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Strategic plan means research. Growth is always informed by research.

Again, something someone with a background in accounting or finance would know.

You can have growth and still get things wrong. That's all I've been saying. lol

In your world, once something is road-mapped, that's it? Every part of it will be 100% correct with no mistakes!? That's stupid impressive if so.

If you have a defacto monopoly, you can have major growth despite getting in your own way. Again, I never claimed they were making crazy mistakes. Just that they are probably getting certain things wrong due to lingering out-dated practices. I mean, history has shown, that if you get something "right" enough, your other mistakes won't hurt you as badly (like that point in time where Space Marine sales alone were almost single handedly funding production of Warhammer Fantasy), it doesn't change the fact that you could be doing even better. It also doesn't change the fact that you could be wrong about some things. Or have a slightly knackered view of them. IE - Saying Xenos don't sell, when you've largely ignored them for years on end, and missing the possibility that they aren't selling because half your customers now have kids who are significantly younger than a good portion of the model line ...

The initial price is likely a poor calculation on their part ...

Cyberpunk's issues have nothing to do with the ultimate deadline. They started work on it a LOOOOONG time ago. It was ... other things that will likely surface eventually. But I digress.

This is what I was getting at. Knowing what a "successful GW app should look like", and knowing that what they had was pretty darn far from that, it was a an obvious miscalculation to price it at $5 ....

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Clearly we're just working to different definitions of mistake.
I personally wouldn't think that tanking your stock would be a necessary prerequisite of a mistake.

IT Director here.

The App was put on an unworkable deadline. Look at what happened to Cyberpunk 2077.

The App had a window they wanted it to hit to make an impact and it didn't pan out. The initial price is likely a poor calculation on their part based solely around recovering the likely large costs incurred by the project. The thing people should be noticing is that someone has enough sway to both put it into a beta and not charge customers and then reduce the price.

I don't think they intended a price switch-a-roo.

Given the quality of the app, I doubt there was a significant investment in development.

The big thing the app does is tie real world purchases of books to specific consumers. It's a form of market research, they want to know more about the people who buy their products - and get people to pay them to do it. You can learn a lot about people once you start gathering information from their phones, like what models they collect, how often they visit stores, what Codexes they actually read, etc.

But you can tell a little bit about how they spent their money based on the issues end users have been having with it. This wasn't some user-centric design process, it's hardly usable.

But you can tell a little bit about how they spent their money based on the issues end users have been having with it. This wasn't some user-centric design process, it's hardly usable.

Right. It's almost like they didn't use modern design principles to get this done ... almost like there are still some things they have yet to really figure out ... That's all I'm saying.

mrFickle wrote:
The releases for AOS and the other games in the AOS do appear to be more balanced. My other impression is that the fantasy sculpts are more interesting and varied. Some of the new 40K sculpts are brilliant but they are largely more power armour which can only be so varied. The fantasy setting of AOS seems to spark the imagination in the designers more than for 40K.

Mind you I was looking at the FW website and the approach they’ve taken to chaos marines blows GW out the water especially when looking at chaos demons and CSM demon engines.

By all rights eldar should have the most fantastic sculpts of 40K. I really think if GW invested more in these armies people would buy the minis

Yes. I mean they could probably see how the Aelves in AOS are selling pretty well. The Eldar just need better and more pretty sclupts and I think its because they are adhereing too much to their design and 40k's 'gothic' aesthetic.

AOS will continue to do well and become better because AOS's systems are easier, and its less competitive. 40k has an issue overall of its rules and well the shooting face. Along with its entire model line being only space marines or diet space marines. There is a ton of issues and there will continue to be because of this hyper focus on space marines is just killing it for me, I never want to buy another 40k kit because how creatively bankrupt it is.

I want to see more with 40k but its just hampered by primarchs and space marines thats all we ever see from the setting. 40k is Space Marines thats it.

You know, I'd personally like to see some actual numbers when it comes to these claims. The idea that the marine release domination is due to A) other armies not even able to pull their own weight and marines being needed to make up for them and B) that putting even equal representation of non-marine releases will somehow result in GW collapsing, is pretty presumptuous. I cannot deny that Marines are popular, but I highly doubt it's the only thing holding GW up and I'd like to see something more than just guesstimation based on a unspecific statement.

