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So a skew list taking advantage of a single rules interaction is what defines a codex? These lists often do not survive the nerfbat, and I expect that will eventually happen with DT. GW will just need to see more data before making the cut

Can we also please note that a xenos faction is coming out of the gate fairly clearly ahead of the power curve and of the people who play them regularly only two seem to be saying "nah theyre fine no nerfs coming down the pipe"?




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And one of them is Dakkas current resident living meme?

 bullyboy wrote:
So a skew list taking advantage of a single rules interaction is what defines a codex? These lists often do not survive the nerfbat, and I expect that will eventually happen with DT. GW will just need to see more data before making the cut

Not to dig at you personally. DA did survive the nerf bat. So GW track record is not good here.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Can we also please note that a xenos faction is coming out of the gate fairly clearly ahead of the power curve and of the people who play them regularly only two seem to be saying "nah theyre fine no nerfs coming down the pipe"?




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And one of them is Dakkas current resident living meme?

Ahhh, the old “Paper is over powered, Scissors fine, thank you, Rock” quandary.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
So a skew list taking advantage of a single rules interaction is what defines a codex? These lists often do not survive the nerfbat, and I expect that will eventually happen with DT. GW will just need to see more data before making the cut

Not to dig at you personally. DA did survive the nerf bat. So GW track record is not good here.

Because that was a perceived problem that hasn't been backed up by tournament data. It also isn't a single skew build.
I doubt much will get hit by nerfbat, but if a list (like shown earlier with liquifier spam) consistently outperforms in tournaments, it will be managed.
It takes data, not speculation, which was what was used with DA.

Drukhari are a tough beast now, but barring crazy Rust rule interaction and Reaver misinformation I don't think they are the end of all creation. I have played many games against the new Drukhari and I have yet to lose with my Death Guard. I have to earn my victory while playing, but that is how the best games are supposed to be.

I am going to be honest and I think a lot of people got complacent in the old Marine meta expecting that marines was the only thing you were ever going to face. If you build your army just to kill a certain meta then you are going to be hit hard when it shifts.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Can we also please note that a xenos faction is coming out of the gate fairly clearly ahead of the power curve and of the people who play them regularly only two seem to be saying "nah theyre fine no nerfs coming down the pipe"?




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And one of them is Dakkas current resident living meme?

Ahhh, the old “Paper is over powered, Scissors fine, thank you, Rock” quandary.

No mostly just mentioning it because during the two-year Reign of The Space Marine I recall oft being told "well, whenever a xenos army gets OP everyone just tells the marine players to 'git gud' and they're all defensive and mean about it!"

Here we are, most competitive players are saying Drukhari are Tier 1 good, we haven't seen any actually solid data but it's pretty clear from batreps and a few test games that there are some pretty wackadoodle combos in there, and all the drukhari players for the most part are saying 'yep, there's some zany stuff in that there book, hope they nerf it like this or that'.

Like at most you've got people salty at the extremely fast knee-jerk hate reaction from the fine folks who defended marines as A-OK for a full year and half now demanding heavy nerfs based on the data from like 3 20-man tournaments, and a couple folks one of whom is extremely notorious for his goofy takes on balance in denial and saying everything is fine.

Where's the 'git gud marine noobs'? where's the 'well marines were OP so I'm glad they get stomped on' that still on the reg gets thrown out at Eldar and Tau?


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 Eldarsif wrote:
Drukhari are a tough beast now, but barring crazy Rust rule interaction and Reaver misinformation I don't think they are the end of all creation. I have played many games against the new Drukhari and I have yet to lose with my Death Guard. I have to earn my victory while playing, but that is how the best games are supposed to be.

I am going to be honest and I think a lot of people got complacent in the old Marine meta expecting that marines was the only thing you were ever going to face. If you build your army just to kill a certain meta then you are going to be hit hard when it shifts.

I am looking forward to the test game I'm going to be playing against the only other drukhari player in my area with my Deathwatch. I think my TAC list should be in a decent place to take on what he's likely to throw at me, but we'll see.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Can we also please note that a xenos faction is coming out of the gate fairly clearly ahead of the power curve and of the people who play them regularly only two seem to be saying "nah theyre fine no nerfs coming down the pipe"?




