgets you've purchased for another two weeks, a mcdonalds hamburger...

the_scotsman wrote:
is that you taking that bet? Lot you can buy with 20 bucks these days - half an intercessor, six hours of rent, permission to continue to use the electronic gadgets you've purchased for another two weeks, a mcdonalds hamburger...

I don't want to lose my, uhh, you to lose your money. I hope you'll otherwise be pleasantly surprised.

the_scotsman wrote:
Also I will bet anyone right now, I will commit to paypalling you twenty dollars or whatever the equivalent in British Doubloons or Canadian Scratch and Sniff Monopoly Dollars, that GW's approach to allowing you to mix kabals, wyches and covens is just to allow you to take them as Mercenary units with no subfaction tactics.

"you can take your whole codex in the same detachment again! Yaaaay! You just have to fight your buddy's space marines with their 7 army wide rules with your no army wide rules! "

De are pretty heavy on the free army wide rules honestly. Power from pain is massive 5 free rules. Flayed skull gives most your army rr's 1 and ignore cover.

If they get something like DE's version of contagions...They could do really well.

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Also I will bet anyone right now, I will commit to paypalling you twenty dollars or whatever the equivalent in British Doubloons or Canadian Scratch and Sniff Monopoly Dollars, that GW's approach to allowing you to mix kabals, wyches and covens is just to allow you to take them as Mercenary units with no subfaction tactics.

"you can take your whole codex in the same detachment again! Yaaaay! You just have to fight your buddy's space marines with their 7 army wide rules with your no army wide rules! "

De are pretty heavy on the free army wide rules honestly. Power from pain is massive 5 free rules. Flayed skull gives most your army rr's 1 and ignore cover.

Yeah but flayed skull is a "chapter tactic" so its kind of expected to give a bigger bonus.

Power from pain and combat drugs are the free "army wide"-ish rules.

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Also I will bet anyone right now, I will commit to paypalling you twenty dollars or whatever the equivalent in British Doubloons or Canadian Scratch and Sniff Monopoly Dollars, that GW's approach to allowing you to mix kabals, wyches and covens is just to allow you to take them as Mercenary units with no subfaction tactics.

"you can take your whole codex in the same detachment again! Yaaaay! You just have to fight your buddy's space marines with their 7 army wide rules with your no army wide rules! "

De are pretty heavy on the free army wide rules honestly. Power from pain is massive 5 free rules. Flayed skull gives most your army rr's 1 and ignore cover.

If they get something like DE's version of contagions...They could do really well.

Nope, I'm not talking about our equivalent to, let me see if I can keep track at this point...

-ability to split 1 max size infantry unit into 2 half size units
-immunity to modifiers to attrition tests
-+1 attack on the charge
-basic rapid fire weaponry working out to full range if you stand still

I'm talking about subfaction tactics. If I can take a Wych Cult unit and a Kabalite unit in the same detachment and they both get some form of subfaction tactics, whether they redesign those in some way or not, doesn't matter, I'll give you 20$.

If I can take a wych cult unit and a kabalite unit in the same detachment but only one of them gets subfaction tactics and the other doesn't, you give me 20$.

Deal?

Come on, you know this is how it's gonna work, you know they're going to take away Raiding Party and 'compensate' for it by allowing you to take Tactics-less wych units in kabal detachments with zero synergies with any unit and no reason to ever be considered, and you know they're going to announce it with a giant fanfare and "YOURE WELCOME DRUKHARI FANS, ASKED AND ANSWERED!"

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Also I will bet anyone right now, I will commit to paypalling you twenty dollars or whatever the equivalent in British Doubloons or Canadian Scratch and Sniff Monopoly Dollars, that GW's approach to allowing you to mix kabals, wyches and covens is just to allow you to take them as Mercenary units with no subfaction tactics.

"you can take your whole codex in the same detachment again! Yaaaay! You just have to fight your buddy's space marines with their 7 army wide rules with your no army wide rules! "

De are pretty heavy on the free army wide rules honestly. Power from pain is massive 5 free rules. Flayed skull gives most your army rr's 1 and ignore cover.

If they get something like DE's version of contagions...They could do really well.

Nope, I'm not talking about our equivalent to, let me see if I can keep track at this point...

-ability to split 1 max size infantry unit into 2 half size units
-immunity to modifiers to attrition tests
-+1 attack on the charge
-basic rapid fire weaponry working out to full range if you stand still

I'm talking about subfaction tactics. If I can take a Wych Cult unit and a Kabalite unit in the same detachment and they both get some form of subfaction tactics, whether they redesign those in some way or not, doesn't matter, I'll give you 20$.

If I can take a wych cult unit and a kabalite unit in the same detachment but only one of them gets subfaction tactics and the other doesn't, you give me 20$.

Deal?

Come on, you know this is how it's gonna work, you know they're going to take away Raiding Party and 'compensate' for it by allowing you to take Tactics-less wych units in kabal detachments with zero synergies with any unit and no reason to ever be considered, and you know they're going to announce it with a giant fanfare and "YOURE WELCOME DRUKHARI FANS, ASKED AND ANSWERED!"

Hummm - I'd be a fool to bet here cause there is literally no telling what GW is gonna do. It would be pretty effing useless to be able to take all the units in 1 detachment but not get the special rules for each...I could see them going this route though....Each kabal/cult/coven have preferred allies. If you take the kabal/cult/coven combo they prefer they get all their rules.

Part of the point of Kalabites is they had absolutely gakky armor and that they relied on fast transports to make up for it as they fire away, so who the hell decided they needed a 4+?

It does definataly reduce the design space for a number of other factions who have always had better armour than or equivalent armour to Kabalites.

I do think that how poison interacts with keywords is going to be key as I can see it being sub par 80% of the time and OP as feth the remaining times.

But sadly that seems to be the way GW is going with lots more rock paper scissors instead of actually balance.

Kabalites never made sense having a 5+ armour when they were wearing full sci-fi advanced elvish armour.

GW writes rules to get players to go "oh cool! I need to start a new army!".
It works, I know several people that buy practically every new shiny they see, and not because they're overflowing with money.

Personally I wish they'd focus on fun, balanced, and elegant rules.
But for most of the playerbase (or at least the player base's purchasing power) this isn't that important. They want cool rules and cool models.

 Galas wrote:
Kabalites never made sense having a 5+ armour when they were wearing full sci-fi advanced elvish armour.

So do we now get 4+ Sv Guardians?
Do Dire avengers now come with a 3+ Sv?

Guard with a 4+ army wide as they were 5+ Save too.

Do firewarriors get a 3+ or are they just supposed to accept getting worse while being more point's per model?

Ice_can wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Kabalites never made sense having a 5+ armour when they were wearing full sci-fi advanced elvish armour.

So do we now get 4+ Sv Guardians?
Do Dire avengers now come with a 3+ Sv?

Guard with a 4+ army wide as they were 5+ Save too.

Do firewarriors get a 3+ or are they just supposed to accept getting worse while being more point's per model?

Probably eldar guardians should have also a 4+ save yes, and Dire Avengers with 3+saves look fine to me.

Imperial guard... nah. They are perfectly fine with 5+. A cadian with a 5+ compared with an eldar guardian or a kabalite with also a 5+ always looked silly. Tau Firewarriors with a 4+ save are perfectly fine, and I say this as a tau player with 60 of those.

"you can take your whole codex in the same detachment again! Yaaaay! You just have to fight your buddy's space marines with their 7 army wide rules with your no army wide rules! "

Considering we already know that's how Demons and DG work, anyone who takes that bet is a fool!

I realize it's not EXACTLY the same thing, but I'd be surprised if it didn't work out that way.

Ice_can wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Kabalites never made sense having a 5+ armour when they were wearing full sci-fi advanced elvish armour.

So do we now get 4+ Sv Guardians?
Do Dire avengers now come with a 3+ Sv?

Guard with a 4+ army wide as they were 5+ Save too.

Do firewarriors get a 3+ or are they just supposed to accept getting worse while being more point's per model?

I think it is likely. Units needs to survive to score and we're trending this direction.

 Galas wrote:

Probably eldar guardians should have also a 4+ save yes, and Dire Avengers with 3+saves look fine to me.

Imperial guard... nah. They are perfectly fine with 5+. A cadian with a 5+ compared with an eldar guardian or a kabalite with also a 5+ always looked silly. Tau Firewarriors with a 4+ save are perfectly fine, and I say this as a tau player with 60 of those.

You realise that Kabalites are 8ppm to fire warriors 9ppm and they are defo not fine compaired to any 9th edition codex's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I think it is likely. Units needs to survive to score and we're trending this direction.

Just yet more evidence that slow rolling codex's for over 18 months is going to leave the last faction to get a codex as ever increasingly unplayable trash.

Wow! Our advanced Splinter Cannons have been upgraded to . . . Heavy Bolters.

Except worse against vehicles.

And also worse against any non-vehicles with T4 or less.

It should say something about how dismal Dark Eldar weapons are that people are legitimately considering this to be an upgrade.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Part of the point of Kalabites is they had absolutely gakky armor and that they relied on fast transports to make up for it as they fire away, so who the hell decided they needed a 4+?

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

Ice_can wrote:
Just yet more evidence that slow rolling codex's for over 18 months is going to leave the last faction to get a codex as ever increasingly unplayable trash.

And we need to hear it every few days of these 18 months because the past few months weren't enough already.

At some point you have to let go.