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 Xenomancers wrote:

Cronch wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Paint your army if you don't want to lose points.

Here's the deal though. Some people paint slow. For whatever reason, they just do.
What the 10point rule does is penalize people who paint slow but want to paint the models well, and incentivizes you to do a slapdash job just to satisfy the rule. Don't bother with primer, don't bother with layering, just slap some contrasts on bare plastic and done, your army is instantly "better experience" to play against than an army with 30 well-painted models and 30 primed models waiting to be painted. Which...really seems backward to me? Why should I bother trying to be better at painting if the game penalizes me for it?

Well IDK about you but most of the players I play with have fun with this rule and also use it to encourage people to paint. If your army is 85% painted and you are showing real effort - then ofc you count as a painted army.

Not RAW. If you have to keep making special exceptions and house rule something, the core aspect is bad to begin with.

Start small, at about 500 points or so. Don't play until it's done, devote the time to painting instead. If you've got a buddy who's also working on something, invite him over for a painting session. Play with your finished 500 points and grow from there.

This is how you do it.

Cebalrai wrote:
Start small, at about 500 points or so. Don't play until it's done, devote the time to painting instead. If you've got a buddy who's also working on something, invite him over for a painting session. Play with your finished 500 points and grow from there.

This is how you do it.

Thread closed. Mic Drop.

Cebalrai wrote:
Start small, at about 500 points or so. Don't play until it's done, devote the time to painting instead. If you've got a buddy who's also working on something, invite him over for a painting session. Play with your finished 500 points and grow from there.

This is how you do it.

According to my own experiences, this is everything BUT the majoritys opinion. Most players would be more than happy to field that one or two extra unpainted minis in a battle just to increase the point max value of the entire game, if we're talking low point battles like 500 or 1000.

I used to do what you said, in fact my first battle was 500 points and everything was painted, but people kept goading me in to using my unfinished models just to go from maybe 700 points to a 1000. People i meet are only ever friendly and would always support new players trying to get in to the game.

Building, painting and playing goes hand in hand and should be done simultaneously imo.

One should be allowed to play with unpainted miniatures, especially when one is new. And most players ive met (in fact all of em) would allow this. Only the elitists who has played for years and have fully painted armies with a touch of slanneshi pride over it, would avoid playing in such a scenario.


And even then, painting a 500 point army still takes a bit of time if you dont want your minatures to look like trash. its like a warboss, 30 boyz and a trukk, + something more. thats not just a sweep with a brush and done. and telling someone they cant play the game untill they've done this, is counter intuitive for newer players who cant wait to field their army. Luckily most people understand this and arent elitists.


Is it way cooler to fight with painted armies? sure. But it wouldnt stop me from playing if someone dont have a fully painted army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Cebalrai wrote:
Start small, at about 500 points or so. Don't play until it's done, devote the time to painting instead. If you've got a buddy who's also working on something, invite him over for a painting session. Play with your finished 500 points and grow from there.

This is how you do it.

Thread closed. Mic Drop.

I dont feel like a single persons opinion means the entire debate is over and he won everything, like he won the internet or something.

If this thread were to be closed, which would be fine i guess, its because we've all said basically everything there is to say. including me. we're going in circles, once again, including myself.

Cebalrai wrote:
Start small, at about 500 points or so. Don't play until it's done, devote the time to painting instead. If you've got a buddy who's also working on something, invite him over for a painting session. Play with your finished 500 points and grow from there.

This is how you do it.

When I started, GW had Sunday beginners. You know what you used? Maybe one unit or so in a group game. You built up your forces week to week and weren't expected to be playing large games on your own. Saturdays were roughly the same, you could organise larger games but nobody (Not even today. I say today, but the last time I could actually play games in my local GW in the before times, games were generally limited to 1500pts due to space constraints) played 2k all the time, every time.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Cronch wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Paint your army if you don't want to lose points.

Here's the deal though. Some people paint slow. For whatever reason, they just do.
What the 10point rule does is penalize people who paint slow but want to paint the models well, and incentivizes you to do a slapdash job just to satisfy the rule. Don't bother with primer, don't bother with layering, just slap some contrasts on bare plastic and done, your army is instantly "better experience" to play against than an army with 30 well-painted models and 30 primed models waiting to be painted. Which...really seems backward to me? Why should I bother trying to be better at painting if the game penalizes me for it?

Well IDK about you but most of the players I play with have fun with this rule and also use it to encourage people to paint. If your army is 85% painted and you are showing real effort - then ofc you count as a painted army.

