Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I've seen a lot of discussion on Chaos Cultist and Renegade Guard lately as the new edition seems to be soft squatting them along with their models and I went around looking for viable replacements for themed armies. Honestly, visually the best I can find are Necromunda models, but I've seen at least one person say that they stand at a similar size to SM which is somewhat of lore problem with them being mostly unmodified humans. Only Goliath Gangers should be close to SM size, so while they look the part in appearance, the models are not ideal. My search eventually led me the Genestealer Cults.

I noticed that despite the odd Tyranid-like thing on some of the more human models, they actually look rather perfect for Chaos Cultists and Renegade Guard. They have IG uniforms and Lasguns in the Brood Brothers as well as a selection of Autoguns and Autopistols in the Neophyte Hybrids with only minor visual connections to Tyranids that can easily be cut away and/or replaced by Chaos symbols or even simply ignored as warp mutations. Same with the crew of their vehicles, especially if they can use most if not all normal IG models and vehicles as I believe they can. Even a number of their special units appear more human than Tyranid further lending to this idea.

That said, I had a side thought that I think would be really cool. I'm not sure how it would all work since it would somewhat mix existing armies and factions, but I think it would be really fun to play them as an actual Chaos Cultist or Renegade Guard army using most of their normal rules but reflavored for Chaos, as well as replacing the more Tyranid-like models with similar models from Chaos lines. You could really get the Cultist sect feel going by running a bunch of Brood Brothers as Renegade Guard, Hybrid Neophytes as Cultists, their normal selection of vehicles and such, with some CSM as HQ and Elite choices. Say instead of a Broodcoven or Acolyte Iconward you could have a Dark Apostle or Chaos Lord. You wouldn't be able to take Aberrants or Hybrid Metamorphs, but instead you could have Possessed or the Elite related to the chosen god of your Warlord if you don't go Undivided. Obviously you couldn't take Acolyte Hybrids either, but perhaps you could take an Aspiring Champion instead. What would differentiate this army from just a CSM army with a lot of Cultists is that you wouldn't be able to field CSM Vehicles or Daemon Engines, but you'd have access to the GSC and IG vehicle line.

Again, any options that physically relate to Tyranids wouldn't be available and any non-physical options that relate to Tyranids would have to be carefully checked for viability as a Chaos Equivalent, but I think as a whole it should be fine for non-tournament games. As lone as you use the proper stats and point costs for the models you're using, I can't think of any reason why this wouldn't work. It's not like CSM nor IG have any big army wide rules to mess up like SM Combat Doctrines, nor is there any longer a separate army for Chaos Cultists and Renegade Guard to infringe upon.

TLDR: I think it would be really cool to use the less Tyranid-like models from GSC along side IG models and a few choice CSM models as a Chaos Cultist/Renegade Guard army. What do you all think?

I like them myself for this purpose best in print count as chaos Cultist models in my opinion after looking around. But then again it boggles my mind that GW doesn’t have an official kit for a troops option of a major faction to buy. But more marines I guess right?

Honestly, GW does a lot of things now that boggle the mind. My parents just got me the Start Collecting CSM as a gift and I was incredibly surprised to find out that the generic CSM in the box are monopose. I expected all the other models that are only available in that box to be monopose, but I never even considered the possibility that they'd make brand new sculpts and sprues for a monopose basic squad when they already have the regular sprues. I mean, does it actually save them enough money on plastic to go through the effort of sculpting the monopose models, figuring out the precise layout of the new sprue, and creating a new mold for said sprue to offset the extra material and loss of selling value if they just used the normal sprues? If all 8th Ed Start Collecting boxes are like that, then they really failed on the "also a great way to expand an existing force" aspect of the Start Collecting boxes selling points. No one wants a bunch of exactly the same models with no options in their army anymore. Now that I have that box once, I will never again be tempted to buy a copy of it since it's all monopose. If the basic CSM were the normal sprues with options, I would be interested in getting it again to expand my forces while getting more of the exclusive models even if they are monopose, but not when even the basic guys are monopose.

In addition to that, another thing that is mind boggling is the GSC Brood Brothers box. If you are an IG player looking for more Shock Troops and Heavy Weapons Teams, then the cheapest way to get them is to buy Brood Brothers. 1x Brood Brothers box includes 1x Cadian Shock Troops, 1x Cadian Heavy Weapons Team, and 1x GSC Upgrade Frame for $45. 1x Cadian Shock Troops is $36, 3x Heavy Weapons Team is $40 (so 1x Heavy Weapons Team is ~$13.34), and 1x GSC Upgrade Frame is $12.50. That means that 1x Brood Brothers is $45 but includes $61.84 worth of sprues. That means as a IG player, you can buy 1x Brood Brothers and 1x Shock Troops and 1x Heavy Weapons Team at a $4.34 discount and have a $12.50 GSC Upgrade Sprue for free that you can do whatever you want with, including selling or trading for complete profit.

