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Maybe after we get a 17th primaris lieutenant, the foot autarch can get a model.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

How many pts is Ragnar these days?

Ragnar is a good barometer. He's 130 and similar in the gakload of attacks category. It will be interesting to see the traits and remaining abilities.

Skulltaker is another good comparison. Same point cost as Lelith, fewer base attacks, but S5 (or 6) and 3 damage base, or d3+3 on a 6, so he can actually kill people- both characters (with full rerolls to wound and hit) and heavy infantry.

Argive wrote:Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

I don't think she will bounce of anything, but a decent unit of the Gravis or Storm Shields would slow her down. Invuls block most anything anyway, but I don't think a 5+ or 5++ would define as something that one would be bouncing off of. It's not like 2+/3++ was the hardest thing one would bounce off that wasn't a Vehicle any more. And as "bad" as Str 4 is, she was actually Str 3 back in the 5th Ed reset, so...

 Charistoph wrote:

Argive wrote:Truth is she will bounce off anything that's gravis or terminator or has storm shields which hate it or love is what you have to be able to remove from objectives for it to matter... She cant kill elite infantry, characters with an invuln or monsters or vehicles with any degree of effectiveness. So she's a very good looking chaff clearer.. great.. just what the army needs with its millions of poison... yep.. cant deal with the chaff... Truth we don't know the whole scope of the rules but ST4 1Dmg is friggin terrible no matter how you spin it..

I don't think she will bounce of anything, but a decent unit of the Gravis or Storm Shields would slow her down. Invuls block most anything anyway, but I don't think a 5+ or 5++ would define as something that one would be bouncing off of. It's not like 2+/3++ was the hardest thing one would bounce off that wasn't a Vehicle any more. And as "bad" as Str 4 is, she was actually Str 3 back in the 5th Ed reset, so...

Though in 5th edition you could just stick her in a squad of allied axeblades and enjoy being majority T5, wraithblades to kill anything lilith would bounce on and lilith would prevent them from getting tarpitted. and she ignored all armor.. and had a Bs9 plasma grenade that almost never scattered. and against most trash ws3 or 4 she had like 10 attacks due to getting +5-6 extra attacks from league apart. (i do miss some of the wacky de/eldar things you could do with battle brother allies)

 alextroy wrote:
From what we know, she is more deadly then before. But since she can't drop kick a Space Marine Captain into next week, the unit is a failure. This Zero or Hero mentality is sadly common on DD now days

I mean, yeah. That's sort of the state of the game. It's why people are happy for Incubi to be getting D2 and why D2 on Praetorians was gladly received.

It's a Marine meta. Always has been, always will be. For hyper elite units that have a focus on killing hyper elite things (with Lelith's status as a duellist she kind of does have) D1 just doesn't cut it in a lot of cases.

Obviously we'll have to see her full rules before passing judgement and assuming she keeps her re-rolls she can still fairly reliably yeet Marine support characters like Librarians and Apothecaries. But overall what they've shown of her so far just raises the question of what role she is meant to fill? A bit like the Hexmark Destroyer for Necrons really. Some highly efficient anti-horde/chaff unit.... in an army that's already full of that.

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

No model no rules...

It is possible (if not particularly probable) that her new kit contains a Shardnet and Impaler option.

 alextroy wrote:
Lelith gets knives that hit like Power Swords and three more attacks on her basic profile...

Just a point but we don't yet know whether those extra attacks on her profile actually represent extra attacks, or whether they've just consolidated the extra attacks she used to get anyway.

 harlokin wrote:

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
She may also retain her ability to equip with a 2 damage Impaler instead of the knives. Even better if they let her use a shard net with it like a normal wych- though she didn't have it last edition either, so I doubt she'll get it this time around.

There's precedent for the Impaler though.

No model no rules...

It is possible (if not particularly probable) that her new kit contains a Shardnet and Impaler option.

I dont really see that happening, 7A profile, the same with the knife but better

 Argive wrote:

Yeah but Ragnar makes any character look like a weakling..

But that is the whole point. Lilith should be like Ragnar without all his buff aura's.

Drazhar is a better warrior than Leilith in the fluff too. Do we know if she has her trident or not?

 Bosskelot wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
From what we know, she is more deadly then before. But since she can't drop kick a Space Marine Captain into next week, the unit is a failure. This Zero or Hero mentality is sadly common on DD now days

I mean, yeah. That's sort of the state of the game. It's why people are happy for Incubi to be getting D2 and why D2 on Praetorians was gladly received.

