Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2021/02/16 17:46:57
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
yukishiro1 wrote: I think this thread is an excellent example of the way that peoples' feelings depend much less on the actual impact of something, and much more on whether it makes them feel judged or not. This rule is completely irrelevant in any way that actually matters objectively, but it clearly arouses huge passions among people who feel like they are being negatively judged by it, and produces a lot of strife in the community between the warring camps.
That's a good clue it's a really bad rule for a game company to have: you shouldn't be alienating your customers for something that has no actual impact except in peoples' heads.
Also this.
There's just not much point in this ... at all.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2021/02/16 17:52:51
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
It's legitimately tragic how many people in this thread (and in general) have seemingly squandered hours of precious life doing something they don't enjoy (painting) out of a sense of obligation, or fear of being shamed.
I was there, too, once. Then I realized that spending that amount of time doing something that I hated, to achieve results that I didn't believe in and made my models look worse, was literally insane. I hope some of you trapped and tortured souls out there can undergo the same evolution someday.
To anyone making glib comments like "Painting is part of the hobby" or "One is meant to paint miniatures" -- you're braindead, baby. Miniatures are just sculpture. One of the oldest media in existence, which has been finished with or without surface colouring in every possible variation across millions of cultures and contexts, and in deliberate, subversive violation of every culture and context. Suggesting that a uniformly coloured sculpture inherently has less aesthetic value than a multicoloured sculpture does is both an indefensible and a laughable position to take.
2021/02/16 17:55:21
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Altruizine wrote: It's legitimately tragic how many people in this thread (and in general) have seemingly squandered hours of precious life doing something they don't enjoy (painting) out of a sense of obligation, or fear of being shamed.
I was there, too, once. Then I realized that spending that amount of time doing something that I hated, to achieve results that I didn't believe in and made my models look worse, was literally insane. I hope some of you trapped and tortured souls out there can undergo the same evolution someday.
To anyone making glib comments like "Painting is part of the hobby" or "One is meant to paint miniatures" -- you're braindead, baby. Miniatures are just sculpture. One of the oldest media in existence, which has been finished with or without surface colouring in every possible variation across millions of cultures and contexts, and in deliberate, subversive violation of every culture and context. Suggesting that a uniformly coloured sculpture inherently has less aesthetic value than a multicoloured sculpture does is both an indefensible and a laughable position to take.
I didn't realize how many people got into this hobby that actually hated the hobby...I feel enlightened now.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2021/02/16 18:13:20
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
yukishiro1 wrote: You clearly haven't been reading my posts in the thread if you think I feel judged.
That part wasn't meant to be directed at you specifically but the very idea that there are people who feel that way. If that was your point then we are in agreement. Seems to me the issue is the very implication that models should be painted and that you are doing something wrong by not doing it. I wonder if there was no 10vp rule and GW put out a statement saying that models should be painted if it would cause the same reaction.
2021/02/16 18:13:34
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
I have had quite some fun reading the lame excuses for not painting, thanks for creating this thread Waaaagh on lazy buggers, and don't let anyone cramp your idle style (thoses with a disability this is not directed at you, you have a good reason not to paint and I sympathize with you)
That's a funny way to say "Use painting as a form of elitist gatekeeping".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leth wrote: I dont see how it is judging anyone to say "We are playing by the rules that you and I both knew when we started this game"
Seriously It is kinda funny that people are calling it a cash grab when nothing in the rule requires GW paints.
I have been kicked off of streams at tournaments because my army was unpainted, painted armies are more appealing all around.
What do you mean when we started this game? I started in 3rd ed, when the rule didn't exist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 18:15:32
2021/02/16 18:18:52
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
The models are intended to be painted though. It would be one thing if there was a painting score from 1/10 based on the painting quality...It is litererally - have a painted army.
How do you feel about proxies? Can I just make my army out of legos and put them on legal bases? Would that be okay with you?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2021/02/16 18:20:03
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Oaka wrote: There are a lot of strong opinions in this thread, as well as a lot of scenarios that seem theoretical rather than based on fact.
