Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

the_scotsman wrote:
Daed, is your sentiment that the upgrades for the cronos are big...sarcastic? It still seems like an absolute meme unit to me. Dreadnought-sized model with 4 S5 AP-1 D1 attacks, and one slightly improved heavy flamer...

Maybe? Longer range, procs are all D2 instead of D3, S5 instead of S3, along with what looks to be a new ability and some other new base rule on top of insensible and pfp.

 Denegaar wrote:
Yeah, Cronos can ressurrect CORE models with its ability now if that unit has no wounded dudes, I think it's quite useful.

Talos are CORE too.

The reason the Apothecary works is because he's a Character. If the Chronos isn't a character he's just a free kill.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You literally avoided my question with your reply LOL. How about instead of just pondering reasons you actually look at the topic on hand and realize it was GW restricting these particular kits just because they could. There IS NOT a balance justification. Don't pretend there is, nor should you pretend that's why GW does anything.

*shrug* I'm not here to start a fight or anything. If GW just did that, "just because they could" then why didn't they do it again? Why does your reason make more sense than mine?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You literally avoided my question with your reply LOL. How about instead of just pondering reasons you actually look at the topic on hand and realize it was GW restricting these particular kits just because they could. There IS NOT a balance justification. Don't pretend there is, nor should you pretend that's why GW does anything.

*shrug* I'm not here to start a fight or anything. If GW just did that, "just because they could" then why didn't they do it again? Why does your reason make more sense than mine?

Because when has GW been consistent outside being inconsistent? You're pretending they thought out balance when we have several editions that prove you wrong otherwise. Everyone was right to be concerned they'd get the Plague Marine/Blightlord treatment, because Loyalist Marines always get the exceptions.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You literally avoided my question with your reply LOL. How about instead of just pondering reasons you actually look at the topic on hand and realize it was GW restricting these particular kits just because they could. There IS NOT a balance justification. Don't pretend there is, nor should you pretend that's why GW does anything.

*shrug* I'm not here to start a fight or anything. If GW just did that, "just because they could" then why didn't they do it again? Why does your reason make more sense than mine?

Because when has GW been consistent outside being inconsistent? You're pretending they thought out balance when we have several editions that prove you wrong otherwise. Everyone was right to be concerned they'd get the Plague Marine/Blightlord treatment, because Loyalist Marines always get the exceptions.

Slayer, we all agree that it was a stupid decision from GW, no need to hyperfocus on this in a thread about druhkaris

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Because when has GW been consistent outside being inconsistent? You're pretending they thought out balance when we have several editions that prove you wrong otherwise. Everyone was right to be concerned they'd get the Plague Marine/Blightlord treatment, because Loyalist Marines always get the exceptions.

I'd be inclined to agree in prior editions. They could have just been careless, but they're pretty decent about fixing most things ( of late ). Maybe they'll fix it later. No idea. Anyway I'll concede so we don't have to derail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I gotta say I like the new Vect waaaay more.

Bloodbrides and special Wracks seem awesome. It looks as though none of them cost points, either.

Scourges evaded the Death Guard equipement-restriction patoguen. But Wytches became infected by it.

 Galas wrote:
Scourges evaded the Death Guard equipement-restriction patoguen. But Wytches became infected by it.

Gross. Anyone got a pic of that?

Cronos is 100% still a meme. It's basically even odds that it can kill a Sister of Battle in melee, and it's got no real shot at anything tougher than that. And I almost guarantee they FAQ the Talos rez. But even if they don't, how niche is this? Like everybody has said, it's still a derpy floaty turd that will just be nuked turn 1 before it can make it to combat, it's not fast enough to do that turn 1 even if the DE player gets the first.

I'm not actually complaining about this book as a whole and some of those things that you pointed out are fun, Daed (though you sound like my local redshirt when you start hyping up things as fun that already existed in the 8e codex), and I bet DE will be decent and rewarding to play. But the Cronos is still a piece of crap and will only be marginally worth it if it's cheap as hell, which is disappointing.

ETA: I also think Vect is decidedly a sidegrade. Yes, it'll be very nice against Transhuman. But it was also really helpful to just cancel out the Transhuman usage with oldVect and wipe the Bladeguard squad in one go, for example! And by far that's the best case scenario; most strats aren't used 2-3 times per player turn. Even if you tag a strat that's used every turn and leach 4CP out of your opponent... that's really good, don't get me wrong, possibly game changing, but it's not as emphatic and final as oldVect. Again, I'm a fan of this change because I don't think the "counterspell" rule makes sense in 40k like it does in Magic, but I don't think you can say that nuVect is better.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Scourges evaded the Death Guard equipement-restriction patoguen. But Wytches became infected by it.

