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This would be as dumb as dropping the cost of Impulsors and Rhinos and Drop Pods down to 40-50ppm and bumping the points of all MEQ up to 25-45. The only Drukhari subfaction intended to be viable on foot (covens) already very much is - they have access to defensive buffs that make their troops quite durable, don't have to pay for ranged weapons they cant use while Advancing up the board, and are appropriately durable for the points. You might see them, actually, if a GW games designer hadn't tragically fallen onto a railroad spike while working on the custom covens rules in late 8th ed and while recovering at hospital came up for the idea for Dark Technomancers.
Nobody's arguing against a 10-15pt bump to the DL raider setup, but upping them by that much and wyches+Incubi by 1ppm would be much preferable to upping DL raiders 25 and leaving wyches/incubi alone because someone might want to try and run incubi across the board.
You realize that comes to the exact same cost for that unit combination, right? If a DL Raider costs +25 points and carries a unit of 10 witches that's a 25 point nerf to a problematic unit combo. If you nerf a raider by 15 points and witches by 1 PPM you get the exact same nerf but you hurt anybody who wants to use witches on foot for no reason.
Daedalus81 wrote: Nayden lost to Admech - plenty of anti-tank. He did beat Harlies though, which is interesting - too much AT and too close? He also beat 9 attack bikes, 10 MMdevs, and 3 flamer cents - again lots of AT with no follow up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Vanella lost to the same Admech player who Nayden lost to - interesting.
The thing about Drukhari is that if you allow them to get too close you have lost the game(this goes especially with Wyches). My guess is that Ad Mech was able to shoot down raiders quickly enough to keep the enemy at bay whereas Harlequins tend to have a short range on fusion pistol which results in them being dead after popping the raiders up close and personal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/02 22:31:32
I suspect there's going to be nothing from GW for 6 months and then yeah, significant across the board points nerfs in say a December Chapter Approved.
In terms of points, I think things should try to be appropriate in combination but still balanced on the basis of what they are. I feel 110 point raiders is a bit kneejerk even if others may disagree.
I expect you'll see something like:
Drazar->up 15.
Succubus->up 15.
Liquifiers->up 5. (This might be an ugly way of fixing DT - but realistically, this is the only problem combo, and you are probably not bothering to take them without it.)
Wyches->up 1. (Not sure its necessary in the context of everything else, but sure, why not.)
Incubi->up 2.
Raider->up 10.
Sslyth/Ghuls might go up 2 each.
Hellions might get nerfed just because, but maybe they aren't actually all that.
So all in all for comparison the winning list - and I think most DE forces we see - would be up 190 points.
I cannot imagine we don't see some kind of IH-style nerf after a few more events like this.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand across the board point nerfs next CA, after they've dropped back down to 52% wr and 3% wr just to make sure they crater down to a solid 40% to set up the cycle of manufactured discontent
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I have a sneaking suspicion that we'll all be having the same conversations around Ad-Mech in the not-too-distant future. They're already pretty capable.
And maybe that's ok?
I feel there's a lot of time and energy wasted on heated discussion around 'problems' in the competitive meta whenever the new hotness is released or discovered, and the apple cart is upset. But it's really always been that way. There are moments certainly when there are several very viable armies out there and we have a really diverse spread of lists winning events, but those are cyclical also, and are probably always going to be in the current system.
I think the 'heavy-hitter' players continue to win events, in part because they've accepted this, and play to it. They form teams, can pool models, and are in a position to adopt/adapt to a game that is constantly in flux, and simply won't be balanced across armies.
(I'm not saying these aren't also very skilled players, with exceptional insight into the meta and how it's likely to change).
No amount of frustration and outrage from us, over a particular army or unit, is going to change the system. This just is competitive 40K.
I think for me (I'm in no position to chase the meta), I'll content myself with rocking up to a event with an army I enjoy, and compete against myself, by seeing how well I can do with it despite the current meta. Other paths likely lead to madness. I fully accept that isn't a solution for everyone though.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/02 23:41:00
The problem is that no other 9th book has done what Drukhari has done.