It's a Marine meta. Always has been, always will be. For hyper elite units that have a focus on killing hyper elite things (with Lelith's status as a duellist she kind of does have) D1 just doesn't cut it in a lot of cases.

Obviously we'll have to see her full rules before passing judgement and assuming she keeps her re-rolls she can still fairly reliably yeet Marine support characters like Librarians and Apothecaries. But overall what they've shown of her so far just raises the question of what role she is meant to fill? A bit like the Hexmark Destroyer for Necrons really. Some highly efficient anti-horde/chaff unit.... in an army that's already full of that.

A space marine captain (or differently named equivalent, or better) is the standard HQ for an enormous fraction of the meta. If you combine marine armies, chaos marine armies, and custode armies you've accounted for like 75% of the armies in competitive play and honestly probably more in casual play. Just like how a suicide antitank unit that can't kill a W10 T7 3+ target is worthless, a character assassin that can't kill T4 W5 4++ is worthless.

I mean,it's fine. Drazar is right there, with fething A14 S5 AP-3 D2 with +1 to wound if he retains his current abilties, for 45pts more but they're points I'm happy to spend. This is just yet another good ol' classic GW "we made it utterly impossible for a new xenos release to succeed so that we can declare xenos releases bad investments" move.

Held hostage in a 240$ box set? Check
Mediocre to bad rules? Check.
Uninspired, dull sculpt? Check.
Not actually something new, just a plastic-ization of another .001% of the massive section of the range still in finecrap? Check.

looks like it's a GW Eldar release, yepyepyep!

the_scotsman wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
From what we know, she is more deadly then before. But since she can't drop kick a Space Marine Captain into next week, the unit is a failure. This Zero or Hero mentality is sadly common on DD now days

I mean, yeah. That's sort of the state of the game. It's why people are happy for Incubi to be getting D2 and why D2 on Praetorians was gladly received.

It's a Marine meta. Always has been, always will be. For hyper elite units that have a focus on killing hyper elite things (with Lelith's status as a duellist she kind of does have) D1 just doesn't cut it in a lot of cases.

Obviously we'll have to see her full rules before passing judgement and assuming she keeps her re-rolls she can still fairly reliably yeet Marine support characters like Librarians and Apothecaries. But overall what they've shown of her so far just raises the question of what role she is meant to fill? A bit like the Hexmark Destroyer for Necrons really. Some highly efficient anti-horde/chaff unit.... in an army that's already full of that.

A space marine captain (or differently named equivalent, or better) is the standard HQ for an enormous fraction of the meta. If you combine marine armies, chaos marine armies, and custode armies you've accounted for like 75% of the armies in competitive play and honestly probably more in casual play. Just like how a suicide antitank unit that can't kill a W10 T7 3+ target is worthless, a character assassin that can't kill T4 W5 4++ is worthless.

I mean,it's fine. Drazar is right there, with fething A14 S5 AP-3 D2 with +1 to wound if he retains his current abilties, for 45pts more but they're points I'm happy to spend. This is just yet another good ol' classic GW "we made it utterly impossible for a new xenos release to succeed so that we can declare xenos releases bad investments" move.

Held hostage in a 240$ box set? Check
Mediocre to bad rules? Check.
Uninspired, dull sculpt? Check.
Not actually something new, just a plastic-ization of another .001% of the massive section of the range still in finecrap? Check.

looks like it's a GW Eldar release, yepyepyep!

I cant really get why they treat Xenos like this,

they want all player to play space marines?
Like, do they know that if they make a half decent CWE/DE release people will buy like there is no tomorrow (and i will be one)?, ofc they do then why?
We already see that variety REALLY helps the growth of a game, aos its a living proof of that, and its became already a meme that AOS have better release and armys

In a word, market segments. GW has multiple different market segments that they're aiming for.

1) nostalgia-based older collectors. Basically, people who used to be part of the primary audience of teenaged boys in the 90s, and who are now older men in their 40s with disposable incomes who remember games workshop games fondly, and who GW knows will buy new kits if they are exactly. as. they. remember. them. These are consumers GW assumes are willing to shell out more to get the experience they remember: Customizing their miniatures, kitbashing, building them as they like them, and in turn, GW treats them as something of a 'captive audience'.

2) new teenaged consumers. GW has priced out teenagers buying things with their own money, so they generally take an approach mirroring the AAA video game industry or LEGO for their new consumer capture strategy: get them in with a 250-350$ purchase that gives them a starter product that a parent will purchase as a big gift, then have a split between small expansion items priced at 30-40$ that the kid is supposed to be able to afford himself, and larger 60-80$ kits that are meant to be gifts from the parent.