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And one of them is Dakkas current resident living meme?

Ahhh, the old “Paper is over powered, Scissors fine, thank you, Rock” quandary.

I think it once more shows the limits of the much vaunted 'playtesting'. its might be happening but its clearly not testing to destruction, and I suspect the Rust book stuff, most likely Event related, didnt get any, along with pet ideas being left as is regardless of feedback

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Can we also please note that a xenos faction is coming out of the gate fairly clearly ahead of the power curve and of the people who play them regularly only two seem to be saying "nah theyre fine no nerfs coming down the pipe"?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And one of them is Dakkas current resident living meme?

Ahhh, the old “Paper is over powered, Scissors fine, thank you, Rock” quandary.

I think it once more shows the limits of the much vaunted 'playtesting'. its might be happening but its clearly not testing to destruction, and I suspect the Rust book stuff, most likely Event related, didnt get any, along with pet ideas being left as is regardless of feedback

Ignoring the Book of Rust, which...yeah it is what it is, the book is a really well done book. A huge variety of options and playstyles. Almost no bad units. Plenty of choice in terms of army construction.

I don't say this to deny that there are problems, but it is a wonderful book and an enormous improvement.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Can we also please note that a xenos faction is coming out of the gate fairly clearly ahead of the power curve and of the people who play them regularly only two seem to be saying "nah theyre fine no nerfs coming down the pipe"?




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And one of them is Dakkas current resident living meme?

Ahhh, the old “Paper is over powered, Scissors fine, thank you, Rock” quandary.

No mostly just mentioning it because during the two-year Reign of The Space Marine I recall oft being told "well, whenever a xenos army gets OP everyone just tells the marine players to 'git gud' and they're all defensive and mean about it!"

Here we are, most competitive players are saying Drukhari are Tier 1 good, we haven't seen any actually solid data but it's pretty clear from batreps and a few test games that there are some pretty wackadoodle combos in there, and all the drukhari players for the most part are saying 'yep, there's some zany stuff in that there book, hope they nerf it like this or that'.

Like at most you've got people salty at the extremely fast knee-jerk hate reaction from the fine folks who defended marines as A-OK for a full year and half now demanding heavy nerfs based on the data from like 3 20-man tournaments, and a couple folks one of whom is extremely notorious for his goofy takes on balance in denial and saying everything is fine.

Where's the 'git gud marine noobs'? where's the 'well marines were OP so I'm glad they get stomped on' that still on the reg gets thrown out at Eldar and Tau?


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 Eldarsif wrote:
Drukhari are a tough beast now, but barring crazy Rust rule interaction and Reaver misinformation I don't think they are the end of all creation. I have played many games against the new Drukhari and I have yet to lose with my Death Guard. I have to earn my victory while playing, but that is how the best games are supposed to be.

I am going to be honest and I think a lot of people got complacent in the old Marine meta expecting that marines was the only thing you were ever going to face. If you build your army just to kill a certain meta then you are going to be hit hard when it shifts.

I am looking forward to the test game I'm going to be playing against the only other drukhari player in my area with my Deathwatch. I think my TAC list should be in a decent place to take on what he's likely to throw at me, but we'll see.

Well, i'll be honest, I have said in the past to several notorious Marine defenders to "git gud ya noobz". I especially loved saying that in 7th when I would beat Marine players at tournaments and they would sit there on their soap box and loudly proclaim to anyone who would listen that SM's were under powered garbage and Orkz were desperately in need of nerfs because they as a whole were OP. This carried over to Index 8th where I was running Kommandos and boyz and the SM players were running Girlyman gunlines and complaining that Orkz were OP and in need of nerfz. This further carried over into 8.5 where I would bring a unit of Tankbustas, suicide them near an Imperial Knight and use the grenade strat on them followed by shoot twice if it needed it Apparently Ork tankbustas were OP as well.

