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I know this was asked but I can’t find the answer. Is null deployment possible in 9E? If not, what rule proscribes it?

Normally no matched play restriction 50percent of your points must deploy on the battlefield

I can't remember but I think drop pods and only drop pods get around this but only if your whole army was in drop pods

The Matched Play and Crusade mission rules stipulate that no more than 1/2 the total number of units and no more than 1/2 your armies points/power level may be placed into Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcements at the beginning of the game (see Step 10 of the mission rules).

The one exception I am aware of is the Drop Pod Assault ability that exempts the Drop Pod an the units embarked it in from the maximum number of units you can place in Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcements. The rules are unclear how this impacts the points/power level section of that limitation.

Its not unclear. In 8th you could null deploy, because the pod ignored the tactical reserves rule, that rule had the 50% deploy part in it. But not anymore.

Drop Pod Assault
This transport must start the battle set up high in the skies (see Death From Above pg 125) but neither it, nor any units embarked within it, are counted towards any limits that the mission you are playing places on the maximum number of Reinforcements units you can have in your army. This trasnport can be set up in the Reinforcements step of your first, second or third Movement phase, regardless of any mission rules, and they must set up more than 9" away from any enemy models. After this trasnport has been set up on the battlefield, no units can embark within it.

The tactical reserves rule is gone now, and drop pod assault doesnt say anything about ignoring the 50% deployment rule, it only gives you permission to set up your pod in the first, second or third movement phase.

 p5freak wrote:
Its not unclear. In 8th you could null deploy, because the pod ignored the tactical reserves rule, that rule had the 50% deploy part in it. But not anymore.

Drop Pod Assault
This transport must start the battle set up high in the skies (see Death From Above pg 125) but neither it, nor any units embarked within it, are counted towards any limits that the mission you are playing places on the maximum number of Reinforcements units you can have in your army. This trasnport can be set up in the Reinforcements step of your first, second or third Movement phase, regardless of any mission rules, and they must set up more than 9" away from any enemy models. After this trasnport has been set up on the battlefield, no units can embark within it.

The tactical reserves rule is gone now, and drop pod assault doesnt say anything about ignoring the 50% deployment rule, it only gives you permission to set up your pod in the first, second or third movement phase.

This part specifically aloows it though:

Drop Pod Assault
This transport must start the battle set up high in the skies (see Death From Above pg 125) but neither it, nor any units embarked within it, are counted towards any limits that the mission you are playing places on the maximum number of Reinforcements units you can have in your army.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Its not unclear. In 8th you could null deploy, because the pod ignored the tactical reserves rule, that rule had the 50% deploy part in it. But not anymore.

Drop Pod Assault
This transport must start the battle set up high in the skies (see Death From Above pg 125) but neither it, nor any units embarked within it, are counted towards any limits that the mission you are playing places on the maximum number of Reinforcements units you can have in your army. This trasnport can be set up in the Reinforcements step of your first, second or third Movement phase, regardless of any mission rules, and they must set up more than 9" away from any enemy models. After this trasnport has been set up on the battlefield, no units can embark within it.

The tactical reserves rule is gone now, and drop pod assault doesnt say anything about ignoring the 50% deployment rule, it only gives you permission to set up your pod in the first, second or third movement phase.

This part specifically aloows it though:

Drop Pod Assault
This transport must start the battle set up high in the skies (see Death From Above pg 125) but neither it, nor any units embarked within it, are counted towards any limits that the mission you are playing places on the maximum number of Reinforcements units you can have in your army.

The part in red says nothing about Points or Power Level. Hence the issue with it being unclear. It can be inferred that they are implying the limit on Points/Power Level is lifted. You can also say it isn't clearly stated as changed and therefore is not.

I still don't see any unclarity. The total number of units in pods, and drop pods themselves, can exceed 50% of your entire army, but the total number of points can't be more than 50% of your entire army.

Oh Man-Emperor not this again.

In 8th you could null deploy with pods, in 9th you cannot.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/794544.page#11002844

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/794544.page#11006923

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
The restriction to the amount of points you can spend on units for reinforcements is still a restriction dictating the maximum number of units a player can can put into reinforcement.

"The combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value"

Every TO I have encountered, goonhammer and battle report I have seen has played as though FB can null deploy as the above line is describes a restriction to the "maximum number of reinforcement units " a player may have.

@BCB I have yet to meet anyone until just now who has concluded that you can not null deploy a drop pod.

In fact, considering drop pods MUST be deployed in deep strike and, there is no restriction from including them at list creation, if your reading was correct the game would immediately break at the declare reinforcements stage of a match.

Of course you'd come to that conclusion when you're selectively quoting only half the rules. This is a prime example of, given the highly bespoke and slipshod nature of GW's rules writing, you must never take shortcuts or half quote rules.