Not RAW. If you have to keep making special exceptions and house rule something, the core aspect is bad to begin with.

Not really. I don't have to house rule anything. Want to use match play rules - RAW is you get 10 points for painted army. The game isn't designed to be played with D bags or sticklers ether. The rule at it's core is good - everyone enjoys playing with and against painted armies more. This encourages that. As a non D bag myself - if I see real effort - I will not deduct the points.

Cebalrai wrote:
Start small, at about 500 points or so. Don't play until it's done, devote the time to painting instead. If you've got a buddy who's also working on something, invite him over for a painting session. Play with your finished 500 points and grow from there.

This is how you do it.

Oh. Oh well.
{shrugs} I'll just keep doing my hobby the same as I've been doing it all these years. Build, play, & paint as the mood/inspiration/time/alignment of stars/etc permits.
Figure as it's been working for me perfectly fine for 30+ years, there's no reason to change at this late date....

Alternatively, play any other GW game, since they don't have the bizarre rule in it. Apparently AoS players either are better human beings than 40k players and have painted armies right from the start, or...idk, my guess is that. AoS or even Necromunda players are just better class of people according to GW, since they don't need the rule to "guide" them.

Don’t fix what isn’t broken.
Exalted.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Cronch wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Paint your army if you don't want to lose points.

Here's the deal though. Some people paint slow. For whatever reason, they just do.
What the 10point rule does is penalize people who paint slow but want to paint the models well, and incentivizes you to do a slapdash job just to satisfy the rule. Don't bother with primer, don't bother with layering, just slap some contrasts on bare plastic and done, your army is instantly "better experience" to play against than an army with 30 well-painted models and 30 primed models waiting to be painted. Which...really seems backward to me? Why should I bother trying to be better at painting if the game penalizes me for it?

Well IDK about you but most of the players I play with have fun with this rule and also use it to encourage people to paint. If your army is 85% painted and you are showing real effort - then ofc you count as a painted army.

Not RAW. If you have to keep making special exceptions and house rule something, the core aspect is bad to begin with.

Not really. I don't have to house rule anything. Want to use match play rules - RAW is you get 10 points for painted army. The game isn't designed to be played with D bags or sticklers ether. The rule at it's core is good - everyone enjoys playing with and against painted armies more. This encourages that. As a non D bag myself - if I see real effort - I will not deduct the points.

It’s largely encouraged harassment , and turned the discussion online more toxic sounding it. The judgment of effort for points in a game is just that from where I am on this. Already let slide as the rule as held is bad.

ccs wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

And GW has added a rule to remind people what sort of hobby they have chosen.

Yep, in only 2/3 of the play styles in one edition of one of their many games....

It is only a reminder.

Sans concerns about disability, or testing newly acquired units in a casual game, again, that is the hobbyist with whom I would engage, the one who paints and takes the modeling as seriously as the rest of it... for me, more so.

Others wanting to play with sprues stood up on bases to stand in for whatever, or chits or corks or bottle caps, that is their business, how they spend their time.

Won’t get me to a table, tho.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Not really. I don't have to house rule anything. Want to use match play rules - RAW is you get 10 points for painted army. The game isn't designed to be played with D bags or sticklers ether. The rule at it's core is good - everyone enjoys playing with and against painted armies more. This encourages that. As a non D bag myself - if I see real effort - I will not deduct the points.

Says the guy who's judging what someone elses "real effort" is....

ccs wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Not really. I don't have to house rule anything. Want to use match play rules - RAW is you get 10 points for painted army. The game isn't designed to be played with D bags or sticklers ether. The rule at it's core is good - everyone enjoys playing with and against painted armies more. This encourages that. As a non D bag myself - if I see real effort - I will not deduct the points.

Says the guy who's judging what someone elses "real effort" is....

I am dumbfounded. You must be misunderstanding me. I am literally saying people should be lenient with the implementation of the 10 points rule. Effort over RAW in this case. Are they trying to paint their army essentially. If the answer is no...they get no points.

 Xenomancers wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Not really. I don't have to house rule anything. Want to use match play rules - RAW is you get 10 points for painted army. The game isn't designed to be played with D bags or sticklers ether. The rule at it's core is good - everyone enjoys playing with and against painted armies more. This encourages that. As a non D bag myself - if I see real effort - I will not deduct the points.

Says the guy who's judging what someone elses "real effort" is....

I am dumbfounded. You must be misunderstanding me. I am literally saying people should be lenient with the implementation of the 10 points rule. Effort over RAW in this case. Are they trying to paint their army essentially. If the answer is no...they get no points.

