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 Xenomancers wrote:
The same size but he is wearing light plate armor?

This will be the last post I make on this as we're already too far into uninteresting stuff. Look at the width of your leg. Then look at the width of your leg when you squat. It becomes wider. Same deal with her left calf being pronounced when her right is not. They're in different phases of movement.

yukishiro1 wrote:
You're being very insulting for no real reason here. Whether or not you agree with the point, it is really uncalled for to jump straight to name-calling. The toxicity here is ironically (though not untypically for this forum) coming almost exclusively from the people who want to shut down criticism of the model, not those making the criticism. And that remains true regardless of what may happen on the rest of the internet.

Can we please treat one another with a little more respect? Just because someone thinks the model does a bad job of reflecting the character doesn't make them an incel and it doesn't justify personal attacks.

What name did I call anybody? I pointed out a similarity between these 'debates' and the behaviors of certain anime fans which make very similar arguments about their favorite characters (a.k.a. waifus) and the various figurines made out of them.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah I'll just shut it down right now. It is not about that. I thought I made that clear when I said it could be a male eldar model and I'd still have the same opinion.

Have you ever actually made such an opinion known though and do you expect the GW staff to ever write about a male model being 'lithe' and 'sensuous' for you to even make these arguments about.

Also, get a pose drawing book or 3d modeling aid and look at poses like hers and see how they affect the size and shape of muscle groups. I think you'll find that there's nothing wrong with her build.

Your job as a modeler is to make the model appealing and look true to form. Not to put the model into bad positions which make it look less true to form (not even saying that is a good argument ether). Cause eldar are even described as looking quite "Alien" as they move while they look quite "humanoid" at first glance. We can't even claim to know how their musculature works.

The models is Fugly man. Even more fugly than the last one. I get it's tough to get the ferocious but slender look right in plastic with no motion but they nailed it with drazar if you ask me.

Can I just chip in that I definitely do not like the new Drazhar model. Its just Klaivex+1 on a scenic base and therefore incredibly boring.

Like... whatever that new Ultramarine was that came out a few weeks ago. No one is going to remember that Uriel Ventris model in 20 years time set against the trillion basically identical Space Marine characters.

Love it or loathe it, the new Lelith is at least very clearly a distinct thing in itself, rather than just "we took the existing Succubus, or whatever you can do with the Wych squad and gave her two knives cos she has two knives and big hair".

Lore can go all over the place - but all the way back in third I thought the idea was that DE were meant to be bigger/stronger/faster than regular CWE - this being the 10,000 year trade off for the atrophication of their psychic abilities. Especially when dosing up on pain and suffering. But things have probably changed since then.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

What name did I call anybody? I pointed out a similarity between these 'debates' and the behaviors of certain anime fans which make very similar arguments about their favorite characters (a.k.a. waifus) and the various figurines made out of them.

Oh come on, at least own your rudeness if you're going to be rude, don't try to weasel your way out of it afterward. You were very much insulting the guy for no real reason. Nothing he said was remotely like the barbs you were hurling around about panty-flashing and waifus. There was no "similarity." If you disagree with his argument by all means do so, but do so without insinuating he's some sort of weird creepy incel. It's just pathetic and nasty and it poisons the whole tone of the conversation.

Reasoned adults can disagree about a model without feeling the need to speculate about how anyone who thinks the other way must be some sort of weird pervert.




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Tyel wrote:


Lore can go all over the place - but all the way back in third I thought the idea was that DE were meant to be bigger/stronger/faster than regular CWE - this being the 10,000 year trade off for the atrophication of their psychic abilities. Especially when dosing up on pain and suffering. But things have probably changed since then.

I think I remember that too, but we're talking about one particular character here, not the race as a whole, and Lelith has always been described consistently as far as I remember. Again to quote the 8th edition codex:

Lelith is grace embodied, her movements hypnotic, sensual and spellbinding

Maybe some people in this thread really think that model is "grace embodied," "hypnotic," "sensual" and "spellbinding," but if so, they haven't actually said so here, and, although there's no accounting for taste, I find it unlikely anybody actually does.

Now it's difficult to show grace on a static model, don't get me wrong. But GW has shown they can do it in the past much better than they have in this model.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
It's worth bearing in mind that while Kabalites are skinny, Wyches are less so, and are definitely much more muscly cos of all the roids.