I keep hearing about how AoS is better and will grow to heavens but how come 40K is 5x bigger than AoS right now? (figure given by Reece on a FLG podcast a couple of weeks back)

As for marines and their central position in 40K: GW prints money with them. They release a single kit, they give it decent-to-good rules, it sells for millions of £. Rinse and repeat.
What worries me is that the growth we've seen over the past few years (stock price, revenues, bottom line profits, ...) has been fueled by a once-in-a-generation revamp of their most popular model range (SM) and therefore it looks kinda unsustainable to me.
You can't release uber-primaris now (that are better than current ones rules wise, in order for them to sell even more) because the customers would be angry about it.
You can't even expect to forever be in a global pandemic that incentivizes nerds to spend even more money on the hobby.
But shareholders kinda expect current growth rates to be maintained and even surpassed year after year...

Tycho wrote:

Strategic plan means research. Growth is always informed by research.

Again, something someone with a background in accounting or finance would know.

You can have growth and still get things wrong. That's all I've been saying. lol

In your world, once something is road-mapped, that's it? Every part of it will be 100% correct with no mistakes!? That's stupid impressive if so.

The only thing I've been saying is growth like that doesn't happen by accident or in a vaccum. Someone knows what they are doing and it's probably not through intuition alone.

Your evidence of mistakes is a mobile app. Show me something that lead to significant defections from the player base, like what happened at the start of 7th edition. Show me something that left the door open for other companies to grow, I'm only aware of other companies going out of business during GW's ascent. Show me something related to hobby supplies, where they faceplanted trying to introduce a new line of paints.

You said you've worked for Deloitte. This should be easy for anyone who's familiar with the business practices of the Big Four.

Sure, I'm certain GW tried a few things that did not work out. I'm equally certain the consequences are insignificant when viewed in terms of what they've been able to achieve. Companies have to try things in order to grow new product lines, no organization executes perfectly 100% of the time. A mistake would be not trying new things or trying to adapt to changes in the market.

But it does not appear leadership has done anything 'wrong' in terms of growing the company, and this probably directly relates to the question of why there are so many Space Marine releases and so few Xenos releases. I've suggested it has to do with attracting new players to the game, and you keep talking about that mobile app...

Tycho wrote:
If you have a defacto monopoly, you can have major growth despite getting in your own way. Again, I never claimed they were making crazy mistakes. Just that they are probably getting certain things wrong due to lingering out-dated practices. I mean, history has shown, that if you get something "right" enough, your other mistakes won't hurt you as badly (like that point in time where Space Marine sales alone were almost single handedly funding production of Warhammer Fantasy), it doesn't change the fact that you could be doing even better. It also doesn't change the fact that you could be wrong about some things. Or have a slightly knackered view of them. IE - Saying Xenos don't sell, when you've largely ignored them for years on end, and missing the possibility that they aren't selling because half your customers now have kids who are significantly younger than a good portion of the model line ...

'Crazy mistakes.'

GW, historically, has made many crazy mistakes. Those are worth talking about, the contrast between Kirby-era GW and Roundtree-era GW is night and day. It's not the same company.

Part of the disconnect here is you're talking about issues with design and I'm talking about corporate performance. If it's so important to you, I'll happily agree that the line is old and GW could enjoy marginal near term increases in sales by refreshing some of the Xenos models. You can talk all you want about the design decisions made under Kirby and how Roundtree has to live with them. Done.

Now you tell me why GW hasn't already refreshed the lines. Corporate performance suggests the current leadership team does not leave money on the table. It also suggests they have an outstanding product-market fit, not just with models, but also with licensing their IP. I have suggested GW does not refresh the lines to avoid the parasitic effects of upstaging the faction that brings people into the game, and there's probably more long-term value in keeping Space Marines fresh and other factions a little dated.