All of that is to say that in my limited experience, an unfortunate number of Space Marine players will complain about power level when their plan goes awry or when they just lose. Ive been told in no uncertain terms that Orkz boyz in 9th over powered because they were able to die slowly enough to hold objectives and win the game. Keep in mind between the end of 8th and 9th so far ork boyz have received...no buffz and have gone up in price 14%

As far as the "git gud" from deserving armies, I do remember a fair amount of Eldar players saying something similar when they were at the height of their 7th edition ridiculous level of power, D-cannon wraithknights, scatbikes, warpspiders etc. I do remember Tau players having a bit more humility as they slammed 3 riptides onto the table, they for the most part admitted it was broken OP nonsense, but in their defense it was also one of the few things they were able to do to keep from getting tabled turn 3.

SemperMortis wrote:
As far as the "git gud" from deserving armies, I do remember a fair amount of Eldar players saying something similar when they were at the height of their 7th edition ridiculous level of power, D-cannon wraithknights, scatbikes, warpspiders etc. I do remember Tau players having a bit more humility as they slammed 3 riptides onto the table, they for the most part admitted it was broken OP nonsense, but in their defense it was also one of the few things they were able to do to keep from getting tabled turn 3.

I think the history of 40k online is Eldar and Marine players calling the other entitled, while Chaos moan they've not had anything good since 2002.
Other factions are not really appearing in this film.

Tyel wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
As far as the "git gud" from deserving armies, I do remember a fair amount of Eldar players saying something similar when they were at the height of their 7th edition ridiculous level of power, D-cannon wraithknights, scatbikes, warpspiders etc. I do remember Tau players having a bit more humility as they slammed 3 riptides onto the table, they for the most part admitted it was broken OP nonsense, but in their defense it was also one of the few things they were able to do to keep from getting tabled turn 3.

I think the history of 40k online is Eldar and Marine players calling the other entitled, while Chaos moan they've not had anything good since 2002.
Other factions are not really appearing in this film.

There were the minor storylines of Dark Eldar and Sister of Battle players saying, how nice that you've gotten anything, but these plot lines have been resolved

It doesn't bode very well that a lot of the trouble (not all, there's also DT, but a lot) with Drukhari comes from the Day-1 DLC. It's not a good sign when the very first DLC creates or at least seriously contributes to what looks to be the first really broken army of 9th edition.

Maybe for the enjoyment of the game it could be a problem, specially if someone doesn't play a good army. But w40k seems to be going through phases of having some factions be a lot more powerful then the other, and people are still buying the models and GW is doing more then alright.

Yes, yes, the worst thing ever is a glass cannon faction getting better at damage and worse at resilience. As opposed to more clearly delineating army roles.


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Clearly, there's some bs... like, just put DT back to Wound rolls and it probably makes sense as an overwhelming obsession.


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Half points reavers are clearly stupid (and honestly anyone passing them off so cheap in the interim is THAT fething GUY), but once the painfully RAW tourneys stop admitting that crap, we might get a reasonable assessment

The problem with stupid RAW crap is that unless GW FAQs is pre codex being out or just after the codex coming out, you can't really say the rules or point cost is wrong, if it stays unchanged for months.

It would take GW less then a few hours to write a post in an article on their site or on their facebook page saying that, they got architects and the reavers wrong, and that the FAQ is coming soon.

Well, of course it would, and I'd hope that it will. At least as much as I would hope you'd acknowledge when it happens. The Eldar shouldn't ever be as tough as humanity... They *ought* to cheat their way through by better technology.

Then we end up with something as fun as +4inv blanket save on everything or stacking debuffs to hit from prior editions.

And while I imagine it has to be enjoyable to play with such a rule set. It is not very enjoyable to play against. In the end it comes down to carrying for the faction one plays. It is different for people with multiple armies or who can jump between w40k and AoS. Not very fun if you happen to play something like tau or gsc in 9th, and no matter if it is more or less casual minded store games.

I fear you may now be within the realm of, as we may say "making gak up..." might you care to expand on that?

You keep saying Tau is not fun to play in 9th, but FSE seem to be able to compete in middle ranged competition. Can't comment on GSC.

Ok. Umm. Sisters. feth Mortifiers. Seriously...45 S6 AP2 attacks plus 18 HB shots for 180 points. And then...if it dies in melee on a 4+ is does D3 MW. My god.