Yeah but her whole thing is she doesn't take roids. She's supposed to be even thinner and more elegant and lithe and beautiful than normal Eldar. Instead she looks like she just got done with a course from the Russian Olympic team, if you know what I mean.

I don't think it has anything to do with female models generally, but this particular model really fails to convey what the lore for this particular being is supposed to be.

Human beauty =/= Eldar beauty. This would be like complaining the tits on a female ork weren't big enough.

So you are arguing that although that model isn't what we would consider "grace embodied," "hypnotic," "sensual" and "spellbinding," it is the embodiment of all those things to eldar? Like they just have really different and in some ways opposite ideas than we do about what each of those words means? So like all the past models that we thought were graceful, actually the eldar themselves thought were a bunch of potatoes, and the ones we thought were potatoey, the eldar themselves were actually like "what grace, what poise, what beauty!?"

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

Human beauty =/= Eldar beauty. This would be like complaining the tits on a female ork weren't big enough.

Horrible argument, athletic and muscled women are considered hot for human standards.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Oh come on, at least own your rudeness if you're going to be rude, don't try to weasel your way out of it afterward. You were very much insulting the guy for no real reason. Nothing he said was remotely like the barbs you were hurling around about panty-flashing and waifus. There was no "similarity." If you disagree with his argument by all means do so, but do so without insinuating he's some sort of weird creepy incel. It's just pathetic and nasty and it poisons the whole tone of the conversation.

This entire conversation is that the female elf model isn't built like a runway model and that this somehow makes her less attractive. It's entirely fair to compare it to anime nerds complaining that a character wasn't rendered hot enough in plastic for their figurine. I feel like this goes double when, in spite of all the claims, we never see these arguments pop up around singular male sculpts with people digging through the flavor text to find every little flaw in a character's rendering in plastic.

 Tyran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Human beauty =/= Eldar beauty. This would be like complaining the tits on a female ork weren't big enough.

Horrible argument, athletic and muscled women are considered hot for human standards.

For many, not for all. However considering that orks are fungus just patterned after mammals...

So ignoring whether or not a new model accurately reflects the in-universe beauty standards for her race for a moment, how good would a pure Cabal force be with this new Dex? While I generally don't like (pretend) Elves I have to say DE look really interesting with their playstyle of stuffing everything in transports and zooming around the map. Since I don't have a lot of money to burn at the moment, I was eyeing the new Combat Patrol to get a start on a Cabal army but I'm not familiar with DE at all. No one here plays (Dark) Eldar and as such I lack the experience to judge the new codex for myself.

 Castozor wrote:
So ignoring whether or not a new model accurately reflects the in-universe beauty standards for her race for a moment, how good would a pure Cabal force be with this new Dex? While I generally don't like (pretend) Elves I have to say DE look really interesting with their playstyle of stuffing everything in transports and zooming around the map. Since I don't have a lot of money to burn at the moment, I was eyeing the new Combat Patrol to get a start on a Cabal army but I'm not familiar with DE at all. No one here plays (Dark) Eldar and as such I lack the experience to judge the new codex for myself.

It feels like a codex that has a good baseline power level so it will probably take effort (and maxing out on beasts) to make a list that's actually weak. That said, their unique list building options with 'Real Space Raiders' could be tricky and requires you to get 6 different unique kits to even start one so that could be a turn-off for that kind of build.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
[
This entire conversation is that the female elf model isn't built like a runway model and that this somehow makes her less attractive.

It's really not. It's about a character that is explicitly and unambiguously supposed to be gorgeous suddenly looking like a bulgarian shot-putter.

No, that wasn't the conversation at all. You can "feel" whatever you want, accusing him of being some weird creepy pervert - which is absolutely what you did with that comment, you're not fooling anyone - was way out of line and not even remotely "fair" based on what he had said in the thread. But I'm clearly not making any headway here, so I'll quit while I'm behind.

Your claim that we never see it with male models is also verifiably wrong. People complaining about the weird constipated faces of a lot of GW's male characters is almost a meme at this point, and there was a big debate on the internet about Guilliman's model when it came out. See this thread, for example: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/719479.page

 BertBert wrote:
It's really not. It's about a character that is explicitly and unambiguously supposed to be gorgeous suddenly looking like a bulgarian shot-putter.

She doesn't look any bigger than any of the female UFC fighters they probably modeled her off of and I personally think she looks plenty quick and just as attractive as a queen bitch warrior ought to look.

 Castozor wrote:
So ignoring whether or not a new model accurately reflects the in-universe beauty standards for her race for a moment, how good would a pure Cabal force be with this new Dex? While I generally don't like (pretend) Elves I have to say DE look really interesting with their playstyle of stuffing everything in transports and zooming around the map. Since I don't have a lot of money to burn at the moment, I was eyeing the new Combat Patrol to get a start on a Cabal army but I'm not familiar with DE at all. No one here plays (Dark) Eldar and as such I lack the experience to judge the new codex for myself.

A pure Kabal force could be pretty good (particularly with Incubi), and the Combat Patrol Box has most of everything you'd want to start with.

yukishiro1 wrote:
No, that wasn't the conversation at all. You can "feel" whatever you want, accusing him of being some weird creepy pervert - which is absolutely what you did with that comment, you're not fooling anyone - was way out of line and not even remotely "fair" based on what he had said in the thread. But I'm clearly not making any headway here, so I'll quit while I'm behind.

Your claim that we never see it with male models is also verifiably wrong. People complaining about the weird constipated faces of a lot of GW's male characters is almost a meme at this point, and there was a big debate on the internet about Guilliman's model when it came out. See this thread, for example: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/719479.page

Wierd that nobody commented that his armor doesn't show off his bulge enough or about how he'd look prettier if they made him thinner... The comments about Lelith specifically calls out her breasts, thighs, stomach and complains in literal quotes that she doesn't look sensual enough. There wasn't a single discussion of how sexually attractive Big G is only about his over-detailed armor and people disliking his face. That's the difference.

 BertBert wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
[
This entire conversation is that the female elf model isn't built like a runway model and that this somehow makes her less attractive.

It's really not. It's about a character that is explicitly and unambiguously supposed to be gorgeous suddenly looking like a bulgarian shot-putter.

Barring not using the term 'runway model' you're entirely agreeing with Canadian 5th. You're explicitly claiming that Bulgarian shot-putters are 'less attractive' by a negative comparison to 'gorgeous.'

 harlokin wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
So ignoring whether or not a new model accurately reflects the in-universe beauty standards for her race for a moment, how good would a pure Cabal force be with this new Dex? While I generally don't like (pretend) Elves I have to say DE look really interesting with their playstyle of stuffing everything in transports and zooming around the map. Since I don't have a lot of money to burn at the moment, I was eyeing the new Combat Patrol to get a start on a Cabal army but I'm not familiar with DE at all. No one here plays (Dark) Eldar and as such I lack the experience to judge the new codex for myself.

A pure Kabal force could be pretty good (particularly with Incubi), and the Combat Patrol Box has most of everything you'd want to start with.

Thank you and Canadian 5th for the swift responses. Would you recommend to get the SC twice or would you look into other options to build a small (1000 to 1500) army fast? From the few (8th edition) Bat Reps I watched the small craft (venoms?) seemed to feature heavily, but I'm not sure how they are holding up and what units are must haves to have appropriate answers to enemy armour/infantry/etc.

Is Guilliman known for his attractiveness and sensuality? Do you think the fact that he isn't might be the reason that wasn't the focus of the discussion? "Sensual" comes from GW's own description of the character, not anyone else's. Lelith's sensuality is literally what GW itself told us the character is all about, so of course people are going to mention it.

You seem to have an axe to grind against hypothetical people and you are trying to force the comments of actual people here into your hypothetical square peg so you shoot them down. It's a poor way to have a discussion.

Ironically, it seems like if you have reason to be angry with anyone here, you should be angry at GW for its flavor text for the character, not with people who say that the model doesn't reflect it.



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 Castozor wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
So ignoring whether or not a new model accurately reflects the in-universe beauty standards for her race for a moment, how good would a pure Cabal force be with this new Dex? While I generally don't like (pretend) Elves I have to say DE look really interesting with their playstyle of stuffing everything in transports and zooming around the map. Since I don't have a lot of money to burn at the moment, I was eyeing the new Combat Patrol to get a start on a Cabal army but I'm not familiar with DE at all. No one here plays (Dark) Eldar and as such I lack the experience to judge the new codex for myself.