I agree people are complaining about having to paint my army fast!!!! It will look terrible!!!! My old store years ago even before this rule was a thing encouraged painted armies which was literally prime, base, and a wash or layer even with my 45 min to 1 hour a night I devote to painting after my work and family is handled I can get a squad of 5-10 intercessors painted up to my standard. It’s just choosing other things over painting like when I choose sleep or video games I lose paint time but even chipping at a small Boulder you can get your stuff painted up and the effort I take I’m sorry I’m getting those 10 points...

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Cebalrai wrote:
Start small, at about 500 points or so. Don't play until it's done, devote the time to painting instead. If you've got a buddy who's also working on something, invite him over for a painting session. Play with your finished 500 points and grow from there.

This is how you do it.

Thread closed. Mic Drop.

Or, and just think about this for a second...how about we let people do what the hell the want with their plastic toys? If someone wants to play first, then paint, why should we stop them, or make it harder?

Besides the eternal will of the online gatekeeper of course.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Cebalrai wrote:
Start small, at about 500 points or so. Don't play until it's done, devote the time to painting instead. If you've got a buddy who's also working on something, invite him over for a painting session. Play with your finished 500 points and grow from there.

This is how you do it.

Thread closed. Mic Drop.

Or, and just think about this for a second...how about we let people do what the hell the want with their plastic toys? If someone wants to play first, then paint, why should we stop them, or make it harder?

Besides the eternal will of the online gatekeeper of course.

It is actually a GW rule. Why should we follow any GW rule but not this one?

Beardedragon wrote:

Cebalrai wrote:
Start small, at about 500 points or so. Don't play until it's done, devote the time to painting instead. If you've got a buddy who's also working on something, invite him over for a painting session. Play with your finished 500 points and grow from there.

This is how you do it.

According to my own experiences, this is everything BUT the majoritys opinion. Most players would be more than happy to field that one or two extra unpainted minis in a battle just to increase the point max value of the entire game, if we're talking low point battles like 500 or 1000.

I used to do what you said, in fact my first battle was 500 points and everything was painted, but people kept goading me in to using my unfinished models just to go from maybe 700 points to a 1000. People i meet are only ever friendly and would always support new players trying to get in to the game.

Building, painting and playing goes hand in hand and should be done simultaneously imo.

One should be allowed to play with unpainted miniatures, especially when one is new. And most players ive met (in fact all of em) would allow this. Only the elitists who has played for years and have fully painted armies with a touch of slanneshi pride over it, would avoid playing in such a scenario.

And even then, painting a 500 point army still takes a bit of time if you dont want your minatures to look like trash. its like a warboss, 30 boyz and a trukk, + something more. thats not just a sweep with a brush and done. and telling someone they cant play the game untill they've done this, is counter intuitive for newer players who cant wait to field their army. Luckily most people understand this and arent elitists.

Is it way cooler to fight with painted armies? sure. But it wouldnt stop me from playing if someone dont have a fully painted army.

You have described the best of both worlds.

"Wanna play a game?"
"Sure. I only have 500 points fully painted, so how about a Combat Patrol Game?"
"I'd rather play a bigger game. You can use some of your unpainted models."
"I don't really like playing down due to unpainted models."
"Don't worry about it. We can ignore that rule. Do you have enough models for a 1000 point Incursion Game?

 Mmmpi wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Cebalrai wrote:
Start small, at about 500 points or so. Don't play until it's done, devote the time to painting instead. If you've got a buddy who's also working on something, invite him over for a painting session. Play with your finished 500 points and grow from there.

This is how you do it.

Thread closed. Mic Drop.

Or, and just think about this for a second...how about we let people do what the hell the want with their plastic toys? If someone wants to play first, then paint, why should we stop them, or make it harder?

Besides the eternal will of the online gatekeeper of course.

Buy 500 points start small than build up from there... it’s what I did had an army in about 2 weeks.

Stalked21 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Cebalrai wrote:
Start small, at about 500 points or so. Don't play until it's done, devote the time to painting instead. If you've got a buddy who's also working on something, invite him over for a painting session. Play with your finished 500 points and grow from there.

This is how you do it.

Thread closed. Mic Drop.

Or, and just think about this for a second...how about we let people do what the hell the want with their plastic toys? If someone wants to play first, then paint, why should we stop them, or make it harder?

Besides the eternal will of the online gatekeeper of course.

Buy 500 points start small than build up from there... it’s what I did had an army in about 2 weeks.

i mean. what works for one person, doesnt work for everyone else. I cant paint 500 points in 2 weeks. Well i suppose i could but.. i dont want to, it would require a lot of time dedicated to painting over a small amount of time.