If you're going to say it's just a simple mistake and they would be making more money if they did it, help me understand what you understand that Roundtree doesn't. Like, what are the consequences of this tendency towards mistakes you keep talking about? Is GW only worth $4.6B when it could be worth $6.2 (i.e. Mattel?) Would the player base be double in size? Is it something about the demographics, like would there be a more inclusive community if there was a new Guardian boxed set? I don't need exact quantitive analysis, just ballpark it for me.

Given all the other things they've been selling the last few years, I just don't see GW ignoring the preferences of players unless there's a sound reason to. That's actually what I'm asking for, explain to me what the consequences are. If the mistake is that they've failed to satisfy a design preference that leads to some people leaving the game, but otherwise does not affect the overall growth trajectory of the company - there's lots of other ways for those people to spend their money. I don't think GW is oblivious to the cost compared to the benefits of sticking to the current course.

 Aenar wrote:
I keep hearing about how AoS is better and will grow to heavens but how come 40K is 5x bigger than AoS right now? (figure given by Reece on a FLG podcast a couple of weeks back)

Same reason than why GW is the biggest name in the wargaming world... Inertia.

GW is in an amazing spot since their brand is so widely recognized all over because of how old they are.
Stores are more likely to stock 40k since its the biggest seller, which means that players are more likely to get into 40k than other wargames because its the one stores actually have without needing special orders.

There are tons of much better wargames than 40k but sadly, a new player would (usually) rather start playing the game with huge support and community than the smaller games, even if the rules are much more solid.

GW can afford to make mistakes that alienates players because their whole brand wont really be tainted because a couple eldar players aren't getting updated minis. And i say this as a pointy eared player.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Given the quality of the app, I doubt there was a significant investment in development.

The big thing the app does is tie real world purchases of books to specific consumers. It's a form of market research, they want to know more about the people who buy their products - and get people to pay them to do it. You can learn a lot about people once you start gathering information from their phones, like what models they collect, how often they visit stores, what Codexes they actually read, etc.

But you can tell a little bit about how they spent their money based on the issues end users have been having with it. This wasn't some user-centric design process, it's hardly usable.

Given the quality of Cyberpunk what do you think the dev costs were there?

Things get expensive quick. I also doubt GW did this in-house.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Given the quality of the app, I doubt there was a significant investment in development.

The big thing the app does is tie real world purchases of books to specific consumers. It's a form of market research, they want to know more about the people who buy their products - and get people to pay them to do it. You can learn a lot about people once you start gathering information from their phones, like what models they collect, how often they visit stores, what Codexes they actually read, etc.

But you can tell a little bit about how they spent their money based on the issues end users have been having with it. This wasn't some user-centric design process, it's hardly usable.

Given the quality of Cyberpunk what do you think the dev costs were there?

Things get expensive quick. I also doubt GW did this in-house.

Cyberpunk and the 40k app are apples to oranges. One is entertainment looking to push the edge, one is surveillance capitalism. But I get your point about escalating costs.

I suspect the app was built by a company called Thoughtbot. I know they were speaking with GW, had meetings with Thoughtbot a couple years ago and saw what looked like a pitchdeck for GW. That, and the app resembles early prototypes they showed me for wireframing their stuff.

There's this whole industry of technology consultants that will build you a mobile app with every kind of invasive technology imaginable baked in. Whoever built it, the focus is on tracking consumers, not making it more efficient to play the game. I don't see evidence serious resources were devoted to user experience, it just looks like some generic inventory drill down app with some pictures stuck in. My thumb got tired the first time I used it, trying to go through all the data sheets.

Given the value of the data that thing is collecting, GW should be paying you to put that app on your phone. It's icky.

 Aenar wrote:
I keep hearing about how AoS is better and will grow to heavens but how come 40K is 5x bigger than AoS right now? (figure given by Reece on a FLG podcast a couple of weeks back)

Heres the thing, AOS is growing, and does not have as wide marketability that 40k currently does, but we are starting to see a shift. It will start to get more popular and will increase in sales. I have no doubt that AOS will become more popular as time goes on. And Space Marine 40k will continue to print money.

 techsoldaten wrote:


I suspect the app was built by a company called Thoughtbot. I know they were speaking with GW, had meetings with Thoughtbot a couple years ago and saw what looked like a pitchdeck for GW. That, and the app resembles early prototypes they showed me for wireframing their stuff.

There's this whole industry of technology consultants that will build you a mobile app with every kind of invasive technology imaginable baked in. Whoever built it, the focus is on tracking consumers, not making it more efficient to play the game. I don't see evidence serious resources were devoted to user experience, it just looks like some generic inventory drill down app with some pictures stuck in. My thumb got tired the first time I used it, trying to go through all the data sheets.

Given the value of the data that thing is collecting, GW should be paying you to put that app on your phone. It's icky.

Yeaaa....that's pretty cynical considering the effort they're still putting into it as well as the app permissions that consist of...network access.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Given the quality of Cyberpunk what do you think the dev costs were there?

Things get expensive quick. I also doubt GW did this in-house.

cyberpunk is a wonderful example of what happens, when you decide that you will crunch the game in to its final form in the last years, decide that it is going to be forward and backwards compatible for xboxs/ps, and work for PC. And then covid strikes and you suddenly have zero control over what people are doing in some countries, because unlike some countries you can't just whip people in to working non stop durning a pandemic in western countries.

Which by the way is no excuse for making a not working game. They should have either decided to make it PC new gen consol only, or make the next gen transfer later. Which considering how hard it still is to get those new consols looks like they really shot themself in both feet trying to make a game work on those platforms.

GW app on the other hand is just a data gathering tool. It would have been nice, if it was at least as bit friendly as the AoS one. A friend showed me his inifnity army builder, and it is free, and it works without adds and doesn't crash most phones.

Karol wrote:
GW app on the other hand is just a data gathering tool. It would have been nice, if it was at least as bit friendly as the AoS one. A friend showed me his inifnity army builder, and it is free, and it works without adds and doesn't crash most phones.

What data is it gathering?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


I suspect the app was built by a company called Thoughtbot. I know they were speaking with GW, had meetings with Thoughtbot a couple years ago and saw what looked like a pitchdeck for GW. That, and the app resembles early prototypes they showed me for wireframing their stuff.

There's this whole industry of technology consultants that will build you a mobile app with every kind of invasive technology imaginable baked in. Whoever built it, the focus is on tracking consumers, not making it more efficient to play the game. I don't see evidence serious resources were devoted to user experience, it just looks like some generic inventory drill down app with some pictures stuck in. My thumb got tired the first time I used it, trying to go through all the data sheets.

Given the value of the data that thing is collecting, GW should be paying you to put that app on your phone. It's icky.

Yeaaa....that's pretty cynical considering the effort they're still putting into it as well as the app permissions that consist of...network access.

Will gladly admit to cynicism in the mobile space.

We know for a fact the GW app is collecting ids from physical purchases tied to specific consumers.

If they are not collecting geolocation, usage statistics, data about other apps running on the phone, etc, that means one of three things.

- They are dumb and working with the wrong vendor.

- They are cheap and took the low cost option.

- They are waiting until there's a large enough user base and then will start collecting these metrics.

My money is on 3.

When was the last time an app updated on your iPhone / Android device and asked you for additional permissions? Thinking they never change?

Color me unconcerned if GW knows what kits I bought considering they don't need the app to do that and the app gives them no real additional insight to my behavior.

No trackers listed on it:
https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.gamesworkshop.warhammer40k/latest/

And for those unfamiliar - this is what a big mobile game looks like:
https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.hcg.cok.gp/latest/

I will go with option #4 - they actually wanted to give a value-add product that also provides a revenue stream and bungled it, because the requirements didn't translate to the developers well.

Related:

Like a lot of folks, I'm hoping that GW drops some serious development into non-marines this edition. They did last edition- Custodes were invented as a faction, GSC and Admech got big release waves, and sisters... Wow, the Sisters! So maybe what we're seeing is timing; marines first to pad out the war chest. CWE big release on the way, so they do a small first wave DE, big CWE, then second release for DE soon?

I don't know- just hoping.

The other thing that seems to be missing from the discussion is the overall impact of a short term gain at the increase of a longer term loss.

The Primaris glut has been great for the bottom line over the past few years, sure. But unless the antagonists get some upscaling, the game can't continue- no one wants a game where one team is excellent and all other teams get neither rule nor model support. Not even the people on the winning team want that- I've seen SM players turned off by their own release schedule!

So where the R&D comes in is determining the breaking point, and acting to prevent the breaking point from occurring.

Some folks have a lesser tolerance, and as the thread title implies, at least some of us are beginning to vote with our feet, which means the time to act is approaching. Also, the impact of being under-supported will linger longer for some people than others. One person in the thread has already said they are kinda done, no matter what GW does from here on in. That's a hardline position, and I'd say it's an outlier; I think the more common response will be "I'm done... Until GW does something for my faction."

The people in the former group are lost profits. The people in the later group do not represent lost profits... They are deferred profits.

And everyone will reach a breaking point eventually. If GW can turn their experience around before they get there, the company will be continue to grow at something close to its current rate. If not, the company will still survive... But they will see things slow down.

I played pretty consistently from 1989- 2009. But two of my favourite armies- GSC and Sisters were pretty much DOA- they former was hard squatted in the 90's and the later soft squatted in the mid to late aughts. And it made me quit playing (though I didn't get rid of my collection either- just ignored the entire company, no White Dwarf, no websites, no forums, no games and no purchases).

One day, I walked by a GW store and saw the GSC 7th ed dex on the shelf. I bought it that day, without a second thought. When they announced a new edition 2 months later, it might have killed my participation again, but they also announced plastic Sisters and even carved out a role for them in the transition story between editions.

Since my return to the hobby, I've probably put in $2-3k. Insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but how many people like me are there?

On a side note: 9th also almost took me out again. I believe that edition resets are the worst part of any game; they've made me quit D&D, all of the World of Darkness games, and countless others. In the end, I did the mental gymnastics and stayed in the game. This time, not for a faction: I've got enough GSC and Sisters resources and models that I could have played 8th for the rest of my life.

What kept me around for 9th was Crusade, and the impact Crusade content will have on my enjoyment of the models I already own. If GW goes to a 10th edition- I should say when, not if- it is unlikely I will follow. 8th gave me the models I want, 9th gave me the rules. What more do I need?

So they'll have to work to keep me. I'll buy:

Sisters
GSC
DE
CSM
Daemons
Inquisition/ Agents

I'd invest in Guard and CWE, but only if they get range refreshes. I'll buy SoS when they can fight as a standalone army- even if it's just a small one (an HQ, Troop, and a single bespoke vehicle kit would be enough for me). I'd also buy Kroot- not Tau, Kroot.

I did cave in and start a small Death Watch force so that I could use the marines I already had, but that force won't grow much. It's never going to be a full army- it's there to support the Imperium, not to fight on its own. I'm already

I know I'm not a typical player, especially not here on Dakka. But I'm sure there are at least some players out there with similar thoughts and experiences. I'm preparing for 9th to be my final edition. Even if they carry Crusade into 10th, there's not much they could do to improve it enough that I'd rebuy all the dexes again.

I'm lost profits at this point, at least for craftworld eldar.

I've got rigged up 3d models of most of the aspects at this point that I can put in any pose I want, and I've got a printer that can make them for 50c a miniature. If the howling banshees are anything to go off of, that's a cool 95% discount. If thoughout all 9 months of quarantine, I'd gotten some kind of model release for any of my unholy number of 40k armies, I most likely would have spend 250 bucks on that release instead of on my printer.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm lost profits at this point, at least for craftworld eldar.

I've got rigged up 3d models of most of the aspects at this point that I can put in any pose I want, and I've got a printer that can make them for 50c a miniature. If the howling banshees are anything to go off of, that's a cool 95% discount. If thoughout all 9 months of quarantine, I'd gotten some kind of model release for any of my unholy number of 40k armies, I most likely would have spend 250 bucks on that release instead of on my printer.

yep, Artel W is an even easier alternative than getting into 3d printing. Tons of eldar players are jumping on their minis instead of giving GW a cent. And i know many other source their minis from "alternative" sellers for a fraction of what GW would ask for their gakky finecast or overpriced Banshees/Incubi.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm lost profits at this point, at least for craftworld eldar.