Death Guard, Necrons, Marines, all SM supplements. No 9th book came so OP. Actually, most SM factions lost a ton of winrate % after the codex with the exception of DA that were so bad at least they became playable.
We should stop pretending drukhari are just normal. We SHOULD hope Admech is not like drukhari because that would mean a serious scale creep. Lets expect Admech to be more inline with Deathguard, necrons and marines.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: The problem is that no other 9th book has done what Drukhari has done.
Death Guard, Necrons, Marines, all SM supplements. No 9th book came so OP. Actually, most SM factions lost a ton of winrate % after the codex with the exception of DA that were so bad at least they became playable.
We should stop pretending drukhari are just normal. We SHOULD hope Admech is not like drukhari because that would mean a serious scale creep. Lets expect Admech to be more inline with Deathguard, necrons and marines.
I totally hear you.
In terms of the current meta, Drukhari aren't normal. You can't look at results like this weekends event, and their win-rates over the last few weeks and argue that with a straight face - I continue to love them as an army, but I absolutely wish they weren't the dominant force that they are right now.
Unfortunately it's entirely normal for something to come along and do this to the meta at regular intervals. The degree's to which something dominates vary, definitely, but it's the reality however much I may personally wish things were different.
I'm just curious as to how discussions might change for the better, if we just accepted that's how the game we all enjoy works when played in a competitive environment?
I don't particularly like it, but it is what it is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 00:02:50
StrayIight wrote: I have a sneaking suspicion that we'll all be having the same conversations around Ad-Mech in the not-too-distant future. They're already pretty capable.
And maybe that's ok?
I feel there's a lot of time and energy wasted on heated discussion around 'problems' in the competitive meta whenever the new hotness is released or discovered, and the apple cart is upset. But it's really always been that way.
There are moments certainly when there are several very viable armies out there and we have a really diverse spread of lists winning events, but those are cyclical also, and are probably always going to be in the current system.
I think the 'heavy-hitter' players continue to win events, in part because they've accepted this, and play to it. They form teams, can pool models, and are in a position to adopt/adapt to a game that is constantly in flux, and simply won't be balanced across armies.
(I'm not saying these aren't also very skilled players, with exceptional insight into the meta and how it's likely to change).
No amount of frustration and outrage from us, over a particular army or unit, is going to change the system. This just is competitive 40K.
I think for me (I'm in no position to chase the meta), I'll content myself with rocking up to a event with an army I enjoy, and compete against myself, by seeing how well I can do with it despite the current meta. Other paths likely lead to madness.
I fully accept that isn't a solution for everyone though.
I recently played against Ademch with a couple of the flyers, the dogs with W3 still, sterilyzors, magera, and 4 armigers. It was pretty brutal, but I was doing pretty well until I mis-deployed my deepstrikers.
I expect Admech to catch a bunch of nerfs on some things especially with the weapons going to what they showed, buuuut with DE like this - who knows?
Tyel wrote: I suspect there's going to be nothing from GW for 6 months and then yeah, significant across the board points nerfs in say a December Chapter Approved.
In terms of points, I think things should try to be appropriate in combination but still balanced on the basis of what they are. I feel 110 point raiders is a bit kneejerk even if others may disagree.
I expect you'll see something like:
Drazar->up 15.
Succubus->up 15.
Liquifiers->up 5. (This might be an ugly way of fixing DT - but realistically, this is the only problem combo, and you are probably not bothering to take them without it.)
Wyches->up 1. (Not sure its necessary in the context of everything else, but sure, why not.)
Incubi->up 2.
Raider->up 10.
Sslyth/Ghuls might go up 2 each.
Hellions might get nerfed just because, but maybe they aren't actually all that.
So all in all for comparison the winning list - and I think most DE forces we see - would be up 190 points.
Several of the top competitive players, said that the army feels like it's packing an extra 150-200 points right now, in addition to the broken interactions.