3) model/diorama artists who want the biggest coolest craziest most intricate plastic models on the market. This is the Centerpiece kit ballgame, the Belakors and the Keepers of Secrets and the Silent Kings and the Triumvirate boxes. These minis generally have rules that revolve around cool features on the model, limited customizability, very little practical design for gaming, and are solidly in the 100+$ per kit price point because they know the sales volume for that category of consumer is low. The diorama artist market buys 1 kit every couple of months, so GW makes sure that 1 kit is a sizable purchase.

Knowing what market segment each army is aimed for is an important step in knowing whether you're going to be made happy by a particular release. The new necrons, Death Guard, Chaos Space marine and primaris marines are 100% new player capture armies. The new sisters, GSC, and Admech are Nostalgia Collector armies.

if you buy into a new player capture army, you're likely to get simpler rules, simpler kits, and fewer options, but you're going to save a lot of money, and you're going to have many more units that you can buy cheaper EZtobuild kits and army bundle boxes for.

Most people I know playing the game don't remotely fit into any of those catagories.

Yeah. Of maybe... 70-80 guys personally or have played with in my community that play warhammer, 80% are 25-45 year olds that enjoy the models, more or less enjoy or at least are capable of painting, have been nerds all of their life, but most of all enjoy playing from casual 1 store month tournament to hardcore competitive.

We have also had a couple of "I have been buyin stuff for 10 years but didnt started to play until 8th" guys and gals.

 Imateria wrote:
Most people I know playing the game don't remotely fit into any of those catagories.

Sounds about right for GW marketing research.

warmaster21 wrote:Though in 5th edition you could just stick her in a squad of allied axeblades and enjoy being majority T5, wraithblades to kill anything lilith would bounce on and lilith would prevent them from getting tarpitted. and she ignored all armor.. and had a Bs9 plasma grenade that almost never scattered. and against most trash ws3 or 4 she had like 10 attacks due to getting +5-6 extra attacks from league apart. (i do miss some of the wacky de/eldar things you could do with battle brother allies)

T5 provided nothing to prevent bouncing off something, it helped things bounce off of her. The point I was trying to make was that she Wounds better than back then, and the poor Saves she leaves isn't like she is as hopeless as the point I was addressing.

And no, she did no have a BS9 Plasma Grenade that never scattered in 5e. That didn't change until Grenades could be thrown in 6th.

More to another point is that she was always a weak buzzcutter who's only problem was Wounding (countered by volume), which is still largely the case.

 Charistoph wrote:

warmaster21 wrote:Though in 5th edition you could just stick her in a squad of allied axeblades and enjoy being majority T5, wraithblades to kill anything lilith would bounce on and lilith would prevent them from getting tarpitted. and she ignored all armor.. and had a Bs9 plasma grenade that almost never scattered. and against most trash ws3 or 4 she had like 10 attacks due to getting +5-6 extra attacks from league apart. (i do miss some of the wacky de/eldar things you could do with battle brother allies)

T5 provided nothing to prevent bouncing off something, it helped things bounce off of her. The point I was trying to make was that she Wounds better than back then, and the poor Saves she leaves isn't like she is as hopeless as the point I was addressing.

And no, she did no have a BS9 Plasma Grenade that never scattered in 5e. That didn't change until Grenades could be thrown in 6th.

More to another point is that she was always a weak buzzcutter who's only problem was Wounding (countered by volume), which is still largely the case.

The point is now shes going to be trying to kill things with T4/5 with at least 2/3 wounds (terminators, baldeguard etc) at dmg 1. It's is not the same thing..

 Argive wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

warmaster21 wrote:Though in 5th edition you could just stick her in a squad of allied axeblades and enjoy being majority T5, wraithblades to kill anything lilith would bounce on and lilith would prevent them from getting tarpitted. and she ignored all armor.. and had a Bs9 plasma grenade that almost never scattered. and against most trash ws3 or 4 she had like 10 attacks due to getting +5-6 extra attacks from league apart. (i do miss some of the wacky de/eldar things you could do with battle brother allies)

T5 provided nothing to prevent bouncing off something, it helped things bounce off of her. The point I was trying to make was that she Wounds better than back then, and the poor Saves she leaves isn't like she is as hopeless as the point I was addressing.

And no, she did no have a BS9 Plasma Grenade that never scattered in 5e. That didn't change until Grenades could be thrown in 6th.

More to another point is that she was always a weak buzzcutter who's only problem was Wounding (countered by volume), which is still largely the case.