I've got rigged up 3d models of most of the aspects at this point that I can put in any pose I want, and I've got a printer that can make them for 50c a miniature. If the howling banshees are anything to go off of, that's a cool 95% discount. If thoughout all 9 months of quarantine, I'd gotten some kind of model release for any of my unholy number of 40k armies, I most likely would have spend 250 bucks on that release instead of on my printer.

yep, Artel W is an even easier alternative than getting into 3d printing. Tons of eldar players are jumping on their minis instead of giving GW a cent. And i know many other source their minis from "alternative" sellers for a fraction of what GW would ask for their gakky finecast or overpriced Banshees/Incubi.

I mean, I guess they're a little bit cheaper, but honestly I'd just go for whatever is more aesthetically pleasing. 50$ for 6 vs 55$ for 5 isn't that much of a price differential.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm lost profits at this point, at least for craftworld eldar.

I've got rigged up 3d models of most of the aspects at this point that I can put in any pose I want, and I've got a printer that can make them for 50c a miniature. If the howling banshees are anything to go off of, that's a cool 95% discount. If thoughout all 9 months of quarantine, I'd gotten some kind of model release for any of my unholy number of 40k armies, I most likely would have spend 250 bucks on that release instead of on my printer.

Good for you, man. That's awesome. You're doing all the sculpting yourself?

 Insectum7 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm lost profits at this point, at least for craftworld eldar.

I've got rigged up 3d models of most of the aspects at this point that I can put in any pose I want, and I've got a printer that can make them for 50c a miniature. If the howling banshees are anything to go off of, that's a cool 95% discount. If thoughout all 9 months of quarantine, I'd gotten some kind of model release for any of my unholy number of 40k armies, I most likely would have spend 250 bucks on that release instead of on my printer.

Good for you, man. That's awesome. You're doing all the sculpting yourself?

God no, I'm not that good - I'm taking T-posed models that some wonderful person has posted up on thingiverse, rigging them up and sculpting some variations into them/increasing the polygon count.

At the end of the day, Eldar armor is relatively simplistic by GW standards, and they are all fairly uniform in terms of squad design. The most complicated thing I've had to do so far is create a hood-up version of my Ranger model, and adding all the extra rigging to his cloak.

So far I've done Dire Avengers, Warp Spiders, Rangers, Swooping Hawks, Dark Reapers, and Shining Spears (OK, so I just put in a rig to pivot the head and one to move the lance arm and I can choose to mirror the models to make them left handed if I want, I'm not getting that fancy with them)

I went to my local GW store once on a Sunday trip, deciding to make a day of it as it was over 50 miles away from me. Had a nice Chinese lunch, shopped at a few nice stores and finally got to the GW store. Went immediately saw the half shelf of Guard. Proceeded to not buy any models ask glumly if he had any other regiment that wasn't Cadian. Was told no, looked to the coffee mug and tape measure shelf and took one of each home.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yep, Artel W is an even easier alternative than getting into 3d printing. Tons of eldar players are jumping on their minis instead of giving GW a cent. And i know many other source their minis from "alternative" sellers for a fraction of what GW would ask for their gakky finecast or overpriced Banshees/Incubi.

Yeah... Came close to pulling the trigger on Artel's Archon substitute already- he's a great Vect stand in. Ditto on Artel's Grotesques. But I'm waiting for all the pre-dex release info before I proceed. Once the dex is in my hand, if there have been no releases for Vect or Grotesques, or announcements that give me hope for a second wave, Artel will get the money GW could have had.

 BlackoCatto wrote:
I went to my local GW store once on a Sunday trip, deciding to make a day of it as it was over 50 miles away from me. Had a nice Chinese lunch, shopped at a few nice stores and finally got to the GW store. Went immediately saw the half shelf of Guard. Proceeded to not buy any models ask glumly if he had any other regiment that wasn't Cadian. Was told no, looked to the coffee mug and tape measure shelf and took one of each home.