I will bring up a real scenario that is happening now at my local gaming store. We have just kicked off a narrative crusade league that will last for the next 9 weeks. One of the rules in this league is that if you paint a unit to battle-ready standard during the course of the league, that unit gets +10xp, which is quite a large amount. This rule does not apply to units that are already painted. I suspect it is both to encourage painted armies, as well as to help the store make sales, as there is no entry fee for the league itself. There are 65(!) armies signed up for this league. So far no one has complained that they are at a disadvantage if they don't/can't paint their models. At the other end, there has yet to be anyone who has quickly painted up an army to nab 10xp for all their units. I think this will be a good example of whether the gaming community can enjoy a narrative experience without trying to abuse the system for an advantage.
Oh, and painted armies do get +10VP for each game, again with no complaints. I will admit this is a more narratively driven campaign and not a one-off tournament, but so far it is convincing me that the actual gaming community doesn't behave in the way that some of the examples in this thread makes it seem like they do.
What you experienced is fine because its all houseruled.
What people are complaining about is that its an official rule by GW now.
2021/02/16 18:20:37
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Matt Swain wrote: Is it just possible that some people, some real freaks, i admit, might just simply want to play a tabletop miniatures wargame instead of painting up an army to a degree they may not have time or skill to do?
Except painting your minis is an intrinsic part of the hobby, you may not agree with that nor want to do it, but literally every wargaming company in existence disagrees with you.
Board games explicitly require no painting, nor do several RPGs, where there are even a thorough range of prepaints. (Nolzur’s even provide the same sculpts for those that want to paint them. I’d argue GW is doing a similar thing with its coloured plastic for those that do not want to paint them) Wargaming? Nope. There’s a reason practically every prepainted wargame has flopped, as it deletes a part of the hobby some consider to be immutable.
Well, if painting is intrinsic to the hobby, so is playing. So in theory lets say I go up to a guy painting and offer a game.
You're telling us if he says no, he's Warhammering wrong.
Because playing the game is also an intrinsic part of Warhammering.
Because the implication is that GW wants to sell you their paints to make your army "Battle Ready" and we have white knights defending them as always instead of admitting it's a bad rule.
Yup.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/16 18:21:57
2021/02/16 18:22:03
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Love the virtue signaling here. If you can't accept the bad rule helps determine the outcome of a game, you're at fault for the feeling. Only CASUAL people and people who ONLY have fun are welcome here!
Buzz word garbage.
I'm perfectly comfortable accepting a loss due to paint. I *personally* don't care and you'd never catch me complaining about it. Nor do I care if I ever won by paint points ( actually, I'd consider it a loss ). I played a game. I had fun. Full stop.
Everyone else has their ego wrapped up in this and I find it silly. Let it go. Move on with your life.
2021/02/16 18:22:47
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Tycho wrote: :::L and don't understand why there's such an argument over it ....
Because there's people that like painting and people that don't.
People that like it want the rule because it either gives them an edge or they enjoy the hobby more that way. People that don't dont want the rule because they feel it penalizes them.
Or that it penalizes other people.
2021/02/16 18:23:59
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Because the implication is that GW wants to sell you their paints to make your army "Battle Ready" and we have white knights defending them as always instead of admitting it's a bad rule.
Yup.
All those tournaments I attended over the past decade that had paint scores must have been shilling for Geedubs.
2021/02/16 18:24:43
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Altruizine wrote: It's legitimately tragic how many people in this thread (and in general) have seemingly squandered hours of precious life doing something they don't enjoy (painting) out of a sense of obligation, or fear of being shamed.
I was there, too, once. Then I realized that spending that amount of time doing something that I hated, to achieve results that I didn't believe in and made my models look worse, was literally insane. I hope some of you trapped and tortured souls out there can undergo the same evolution someday.
To anyone making glib comments like "Painting is part of the hobby" or "One is meant to paint miniatures" -- you're braindead, baby. Miniatures are just sculpture. One of the oldest media in existence, which has been finished with or without surface colouring in every possible variation across millions of cultures and contexts, and in deliberate, subversive violation of every culture and context. Suggesting that a uniformly coloured sculpture inherently has less aesthetic value than a multicoloured sculpture does is both an indefensible and a laughable position to take.
I didn't realize how many people got into this hobby that actually hated the hobby...I feel enlightened now.
Are you able to tell the difference between "one thing" and "two things"? Or -- and let me know if I'm going too quickly for you -- "one thing" and "three things"?
That covers today's lesson; tomorrow we will be covering "four things," so please prepare accordingly.
The hobby includes any number of elements. Some of the obvious ones are building, converting, painting, list-building, tactical study, narrative play, and tournament play. Do you think every player is interested in every element? Or even that they *should* be?
2021/02/16 18:25:29
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Personal attacks, excuses, and emotional arguments.
Stop doing that then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: The models are intended to be painted though. It would be one thing if there was a painting score from 1/10 based on the painting quality...It is litererally - have a painted army.
How do you feel about proxies? Can I just make my army out of legos and put them on legal bases? Would that be okay with you?
Because the implication is that GW wants to sell you their paints to make your army "Battle Ready" and we have white knights defending them as always instead of admitting it's a bad rule.
Yup.
All those tournaments I attended over the past decade that had paint scores must have been shilling for Geedubs.
You can opt out of a tournament without opting out of 40K.
Tournament paint rules were house rules that were common to tournaments.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/16 18:29:14
2021/02/16 18:37:14
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Love the virtue signaling here. If you can't accept the bad rule helps determine the outcome of a game, you're at fault for the feeling. Only CASUAL people and people who ONLY have fun are welcome here!
Buzz word garbage.
I'm perfectly comfortable accepting a loss due to paint. I *personally* don't care and you'd never catch me complaining about it. Nor do I care if I ever won by paint points ( actually, I'd consider it a loss ). I played a game. I had fun. Full stop.
Everyone else has their ego wrapped up in this and I find it silly. Let it go. Move on with your life.
Actually the "buzzword" fit perfectly here after that post. You're so wrapped up defending the rule via "well it's only a game and you shouldn't care" even though it's garbage to begin with.
Because the implication is that GW wants to sell you their paints to make your army "Battle Ready" and we have white knights defending them as always instead of admitting it's a bad rule.
Yup.
All those tournaments I attended over the past decade that had paint scores must have been shilling for Geedubs.
Paint scores never affected the game outcome in case you forgot when you made this absolute brain dead post.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 18:38:13
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2021/02/16 18:39:33
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
You can opt out of a tournament without opting out of 40K.
Tournament paint rules were house rules that were common to tournaments.
Either I went to the tournament and took the paint score hit or I tried my best to finish painting to an acceptable standard ( a standard existing before GW's ). Neither scenario caused me to opt out of 40K.
Warhammer is a game. It is also a spectacle. I look forward to going to WHW someday and getting to look at the dioramas in person or catching a Golden Demon competition, because it is just fething cool. Promoting more hobby engagement isn't a bad thing. It took me 20 years to become just a decent painter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Paint scores never affected the game outcome in case you forgot when you made this absolute brain dead post.
Umm, Best Overall.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Actually the "buzzword" fit perfectly here after that post. You're so wrapped up defending the rule via "well it's only a game and you shouldn't care" even though it's garbage to begin with.
I think you're so wrapped up in attacking white knights that you completely fail to understand what I'm saying.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/16 18:41:07
2021/02/16 18:44:05
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Altruizine wrote: It's legitimately tragic how many people in this thread (and in general) have seemingly squandered hours of precious life doing something they don't enjoy (painting) out of a sense of obligation, or fear of being shamed.
I was there, too, once. Then I realized that spending that amount of time doing something that I hated, to achieve results that I didn't believe in and made my models look worse, was literally insane. I hope some of you trapped and tortured souls out there can undergo the same evolution someday.
To anyone making glib comments like "Painting is part of the hobby" or "One is meant to paint miniatures" -- you're braindead, baby. Miniatures are just sculpture. One of the oldest media in existence, which has been finished with or without surface colouring in every possible variation across millions of cultures and contexts, and in deliberate, subversive violation of every culture and context. Suggesting that a uniformly coloured sculpture inherently has less aesthetic value than a multicoloured sculpture does is both an indefensible and a laughable position to take.
I didn't realize how many people got into this hobby that actually hated the hobby...I feel enlightened now.
I love all aspects of the hobby but i can fully understand how someone wouldn't like either painting minis, playing the game or reading up on the lore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: The models are intended to be painted though. It would be one thing if there was a painting score from 1/10 based on the painting quality...It is litererally - have a painted army.
How do you feel about proxies? Can I just make my army out of legos and put them on legal bases? Would that be okay with you?
You don't have to paint them tho. Just because GW writes "some assembly and painting required" on the box doesn't mean you have to oblige.