And Warriors are nice and durable until you use 15 retributors and 4 cherubs on them. Going second hurt real bad.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ok. Umm. Sisters. feth Mortifiers. Seriously...45 S6 AP2 attacks plus 18 HB shots for 180 points. And then...if it dies in melee on a 4+ is does D3 MW. My god.

Lol. That's the general reaction I've seen to these (and/or Repentia & Arco's) locally.

But seriously? It's as if every force is being intentionally designed to have some sort "My God" unit in it.
If you fight SoB you'll see Mortifiers. If you fight Drukhari you might well run into Liquifiers. Dark Angels & Transhuman. Etc etc etc.

So when we all have broken gak....

Mortifiers aren't even the best unit in the SoB book. They're quite squishy for the points, and don't get most of the special rules (can't use miracle dice on them, no subfaction benefits, etc). They pack in a ton of offense per point, but sisters have plenty of other things that do that too.

Don't get me wrong, they're an arguably competitive choice. It says a lot about how strong SoB are that they aren't an auto-take.

ccs 797783 11107495 wrote:

Lol. That's the general reaction I've seen to these (and/or Repentia & Arco's) locally.

But seriously? It's as if every force is being intentionally designed to have some sort "My God" unit in it.
If you fight SoB you'll see Mortifiers. If you fight Drukhari you might well run into Liquifiers. Dark Angels & Transhuman. Etc etc etc.

So when we all have broken gak....

It has two problems though. Stuff like SW being considered one of the worse types of marines, because they are locked out of being able to take the apothecary upgrade. And the second is the time it takes to update. With a 4+months delay in 9th ed, there is a high chance that, at least in this edition, some armies may not get their broken stuff at all, because the edition will end before that happens. Or they get it 1 month before the edition ends.

Don't get me wrong, they're an arguably competitive choice. It says a lot about how strong SoB are that they aren't an auto-take

Isn't it like eradictors? I would love to have a unit of 3 termintors running around with melta weapons. But marines have better stuff like attack bikes for example.

Drukhari are OP because players are winning tournaments with them since their new codex release.

If this the full logic? Where do these tournament results come from and what statistics are provided.

Considering the Drukhari got a much needed new rule set maybe this has made playing Drukhari more enjoyable and therefore there are more Drukhari armies entered into tournaments? If half the entries are Drukhari it’s more likely they will win.

What next ? Dogs and cats living together, Mass Hysteria !!

 the_scotsman wrote:
No mostly just mentioning it because during the two-year Reign of The Space Marine I recall oft being told "well, whenever a xenos army gets OP everyone just tells the marine players to 'git gud' and they're all defensive and mean about it!"

Gee, if only that wasn't experience of every SM player for three whole editions, especially 6th and 7th when picking Tau or Eldar was pretty much autowin. Oh wait, it was, and the amount of smug GITGUD from people whining their broken to vastly above 8th edition IH level xeno armies sometimes managed to just draw with most minmaxed, broken SM armies with a casual list was insane

Here we are, most competitive players are saying Drukhari are Tier 1 good, we haven't seen any actually solid data but it's pretty clear from batreps and a few test games that there are some pretty wackadoodle combos in there, and all the drukhari players for the most part are saying 'yep, there's some zany stuff in that there book, hope they nerf it like this or that'.

Funny, because all I have seen so far is denial and downplaying of every single thing in the book. Unit of rich kids with gear bought by mom has twice the accuracy of SM veteran with 700 years of combat experience? "Totes balanced, bro". Already pretty strong unit gets massive buffs to entire statline for free? "It was uh, just bad before"! DE HQ now can do 50 attacks and deletes anything it touches? "It's kinda weak, honestly". Such rational, much wow.

Or how about first 6 months of 9th with Harlequins exceeding IH winrates with ease and the exact same people still screeching how OP!11!one! Space Marines are even though they were no longer in top 3 spot and denying Harlequins are in any way good? Because DE denial is just continuation of the whole edition long trend, not something new...

Like at most you've got people salty at the extremely fast knee-jerk hate reaction from the fine folks who defended marines as A-OK for a full year and half now demanding heavy nerfs based on the data from like 3 20-man tournaments, and a couple folks one of whom is extremely notorious for his goofy takes on balance in denial and saying everything is fine.