The modern CSM Start Collecting is the previous Chaos side of Shadowspear, similar to how the Primaris side is now a start collecting Phobos(?).

While Start Collecting is generally the most 'bang for your buck' with regards to total amount of models included, it's important to remember that it's intended to be a starting point for an army. As such they're often used to get more mileage out sprues (the mentioned monopose ones) or move older kits which haven't been getting much action (the Tyranid box).

 morganfreeman wrote:
The modern CSM Start Collecting is the previous Chaos side of Shadowspear, similar to how the Primaris side is now a start collecting Phobos(?).

While Start Collecting is generally the most 'bang for your buck' with regards to total amount of models included, it's important to remember that it's intended to be a starting point for an army. As such they're often used to get more mileage out sprues (the mentioned monopose ones) or move older kits which haven't been getting much action (the Tyranid box).

I had forgotten that the Start Collecting CSM and Start Collecting Vanguard Marines were just the two halves of Shadowspear, so that makes a lot more sense. I guess the models in the Vanguard box are also all monopose then. They also seem to have dropped the part about expanding your army from their description. I can't tell for certain just by looking at them, but it seems like the CSM and Primaris boxes are the only ones they skimped on like that. Still, I am rather disappointed by that change and hope they go back to using normal kits so they can also be a good deal for expanding an army as well as getting into the game.

Luckily the new Combat Patrol boxes seem to be doing just that, though once again they're making them more expensive boxes with a bit more models which kinda reduces the chances of them being picked up by new players in my opinion. I doubt most people probably are going to want to try out a new hobby with spending $250 on it, which thanks to those boxes and the hefty price of the Core Rules and Codices is the new "starting minimum" in a sense if you want something other than what comes in the official three-tier starter boxes. And that doesn't even include paints, brushes, glue, etc.

Once they fully transition over to Combat Patrol boxes, it looks like the average starting price for a brand new player purchasing everything from GW required to build, paint, and play an army in 9th is going to be roughly $300. $140 Combat Patrol box as a base army, $65 Core Rules, $50 Codex (+ $30 for Supplement if you pick an army that requires it), $45 for Paint and Tools Set (+ whatever other paints you need for your army), and $7.35 for Glue. That's a minimum or $307.35 for a base army whose colors come in the Paint and tools set, such as Ultramarines and Necrons. If you want a Subfaction like Dark Angels, that's roughly $350 to add in the Supplement and extra paints needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well shoot. Right after posting all that, I realized we've gotten way off topic. Let's try to focus back on the idea of making a semi-homebrew Cultists/Renegades army out of GSC, IG, and a few CSM models.

I feel personaly spoken too:
Shameless project blog link for Daemoncult ptoject. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660/766717.page

Personal oppinion: GSC (especially the codex) lends itself well for the types of semi professional revolutionary forces, aka Cults, Mutants and workers rising.
The tyranid forehead bit can be easily circumvented via scalpel, and even the more mutated bits from acolythes can be easily combined with cheaply available bloodletter bits and other chaos thingies to be obvious mutated chaos worshippers or in my case possessed. I did buy 60 Wargames atlantic WW1 germans to tie them back to my R&H force (Thanks GW for yeeting them i am sure the space for more Leutnants will pay off ) you will need some detail eye and some greenstuff skills to plaster over the wyrm symbol that is basically on any and all GSC units.

The way i went about is:
Patriach --> Skulltaker.
Magus --> BSF Psyker.
Sanctus --> Conversion
Kellermorph--> Conversion
Nexos --> Conversion

Etc...

So in reagards to TLDR: Yes you can use the GSC dex to represent some of the more mutated aspects of chaos rather well. And you got new plastics too boot which are somewhat easily convertible.

Does the GSC dex allow for equally aswell representation of R&H as IA 13 allowed you too? Nope, not close, but close enough and better than the drivel GW calls legends.

I think the GSC vehicles are very specific to one type of uprising, yes, using excavation vehicles in a rebellion is cool, but in most cases, I don't think Rockgrinders make sense. Someone really needs to make some 3d models for armoured limousines etc. in the right sizes with the right things mounted on them to serve as proxies for the GSC vehicles.

I am in the middle of writing rules for using the Adepta Sororitas, Astra Militarum and Adeptus Mechanicus rules to play as Chaos Sisters, Renegades and Heretics and Dark Mechanicus. I have written all the rules for chapter-specific orders, psalms, Warlord traits, Stratagems and Relics. I thought it all got lost with a pc shut down was just getting started on generic stuff, but I recovered most of it on my Google drive just now. I think I'll post it in a couple of days in proposed rules, I was actually about to rewrite the whole thing from scratch.