This is what the rule regarding Reserves and Transports, in full, actually states.

Core Rulebook, Page 282, Eternal War Mission Pack, Section 10. Declare Reserves and Transports wrote:No more than half the total number of units in your army can be Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units, and the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.

Please note the use of the conjunctive "and" highlighted above, along with an Oxford comma, indicating that it is connecting two different clauses.

As you can see, we have two, linked but independent restrictions. The first restriction is:

No more than half the total number of units in your army can be Strategic Reserve and/ or Reinforcement units [...]

Whilst the second restriction is:

[...]the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.

Now, let's look at the rules for Drop Pod Assault

Codex: Space Marines (2020), Page 190, Drop Pod Datasheet, Abilities section wrote:Drop Pod Assault: This transport must start the battle set up high in the skies (see Death From Above) but neither it, nor any units embarked within it, are counted towards any limits that the mission you are playing places on the maximum number of Reinforcement units you can have in your army. This transport can be set up in the Reinforcements step of your first, second or third Movement phase, regardless of any mission rules. Any units embarked within this transport must immediately disembark after it has been set up on the battlefield, and they must be set up more than 9" away from any enemy models. After this transport has been set up on the battlefield, no units can embark within it.

Please note the clause highlighted above. Drop Pod Assault means that the Drop Pod and the unit inside it are not "counted towards" the limit set by the first clause of the Section 10. Declare Reserves and Transports paragraph quoted above. There is no such provision for them to not be "counted towards" the limit set by the second clause of the Section 10. Declare Reserves and Transports paragraph quoted above.

Your assertation that Space Marines can Null Deploy if the entire army is embarked within Drop Pods was a correct assertation under the Warhammer 40,000 8th edition ruleset and the Codex: Space Marines (2019) ruleset, but it is not correct under the Warhammer 40,000 9th edition ruleset and the Codex: Space Marines (2020) ruleset.

The game would not "break" as you claim. You would be forced by the rules to place your empty Drop Pods in reserves, with no units embarked, in order to have a legal deployment where a minimum of 50% of your points value are on the board. If you somehow took 1001 points of Drop Pods in a 2000 point limit game, for example, then this would be a legitimate time to invoke TMIR as the rules do not cover what happens in this scenario.

Yeah which is not black and white because number of units/% could be considered a limit. And so the drop pod could overule that. I say could because it is matter of what you determine mission limits to be. The writing is unclear and so it is a matter of interpretation

Quoting a 3 page rules thread on the issue just shows the ambiguity and while I recognise your interpretation BCB as potentially being valid the alternative also has the potential to be valid and its disingenuous to be 100% certain in this instance

The sheer amount of discussion that's been had on this issue proves it's unclear.
As was mentioned in those other threads, Drop Pods are exempt from ANY restrictions on the number of units.
Restriction the total points of units is also a restriction on the number of units, hence the argument in favour of null deploying.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The sheer amount of discussion that's been had on this issue proves it's unclear.
As was mentioned in those other threads, Drop Pods are exempt from ANY restrictions on the number of units.
Restriction the total points of units is also a restriction on the number of units, hence the argument in favour of null deploying.

It is clear, I spelled it out very clearly. You disliking the answer doesn't make it unclear.

Funny, I could say the same for you.

What's the purpose of "any" in the sentence if it's only ever going to refer to that one specific rule?
Answer: because it's not meant to refer just to that one rule. It's meant to cover any rules.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Funny, I could say the same for you.

What's the purpose of "any" in the sentence if it's only ever going to refer to that one specific rule?
Answer: because it's not meant to refer just to that one rule. It's meant to cover any rules.

The difference is I parse the rules as strict RAW, that's kind of my thing. I don't leave anything to "intention" or "Interpretation".

There's no such thing, all language is interpretation.
We fundamentally interpret what the words are referring to differently here.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
There's no such thing, all language is interpretation.
We fundamentally interpret what the words are referring to differently here.

Loglan would disagree.

You got me, all English language then

To some degree even real judges interpret the laws.

Sometimes a rule/law can really be interpretated in multiple ways, even if they lead to opposite results. And both ways could be correct.

HOO BOY did I not mean to open a can of worms. I just couldn't find the rule.

Mods, if you want to close this thread, I got my answer!

Thanks!

 Octopoid wrote:
I know this was asked but I can’t find the answer. Is null deployment possible in 9E? If not, what rule proscribes it?

Yes, but only with Drop Pods.

 jaredb wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:
I know this was asked but I can’t find the answer. Is null deployment possible in 9E? If not, what rule proscribes it?

Yes, but only with Drop Pods.

No, not even with Drop Pods (as explained above).

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 jaredb wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:
I know this was asked but I can’t find the answer. Is null deployment possible in 9E? If not, what rule proscribes it?