And i 100% wouldnt mind playing against proxies as long as its easy to tell what is what.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 18:45:50
2021/02/16 18:47:49
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Altruizine wrote: It's legitimately tragic how many people in this thread (and in general) have seemingly squandered hours of precious life doing something they don't enjoy (painting) out of a sense of obligation, or fear of being shamed.
I was there, too, once. Then I realized that spending that amount of time doing something that I hated, to achieve results that I didn't believe in and made my models look worse, was literally insane. I hope some of you trapped and tortured souls out there can undergo the same evolution someday.
To anyone making glib comments like "Painting is part of the hobby" or "One is meant to paint miniatures" -- you're braindead, baby. Miniatures are just sculpture. One of the oldest media in existence, which has been finished with or without surface colouring in every possible variation across millions of cultures and contexts, and in deliberate, subversive violation of every culture and context. Suggesting that a uniformly coloured sculpture inherently has less aesthetic value than a multicoloured sculpture does is both an indefensible and a laughable position to take.
I didn't realize how many people got into this hobby that actually hated the hobby...I feel enlightened now.
Are you able to tell the difference between "one thing" and "two things"? Or -- and let me know if I'm going too quickly for you -- "one thing" and "three things"?
That covers today's lesson; tomorrow we will be covering "four things," so please prepare accordingly.
The hobby includes any number of elements. Some of the obvious ones are building, converting, painting, list-building, tactical study, narrative play, and tournament play. Do you think every player is interested in every element? Or even that they *should* be?
You are too mean to be Canadian. I call BS.
Building/converting/painting...these are all aspect of modeling. Getting into modeling without intending to ever paint - is kind of like getting into woodshop without ever intending to finish any of your work with coatings or rounding buffing off the edges so people can actually sit on/ use the products you build. No one does that. The truth is - youd be better off just buying completed armies...it would cost you less money and time since you don't care about the modeling aspect at all.
Altruizine wrote: It's legitimately tragic how many people in this thread (and in general) have seemingly squandered hours of precious life doing something they don't enjoy (painting) out of a sense of obligation, or fear of being shamed.
I was there, too, once. Then I realized that spending that amount of time doing something that I hated, to achieve results that I didn't believe in and made my models look worse, was literally insane. I hope some of you trapped and tortured souls out there can undergo the same evolution someday.
To anyone making glib comments like "Painting is part of the hobby" or "One is meant to paint miniatures" -- you're braindead, baby. Miniatures are just sculpture. One of the oldest media in existence, which has been finished with or without surface colouring in every possible variation across millions of cultures and contexts, and in deliberate, subversive violation of every culture and context. Suggesting that a uniformly coloured sculpture inherently has less aesthetic value than a multicoloured sculpture does is both an indefensible and a laughable position to take.
I didn't realize how many people got into this hobby that actually hated the hobby...I feel enlightened now.
I love all aspects of the hobby but i can fully understand how someone wouldn't like either painting minis, playing the game or reading up on the lore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: The models are intended to be painted though. It would be one thing if there was a painting score from 1/10 based on the painting quality...It is litererally - have a painted army.
How do you feel about proxies? Can I just make my army out of legos and put them on legal bases? Would that be okay with you?
You don't have to paint them tho. Just because GW writes "some assembly and painting required" on the box doesn't mean you have to oblige.
And i 100% wouldnt mind playing against proxies as long as its easy to tell what is what.
Well - thats where you and I differ...I am not playing against a lego 40k army. In the same way I prefer to play against painted armies.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/16 18:56:01
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2021/02/16 19:00:42
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Building/converting/painting...these are all aspect of modeling. Getting into modeling without intending to ever paint - is kind of like getting into woodshop without ever intending to finish any of your work with coatings or rounding buffing off the edges so people can actually sit on/ use the products you build. No one does that. The truth is - youd be better off just buying completed armies...it would cost you less money and time since you don't care about the modeling aspect at all.
Yeah, and modeling is part of the greater hobby that is "wargaming". And no, buying used armies isnt the solution because some people enjoy assembling the minis or even converting them but don't want to go anywhere close to a paintbrush.