That being said, I expect they will get fixed in the summer MFM release, likely digitally. They've done that a few times with AoS armies that needed points adjustments, but it was after the GHB went to the printers.
Galas wrote: The problem is that no other 9th book has done what Drukhari has done.
Death Guard, Necrons, Marines, all SM supplements. No 9th book came so OP. Actually, most SM factions lost a ton of winrate % after the codex with the exception of DA that were so bad at least they became playable.
We should stop pretending drukhari are just normal. We SHOULD hope Admech is not like drukhari because that would mean a serious scale creep. Lets expect Admech to be more inline with Deathguard, necrons and marines.
I still feel like some of this is a little premature. How many people were testing their list before the DE book was out? Usually it isn't easy to change a list and get familiar with it before a big tournament.
Note this isn't a git gud comment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: So when do we get to start tracking stats for covens/cults/kabals separately so we can pretend the meta is fine and different factions are actually winning GTs?
I don't want to see DE nerfed more than necessary and I still feel like there's more to consider.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So this Admech guy.
He beat...
Nayden - 70 to 53
Nanavati - 80 to 65
Vanella - 83 to 62
Coulter - 92 to 16
These are all DE players.
He lost to Lennon 47 to 53 - so he lost just barely.
This is the list. It has - transports, mobile AT, OOLOS shooting, good melee. Nothing is overdone.
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Stygies VIII
+ Agents of the Imperium +
Inquisitor [4 PL, 75pts, -1CP]: 1) Terrify, 6) Castigation, Blade of the Ordo, Combi-melta, Malleus - Psychic Mastery, Ordo Malleus, Power sword, Psyker, Stratagem: Arbiter of the Emperor's Will
+ HQ +
Tech-Priest Dominus [5 PL, 80pts]: Macrostubber, Volkite Blaster, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Engine War): Divinations of the Magos
It’s fun seeing the various reactions, “the book is not OP” crowd is having with each new weekend of information. You have many simply into the woodwork (which is to be expected). You have some subtly change their stance/ argument over time, and a few who are still willing to stick to their guns.
If it makes anyone feel better the army’s win rate in this tournament is 1% less than it was last week, so clearly the jet bike nerf did something (or the army is just facing more mirrors now that more people are playing it).
As I said earlier, around 70% win rate armies don’t usually fall off, especially when it is tournaments left and right. Drukhari is an abnormality that is bad for the health of the game, simple as that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 00:34:28
Salt donkey wrote: If it makes anyone feel better the army’s win rate in this tournament is 1% less than it was last week, so clearly the jet bike nerf did something (or the army is just facing more mirrors now that more people are playing it).
Right, so, the representation of DE in the top might be more that really good players took them instead of their usual army. DE didn't suddenly start winning more games this tournament.
You might like to paint difficult and nuanced topics as people changing their stance or whatever, but it's not that simple. Never will be.
DE was 10% of the entrants, so a fair bit more showed up here.
Other stats:
17 Drukhari players, 14 Death Guard, 12 Necrons, 11 Dark Angels, 10 White Scars, 9 Blood Angles, 7 Harliquin, 6 Custodes, 3 Ad Mec, 2 Aeldari and more that I didn't count.
Drukari recorded 131 games with 42 non wins for a win rate of 68% including mirror matches ( including two games that were 0 point ties? )
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/05/03 00:49:07
Those top 4 are obviously big name players and have taken what they feel is the best army ATM.
I haven't broke down any of the lists etc, but outside of "points boost" is there a common denominator?
I'm not a Drukhari player (even though I've had a wych army in boxes for more years than I'd like to admit), but I truly hope that any changes are the absolute minimum necessary. Itz refreshing to see something dangerous that is Xenos.
OFCDE crushed that DG player when there is no terrain to hide behind other than the center of the table, no cover saves, no -2" to charges, just 12" Obscuring both directions that you can hide your entire army behind. You have 6 Raiders and 20 Hellions? NP when no he can't shoot you!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 05:03:32
Audustum wrote: So the AdMech was actually the other player in the finals. He just fell to 6th on battlepoints despite being 7-1 and in the final round.
