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I think we can safely assume that FnP for the entire army is on its way out as both DG and Drukhari have lost those abilities save for a relic or warlord trait.

Oh this is going to e good; now that I've read and re-read the detachment rules, I know that they got the most important thing right- and not just right... It's perfect. It even scales properly with game size now!

I really want to see what the succubus gets for the master upgrade. And want to read about Bloodbrides.

Here's another interesting thing to ponder: Kabals having Trueborn and Cults having Bloodbrides is great, but we have seen that in previous editions. If I recall though, there was never an elite Wrack equivalent (though I could be wrong).

This time around though, they might.

One good Warcom article after all the phoned in articles last week, and I'm suddenly excited about the release. That's all it took- just a bit of genuine, real information.

It's a good day.

Time to paint Wyches!

Gonna get revenge on everyone who called Lelith fat. :-)

PenitentJake wrote:
If I recall though, there was never an elite Wrack equivalent (though I could be wrong).

This time around though, they might.

It's almost guaranteed there will be an option.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think we can safely assume that FnP for the entire army is on its way out as both DG and Drukhari have lost those abilities save for a relic or warlord trait.

PFP is a big reason why DE were still somewhat competitive no mater what the state of the game was. 6+ FNP on cheap units is really good. Seems DE got some big buffs in other areas so maybe it will compensate for the loss of FNP.

Ironhands still have 6+ FNP though - If you are correct and FNP is on the way out - I wonder what Ulthwe would get instead?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think we can safely assume that FnP for the entire army is on its way out as both DG and Drukhari have lost those abilities save for a relic or warlord trait.

PFP is a big reason why DE were still somewhat competitive no mater what the state of the game was. 6+ FNP on cheap units is really good. Seems DE got some big buffs in other areas so maybe it will compensate for the loss of FNP.

Ironhands still have 6+ FNP though - If you are correct and FNP is on the way out - I wonder what Ulthwe would get instead?

6++ is just as good as 6+++ on W1 models. You weren't ever saving D2 with 6+++.

It mattered on their vehicles/monsters, which will likely go to -1D. That just leaves boats out in the cold, but if you can keep them alive they'll double their wound table the last round.

 Galas wrote:
Look... Dark Eldars appear to receive the same treatment and care than necrons, death guard and previous codex... who would have tought...

We still haven't seen the wargear options. That Scourge entry should be very interesting...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think we can safely assume that FnP for the entire army is on its way out as both DG and Drukhari have lost those abilities save for a relic or warlord trait.

PFP is a big reason why DE were still somewhat competitive no mater what the state of the game was. 6+ FNP on cheap units is really good. Seems DE got some big buffs in other areas so maybe it will compensate for the loss of FNP.

Ironhands still have 6+ FNP though - If you are correct and FNP is on the way out - I wonder what Ulthwe would get instead?

6++ is just as good as 6+++ on W1 models. You weren't ever saving D2 with 6+++.

It mattered on their vehicles/monsters, which will likely go to -1D. That just leaves boats out in the cold, but if you can keep them alive they'll double their wound table the last round.

For Kabals, only vs AP-3 or better.

Today's reveal is better than I was expecting. Mostly.

The change to PfP is mostly good, save for the removal of the 6+++. A lot of stuff already had a 6++ or better, so it seems most of the army will be effectively getting nothing on turn 1, which isn't good. And you don't get a 'proper' save until turn 4.

Now, in fairness, I don't like 6+++ saves, but a 6++ is hardly improving anything in that regard. Just seems to be a big nerf for no real reason.

Trueborn are looking a bit weird. If they cost extra points (as the article implies) then I don't see why they couldn't take extra special/heavy weapons. I'm doubtful that they'll be a free upgrade just for taking an Archon so I guess we'll see.

Raiding Force looks interesting, though I'm concerned about the lack of any mention of extra transport space, or the possibility of auras affecting units in or out of transports.

Lastly, Archon Relics continue to look like stuff that should just be standard wargear.


All that said, there is a lot to like here. I can't claim to yet be optimistic but I'm at least a good deal less pessimistic about the book.

The point of trueborn was more special weapons in 1 squad. Since they don't appear to have that I woulnd't call this a 'return of trueborn'.

