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So a weird title, I get it, but it’s a comparison which I think is relevant given the serious overhaul that 9th is doing.

Using Deathshroud as an example vs the standard Warden

Same WS
Worse BS (but ranged weapons auto-hit)
Better saves (Custodes match but only after their detachment rules)
Cheaper (50 vs 60)
Anti-hoarde weapon option
Same attacks (more however due to leader and special rules when charging / charged)
Flat 2 damage as opposed to D3
Reduce damage by 1

Custodes benefit:
Ob Sec
Longer ranged shooting
D3 damage has change to hit harder
Str 5

In short, Death Shroud Terminators are far superior and personally I think the same applies to Blightlords point for point.

So what does this mean for Custodes? Are we going to see a considerable buff in comparison to justify their points? If you make the cheaper, then it’s not quite the elite army their fluff dictates.

Considering Custodes are top 3 right now and not in any danger of being unseated by the current meta,

Nothing I suspect.

GW may pull a dumb and give us ungodly broken rules that totally ruin the current meta, but that is unlikely for two key reasons:

1. Custodes are not Astartes (Aka Poster Child who can do NO WRONG) and thus will not get massive buffs.

3. Custodes are a nische faction that don't really fit into the business model. No one has to buy a lot of overpriced boxes to build a Custodes Army. Hell, 3 boxes of bikes/guardians is about 250 usd, and is practically a list. There is no reason to buff us.

Buffs to one faction because another faction is too strong, or just got buffed, is a bad way to balance a game. DG aren't even that awesome right now. Has everyone forgotten what Salamanders can do now with the Eradicators and the Melta Bikes/speeders, or what DA/DW Terminators are? Or how ridiculous the BA book is? Custodes do not need buffs. We are fine. Nothing to see here. Move along. Please don't nerf us.

Custodes are only top 3 because of the troop choice, though.

This is just another case of comparing a faction with an 8th edition codex to one with a 9th edition codex. Once Custodes get their 9th edition codex I'm sure they'll be the most Super of Super Soldiers again.

I really don’t think there is much of a issue, they should be fairly similar overall even if they get there a little different and you have to also compare them within there faction as well.

Custodes also get +1 movement and an inbuilt 6+++.
Also, the "ranged weapon" of the deathshroud is an hand flamer, you can't really compare it to a rapid fire damage 2 weapon.

Now, what DS terminators really have over the custodes is the bodyguard rule, which is one of the best rules in this edition.

Wardens will probably go down a bit in cost, since the 9th edition redesign so far has reduced the overall cost of the though footslogger package. At 54 they will be fine.

I wouldnt be surprised if custodes get transhuman as a detachment ability.

Custodes slowly get less and less special :(

I mean SM bikes have already been bumped up to the same amount of wounds as the Vertus Praetors

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
This is just another case of comparing a faction with an 8th edition codex to one with a 9th edition codex. Once Custodes get their 9th edition codex I'm sure they'll be the most Super of Super Soldiers again.

Pretty much this. Not to poop on OP by any degree, but this is literally Apples to Slightly Mouldy Oranges.

With Astartes getting an extra wound across the board, let alone unit or army specific tweaks, it’s inevitable Custards are going to look slightly more wimpy than before.

When they get their (extra, because of all the Gooooooolllldd) shiny new Codex, we should see them get their spit and polish. I reckon we can reasonably expect additional wounds, and something akin to Bolter Drill and Furious Assault (I think that’s what it’s called?).

And with a bit of wishlisty magic, specific Custodes vehicles - not just Marine ones painted gold.

Let's do some fact checking.

Sumilidon wrote:
Cheaper (50 vs 60)

So we are talking about Custodian Wardens?

Same WS
Flat 2 damage as opposed to D3
Same attacks (more however due to leader and special rules when charging / charged)
Anti-hoarde weapon option

When you use the manreaper profile with 2 damage, you also get -1 to hit, while custodes always hit on twos. It also seems like GW will be eliminating d3 rolls on most weapons which are used en masse, so custodes will likely be 2 damage in their new codex as well.
A deathshroud terminator always has 4 attacks, neither hateful blows nor DttfE are a thing anymore. Wardens also get a Misericordia for a 5th attack.
In general deathshroud are better at killing hordes with 6+ saves or invuls, but almost equally good against 4+ and 5+ saves.
Custodes are vastly better at killing elite units and vehicles.

Worse BS (but ranged weapons auto-hit)

Also pistol d6 S3 12" 1 damage, while the custodes weapons are 24" rapid fire S4 Ap-1 2 damage.

Better saves (Custodes match but only after their detachment rules)
Reduce damage by 1

You make it sound like fielding custodes in a mixed IMPERIUM detachment is an actual option.
Wardens also come with 6+++ which is worse than -1 damage unless the shooting weapon's average damage is 6 or higher. However, it does work against mortal wounds and 1 damage attacks.
They also can take storm shields for 1+ armor.

Custodes benefit:
Ob Sec
Longer ranged shooting
D3 damage has change to hit harder
Str 5

Deathshroud always attack against -1T, so S5 doesn't really make a difference. ObSec is the big one here.

In short, Death Shroud Terminators are far superior and personally I think the same applies to Blightlords point for point.

In short, you were badly informed about the actual rules of deathshroud which caused this thread as a knee-jerk reaction. Tossing in blightlords for good measure without any arguments to back up that claim doesn't exactly help your case.

Essentially, custodes have superior damage output in combat and at range unless you are fighting hordes of ork boyz or daemons. Survivability is slightly lower against anti-tank weaponry, but better against small arms and mortal wounds.
For your 10 extra points you get objective secured and more damage, which is a rather fair trade.
Keep in mind that your army does not have an army trait, while deathshroud rely on the nurgle's gift contagion to deal damage against many targets.

So what does this mean for Custodes? Are we going to see a considerable buff in comparison to justify their points? If you make the cheaper, then it’s not quite the elite army their fluff dictates.

I'd expect all custodes to get an additional wound, combined with a price hike. Fluff-wise deathshroud aren't exactly rank and file astartes, so it's not much of stretch for them to be able to fight on equal footing with a custodes.

Just because one army gets lots of new toys, doesn't mean every army should have comparable, sometimes they may not be as good and cost more in points, this is because you cannot compare one unit against another from a different army in a vacuum.

Fair to say, if custodes terminators stayed exactly the same when the codex gets updated, they will still be a very good unit.

Also, and this is a point many cannot fathom, certain stratagems are not just a CP cost, the ability to use the stratagem is baked into the units point cost, or synergies with other units. Custodes terminators with the right set up can deep strike within 3" of an enemy, almost guarantee the charge with that, wreck absolute face in combat then can split into separate units, meaning the opponent has to dedicate as many units as there are now separate custodes terminators at the very least to stop them, and they can be a durable and hard to move unit.

They are fine. Let Deathguard keep their new rules and don't multiply them to other codex's, it just makes the game more bland if all units act the same.

Spoletta 796326 11060014 wrote:

Wardens will probably go down a bit in cost, since the 9th edition redesign so far has reduced the overall cost of the though footslogger package. At 54 they will be fine.

That stat line for 4 pts more, then a GK paladin? I ain't saying that wouldn't be fine for custodes players, but that is a lot of things to gain for 4 pts, both in stats and higher resiliance.

Karol wrote:

Spoletta 796326 11060014 wrote:

Wardens will probably go down a bit in cost, since the 9th edition redesign so far has reduced the overall cost of the though footslogger package. At 54 they will be fine.

That stat line for 4 pts more, then a GK paladin? I ain't saying that wouldn't be fine for custodes players, but that is a lot of things to gain for 4 pts, both in stats and higher resiliance.

Don't you think that something will happen to paladins in the 9th edition GK codex?

If GW patern of codex writing were to be followed, then nerfs should happen. That is assuming GW does make the GK book, as they clearly skiped GK in their codex line up.

 Jidmah wrote:

Wardens also come with 6+++ which is worse than -1 damage unless the shooting weapon's average damage is 6 or higher. However, it does work against mortal wounds and 1 damage attacks.
They also can take storm shields for 1+ armor.

Slight correction, there's no access to storm shields on Wardens. They trade access to sword/shield in exchange for being able to take axes.

It's shocking me how many people are comparing S/T 4 models to the S/T 5 that Custodes get, like it doesn't matter.

I say make the weapons uniform across the board. Give us plus 1S swords, +2 Spears, and +3 axes, and nerf the axes to -1 to hit. But make them all flat 2 damage.

Sorry, you are correct. I was flipping between datasheets and got them messed up with Custodian Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's shocking me how many people are comparing S/T 4 models to the S/T 5 that Custodes get, like it doesn't matter.

Deathshroud are S/T 5 for most intents and purposes. The only exception would be rules like getting crushed by a knight with a gauntlet.

As a Custodes Player the only reason custodes are TOP tier is for 3++ obsect guardians.

Thats why you see those spammed in soups and pure custodes lists are even playing with pure custodes guardian.

GW seems keen in removing 3++ so we'll have to see what they do with that.

A spear custode (The ones I run) are greately outclased by points by all kind of terminators (Lets not compare them with deathwing knights, and I play DA) or even things like Bladeguard Veterans. Personally I'll always prefer for my custodes to be better and more expensive than for them to be made cheaper. Thats why I play custodes, and a pure custodes force is a hard army to use because you can make so few mistakes and have so few units. Thats whats fun about them.

Custodes are to 40k what Zangief is to Street Fighter.

In the hands of a master, practically impossible to hold back. But also you have to think very carefully about every move.

Karol wrote:
If GW patern of codex writing were to be followed, then nerfs should happen. That is assuming GW does make the GK book, as they clearly skiped GK in their codex line up.

God i can't wait for GK to be nerfed, they were so op in 6th, they can't be allowed to even function now.

Plus, we're comparing a troop rules of one army to the toughest, most elite infantry unit of another army whos "thing" is being tough, and they come out pretty close after getting their 9th edition codex.

I'd say things are very close to where they should be in pure stat regards.

I'm guessing Custodes will get some shiney new special abilities or strats, and they may even keep the 3+ invuln and have that be their special little thing that only they can get, which would be great IMO.

Quasistellar wrote:
Plus, we're comparing a troop rules of one army to the toughest, most elite infantry unit of another army whos "thing" is being tough, and they come out pretty close after getting their 9th edition codex.

I'd say things are very close to where they should be in pure stat regards.

I'm guessing Custodes will get some shiney new special abilities or strats, and they may even keep the 3+ invuln and have that be their special little thing that only they can get, which would be great IMO.

yeah DG should be nigh unkillable, Custodes can keep their current resilience but have a tad more damage output and it would still be fine IMO.

 Galas wrote:
As a Custodes Player the only reason custodes are TOP tier is for 3++ obsect guardians.

Thats why you see those spammed in soups and pure custodes lists are even playing with pure custodes guardian.

GW seems keen in removing 3++ so we'll have to see what they do with that.

A spear custode (The ones I run) are greately outclased by points by all kind of terminators (Lets not compare them with deathwing knights, and I play DA) or even things like Bladeguard Veterans. Personally I'll always prefer for my custodes to be better and more expensive than for them to be made cheaper. Thats why I play custodes, and a pure custodes force is a hard army to use because you can make so few mistakes and have so few units. Thats whats fun about them.

I could see 1+/3++ being their "thing".

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Custodes are to 40k what Zangief is to Street Fighter.

In the hands of a master, practically impossible to hold back. But also you have to think very carefully about every move.

What the feth are you talking about? Custodes involve not moving at all except with bikes hahahahaha

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Custodes are to 40k what Zangief is to Street Fighter.

In the hands of a master, practically impossible to hold back. But also you have to think very carefully about every move.

What the feth are you talking about? Custodes involve not moving at all except with bikes hahahahaha

I'm talking about how every action they take can have serious consequences. And You are wrong about not moving. Lots of successful lists involving custodes are movers and attackers. There has been much success with the camp lists, but there have been many with Aquilons, Ares, and Sag.