Gross. Anyone got a pic of that?

I believe the problem with the cronos is the fact that is a double build with the Talos. The fluff and the rules are at odds with the model. When I read the fluff, and the rules, I imagine some kind of brainiac-robotic-tentacular monster like the robots of Matrix 3 or something like that. When I see the miniature I see a mutant ginormous homunculus with a ton of muscle and giant tentacles that should snap a man in two with a single hit.

 Galas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Scourges evaded the Death Guard equipement-restriction patoguen. But Wytches became infected by it.

Gross. Anyone got a pic of that?

Spoiler:

I believe the problem with the cronos is the fact that is a double build with the Talos. The fluff and the rules are at odds with the model. When I read the fluff, and the rules, I imagine some kind of brainiac-robotic-tentacular monster like the robots of Matrix 3 or something like that. When I see the miniature I see a mutant ginormous homunculus with a ton of muscle and giant tentacles that should snap a man in two with a single hit.

For those of us that can't read Spanish, can you cover the difference between a unit of 10 and a unit of 20?

Talos and Cronos are supposed to be unique, they are supposed to represent the absolute pinacle of ingenuity of the Haemonculus that created them and their vision for perfection. It's problem is it's rules were written by an idiot, giving it the ability to heal models around it by killing the enemy is cool, giving it no ability to kill enemy models makes it assinine nonsense.

Basically if you have 10-19 Wyches, you can have ONE of each weapon a la Karadorn style. If you have 20, you can have 2 of each weapon.

 Galas wrote:
Basically if you have 10-19 Wyches, you can have ONE of each weapon a la Karadorn style. If you have 20, you can have 2 of each weapon.

Well, that's annoying. Though probably not actually that big a deal. Removes some fluff options (you might have a squad that favors hydra gauntlets or whatever for some reason). Makes it a little tougher to keep the enemy within range of at least one shardnet. But the ability to spam a bunch of a single wych weapon wasn't really the bread and butter of wyches. (Well, maybe shardnets.) Probably a bad, dumb move by GW, but also probably not worth losing sleep over.

I was pleasantly surprised by the crusade rules they previewed. Those actually have me way more excited about the 'dex than any of the mechanics they previewed.

I have just noticed that here the phantasm grenade launcher is correctly printed. Now it makes much more sense, rolling 2d6 per hit to inflict mortal wounds.

Really annoying you can't take Wych weapons in a squad of 5.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Basically if you have 10-19 Wyches, you can have ONE of each weapon a la Karadorn style. If you have 20, you can have 2 of each weapon.

Well, that's annoying. Though probably not actually that big a deal. Removes some fluff options (you might have a squad that favors hydra gauntlets or whatever for some reason). Makes it a little tougher to keep the enemy within range of at least one shardnet. But the ability to spam a bunch of a single wych weapon wasn't really the bread and butter of wyches. (Well, maybe shardnets.) Probably a bad, dumb move by GW, but also probably not worth losing sleep over.

Weirdly, I always thought a selection of weapons was more fluffy, because of their gladiator origins. Removing choice is obvs bad though.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


I'm not actually complaining about this book as a whole and some of those things that you pointed out are fun, Daed (though you sound like my local redshirt when you start hyping up things as fun that already existed in the 8e codex), and I bet DE will be decent and rewarding to play. But the Cronos is still a piece of crap and will only be marginally worth it if it's cheap as hell, which is disappointing.

ETA: I also think Vect is decidedly a sidegrade. Yes, it'll be very nice against Transhuman. But it was also really helpful to just cancel out the Transhuman usage with oldVect and wipe the Bladeguard squad in one go, for example! And by far that's the best case scenario; most strats aren't used 2-3 times per player turn. Even if you tag a strat that's used every turn and leach 4CP out of your opponent... that's really good, don't get me wrong, possibly game changing, but it's not as emphatic and final as oldVect. Again, I'm a fan of this change because I don't think the "counterspell" rule makes sense in 40k like it does in Magic, but I don't think you can say that nuVect is better.