Yes, but only with Drop Pods.

No, not even with Drop Pods (as explained above).

Discuss with your opponent beforehand if an all Drop Pod army is going to be potentially involved, to make sure the two of you are in agreement.

I think the Deceiver might allow Necrons to Null deploy (with the similar arguments to above) since the latest FAQ:

‘If the mission uses the Strategic Reserves rules, any of those units can be placed into Strategic Reserves without having to spend any additional CPs, regardless of how many units are already in Strategic Reserves

I've null deployed in combat patrols w/ GSC, 3 units in reserve then three shoved underground during blip reveal.

In theory you could do a pseudo-null deploy on a 7th using return to the shadows but that unit would have to be placed on the board rather than behind a blip. so deployed but in your first turn they're gone.

Ah this again.

GSC and Drop Pods can do it in theory, but I do not really think it is strategic wise.

First the rules that say you need 50% of models and points on the table is in the grand tournament 2020 rules under missions. And not in the core rules. (I do not know how this is for crusades, I have never played or read the rules for that.)

Drop pods have wordings that allow them to ignore mission restrictions, and it is only mission restrictions that prevent this. If you play the grand tournament 2020 missions.

A copy of the rules for drop pods will be posted further bellow. However it is 70 points per drop pod! Many of your best units can not use one. At 500 points perhaps you are looking at 2 drop pods, that is 140 points! Imagine 5 to 8 drop pods at 2000 points, that is 350 to 560 points in useless transports.

GSC cult deploys in blips. They have a stratagem to putt 3 blips back into reserves. But as soon as you have 7 units it is no longer possible to null deploy.


Rules for drop pods:
'
Drop Pod Assault: This transport must start the battle set up high in the skies (see Death From Above) but neither it, nor any units embarked within it, are counted towards any limits that the mission you are playing places on the maximum number of Reinforcement units you can have in your army. This transport can be set up in the Reinforcements step of your first, second or third Movement phase, regardless of any mission rules. Any units embarked within this transport must immediately disembark after it has been set up on the battlefield, and they must be set up more than 9" away from any enemy models. After this transport has been set up on the battlefield, no units can embark within it.'

Update: After reading through it once more I might have been a bit glib. As it would appear there is only restriction on number of units, and not points that the drop pod ignore. As well as the arive from reserve first turn rule.

I would however like to point out how bad the idea of nuldeployment by way of drop pods would be. They cost to much.

Oh, I'm not thinking of doing it. My opponent is a GSC player, who likes the idea of his entire army being burrowed in before battle. He's probably not going to do it either, even with the blips thing, but it is funny, I have to admit.

 Niiai wrote:
First the rules that say you need 50% of models and points on the table is in the grand tournament 2020 rules under missions. And not in the core rules. (I do not know how this is for crusades, I have never played or read the rules for that.)

This restriction exist in both the Matched Play Eternal Missions and the Crusade Missions in the Basic Rulebook. It is not restricted to the Grand Tournament 2020 Mission Pack. It is step 10 of the play a game sequence.

Right, but as others have pointed out, DPs have a special rule that has not been changed for 9th, that allows them to break this, right?

And GSC are just dumb and should go away.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
And GSC are just dumb and should go away.

My opponent, who loves his GSC, would disagree vehemently with you.

As I would hope he would. I also hate GI Joes, He Man figures, and MLP. I am sick of figures shifting what men should look like. First it was ABS, then it was hair, now it's FOUR ARMS?

 alextroy wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
First the rules that say you need 50% of models and points on the table is in the grand tournament 2020 rules under missions. And not in the core rules. (I do not know how this is for crusades, I have never played or read the rules for that.)

This restriction exist in both the Matched Play Eternal Missions and the Crusade Missions in the Basic Rulebook. It is not restricted to the Grand Tournament 2020 Mission Pack. It is step 10 of the play a game sequence.

Quild you quote it please? I do not mind being wrong. And it is mostly theoretical at this point. But I can not find any place in the core rules that supports your claim. I might be looking in the wrong place.

I do find it under eternal war missions that starts on page 280 in the main rulebook. But those are rules spesefic to those missions. Witch the drop pod partially ignores.

Drop Pod Assault: This transport must start the battle set up high in the skies (see Death From Above) but neither it, nor any units embarked within it, are counted towards any limits that the mission you are playing places on the maximum number of Reinforcement units you can have in your army. This transport can be set up in the Reinforcements step of your first, second or third Movement phase, regardless of any mission rules. Any units embarked within this transport must immediately disembark after it has been set up on the battlefield, and they must be set up more than 9" away from any enemy models. After this transport has been set up on the battlefield, no units can embark within it.'

The only other time the core rules mentioned this is here: