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 harlokin wrote:
Spamming transports is what Drukahri are as an army conceptually.

Last edition it was Venoms.

And that’s both fine and good. The problem is that both the transports and their contents are under costed.

 harlokin wrote:
Spamming transports is what Drukahri are as an army conceptually.

Last edition it was Venoms.

Right, and that's fine, but not every army should be that way, and if you recosted all other transports to be as good as raiders, they would be because you'd be crazy not to take a 50 point rhino.

I just responding to the guy who was like "raiders are fine, every other transport is bad and needs to be buffed to their level."

Raiders are 10-15 points too cheap now. It's not a massive change, but they do need to go up a little so the army doesn't get so many free points worth of stuff.

I can't entirely disagree with that, I'm just pointing out that Drukhari are more dependant on transports that some other factions. If the transports are overcosted (as they were after the Munitorum Manual), you still end up having to take them regardless.

Part of the frustration with Raiders is the reroll from Black Heart making the dark lance less swingy. Those singe reroll traits drive me nuts as is, but work exceptionally well for raiders. Get rid imo.

yukishiro1 wrote:
If you don't think people take rhinos...lol. Rhinos are solid, literally the only reason you don't see them in almost every space marine list is that GW's new, better version of Space Marines can't ride in them. If primaris could be in rhinos you'd see them in almost every list.

So you're admitting they don't take Rhinos.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
If you don't think people take rhinos...lol. Rhinos are solid, literally the only reason you don't see them in almost every space marine list is that GW's new, better version of Space Marines can't ride in them. If primaris could be in rhinos you'd see them in almost every list.

So you're admitting they don't take Rhinos.

Way to not read the rest of the post.

Quasistellar wrote:

Okay I gotta call this out. That strategy would likely get destroyed. First you have to get into position with the impulsor, which on today’s tables isn’t easy since they no longer have fly. Next, if you get even slightly unlucky and don’t kill that raider, then congrats you just gave your opponent 300 points of free kills. Let’s not forget DE can redeploy raiders if they pick the one kabal and find their position unfavorable or end up going second.

This might actually all be okay if the units that DE used to kill the space marine stuff actually cost enough.

Some people are saying horde is the answer as well—how don’t wyches do well into hordes?

I don't think I'd be very concerned about them kicking a boat into reserves. That's 2CP to take the boat off and them dump them next turn 9" away.

DE have so few drops that it is pretty straightforward to put models down in a place where they'll be able to react best.

Another important thing to note is that the Impulsor may not fly, but it moves just as fast as a Raider. Also, if a raider chooses to run it isn't shooting the Lance.

This is what a raider moving 14" from behind obscuring looks like. You can see that only two raiders have LOS to the Impulsor. If you have deployed away from Trueborn there should be two lances and zero liquifiers coming at you. If they have blasters they'll be in range. That is hardly anywhere near enough shooting to take out an Impulsor.



But we'll say the Impulsor is bracketed. This Impulsor moved 7" and the dread is w/i 6" of the Helblasters. Helblasters in the wrong spot, but you get the idea.



You may wonder why it seems like the raiders seem so far back - it is because deploying in terrain costs you lateral movement to either stay in terrain or to dodge other terrain that doesn't give you a straight shot. Those raiders would go this deep without running, but then they would be subject to being shot off if they lose first turn. The reach of the Impulsor and Helblasters would be 14 + 3 + 24.



Yes they can run and use liquifiers, but you should know where the DT boats are before you put down a counter - or at the very least know where they intend to place them. It's up to you to place more conservatively or not.

Obviously things aren't this simple when you start playing.

Dallas GT (180 players with literally the best of the best of US playing there) top 5:

Drukhari
Drukhari + CWE
Drukhari
Drukhari
Drukhari


BALANCED!

P.S. TOP 5 IS ALL DRUKHARI AHAHAHAH

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Dallas GT (180 players with literally the best of the best of US playing there) top 5:

Drukhari
Drukhari + CWE
Drukhari
Drukhari
AdMech


BALANCED!

Nah! We must learn to play

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Dallas GT (180 players with literally the best of the best of US playing there) top 5:

Drukhari
Drukhari + CWE
Drukhari
Drukhari
AdMech


BALANCED!

Undeniably they need changes. The argument is what part(s). At least this seals shut my curiosity as to why they didn't take more top tables last week.

I don't think there really is much argument about what parts are off. Fix the stupid stuff (DT, succubus, flyby strat being used to snipe characters, etc), raise raider points by 10-15, preferably +5 base and +5 for DL.

Take stock for a month, if still too powerful, raise wyches by 1 point, incubi by 2, court by 2, take stock again. The key is to do something fast and then wait for a month to see if it worked and adjust if necessary.

But this is GW, so they'll probably do nothing for 3 months then nerf the faction completely into the ground.

I gotta rectify, Top 5 is ALL DRUKHARI!

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't think there really is much argument about what parts are off. Fix the stupid stuff (DT, succubus, flyby strat being used to snipe characters, etc), raise raider points by 10-15, preferably +5 base and +5 for DL.

Take stock for a month, if still too powerful, raise wyches by 1 point, incubi by 2, court by 2, take stock again. The key is to do something fast and then wait for a month to see if it worked and adjust if necessary.

But this is GW, so they'll probably do nothing for 3 months then nerf the faction completely into the ground.

Well, I think we'll likely see CA and updated GT rules in June...but...who knows with all the delays now, I guess.

Yeah they need nerfs lol

Miss print, delete

The Dallast GT kinda seals the fact that Drukhari is too strong in its current form. It is one thing for a Drukhari list or two to get top 10, but when 60% of top 10(8th place is also Drukhari) has Drukhari something is up.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Dallas GT (180 players with literally the best of the best of US playing there) top 5:

Drukhari
Drukhari + CWE
Drukhari
Drukhari
AdMech


BALANCED!

Undeniably they need changes. The argument is what part(s). At least this seals shut my curiosity as to why they didn't take more top tables last week.

DT, comp edge, Fly-by first and then see after that.

Most DE players honestly expected DT to be removed from 8th to 9th, a lot of us was shocked that it not only stayed but got better.

Raiders need to go up at least 30 points IMO. 10 would barely make a difference

C'mon guys. This is just natural healthy meta. Once all the best players switch to DE, then you can tailor against them for a 50/50 shot, then all will be balanced.

It's pretty obvious this is just a result of literally no one teching for DE--everyone who was going to tech for them just used them instead.

Wait and see!

Quasistellar wrote:
C'mon guys. This is just natural healthy meta. Once all the best players switch to DE, then you can tailor against them for a 50/50 shot, then all will be balanced...

And then once everyone's bought a DE army GW can nerf them again so you have to buy the next army released to stay competitive.

FAQ was released. Looks like DT and the Succubus are here to stay. Only point changes are fixing the misprinted reavers.

So what did marines take? Land speeder storms seem to be popular these days ( no slot W7 model with a HB for 55 points ).

9th was WS - techmarine, 3 relic comtemptors twin volkite, 30 VV, one attack bike. I have no idea how he intended to open transports. Two of those dreadnoughts might get one. He beat a DE with 5 Raiders, 2 Venoms, and a bomber - perhaps a bad list or inexperienced player? Then he beat another DE with 7 Raiders. He lose to Nayden 85 to 61, Lennon (#1) 85 to 55, the head beat a DE with two Ravagers, two Venoms, and two Raiders.

13th BA - DC w/ TH, 12 SG, 10 VV, 6 Eradicators HMR, WW. Again no idea. Those Eradicators can massively overkill kill *a* boat or take two down by half. The only DE he played was Nayden.

18th WS - 10 Assault Ints, 10 BGV, 5 VV, 6 ABs, Placeptors, 3 Eradicators. More capable, but he didn't play any DE.


So it feels like the first guy was able to handle lists that were off the beaten path so far with DE, but once he came into the "normal" lists he struggled. I'll poke more around and see who the DE beat and who beat the DE

Altima wrote:
FAQ was released. Looks like DT and the Succubus are here to stay. Only point changes are fixing the misprinted reavers.

DT will stay... which is bad for everyone but for DE in the first place.

Succubus is from BoR, so we still don't know about that one.

Altima wrote:
FAQ was released. Looks like DT and the Succubus are here to stay. Only point changes are fixing the misprinted reavers.

Yea that was a couple days ago. We're still waiting on Charadon, but that won't resolve larger issues.

 harlokin wrote:
I can't entirely disagree with that, I'm just pointing out that Drukhari are more dependant on transports that some other factions. If the transports are overcosted (as they were after the Munitorum Manual), you still end up having to take them regardless.

That's only if you vastly over nerf transports. I feel like transports should eat a fair nerf and then a little more, rather than 'fair' nerfs to both the transports and the units so that foot DE builds, which don't need nerfs, aren't made unplayable even in casual games.

Could someone provide a link to the Dallas GT results ?

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Could someone provide a link to the Dallas GT results ?

https://web.bestcoastpairings.com/event-placings.php?eventId=bxCjEJaeNu

Well, great job GW. Didnt trim off the worst excesses when you had the chance, now the SM crybabies aren't gonna be satisfied til Raiders and venoms are 150ppm, drazar is a 250pt Lord of War slot, succubi are 130pts, Book of Rust and Psychic Awakening are narrative/open only (but not SM supps obvs those are 100% necessary core content) and eviscerating flyby is capped at 2mw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I can't entirely disagree with that, I'm just pointing out that Drukhari are more dependant on transports that some other factions. If the transports are overcosted (as they were after the Munitorum Manual), you still end up having to take them regardless.

That's only if you vastly over nerf transports. I feel like transports should eat a fair nerf and then a little more, rather than 'fair' nerfs to both the transports and the units so that foot DE builds, which don't need nerfs, aren't made unplayable even in casual games.

This would be as dumb as dropping the cost of Impulsors and Rhinos and Drop Pods down to 40-50ppm and bumping the points of all MEQ up to 25-45. The only Drukhari subfaction intended to be viable on foot (covens) already very much is - they have access to defensive buffs that make their troops quite durable, don't have to pay for ranged weapons they cant use while Advancing up the board, and are appropriately durable for the points. You might see them, actually, if a GW games designer hadn't tragically fallen onto a railroad spike while working on the custom covens rules in late 8th ed and while recovering at hospital came up for the idea for Dark Technomancers.

Nobody's arguing against a 10-15pt bump to the DL raider setup, but upping them by that much and wyches+Incubi by 1ppm would be much preferable to upping DL raiders 25 and leaving wyches/incubi alone because someone might want to try and run incubi across the board.

Nayden lost to Admech - plenty of anti-tank. He did beat Harlies though, which is interesting - too much AT and too close? He also beat 9 attack bikes, 10 MM devs, and 3 flamer cents - again lots of AT with no follow up.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vanella lost to the same Admech player who Nayden lost to - interesting.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nayden lost to Admech - plenty of anti-tank. He did beat Harlies though, which is interesting - too much AT and too close? He also beat 9 attack bikes, 10 MM devs, and 3 flamer cents - again lots of AT with no follow up.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vanella lost to the same Admech player who Nayden lost to - interesting.

So when do we get to start tracking stats for covens/cults/kabals separately so we can pretend the meta is fine and different factions are actually winning GTs?