The whole point was so you could fill a Venom with blasters.

 Ordana wrote:
The point of trueborn was more special weapons in 1 squad. Since they don't appear to have that I woulnd't call this a 'return of trueborn'.

The whole point was so you could fill a Venom with blasters.

I also really hope Raiders have an extra transport space.

Otherwise, Archons will have the power to take an elite retinue of 10 Trueborn... who they then can't ride with.

Do we KNOW that they can't be equipped differently to Kabalites? Perhaps I'm reading far too much into the fluff bit about "being and to demand the very best"

 Galas wrote:
Look... Dark Eldars appear to receive the same treatment and care than necrons, death guard and previous codex... who would have tought...

not even close, good rules but remember we only got lelith as """new"""" model and most of the units are still failcast

Not playing Drukhari so probably missing something here, but if PfP becomes their mono faction army bonus, what is their actual faction bonus (you know like acts of faith, angels of death, disgustingly resilient, etc) . Or we just don't know yet ?

 harlokin wrote:
Do we KNOW that they can't be equipped differently to Kabalites? Perhaps I'm reading far too much into the fluff bit about "being and to demand the very best"

They use the same Kabalite datasheet

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think we can safely assume that FnP for the entire army is on its way out as both DG and Drukhari have lost those abilities save for a relic or warlord trait.

PFP is a big reason why DE were still somewhat competitive no mater what the state of the game was. 6+ FNP on cheap units is really good. Seems DE got some big buffs in other areas so maybe it will compensate for the loss of FNP.

Ironhands still have 6+ FNP though - If you are correct and FNP is on the way out - I wonder what Ulthwe would get instead?

6++ is just as good as 6+++ on W1 models. You weren't ever saving D2 with 6+++.

It mattered on their vehicles/monsters, which will likely go to -1D. That just leaves boats out in the cold, but if you can keep them alive they'll double their wound table the last round.

It is pretty much always worse. Warriors with a 4+ save now are pretty much always going to get a 6+ save at the min. So now they lose 20% more models because they don't have 6+ FNP. Wracks already have an invune / witches get an invune in CC - and warriors have a pretty good save. It is a huge nerf. Like I said though - it can be being made up for in other areas we just don't know yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
The point of trueborn was more special weapons in 1 squad. Since they don't appear to have that I woulnd't call this a 'return of trueborn'.

The whole point was so you could fill a Venom with blasters.

It's gonna have to be a raider now. I believe a 10 man warrior can take 2 heavies and 2 specials.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think we can safely assume that FnP for the entire army is on its way out as both DG and Drukhari have lost those abilities save for a relic or warlord trait.

PFP is a big reason why DE were still somewhat competitive no mater what the state of the game was. 6+ FNP on cheap units is really good. Seems DE got some big buffs in other areas so maybe it will compensate for the loss of FNP.

Ironhands still have 6+ FNP though - If you are correct and FNP is on the way out - I wonder what Ulthwe would get instead?

The Ironhands supplement came before 9th right? I imagine they were designed in an old paradigm that is no longer being applied. We of course won't know until we see a new edition of that supplement though.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Craftworlds get the Alaitoc ability as a generic detachment ability.

 Xenomancers wrote:

It is pretty much always worse. Warriors with a 4+ save now are pretty much always going to get a 6+ save at the min. So now they lose 20% more models because they don't have 6+ FNP. Wracks already have an invune / witches get an invune in CC - and warriors have a pretty good save. It is a huge nerf. Like I said though - it can be being made up for in other areas we just don't know yet.

Sorry my brain was going to Wyches, yes, FNP is useful when the armor isn't stripped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:
The Ironhands supplement came before 9th right? I imagine they were designed in an old paradigm that is no longer being applied. We of course won't know until we see a new edition of that supplement though.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Craftworlds get the Alaitoc ability as a generic detachment ability.

The base trait is in the 9th codex. Their super doc is the part in their supplement.

I mean. The 6++ invul save in Sisters of Battle is also useless... until you start improving it.

 InVerno wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Look... Dark Eldars appear to receive the same treatment and care than necrons, death guard and previous codex... who would have tought...

not even close, good rules but remember we only got lelith as """new"""" model and most of the units are still failcast

Galas did mention "codex" specifically as in what care Drukhari might be getting. Death Guard also only got one model unless you count the terrain piece that no one is using(when was the last time you used the webway gate terrain piece?).

GW seems to really have failed on faction terrain pieces in 9th compared to faction terrain pieces in AoS.

The base trait is in the 9th codex. Their super doc is the part in their supplement.

Interesting. Then they appear to be the odd man out so far.

 InVerno wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Look... Dark Eldars appear to receive the same treatment and care than necrons, death guard and previous codex... who would have tought...

not even close, good rules but remember we only got lelith as """new"""" model and most of the units are still failcast

I think you may be exaggerating just a wee bit here. Drukhari are predominately plastic, by a long shot.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think we can safely assume that FnP for the entire army is on its way out as both DG and Drukhari have lost those abilities save for a relic or warlord trait.

PFP is a big reason why DE were still somewhat competitive no mater what the state of the game was. 6+ FNP on cheap units is really good. Seems DE got some big buffs in other areas so maybe it will compensate for the loss of FNP.

Ironhands still have 6+ FNP though - If you are correct and FNP is on the way out - I wonder what Ulthwe would get instead?

The Ironhands supplement came before 9th right? I imagine they were designed in an old paradigm that is no longer being applied. We of course won't know until we see a new edition of that supplement though.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Craftworlds get the Alaitoc ability as a generic detachment ability.

They had the opportunity to change ironhand's 6+ FNP chapter tactic in the 9th ed codex but they didn't. I suppose an Iron Hands supplement could change their chapter tactic but for the love of all that is good - please no more marine supplements!

 Xenomancers wrote:

It is pretty much always worse. Warriors with a 4+ save now are pretty much always going to get a 6+ save at the min. So now they lose 20% more models because they don't have 6+ FNP. Wracks already have an invune / witches get an invune in CC - and warriors have a pretty good save. It is a huge nerf. Like I said though - it can be being made up for in other areas we just don't know yet.

Regarding warriors, unless I made a mistake, with the change to their saves, it ends up a 4+ 6++ is pretty much the same as a 5+ 6+++ against D1 weapons.

AP 0 => 5+ 6+++ = 1/3 + 2/3 * 1/6 = 8/18 => 4+ 6++ = 1/2 = 9/18 AP -1 => 5+ 6+++ = 1/6 + 5/6 * 1/6 = 11/36 => 4+ 6++ = 1/3 = 12/36 AP -2 & more => 5+ 6+++ = 1/6 => 4+ 6++ = 1/6
For witches and wracks, it's different but would have to see the codex though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think we can safely assume that FnP for the entire army is on its way out as both DG and Drukhari have lost those abilities save for a relic or warlord trait.

PFP is a big reason why DE were still somewhat competitive no mater what the state of the game was. 6+ FNP on cheap units is really good. Seems DE got some big buffs in other areas so maybe it will compensate for the loss of FNP.

Ironhands still have 6+ FNP though - If you are correct and FNP is on the way out - I wonder what Ulthwe would get instead?

6++ is just as good as 6+++ on W1 models. You weren't ever saving D2 with 6+++.

It mattered on their vehicles/monsters, which will likely go to -1D. That just leaves boats out in the cold, but if you can keep them alive they'll double their wound table the last round.

Mmhmm, and the fact that one of their troops units had a 5++, and the other had a 6++ that went to a 4++ in the fight phase, and the other...you know, had an armor save? that you'd usually be able to take in addition to the FNP?

the new rule only matters if your opponent is firing plasmaguns at your kabalites. and we don't know what wyches and wracks are getting in exchange for their old invuln rules, but I'm guessing with wracks since they're going to 8ppm from 12ppm the answer is "not much."

dhallnet wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It is pretty much always worse. Warriors with a 4+ save now are pretty much always going to get a 6+ save at the min. So now they lose 20% more models because they don't have 6+ FNP. Wracks already have an invune / witches get an invune in CC - and warriors have a pretty good save. It is a huge nerf. Like I said though - it can be being made up for in other areas we just don't know yet.

Regarding warriors, unless I made a mistake, with the change to their saves, it ends up a 4+ 6++ is pretty much the same as a 5+ 6+++ against D1 weapons.

PA 0 => 5+ 6+++ = 1/3 + 2/3 * 1/6 = 10/18 => 4+ 6++ = 1/2 = 9/18 PA -1 => 5+ 6+++ = 1/6 + 5/6 * 1/6 = 11/36 => 4+ 6++ = 1/3 = 12/36 PA -2 & more => 5+ 6+++ = 1/6 => 4+ 6++ = 1/6
For witches and wracks, it's different but would have to see the codex though.

Yeah. That is true but warriors with a 4+ 6+++ would have been pretty fantastic. Also you lose out against mortals as well.

Yeah. IMO, it puts a big ol question mark on what inured and dodge is going to do now. i kind of doubt GW would leave a bunch of conflicting rules lying around.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yeah. That is true but warriors with a 4+ 6+++ would have been pretty fantastic. Also you lose out against mortals as well.

Sure but they also become tougher than a 4+ 6+++ when you hit turn 4.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 InVerno wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Look... Dark Eldars appear to receive the same treatment and care than necrons, death guard and previous codex... who would have tought...

not even close, good rules but remember we only got lelith as """new"""" model and most of the units are still failcast

Galas did mention "codex" specifically as in what care Drukhari might be getting. Death Guard also only got one model unless you count the terrain piece that no one is using(when was the last time you used the webway gate terrain piece?).

GW seems to really have failed on faction terrain pieces in 9th compared to faction terrain pieces in AoS.

The base trait is in the 9th codex. Their super doc is the part in their supplement.

Interesting. Then they appear to be the odd man out so far.

Yep, my bad, sorry for the misunderstanding

 harlokin wrote:
Do we KNOW that they can't be equipped differently to Kabalites? Perhaps I'm reading far too much into the fluff bit about "being and to demand the very best"

Its not a new datasheet so the odds of getting different weapon options (even just the amount) is practically 0 and has absolutely no precedence?

Them being the best is the 2+ BS. not access to 4 blasters.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think we can safely assume that FnP for the entire army is on its way out as both DG and Drukhari have lost those abilities save for a relic or warlord trait.

PFP is a big reason why DE were still somewhat competitive no mater what the state of the game was. 6+ FNP on cheap units is really good. Seems DE got some big buffs in other areas so maybe it will compensate for the loss of FNP.

Ironhands still have 6+ FNP though - If you are correct and FNP is on the way out - I wonder what Ulthwe would get instead?

6++ is just as good as 6+++ on W1 models. You weren't ever saving D2 with 6+++.

It mattered on their vehicles/monsters, which will likely go to -1D. That just leaves boats out in the cold, but if you can keep them alive they'll double their wound table the last round.

It is pretty much always worse. Warriors with a 4+ save now are pretty much always going to get a 6+ save at the min. So now they lose 20% more models because they don't have 6+ FNP. Wracks already have an invune / witches get an invune in CC - and warriors have a pretty good save. It is a huge nerf. Like I said though - it can be being made up for in other areas we just don't know yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
The point of trueborn was more special weapons in 1 squad. Since they don't appear to have that I woulnd't call this a 'return of trueborn'.

The whole point was so you could fill a Venom with blasters.

It's gonna have to be a raider now. I believe a 10 man warrior can take 2 heavies and 2 specials.

Getting 2 specials with 10 is in no way comparable to getting 4 with 5.

Trueborn where 100% about how cheap a blaster boat was.

 bullyboy wrote:

 InVerno wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Look... Dark Eldars appear to receive the same treatment and care than necrons, death guard and previous codex... who would have tought...

not even close, good rules but remember we only got lelith as """new"""" model and most of the units are still failcast

I think you may be exaggerating just a wee bit here. Drukhari are predominately plastic, by a long shot.

Yep, but i just want the failcast to be competly gone


I am kinda excited for the news too, it seems we will get some cool rules, list building seems really fun with the new rules

 Ordana wrote:
Getting 2 specials with 10 is in no way comparable to getting 4 with 5.

Trueborn where 100% about how cheap a blaster boat was.

I'm betting Trueborn in a boat with two blasters, lance, and maybe a blast pistol will be popular and pretty hard to remove completely with ease.