I'm not making claims about cronos. It just has lots of updates and I'll wait to see the rules I'm English.

I'm just hype about how punchy lelith and drazar are along with boats that really seem to have renewed vigor - especially in melee.

I like vect, because it appears to have the ability to screw with lists geared around a particular dynamic.

 harlokin wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Basically if you have 10-19 Wyches, you can have ONE of each weapon a la Karadorn style. If you have 20, you can have 2 of each weapon.

Well, that's annoying. Though probably not actually that big a deal. Removes some fluff options (you might have a squad that favors hydra gauntlets or whatever for some reason). Makes it a little tougher to keep the enemy within range of at least one shardnet. But the ability to spam a bunch of a single wych weapon wasn't really the bread and butter of wyches. (Well, maybe shardnets.) Probably a bad, dumb move by GW, but also probably not worth losing sleep over.

Weirdly, I always thought a selection of weapons was more fluffy, because of their gladiator origins. Removing choice is obvs bad though.

Sure. I could see it go either way. Some fights, you field one of each weapon to give the crowd variety. Other fights, you build up the theme of a squad. "And for those of you who love seeing blood glistening on hydra crystals, have we got a fight for you...!"

I usually tried not to field one of each weapon in a given squad purely because of the number of dice pools I had to resolve when attacking.

I'm just not a fan of having to split up attacks on a ton of different special weapons, if that's the best build for them.

"Ok, here's the attacks for the leader."
"Alright go ahead."
"And here's the attacks for the two with hydra gauntlets."
"Sure."
"And here's the attacks for the two with shardnets..."
"Okay..."
"And here's the flails."
"..."
"Ok, and finally, the attacks with all the rest of the knives."

Especially when the net difference is... negligible.

Oh well. On the flip side, it does remove the issue of wanting all your squads to have max shardnets and needing to buy or convert double the number of boxes just to get the parts for them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I'm just hype about how punchy lelith

Is there some context I'm missing or are you joking? I can't read Spanish so maybe there's some rule that changes things but as far as I can tell she barely manages a primaris killed per combat.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I'm just hype about how punchy lelith

Is there some context I'm missing or are you joking? I can't read Spanish so maybe there's some rule that changes things but as far as I can tell she barely manages a primaris killed per combat.

She does about 3 wounds to MEQ per fight, and only has around a 15% chance of failing to kill one (which would stop her fighting twice).

Which, I'm with you here, Void Dragon. Is not good.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I'm just hype about how punchy lelith

Is there some context I'm missing or are you joking? I can't read Spanish so maybe there's some rule that changes things but as far as I can tell she barely manages a primaris killed per combat.

Fight - kill at least 1 model - consolidate away - wait until end of phase - pile in and fight - consolidate away again. Apparently the "Master" Succubus can do this as well.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I'm just hype about how punchy lelith

Is there some context I'm missing or are you joking? I can't read Spanish so maybe there's some rule that changes things but as far as I can tell she barely manages a primaris killed per combat.

Fight - kill at least 1 model - consolidate away - wait until end of phase - pile in and fight - consolidate away again. Apparently the "Master" Succubus can do this as well.

Apparently this is from a Reddit somewhere:

"There is a Succubus and Haemy equivalent to the Master Archon. Haemy gains an ability to return to life like Saint Celestine, a nasty once-per-battle relic (D3 mortals on 2+, the unit loses Aura abilities and can't benefit from Auras till your next turn) and his Warlord Trait lets him ressurect Wracks, Super-Succubus consolidates at 6' and does not have to finish closer to an enemy models (which is crazy ass balls) brutal Artifact Weapon (+2 S, -4 AP, D2, wounds 6+ ignore invulnerable saves) and a Warlord Trait that allows her to switch out her normal Attacks for 3+number of enemy models 2' around her"



"Lelith has Blade Artists (like all wyches), rerolls hits and wounds against Characters, gets a succubus buff Aura (so basically now named and non-named Characters have an interchangable buff aura, which is awesome), has 4+ inv with -1 to hit when she is hit in CC, sghe consolidates +3' and does not have to consolidate to the nearest enemy and she has No Escape, so enemy units can't escape unless they pass a Ld test.


Drazhar gains Blade Artists (6s to wound gain -1 AP, so he has AP-4 on 6s), he can fight twice EACH FIGHT PHASE. He gets -1 Damage to a minimum of 1 (both shooting and melee), has 4+ inv, has tormentors and allows incubi to reroll 1s to wound.