The point is now shes going to be trying to kill things with T4/5 with at least 2/3 wounds (terminators, baldeguard etc) at dmg 1. It's is not the same thing..

Well, she will Wound T4/5 easier than she used to, and she was never really intended to be buzzsawing in to hammer/board Terminators anyway. Regular Terminators will still give her the same problem as ever, though, the rate they go down will have diminished (but name an anti-infantry unit where that is not the case). Has she ever had a method of doing more damage than Attacks? If not, then I don't really see the specific complaint against her (a complaint against the Astartes buffs, sure, but there are other threads on those).

Don't think I've mentioned it in this thread yet...

If you go to the Warhammer 40k site, they now have subfactions up for everyone, and the DE subfaction descriptions give hints about what the Obsessions may be.

MOST of them look similar to old Obsessions, so the status quo seems largely maintained, and the Kabal of the Black Heart description seems to confirm Power from Pain will remain, and function in much the same way as usual.

The Cult of Strife description, however, makes it seem like their obsession might change to Slashing Impact (deal D3 Mortal Wounds on a charge).

Now if so, that's a softener, making the odds of getting a kill to facilitate the second set of attacks higher and at least somewhat mitigating Invulnerable saves.

PenitentJake wrote:
Don't think I've mentioned it in this thread yet...

If you go to the Warhammer 40k site, they now have subfactions up for everyone, and the DE subfaction descriptions give hints about what the Obsessions may be.

MOST of them look similar to old Obsessions, so the status quo seems largely maintained, and the Kabal of the Black Heart description seems to confirm Power from Pain will remain, and function in much the same way as usual.

The Cult of Strife description, however, makes it seem like their obsession might change to Slashing Impact (deal D3 Mortal Wounds on a charge).

Now if so, that's a softener, making the odds of getting a kill to facilitate the second set of attacks higher and at least somewhat mitigating Invulnerable saves.

Nice catch.

In my pettiness, I also enjoyed seeing Ynnari as a subfaction on the level of a Kabal.

Ooh- I missed that part part- good catch for you too!

I'd say the description for cult of strife seems the same. "Stabbing and slashing as they charge into melee" translates just fine to "+1A on the charge."

Also LOL@ old lelith being the image that pops up. Rip.

PenitentJake wrote:
and the Kabal of the Black Heart description seems to confirm Power from Pain will remain, and function in much the same way as usual.

You know you're in for a good codex when you're promised a "ground-up rework" and it starts with Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.

 vipoid wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
and the Kabal of the Black Heart description seems to confirm Power from Pain will remain, and function in much the same way as usual.

You know you're in for a good codex when you're promised a "ground-up rework" and it starts with Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.

Where did they promise that and why would PfP go away? Its not like -1D would help elves.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
and the Kabal of the Black Heart description seems to confirm Power from Pain will remain, and function in much the same way as usual.

You know you're in for a good codex when you're promised a "ground-up rework" and it starts with Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.

Where did they promise that and why would PfP go away? Its not like -1D would help elves.

There was never anything credible one way or the other about PfP, which lead some of the more paranoid and pessimistic folks wondering if the rule would change significantly or even disappear. The description of the Black Heart implies that there is a power that the Drukhari get which increases as the game progresses, and that the Black Heart's niche is that they benefit from its most powerful effects sooner than most.

This is the most authoritative thing GW has said so far about PfP one way or the other.

You guys are sort of assuming the website's updated on the basis of the new codex, and not some content writer being told "here's the existing codexes, make up something cool for each faction's chapter variant".

"Uh, do we have a Dark Creed wrack or something?"
"Hahaha. Of course not."

Tyel wrote:
You guys are sort of assuming the website's updated on the basis of the new codex, and not some content writer being told "here's the existing codexes, make up something cool for each faction's chapter variant".

"Uh, do we have a Dark Creed wrack or something?"
"Hahaha. Of course not."

Whats a dark creed? Does it have something to do with Space marines?

The warhammer community stuff is often wrong even when it's about a specific release coming up (e.g. the recent post that claimed that Kill Team: Pariah would include the base rulebook, which they then ninja edited to remove without any explanation), you certainly can't trust that it's going to be right for more general stuff not tied to anything in particular.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Where did they promise that

It was during one of the Sunday preview/discussion videos, IIRC.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
and why would PfP go away?

I don't want it to go away. I just don't want it to be this sad Table of Dreariness.

It's basically the same lazy, boring dollop of faecal matter that was first smeared on the codex back in 7th edition, and the passage of time has not improved its odour.