""Knee jerk"" aka people armed with actual math pointing out vast majority of SM factions outside of IH barely touched 50% and were by every sane definition OK? These ones? Sorry, I didn't know numbers and actual arguments were "hate" and "denial" now

Because funny, what I remember from these debates was hate, yes, but from people screeching how OP every single SM faction was. Yes, even DW, with their ~33% winrate, an argument so comical it made people making it into clowns on the spot...

Where's the 'git gud marine noobs'? where's the 'well marines were OP so I'm glad they get stomped on' that still on the reg gets thrown out at Eldar and Tau?

Have you read this forum? Like, at all, for more than 5 minutes?

I am looking forward to the test game I'm going to be playing against the only other drukhari player in my area with my Deathwatch. I think my TAC list should be in a decent place to take on what he's likely to throw at me, but we'll see.

I like how you fail to realize you just shot your own argument in both feet with demolisher cannon - DW, thanks to inept writers who botched 9th edition book in every possible way, have massive amounts of anti-DE stuff - and yet, you claim they are in merely 'OK' place to take on them. Gee, I wonder, what does this mean for balance for every SM faction that does not have these tailor made countermeasures? And that's pretty much all that needs to be said about 'accuracy' of the opinions above...

Would Drukhari be such an issue on the old gaming board size? Honestly, this is a serious question.

I tend to think a lot of problems with specific factions this edition is due to the board size plus the requirement to pretty much have to take the mid field by turn 2 latest or you will lose on points, most likely taking it turn one.

This could easily be debunked as well, play test games on the old board size, and multi test them. If the justification for the board size change was to fall in line with standard furniture table sizes, then movement on units and range of weapons needs to be adjusted.

Damn I was beginning to wonder if this fairly reasonable converaation between people I could imagine as socially functional adults was even taking place on dakkadakka.

I gotta know what the massive amount of anti-DE stuff in DW is though - we get rr1s to hit in melee vs all Xenos, and we get a stratagem to ignore mods to hit vs eldar. Nothing in the codex actually calls out dark eldar specifically iirc. They certainly dont have as many weapons that are great to target de as admech and tau do.

In a perfect, balanced, fair game I would be going into this matchup going "wow, I am going to effortlessly smash these guys with my marines, this wont be any trouble at all!" I guess.


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 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Would Drukhari be such an issue on the old gaming board size? Honestly, this is a serious question.

I tend to think a lot of problems with specific factions this edition is due to the board size plus the requirement to pretty much have to take the mid field by turn 2 latest or you will lose on points, most likely taking it turn one.

This could easily be debunked as well, play test games on the old board size, and multi test them. If the justification for the board size change was to fall in line with standard furniture table sizes, then movement on units and range of weapons needs to be adjusted.

The board size was in no way related to dining room tables, lol.

Its a factor of GWs standard boxed set box, which is based on GWs full uncut sprue size, which is determined by the injection molding machine.

The hew board certainly doesnt help balance, but it's not based on balance in any way. It's based on GW realizing people were making money off selling mats to play the game on and they were not, and now they can include a partial mat in every limited edition box.

Thats it. Anyone who thinks this decision had anything to do with game balance in any way is utterly deluded. Up until now, people just enjoyed that it penalized long-ranged armies like Tau and Guard.


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Its frankly amazing to me that so far nobody has noticed "Gwarsh, maybe these mobile armies like Slaanesh, Harlequins, and Dark Eldar are at some kind of advantage now that theyve sliced the back end of the board off and you now physically cannot deploy outside thejr threat range?

yukishiro1 wrote:
(can't use miracle dice on them, no subfaction benefits, etc).

Hmm, well, I think I need a word with my opponent on that. MD'd his charge.

I made several mistakes on top of the ctan failing to connect on powers and flubbing all my anti-tank guns, which hurt.

I'd also like to see the extra 12" on that retributor strat go away.

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 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Would Drukhari be such an issue on the old gaming board size? Honestly, this is a serious question.

You still start the same distance apart, so, even with a bigger board your only option would be to completely cede primary and hope there is enough terrain for you, but not for them.