Im pretty sure South Park did a religion episode about Gilgameks where they specifically said: What works on planet Gelgamek doesnt necessarily work for people here on earth".
but we can easily turn that over to the warhammer hobby. What works for you, as in painting 500 points in 2 weeks, doesnt necessarily work for everyone else.

I'm a big fan of the 10/100 points for a painted army rule. It doesn't tell you not to play if you aren't painted like the community put up in the past. With the current rule in place, it's much more acceptable to play unpainted even in a mostly painted army community if you are willing to take that points hit. I think this lessens gatekeeping overall.

This sort of encouragement motivates me to paint.

LiMunPai wrote:
I'm a big fan of the 10/100 points for a painted army rule. It doesn't tell you not to play if you aren't painted like the community put up in the past. With the current rule in place, it's much more acceptable to play unpainted even in a mostly painted army community if you are willing to take that points hit. I think this lessens gatekeeping overall.

This sort of encouragement motivates me to paint.

That's a very optimistic take on things.

Just want to point out that AoS had those garbage larping rules when it came out. The community hated it so they stopped including them. Just because GW makes a rule doesn't mean you have to follow it.

Still the thought process that I'm seeing is mind blowing. It's almost like it's expected that people spend hundreds of dollars on minis, spend dozens of hours putting the models together and then spend 5, 10, 20 times as many hours painting the things just so you can have a fair fight in a table top game. It's not quite pay to win but it's sickeningly close to the same mindset of sinking more resources to get an advantage.

Its one thing if this is a private club where you have your own rules and whatnot. If you want to have an exclusive club with its own rules then knock yourselves out with that. You could ban Tau or demand golden demon painting standards for all anybody cares. It's another thing to stack the deck against somebody walking in with their half painted army they have been tinkering with for months because they work a demanding job, have a family to take care of, have hobbies outside of just 40k, and have the audacity to want to play a game of plastic army men pew pew wars at their local game store. I guess it's their own damn fault for being so entitled to think that they shouldn't be at a score disadvantage because they didn't buy enough GW paint and didn't sacrifice time with the kids or let the house fall apart so they could have the time paint the pants on their space marines in two thin costs.

It's easy to say "what's the big deal, it's only 10 VP in a game that doesn't matter, why make this such big stink" but if so then why put into print something that inherently puts somebody at a disadvantage in a game for not having fully painted minis? Why is it such a big deal that this rule needs to be enforced at the expense of somebody who doesn't have a fully painted army? And frankly the excuse for not having a painted army doesn't matter (newbie, busy life,doesn't care about painting, handicap, etc) because at the end of the day it's a rule that puts a demand that people spend a considerable amount of time, effort, ability, and money to do something before being able to have a fair game as per the rules. This isn't a tournament or club, this is for friendly pickup games.

That said I can't wait for 10th when you lose command points for using non official GW models.

 Xenomancers wrote:


Besides the eternal will of the online gatekeeper of course.

It is actually a GW rule. Why should we follow any GW rule but not this one?

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Besides the eternal will of the online gatekeeper of course.

It is actually a GW rule. Why should we follow any GW rule but not this one?

Very few people play 40k by following any GW rule. Americans sure love their house rules, have you heard about the ITC format? Anyone who plays ITC isn't following "any GW rule".

Beardedragon wrote:

Stalked21 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Cebalrai wrote:
Start small, at about 500 points or so. Don't play until it's done, devote the time to painting instead. If you've got a buddy who's also working on something, invite him over for a painting session. Play with your finished 500 points and grow from there.

This is how you do it.

Thread closed. Mic Drop.

Or, and just think about this for a second...how about we let people do what the hell the want with their plastic toys? If someone wants to play first, then paint, why should we stop them, or make it harder?

Besides the eternal will of the online gatekeeper of course.

Buy 500 points start small than build up from there... it’s what I did had an army in about 2 weeks.

i mean. what works for one person, doesnt work for everyone else. I cant paint 500 points in 2 weeks. Well i suppose i could but.. i dont want to, it would require a lot of time dedicated to painting over a small amount of time.

Im pretty sure South Park did a religion episode about Gilgameks where they specifically said: What works on planet Gelgamek doesnt necessarily work for people here on earth".
but we can easily turn that over to the warhammer hobby. What works for you, as in painting 500 points in 2 weeks, doesnt necessarily work for everyone else.

 JNAProductions wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
If playing against a painted army is something you like, presumably yes, you would be the one to decide whether an army is painted to a standard you enjoy playing against. Why wouldn't you be?