Lol why'd you buy the tape measure! You'd get better quality for less dough at a hardware store.

 Aenar wrote:
I keep hearing about how AoS is better and will grow to heavens but how come 40K is 5x bigger than AoS right now? (figure given by Reece on a FLG podcast a couple of weeks back)

This is such a weird question.

40k can still sell better even if AoS is a better game. There have been countless better games made but 40k sold better. Good sales is no indication of quality, but more marketability and market saturation.

Second, AoS has grown tremendously from its humble beginning even with the original hatred against it. Will it ever surpass 40k in sales? Doubt it as 40k has several decades of lead time and collections whereas AoS is a very fresh game that faced a lot of opposition initially. If you can't see how the age and market saturation can create difference in scale between the two games then nothing can answer your question.

However, considering the fact that GW is putting quite a bit of work into AoS is telling us that AoS is growing and they see some benefit from growing the product by investing heavily into it.

Again, weird question.

TBH GW's are my favourite tapemeasures for wargaming I have.
I take the sleeves off and they're much more compact than most hardware store versions. I don't need a meaty thing.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:
I went to my local GW store once on a Sunday trip, deciding to make a day of it as it was over 50 miles away from me. Had a nice Chinese lunch, shopped at a few nice stores and finally got to the GW store. Went immediately saw the half shelf of Guard. Proceeded to not buy any models ask glumly if he had any other regiment that wasn't Cadian. Was told no, looked to the coffee mug and tape measure shelf and took one of each home.

Lol why'd you buy the tape measure! You'd get better quality for less dough at a hardware store.

My hardware one if dropped on the table will smash to pieces any miniature under it.... it also also doesn't have a cool aquila.

I'm pretty impressed with the variety of responses and feelings.

There's of course a lot of the off topic tangents, but at the heart of it seems like a consensus: marines have gotten too much.

And a hope: other factions will take the spotlight.

Sadly, that hope has been echoed for a decade now. Even big-selling armies like Guard haven't gotten a decent update since 6th edition. Also, if GW wasn't interested in updating factions that only 5% of people play, then why even bother making Admech or Genestealer Cult? Why bother giving them such significant updates?

At the end of the day, I know much won't change. I know in a year we'll likely get another wave of space marines in another big box set. Half the box will be shiny new space marines that will be mono-pose but will get full kits later on. The other half of the box will be shiny new xenos/chaos models that will be mono-pose and still WONT get separate kits (oblits, venomcrawler, greater possessed??)

It's like many people have said, Space Marines aren't interesting without real threats to face.

As for my own hobby, I'm still plucking away at things. I have a Sisters of Battle army I'm building and painting and I've been chipping away at my Idoneth Deepkin, because those models are incredible.

Let's put it this way. It's like playing a video game that the developers have abandoned. Like City of Heroes. Sure, I could find some discord community and some private servers of people that still play it, but knowing that the game will never receive another update kills motivation to continue playing it. Part of the appeal of something is knowing that it'll keep being supported, because support means community, and community means more players.

Playing factions other than space marines almost feels like that. You just know that the devs aren't going to support them nearly as well, so it kills hype. I know that Sisters of Battle are going to get another update soon, which is great!! But after that, I wouldn't be surprised if Sisters didn't get any meaningful model support for another 5-10 years.

 BlackoCatto wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:
I went to my local GW store once on a Sunday trip, deciding to make a day of it as it was over 50 miles away from me. Had a nice Chinese lunch, shopped at a few nice stores and finally got to the GW store. Went immediately saw the half shelf of Guard. Proceeded to not buy any models ask glumly if he had any other regiment that wasn't Cadian. Was told no, looked to the coffee mug and tape measure shelf and took one of each home.

Lol why'd you buy the tape measure! You'd get better quality for less dough at a hardware store.

My hardware one if dropped on the table will smash to pieces any miniature under it.... it also also doesn't have a cool aquila.

*Looks at my half-ton tape measure of model-obliteration.*

You know, I never considered that.