I never considered allowing the use of GSC units and vehicles. The infiltration mechanics do make sense for some Chaos renegades, but I was mostly thinking of Vraksian style militaries using more regular tactics and less infiltration. I wrote rules for a Tzeentchian Chaos cult that has been destroyed by the Grey Knights, perhaps it would make sense to replace it with a GSC-style Chaos cult.

I think using the rules for Patriarchs, Aberrants etc. would be totally fine by representing them model-wise with daemons and possessed humans.

Colour me intrigued vict0988.

I've got something like 150-200 Power, which I believe translates to about 4k(?), of Renegades and Heretics I started about five years ago now. I use the AM codex because since 8th dropped R&H were awful and only useful for Malefic Lord detachments. I use Cadians, Catachans, Dark Vengeance Cultists, Empire Flagellants, the OOP R&H upgrade kits, GSC cultists, and Vostroyans as infantry that range from basic Guardsmen to Veterans and Command Squads. If you're looking for GW models I would take a look at Pete the Wargamer's conversion guides for cultists (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDCx2SP6thl7r42CkTdblLA).
I've tried using the GSC codex but it's too Tyranid IMO to use as a basis for a Chaos Cult army. There's definitely potential for conversions but I've found it's far too much effort to find or convert equivalent models for units like Abbherants or Stealers.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Colour me intrigued vict0988.

The Sisters rules are very memey and probably sexist and definitely not remotely canon so I think I'll remove them before I post the rules. If anyone is interested despite that you can PM me.

 vict0988 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Colour me intrigued vict0988.

The Sisters rules are very memey and probably sexist and definitely not remotely canon so I think I'll remove them before I post the rules. If anyone is interested despite that you can PM me.

well there was that one slaanesh sister right?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Colour me intrigued vict0988.

The Sisters rules are very memey and probably sexist and definitely not remotely canon so I think I'll remove them before I post the rules. If anyone is interested despite that you can PM me.

well there was that one slaanesh sister right?

Yep, DeviantArt convinced me there were more :p

 vict0988 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Colour me intrigued vict0988.

The Sisters rules are very memey and probably sexist and definitely not remotely canon so I think I'll remove them before I post the rules. If anyone is interested despite that you can PM me.

well there was that one slaanesh sister right?

Yep, DeviantArt convinced me there were more :p

well tbf, that one got to be one with her armor.
Also the sister dex aludes to orders that got "purged", but then again there's also the Cult tenebrous (?) in the GSC dex pointing out that even they can be corrupted

This is all very cool and I would be interested in seeing those rewrites when you get around to them. I think it would be cool to mix in some Chaos Sisters as well. To be honest, I was planning on getting some different heads to mix into the GSC and replace the more Tyranid ones. Something like some old Empire Men-at-Arms helmets or similar to give that "we used what we could and made what we needed" feel. That's kinda what I picture a cultist uprising on an Imperial world would look like. Sure some civilians cultists would get their hands on good gear, but most would have to scavenge or make it themselves, so a more medieval look with antiquated weapons and armor would fit in my mind. As for using the models I mentioned replacing with CSM options slightly converted for Chaos mutations, I did consider that, but part of my idea was to give the army a more recent uprising led by CSM infiltrators feel, hence the limited CSM in HQ and Elite options as opposed to just copy/pasting the entire codex under a new theme. Some things would be possible to keep, such as the ambush tactics, others wouldn't make much sense such as the Magus Spiritual Leader ability, especially if you made the cult devoted to Khorne so no Psykers anyway. If you made it devoted to Tzeench you might be able to argue it staying I suppose though.

Basically, what I really wanted to see with this idea was a CSM led Cultist force that focused on the hoard of devoted cultists one would see in the beginning stage of a planned Chaos Incursion rather than the bunch of CSM with a few cultist hangers on you get with the 8th Ed CSM codex.

I also wanted to be able to expand it into a full on H&R type army to represent the aftermath of such an Incursion, when the population has been almost entirely converted including the remnants of the IG forces on the planet. The CSM have mostly left for new battlefields at that point, with only a few opportunistic warbands and lords hanging around to fight the last holdout defenders and the inevitable attempts to retake the lost world.

Those are the two I really want to see out of this, but throwing in the option for a few choice squads of Chaos Sisters would be a fun addition. Maybe the planet was the home of a Sisters Fortress-Temple or was near enough to one that some were sent to their death or corruption in a futile attempt to stem the rise of Chaos in the sector. Maybe it could be done with a rule that says "You may include up to one Infantry unit from each of the following factions per 500 points or XX Power Levels in the army [CSM, Chaos Daemons, or Corrupted Sisters] and one unit from the faction Chaos Knights per 1000 points or 2XX Power Levels."

I play in a very very permissive environment so I might try some of these ideas out. Corrupted Sororitas sounds like fun