Just something people seem to not know.
I really like his list. There's no hiding from those tanks, and with several of them shooting the weapon profile looks quite capable of chewing up a raider or two a turn.
I don't know if it was intended in part or in whole as a DE counter (probably not the latter as it reads like a really well balanced TAC list), but it was clearly quite effective.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 05:54:17
bullyboy wrote: Those top 4 are obviously big name players and have taken what they feel is the best army ATM.
I haven't broke down any of the lists etc, but outside of "points boost" is there a common denominator?
I'm not a Drukhari player (even though I've had a wych army in boxes for more years than I'd like to admit), but I truly hope that any changes are the absolute minimum necessary. Itz refreshing to see something dangerous that is Xenos.
What you say in point 1 is all technically correct, but worded in such a way that implies the problem is better than it is. For example, it’s pretty clear John Lennon the winner or the event has gone on record of saying he doesn’t like Eldar in general and vastly prefers white scars over drukhari. He backed this up by playing white scars since the 2.0 marine dex came out, so him switching to (and winning with) drukhari, implies the faction isn’t just a little better than the next best army (as well as the mountain of other evidence).
Your next statement is pure opinion. I could say it was refreshing seeing all those riptides with wratitknights dominate 7th edition or facing triptide during 8th, but I have a feeling most people would disagree with that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 06:41:39
So when do we get to start tracking stats for covens/cults/kabals separately so we can pretend the meta is fine and different factions are actually winning GTs?
Well the difference is that different marines are actually played at events. When with something like DE you very well know what the cabal is going to be for the patrol with the liquifire section. That is a wee bit different from one guy playing a White Scar list and making it to top 16, and another player Space Wolves.
Also in non professional sports, if one one school took top 5 places, all the participants would get tested within hours of the event, because it is not suppose to happen. Not in an enviroment where everyone tries to give their best.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/03 07:13:26
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
I`ll must say i`m impressed by John Lenon, he kind of submarined all event winning the games with low points, so he played only the Admech player and dodged most of the list and people who could have taken him out.
Still the main issue with the Drukhari seem that they look designed to play this mission set, even if you manage to kill them turn 4-5 they are to ahead and there is no comeback point mechanic. That could have been said and for prev DE, but the new one can also trade units much better, so it looks like there is no counterplay in some of the games.
I don`t know how GW can escape the hole they dig themself this time, if the faction pts became to expensive it will be auto-loss, if they are decent its auto-win.
Probably only changes to mission format could fix it, which if it happen will be better for the game in the long run.
DT raiders should also go away, having transport do casually min 5 damage is absurd and it also remove the main weakness of the faction anti-tank weapons, since it wounds T7 on 2s and T8 on 3s. I don`t really care about liquifier wracks, because there are units in other factions that are much more point efficient than them.
I`m skeptical that GW know how to design things, since the answers for everything is just more damage, there is huge possibility that next factions will have so much more damage and will simply blow DE transports and DE lost their survivability with the wrack changes.
What you say in point 1 is all technically correct, but worded in such a way that implies the problem is better than it is. For example, it’s pretty clear John Lennon the winner or the event has gone on record of saying he doesn’t like Eldar in general and vastly prefers white scars over drukhari. He backed this up by playing white scars since the 2.0 marine dex came out, so him switching to (and winning with) drukhari, implies the faction isn’t just a little better than the next best army (as well as the mountain of other evidence).
In a podcast/stream(I don't remember which) John Lennon actually said that the reason he brought a Drukhari list was that it was the only way for him to actually win. He apparently has played quite a few games against Drukhari with his White Scars and said that he doesn't come close to beating them with that faction.
StrayIight wrote: I have a sneaking suspicion that we'll all be having the same conversations around Ad-Mech in the not-too-distant future. They're already pretty capable.
And maybe that's ok?
