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 vipoid wrote:
It's a little odd that our premier duellist seems to now excel at chaff-clearing, but I guess SM characters aren't allowed to be threatened by lowly Xeno scum.

Definitely by design.

Hecaton wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
It's a little odd that our premier duellist seems to now excel at chaff-clearing, but I guess SM characters aren't allowed to be threatened by lowly Xeno scum.

Definitely by design.

You mean a duelist strictly in an arena where they're choosing the rules isn't exactly fantastic on the battlefield?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
It's a little odd that our premier duellist seems to now excel at chaff-clearing, but I guess SM characters aren't allowed to be threatened by lowly Xeno scum.

Definitely by design.

You mean a duelist strictly in an arena where they're choosing the rules isn't exactly fantastic on the battlefield?

I mean... Lelith fights off bigger stuff than what most Intercessor sergeants do in that arena. And Drukhari arent known for their strict rules either.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
It's a little odd that our premier duellist seems to now excel at chaff-clearing, but I guess SM characters aren't allowed to be threatened by lowly Xeno scum.

Definitely by design.

You mean a duelist strictly in an arena where they're choosing the rules isn't exactly fantastic on the battlefield?

I don't think Commorragh arena's compare to something scripted like WWE.
Remember that the ones watching really don't care who is dying in the arena floor. Its the agony and spectacle that counts, they have no regard for their fellow DE.

Lilith really is supposed to be one of the deadliest combatants in 40k

Hecaton wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
It's a little odd that our premier duellist seems to now excel at chaff-clearing, but I guess SM characters aren't allowed to be threatened by lowly Xeno scum.

Definitely by design.

((8 * .167) + (8 * .833)) * .5 * .833 = 3.33 x 2 = 6.7 // ignoring if she still can reroll her own 1s still and assuming cult of strife still gives +1A

She kills 3 to 4 primaris each turn. Her double fight applies in the opponent's phase as well. With a little luck she'll kill a 5 man in one go. Surviving is a different matter though.

As you choose the Natural Perfection ability in your Command Phase, and it says "In the Fight Phase of this turn", I'm pretty sure it doesn't work on your opponent's Fight Phase, as it's not "this turn" but your opponents.

So since her second attack happens at he end of the attack phase, does that mean she can attack the chaff screen, and if she kills them all, consolidate into the HQ they were screening and hit them with next attack?

PenitentJake wrote:
So since her second attack happens at he end of the attack phase, does that mean she can attack the chaff screen, and if she kills them all, consolidate into the HQ they were screening and hit them with next attack?

Only if you can consolidate in to another combat.

PenitentJake wrote:
So since her second attack happens at he end of the attack phase, does that mean she can attack the chaff screen, and if she kills them all, consolidate into the HQ they were screening and hit them with next attack?

maybe?

If she charged then no. Because you can only attack what you declared as a charge target and you need to reach all units you declare a charge against so that doesn't add up, so would need to reach the HQ with the initial charge and then there is no need to clear a chaff screen.

If she didn't charge and is not within 1" of anyone can she be chosen as a valid target to fight with? Does the "you can fight again" overwrite the normal requirements to be allowed to fight? (in engagement range) Not sure what the rules are on that.

If she didn't charge and managed to reach the HQ with her consolidate move after the first combat then 100% yes.

That sounds about right.

Curious to see interactions between her and Obsessions, strats, and PfP too. They might help her pull it off.

The suspense really is getting overwhelming. I really want this dex... Like yesterday!

Ugh... Str4 1Dmg attacks... Gross....

This is going pretty much like expected. No wonder they don't want to show this pile of crap off.

Lelith gets knives that hit like Power Swords and three more attacks on her basic profile and the response is:

 Argive wrote:
Ugh... Str4 1Dmg attacks... Gross....

This is going pretty much like expected. No wonder they don't want to show this pile of crap off.

Don't change Dakka. Never change

 alextroy wrote:
Lelith gets knives that hit like Power Swords and three more attacks on her basic profile and the response is:

 Argive wrote:
Ugh... Str4 1Dmg attacks... Gross....

This is going pretty much like expected. No wonder they don't want to show this pile of crap off.

Don't change Dakka. Never change

So what ? She can chop up some guardsmen? Wow.... Fabtastic... *clap clap*
The amount of attacks is more or less on par with previous rules..

Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

With her rule, you will have to either get her close enough so she can attack twice, and doesn't need to advance or most likely will advance and only fight once. Meaning she cant reliably even blend a unit of chaff in reality if she only fights once.

But sure. Snark away my dude..

 Denegaar wrote:
As you choose the Natural Perfection ability in your Command Phase, and it says "In the Fight Phase of this turn", I'm pretty sure it doesn't work on your opponent's Fight Phase, as it's not "this turn" but your opponents.

Ah crap. My bad. Thanks.

 Argive wrote:

So what ? She can chop up some guardsmen? Wow.... Fabtastic... *clap clap*
The amount of attacks is more or less on par with previous rules..

Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

With her rule, you will have to either get her close enough so she can attack twice, and doesn't need to advance or most likely will advance and only fight once. Meaning she cant reliably even blend a unit of chaff in reality if she only fights once.

That is what I meant by rules disagreeing with background. The rules for her fighting twice basically reward for attacking chaff as that is the most reliably way to trigger it.

If I were the one doing Lelith rules for flavor, I would give her the option to add on bonuses to her attacks if and only if they are all directed at a Character. Like -1 Attack (and able to sacrifice more than 1 Attack) to pick 1 from the following: Ignore invulnerables, +1 Damage to all attacks, disarm an enemy weapon (or -1 enemy Attack), +1 Strength (cumulative). Just as immediate off the cuff ideas to represent her showing her arena duelling skills and to show her using her ordinary knives in amazing ways to the astonishment of her opponents.

Against chaff, she can just use her normal number of Attacks to represent her blending. Her background described signature move is a swirling pirouette against multiple opponents.

 Argive wrote:
So what ? She can chop up some guardsmen? Wow.... Fabtastic... *clap clap*
The amount of attacks is more or less on par with previous rules..

Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

With her rule, you will have to either get her close enough so she can attack twice, and doesn't need to advance or most likely will advance and only fight once. Meaning she cant reliably even blend a unit of chaff in reality if she only fights once.

But sure. Snark away my dude..

A smash captain does 3.1 to W3 storm shield units.
Lelith does 2 -- 4 if she manages to kill one.

Similar against Gravis. She can do just as well if she can tip over into her second activation.

If we pretend she was D2 then she'd do 6 to SS and 6.8 to Gravis, which is much better than the 130 point captain when she's currently 90.

I feel like she does really well against most stuff. If you need to take out terminators then that's probably what Drazhar or disintegrators will be for.

Is it unfair that a smash captain can kill maybe one or two necron warriors when she can kill 8? Or do we just do away with variety, because head cannon says so?

 Argive wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Lelith gets knives that hit like Power Swords and three more attacks on her basic profile and the response is:

 Argive wrote:
Ugh... Str4 1Dmg attacks... Gross....

This is going pretty much like expected. No wonder they don't want to show this pile of crap off.

Don't change Dakka. Never change

So what ? She can chop up some guardsmen? Wow.... Fabtastic... *clap clap*
The amount of attacks is more or less on par with previous rules..

Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

With her rule, you will have to either get her close enough so she can attack twice, and doesn't need to advance or most likely will advance and only fight once. Meaning she cant reliably even blend a unit of chaff in reality if she only fights once.

But sure. Snark away my dude..

From what we know, she is more deadly then before. But since she can't drop kick a Space Marine Captain into next week, the unit is a failure. This Zero or Hero mentality is sadly common on DD now days

Iracundus wrote:

If I were the one doing Lelith rules for flavor, I would give her the option to add on bonuses to her attacks if and only if they are all directed at a Character. Like -1 Attack (and able to sacrifice more than 1 Attack) to pick 1 from the following: Ignore invulnerables, +1 Damage to all attacks, disarm an enemy weapon (or -1 enemy Attack), +1 Strength (cumulative). Just as immediate off the cuff ideas to represent her showing her arena duelling skills and to show her using her ordinary knives in amazing ways to the astonishment of her opponents.

Her old rules has reroll hits and wounds vs characters. I imagine that will stay.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So what ? She can chop up some guardsmen? Wow.... Fabtastic... *clap clap*
The amount of attacks is more or less on par with previous rules..

Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

With her rule, you will have to either get her close enough so she can attack twice, and doesn't need to advance or most likely will advance and only fight once. Meaning she cant reliably even blend a unit of chaff in reality if she only fights once.

But sure. Snark away my dude..

A smash captain does 3.1 to W3 storm shield units.
Lelith does 2 -- 4 if she manages to kill one.

Similar against Gravis. She can do just as well if she can tip over into her second activation.

Problem is, most storm shield units and gravis units have 3 wounds, so pretty good odds she... won't tip over to her second activation. She'll bounce short of killing 1.
Same with characters.
Basic marines she can actually claw her way up to killing 2 then another 2. Good for her, I guess.

Characters packing a flurry of average strength minimum damage attacks is a different edition's design philosophy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So what ? She can chop up some guardsmen? Wow.... Fabtastic... *clap clap*
The amount of attacks is more or less on par with previous rules..

Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

With her rule, you will have to either get her close enough so she can attack twice, and doesn't need to advance or most likely will advance and only fight once. Meaning she cant reliably even blend a unit of chaff in reality if she only fights once.

But sure. Snark away my dude..

A smash captain does 3.1 to W3 storm shield units.
Lelith does 2 -- 4 if she manages to kill one.

Similar against Gravis. She can do just as well if she can tip over into her second activation.

If we pretend she was D2 then she'd do 6 to SS and 6.8 to Gravis, which is much better than the 130 point captain when she's currently 90.

I feel like she does really well against most stuff. If you need to take out terminators then that's probably what Drazhar or disintegrators will be for.

Is it unfair that a smash captain can kill maybe one or two necron warriors when she can kill 8? Or do we just do away with variety, because head cannon says so?

What exactly is this similiarly priced captain equipped with, what warlord traits+ relics he has and what chapter and doctrine is he?
Also shes not getting that second activation realistically until turn 3 if you can get her to safe charging distance otherwise she will have to advance and charge so no double activation for her. Good thing honouring the chapter is no longer a thing that you can just pay CP for instead.

She's not a nameless generic HQ..
How many pts is Ragnar these days?

Also I dotn think she will retain rerolls.. Just a hunch. Also will she provide rerolls for half the army like a smash captain does?
So yeah her 90 pts if she stays that wont really far in terms of utilty either. I recon she'll be close to 110 because new codex new xenos tax.

We will know soon enough but that's trying really hard to justify taking her instead of just another venom and more ob sec troops right now..

PenitentJake wrote:
So since her second attack happens at he end of the attack phase, does that mean she can attack the chaff screen, and if she kills them all, consolidate into the HQ they were screening and hit them with next attack?

Not unless they heroically intervene into her, seeing as you have to attack what you charged.

She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

PenitentJake wrote:
She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

No model no rules...

Yeah, I think we would have seen the impaler by now. Or at least had it mentioned.

The 2010 version was that her knife and hair 'counted as' a shardnet and impaler, but well, we've seen the knife's profile.

 Argive wrote:

How many pts is Ragnar these days?

Ragnar is a good barometer. He's 130 and similar in the gakload of attacks category. It will be interesting to see the traits and remaining abilities.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

How many pts is Ragnar these days?

Ragnar is a good barometer. He's 130 and similar in the gakload of attacks category. It will be interesting to see the traits and remaining abilities.

yeah 10 attacks almost all the time AND S6 AND AP-4 AND D2....

Ragnar makes her look like a complete weakling, which seems to be working as intended with modern GW Xenos design.

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

No model no rules...

A selectively enforced policy; it didn't stop her from having the option in 8th, and it doesn't apply to Celestians or Dominions, both of whom are built with regular ole Battle Sister models.

You are correct though that if they do cut the option, that will be the excuse they use- it's certainly not like they haven't done it before.

PenitentJake wrote:

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

No model no rules...

A selectively enforced policy; it didn't stop her from having the option in 8th, and it doesn't apply to Celestians or Dominions, both of whom are built with regular ole Battle Sister models.

Um? Not seeing the relevance to Celestians or Dominions. They have all their options in their box, its just a shared kit (Battle Sisters/Celestians/Dominions). But its why _every_ special weapon option has four copies in the box, and there are alternate helmets for the Celestians.

You are correct though that if they do cut the option, that will be the excuse they use- it's certainly not like they haven't done it before.

I can't think of any time GW has actually stated that as a reason. Forum goers certainly use that litany for almost any change, but that's never an 'official' reason.

PenitentJake wrote:

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

No model no rules...

A selectively enforced policy; it didn't stop her from having the option in 8th, and it doesn't apply to Celestians or Dominions, both of whom are built with regular ole Battle Sister models.

You are correct though that if they do cut the option, that will be the excuse they use- it's certainly not like they haven't done it before.

Tell me about it.. I still don't understand why I cant have autarch on foot with a power sword or a fusion pistol... Considering there is no Autarch on foot model. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Ragnar makes her look like a complete weakling, which seems to be working as intended with modern GW Xenos design.

Yeah but Ragnar makes any character look like a weakling..