I don't know anybody who's like "you know, it's the paint on the models that really makes me want to play, not how that paint makes them look. Dip your models in housepaint for all I care, it's that layer of chemical that does it for me!" If people want to play against painted armies, they presumably want to play against a painted army someone's made a decent effort at, not something someone's technically done the bare minimum on in the most slapdash way possible.

That's different than saying "the highlighting on this guy is bad! I won't play you!" I don't know anyone who assesses quality when deciding whether someone's paint job is good enough to play.

Which is why the RULE is bad.

If you only like playing against well-painted armies, a slapdash, awful paintjob won't make it better just because it's technically there. And likewise, 10 points won't make the game any better-you're not concerned about winning or losing, but the aesthetics.

I have zero issues with someone refusing to play me because my army isn't painted, assuming they're polite about it.
I have zero issues with GW saying "This game is best played with painted minis on a cool table!" or something like that.
I do have an issue with the game being impacted by non-gameplay elements, in a way that doesn't really serve to make anyone happier.

You're preaching to the choir here. I think the implementation is terrible. A rule that encourages you to paint like crap and punishes you for taking the time to paint well is not a good way to encourage painting.

Stalked21 wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

Stalked21 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Cebalrai wrote:
Start small, at about 500 points or so. Don't play until it's done, devote the time to painting instead. If you've got a buddy who's also working on something, invite him over for a painting session. Play with your finished 500 points and grow from there.

This is how you do it.

Thread closed. Mic Drop.

Or, and just think about this for a second...how about we let people do what the hell the want with their plastic toys? If someone wants to play first, then paint, why should we stop them, or make it harder?

Besides the eternal will of the online gatekeeper of course.

Buy 500 points start small than build up from there... it’s what I did had an army in about 2 weeks.

i mean. what works for one person, doesnt work for everyone else. I cant paint 500 points in 2 weeks. Well i suppose i could but.. i dont want to, it would require a lot of time dedicated to painting over a small amount of time.

Im pretty sure South Park did a religion episode about Gilgameks where they specifically said: What works on planet Gelgamek doesnt necessarily work for people here on earth".
but we can easily turn that over to the warhammer hobby. What works for you, as in painting 500 points in 2 weeks, doesnt necessarily work for everyone else.

Painted this army in 2 weeks painting 45-60 min a night...... not perfect but 10 points

Stalked21 wrote:
Painted this army in 2 weeks painting 45-60 min a night...... not perfect but 10 points

Good for you.

What if I can't see well, or have muscle twitches, and therefore can't paint that fast no matter how hard I try?

Or, in a non-hypothetical, what if I don't like to paint?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Stalked21 wrote:
Painted this army in 2 weeks painting 45-60 min a night...... not perfect but 10 points

Good for you.

What if I can't see well, or have muscle twitches, and therefore can't paint that fast no matter how hard I try?

Or, in a non-hypothetical, what if I don't like to paint?

Where there is a will there is a way. The paints nowadays are way better than the older versions like I’ve been saying at least prime them do a quick base color, layer or shade. Even with shaky hands which I’ve got cause electrician you can figure it out

yukishiro1 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
If playing against a painted army is something you like, presumably yes, you would be the one to decide whether an army is painted to a standard you enjoy playing against. Why wouldn't you be?

I don't know anybody who's like "you know, it's the paint on the models that really makes me want to play, not how that paint makes them look. Dip your models in housepaint for all I care, it's that layer of chemical that does it for me!" If people want to play against painted armies, they presumably want to play against a painted army someone's made a decent effort at, not something someone's technically done the bare minimum on in the most slapdash way possible.

That's different than saying "the highlighting on this guy is bad! I won't play you!" I don't know anyone who assesses quality when deciding whether someone's paint job is good enough to play.

Which is why the RULE is bad.

If you only like playing against well-painted armies, a slapdash, awful paintjob won't make it better just because it's technically there. And likewise, 10 points won't make the game any better-you're not concerned about winning or losing, but the aesthetics.

I have zero issues with someone refusing to play me because my army isn't painted, assuming they're polite about it.
I have zero issues with GW saying "This game is best played with painted minis on a cool table!" or something like that.
I do have an issue with the game being impacted by non-gameplay elements, in a way that doesn't really serve to make anyone happier.

You're preaching to the choir here. I think the implementation is terrible. A rule that encourages you to paint like crap and punishes you for taking the time to paint well is not a good way to encourage painting.

More ham-fisted rules writing by the GW crew. Is this another example of “streamlining”?