Urien deals 1 mortal on 6+ to each enemy in Engagment Range at the start of Fight, he ressurects once per battle like Celestine, halves the damage he takes (to a minimum of one), buffs toughness like a normal Haemy, but also buffs Strength and Ld by 1 for covens, so he makes stuff really punchy"

Highlighted the Lelith part for emphasis, but figured I'd leave the other stuff.

Yeah lelith seems dope, her job wont be to kill MEQs but shell be able to cause a lot of disruption by going deep in the enemy army to lock down key pieces

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I'm just hype about how punchy lelith

Is there some context I'm missing or are you joking? I can't read Spanish so maybe there's some rule that changes things but as far as I can tell she barely manages a primaris killed per combat.

Fight - kill at least 1 model - consolidate away - wait until end of phase - pile in and fight - consolidate away again. Apparently the "Master" Succubus can do this as well.

I prefer the Master Succubus build in this case which is 15pts cheaper than Lelith. Both can have 8 attacks on the charge, both can use the warlord trait for 6's to hit= 3 hits, both will have reroll 1's to wound but Lelith hits at S4, -3, 1D and the Succubus with the relic glaive hits at S5, -3, 2D and 6's to wound ignore invulns and has the same consolidate 6" in any direction ability. If you didn't kill the unit you charged, just consolidate over 1" away from them then use the Cult of Strife fight twice strat to go back in and finish them off. Sure you're using a strat but Lelith has to have the right ability chosen that turn to fight twice as well.

Lelith's not terrible, but for 10-15pts cheaper a Master Succubus does the same thing much better and has a much higher chance of killing characters.

 Imateria wrote:

I prefer the Master Succubus build in this case which is 15pts cheaper than Lelith. Both can have 8 attacks on the charge, both can use the warlord trait for 6's to hit= 3 hits, both will have reroll 1's to wound but Lelith hits at S4, -3, 1D and the Succubus with the relic glaive hits at S5, -3, 2D and 6's to wound ignore invulns and has the same consolidate 6" in any direction ability. If you didn't kill the unit you charged, just consolidate over 1" away from them then use the Cult of Strife fight twice strat to go back in and finish them off. Sure you're using a strat but Lelith has to have the right ability chosen that turn to fight twice as well.

Lelith's not terrible, but for 10-15pts cheaper a Master Succubus does the same thing much better and has a much higher chance of killing characters.

Fair points. Relic and strat though. Isn't there a +3A WLT, too? Though...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

I prefer the Master Succubus build in this case which is 15pts cheaper than Lelith. Both can have 8 attacks on the charge, both can use the warlord trait for 6's to hit= 3 hits, both will have reroll 1's to wound but Lelith hits at S4, -3, 1D and the Succubus with the relic glaive hits at S5, -3, 2D and 6's to wound ignore invulns and has the same consolidate 6" in any direction ability. If you didn't kill the unit you charged, just consolidate over 1" away from them then use the Cult of Strife fight twice strat to go back in and finish them off. Sure you're using a strat but Lelith has to have the right ability chosen that turn to fight twice as well.

Lelith's not terrible, but for 10-15pts cheaper a Master Succubus does the same thing much better and has a much higher chance of killing characters.

Fair points. Relic and strat though. Isn't there a +3A WLT, too? Though...

Spoiler:

I think thats the Warlord trait I referenced. It's also Leliths fixed warlord trait so you'd need two Cult of Strife detachments and only 1 of them is going to get it.

 Imateria wrote:

I think thats the Warlord trait I referenced. It's also Leliths fixed warlord trait so you'd need two Cult of Strife detachments and only 1 of them is going to get it.

Ahh gotcha.

Am I right in thinking that DE characters no longer buff themselves with their own auras?

In which case the Archon's aura affects, what, all of 2 units in the entire book?

Actually in a non-meme way suspect the Cronos may see play. Mainly because of how the meta is so much more assault focused - and in turn, DE are likely to be assault focused.

Its probably not an auto-take, and there remain issues of 6" auras versus advance and charge leaps across the table - but 75/85 points (gun's value is probably debatable) for a reroll 1s to wound on various things seems acceptable.
Sure your opponent can go and kill it - but its a not a trivial clear for that many points.

Admittedly people said this back in 8th - and I feel it was comprehensively disproven. But the game was quite different.