A pure Kabal force could be pretty good (particularly with Incubi), and the Combat Patrol Box has most of everything you'd want to start with.

Thank you and Canadian 5th for the swift responses. Would you recommend to get the SC twice or would you look into other options to build a small (1000 to 1500) army fast? From the few (8th edition) Bat Reps I watched the small craft (venoms?) seemed to feature heavily, but I'm not sure how they are holding up and what units are must haves to have appropriate answers to enemy armour/infantry/etc.

If you're going for a small army, I wouldn't try to run an army that has all three subfactions in it right away. I'd build up a force of one single subfaction - say 500 points - then do the same for one more. Once you have 1000 points of two subfactions, you can then decide how you want to build things out further, whether that's expanding one of the 500 points you already have or getting another 500 points of the last sub-faction.

Incubi are also a good bet, they're very good in the new book and can go in any subfaction detachment, so they'll always have a place in your army.

 Castozor wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
So ignoring whether or not a new model accurately reflects the in-universe beauty standards for her race for a moment, how good would a pure Cabal force be with this new Dex? While I generally don't like (pretend) Elves I have to say DE look really interesting with their playstyle of stuffing everything in transports and zooming around the map. Since I don't have a lot of money to burn at the moment, I was eyeing the new Combat Patrol to get a start on a Cabal army but I'm not familiar with DE at all. No one here plays (Dark) Eldar and as such I lack the experience to judge the new codex for myself.

A pure Kabal force could be pretty good (particularly with Incubi), and the Combat Patrol Box has most of everything you'd want to start with.

Thank you and Canadian 5th for the swift responses. Would you recommend to get the SC twice or would you look into other options to build a small (1000 to 1500) army fast? From the few (8th edition) Bat Reps I watched the small craft (venoms?) seemed to feature heavily, but I'm not sure how they are holding up and what units are must haves to have appropriate answers to enemy armour/infantry/etc.

If you want to field a pure Kabal force, I'd probably recommend two of the Combat Patrol boxes. Venoms are also good, and most Drukhari players will have a few as they were better than Raiders in 8th edition. It's very early days, but it looks like Raiders are possibly slighly better for Kabal, subject to the obessions you take. Venoms tend to be quite cheap on ebay as they featured in quite a few of the previous boxes.

SC comes with Cult, not Kabal (though the Venom can work for either, obviously).

One SC: Drukhari and one of the new Combat Patrol would be a pretty good start, that gives you the stuff to run a double patrol from Kabal and Cult, and then you can work from there.

 Castozor wrote:
Thank you and Canadian 5th for the swift responses. Would you recommend to get the SC twice or would you look into other options to build a small (1000 to 1500) army fast? From the few (8th edition) Bat Reps I watched the small craft (venoms?) seemed to feature heavily, but I'm not sure how they are holding up and what units are must haves to have appropriate answers to enemy armour/infantry/etc.

If your main concern is that you don't want to buy models that will be weak on the tabletop I'd wait a couple of weeks, let people play the book, and then make purchases. That should at least get you a good idea of what is solid and what's junk.

The start collecting boxes will disappear soon if they haven't already. CP boxes replace them.

If you can still get the SC, SNAP THAT UP!

It combos beautifully with the CP box if you want wyches and kabals. The advice to grow just one subfaction is good advice though.

If the SC disappears, the DE half of Piety and Pain is just as good or better- of course, it's sold out too, so there's that.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Is Guilliman known for his attractiveness and sensuality? Do you think the fact that he isn't might be the reason that wasn't the focus of the discussion? "Sensual" comes from GW's own description of the character, not anyone else's. Lelith's sensuality is literally what GW itself told us the character is all about, so of course people are going to mention it.

You seem to have an axe to grind against hypothetical people and you are trying to force the comments of actual people here into your hypothetical square peg so you shoot them down. It's a poor way to have a discussion.

Ironically, it seems like if you have reason to be angry with anyone here, you should be angry at GW for its flavor text for the character, not with people who say that the model doesn't reflect it.

What about her current sculpt makes Lelith less sensual? Can women not be strong and sensual or...?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Is Guilliman known for his attractiveness and sensuality? Do you think the fact that he isn't might be the reason that wasn't the focus of the discussion? "Sensual" comes from GW's own description of the character, not anyone else's. Lelith's sensuality is literally what GW itself told us the character is all about, so of course people are going to mention it.

You seem to have an axe to grind against hypothetical people and you are trying to force the comments of actual people here into your hypothetical square peg so you shoot them down. It's a poor way to have a discussion.

Ironically, it seems like if you have reason to be angry with anyone here, you should be angry at GW for its flavor text for the character, not with people who say that the model doesn't reflect it.

What about her current sculpt makes Lelith less sensual? Can women not be strong and sensual or...?

nonono, the only REAL sensual models are the ones from Raging Heroes you see.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Is Guilliman known for his attractiveness and sensuality? Do you think the fact that he isn't might be the reason that wasn't the focus of the discussion? "Sensual" comes from GW's own description of the character, not anyone else's. Lelith's sensuality is literally what GW itself told us the character is all about, so of course people are going to mention it.

You seem to have an axe to grind against hypothetical people and you are trying to force the comments of actual people here into your hypothetical square peg so you shoot them down. It's a poor way to have a discussion.

Ironically, it seems like if you have reason to be angry with anyone here, you should be angry at GW for its flavor text for the character, not with people who say that the model doesn't reflect it.

What about her current sculpt makes Lelith less sensual? Can women not be strong and sensual or...?

Do you think that model looks, in GW's words: "grace embodied," "hypnotic," "sensual" and "spellbinding?" I've asked the thread this three times now, and got zero responses from anyone. I have to assume that's because nobody actually does think that model is "grace embodied." She looks angry and/or constipated. Nothing about that model is graceful, hypnotic, sensual or spellbinding. If you want a model that looks graceful, hypnotic, sensual and spellbinding, look up the Keeper of Secrets. That hits all those notes, this model hits none.

Nobody said women can't be strong and sensual except you. Please cut the straw men, it's a waste of everyone's time. The issue is that this sculpt does not look like "grace embodied," "hypnotic," "sensual" and "spellbinding," not that it's impossible for a muscular woman to be those things in theory.

I'll see if I can snatch up an old SC, I think one of our online retailers still has one in stock. I'm not overly concerned with "weaker" options I just don't want to get utter trash ones. I decided Kabal mostly because they have the best (IMO) sculpts and the new CP seems like insane value for GW standards.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Is Guilliman known for his attractiveness and sensuality? Do you think the fact that he isn't might be the reason that wasn't the focus of the discussion? "Sensual" comes from GW's own description of the character, not anyone else's. Lelith's sensuality is literally what GW itself told us the character is all about, so of course people are going to mention it.

You seem to have an axe to grind against hypothetical people and you are trying to force the comments of actual people here into your hypothetical square peg so you shoot them down. It's a poor way to have a discussion.

Ironically, it seems like if you have reason to be angry with anyone here, you should be angry at GW for its flavor text for the character, not with people who say that the model doesn't reflect it.

What about her current sculpt makes Lelith less sensual? Can women not be strong and sensual or...?

Do you think that model looks, in GW's words: "grace embodied," "hypnotic," "sensual" and "spellbinding?" I've asked the thread this three times now, and got zero responses from anyone. I have to assume that's because nobody actually does think that model is "grace embodied." She looks angry and/or constipated. Nothing about that model is graceful, hypnotic, sensual or spellbinding. If you want a model that looks graceful, hypnotic, sensual and spellbinding, look up the Keeper of Secrets. That hits all those notes, this model hits none.

Nobody said women can't be strong and sensual except you. Please cut the straw men, it's a waste of everyone's time. The issue is that this sculpt does not look like "grace embodied," "hypnotic," "sensual" and "spellbinding," not that it's impossible for a muscular woman to be those things in theory.

she fits that description better than her old model IMO

Holy strawman, Herzog.

I'll turn the question around, what makes Lelith sensual? Yukishiro asked that awhile ago at least a couple times and I didn't see a good response (Canadian, you said something about "queen b***h" which is kind of ironic in this thread). Again, as was said, aesthetics are subjective, but I don't think you have to be an art history major to say this sculpt is less sensual than the last one. Again, the Keeper resculpt and several other Slaaneshi models are a much better example of that.


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 VladimirHerzog wrote:


she fits that description better than her old model IMO

Please explain why you feel that way.