Well - thats where you and I differ...I am not playing against a lego 40k army. In the same way I prefer to play against painted armies.
this is fine, its up to personal preference. The reason people are complaining is that GW now has a hand in it instead of simply being on a player by player basis. If you don't want to play against an unpainted army, you're absolutely free to refuse a game and i wouldn't judge you for it. Its just that when GW comes in and adds a bonus/malus for the painter/non painter it sucks and it feels bad for the players that enjoy all of the hobby except the painting (which lets be frank is what takes up most of the time in it)
2021/02/16 19:08:31
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
You can opt out of a tournament without opting out of 40K.
Tournament paint rules were house rules that were common to tournaments.
Either I went to the tournament and took the paint score hit or I tried my best to finish painting to an acceptable standard ( a standard existing before GW's ). Neither scenario caused me to opt out of 40K.
Warhammer is a game. It is also a spectacle. I look forward to going to WHW someday and getting to look at the dioramas in person or catching a Golden Demon competition, because it is just fething cool. Promoting more hobby engagement isn't a bad thing. It took me 20 years to become just a decent painter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Paint scores never affected the game outcome in case you forgot when you made this absolute brain dead post.
Umm, Best Overall.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Actually the "buzzword" fit perfectly here after that post. You're so wrapped up defending the rule via "well it's only a game and you shouldn't care" even though it's garbage to begin with.
I think you're so wrapped up in attacking white knights that you completely fail to understand what I'm saying.
1. You're not saying anything that hasn't been said before (and much better than you said it as well), 2 you're missing the point completely, and acting belligerently about it.
Tournaments are optional. You can play 40k without using a tournament's house rules. With the paint rule though, you either have to make a house rule, give up games to paint, or be penalized.
And sure, it can be a spectical. But that's not a requirement. No one is obligated to paint for your amusement, whether in golden deamon, or on the table top.
And no, you still have a lot of work to do on your paint skills.
2021/02/16 19:12:39
Subject: Re:You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
Altruizine wrote: It's legitimately tragic how many people in this thread (and in general) have seemingly squandered hours of precious life doing something they don't enjoy (painting) out of a sense of obligation, or fear of being shamed.
I was there, too, once. Then I realized that spending that amount of time doing something that I hated, to achieve results that I didn't believe in and made my models look worse, was literally insane. I hope some of you trapped and tortured souls out there can undergo the same evolution someday.
To anyone making glib comments like "Painting is part of the hobby" or "One is meant to paint miniatures" -- you're braindead, baby. Miniatures are just sculpture. One of the oldest media in existence, which has been finished with or without surface colouring in every possible variation across millions of cultures and contexts, and in deliberate, subversive violation of every culture and context. Suggesting that a uniformly coloured sculpture inherently has less aesthetic value than a multicoloured sculpture does is both an indefensible and a laughable position to take.
I didn't realize how many people got into this hobby that actually hated the hobby...I feel enlightened now.
Are you able to tell the difference between "one thing" and "two things"? Or -- and let me know if I'm going too quickly for you -- "one thing" and "three things"?
That covers today's lesson; tomorrow we will be covering "four things," so please prepare accordingly.
The hobby includes any number of elements. Some of the obvious ones are building, converting, painting, list-building, tactical study, narrative play, and tournament play. Do you think every player is interested in every element? Or even that they *should* be?
You are too mean to be Canadian. I call BS.
Building/converting/painting...these are all aspect of modeling. Getting into modeling without intending to ever paint - is kind of like getting into woodshop without ever intending to finish any of your work with coatings or rounding buffing off the edges so people can actually sit on/ use the products you build. No one does that. The truth is - youd be better off just buying completed armies...it would cost you less money and time since you don't care about the modeling aspect at all.
The idea of getting into something with firm, unbreakable intentions strikes me as very strange. You have to try stuff out to understand how you feel about it, right?
When I got into the hobby I tried painting. I tried so hard that I ended up with ~15,000 points of painted Dark Angels. When I started second and third 40K armies, and moved into WHFB with two more armies, I tried painting in different styles and with different techniques. And... I hated it all. It was all a waste of time. Luckily, by that point I was well on the way to being a grown ass human, and I was able to make the decision to become a conscientious objector and stand up to Big Paint.
2021/02/16 19:13:18
Subject: You dont have a painted army, but he does. He wants his 10 points?
(thoses with a disability this is not directed at you, you have a good reason not to paint and I sympathize with you)