I feel there's a lot of time and energy wasted on heated discussion around 'problems' in the competitive meta whenever the new hotness is released or discovered, and the apple cart is upset. But it's really always been that way.
There are moments certainly when there are several very viable armies out there and we have a really diverse spread of lists winning events, but those are cyclical also, and are probably always going to be in the current system.
I think the 'heavy-hitter' players continue to win events, in part because they've accepted this, and play to it. They form teams, can pool models, and are in a position to adopt/adapt to a game that is constantly in flux, and simply won't be balanced across armies.
(I'm not saying these aren't also very skilled players, with exceptional insight into the meta and how it's likely to change).
No amount of frustration and outrage from us, over a particular army or unit, is going to change the system. This just is competitive 40K.
I think for me (I'm in no position to chase the meta), I'll content myself with rocking up to a event with an army I enjoy, and compete against myself, by seeing how well I can do with it despite the current meta. Other paths likely lead to madness.
I fully accept that isn't a solution for everyone though.
i don't think that at this stage it's acceptable what GW does with it's "not-DLC-DLC policy" and obvious lack of general oversight in regards to rulessources for a quick buck.
And the bad part is, you can keep out of the scene and still get the proverbial gak kicked out of you via a FAQ, CA, or just simply unbalanced ruleset.
i'd prefer if we NOT go back to a 6/7th ed arms race, that forces local metas to basically ban everything and their proverbial mother in order to facilitate a casual game or hand out pts handicaps because some dexes are more equal and play better torwards the mission set.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I know this is not going to happen anywhere but I guess a TOcould experiment with point changes (no law would be broken and no one would be sent to jail I mean ^^) for the raiders, DT liquefiers, succubus, drazhar, incubi, and perhaps hellions.
At this point, I think many Druk players would welcome entering an RTT with a handicap. If they still win it would mean a lot more about their skill than if they win the RTT with current undercosted units.
Just banning book of rust would not be enough I think, but perhaps ban of the book of rust + upping cost of raiders only would be enough ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 07:58:18
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
Bosskelot wrote: I, for one, welcome our new Drukhari overlords.
yeah, but that is because SoB are DE without skimmer transports
At this point, I think many Druk players would welcome entering an RTT with a handicap.
And many wouldn't, plus there would be no real way to enforce it outside of tournaments.
I wonder how the ad mecha book is going to be. Maybe the up to DG/DA books were writen with more of a upgaded 8th ed mind set, and this books coming out now are the real 9th ed deal. 8th was like that. DG and GK felt a bit like books not for 8th edition, and then CWE stuff came out and we were on a power race roll for the rest of the edition.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
i don't think that at this stage it's acceptable what GW does with it's "not-DLC-DLC policy" and obvious lack of general oversight in regards to rulessources for a quick buck. And the bad part is, you can keep out of the scene and still get the proverbial gak kicked out of you via a FAQ, CA, or just simply unbalanced ruleset. i'd prefer if we NOT go back to a 6/7th ed arms race, that forces local metas to basically ban everything and their proverbial mother in order to facilitate a casual game or hand out pts handicaps because some dexes are more equal and play better torwards the mission set.
I would also prefer things were different, I honestly would. I largely agree with what you're saying.
It isn't different though. I think this is where we are. However much we all complain on here, however bad the meta might look, GW is still making money hand over fist - over here, you can't buy most of the DE model range and haven't been able to since the codex released.
The community could cause things to change maybe two ways realistically?
1) Balance everything themselves, outside of whatever GW publishes. Which would require an awful lot of traction to gain enough adoptees. 2) Exert massive pressure on GW to do better, and fix things at their end.
I don't think, for all our moaning about the issues, we really care enough to do either though.
I think I'm at a point where I'm settling on a third option, where I adapt to the reality of the whole thing, stop worrying about what I can't change, and just get whatever enjoyment I can out of my hobby
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 09:16:43
Who cares about Space Marine players and their bazillion options and bazillion codexes. Why bother even playing 40k, seems like people want their entire army intact by the end of the game without suffering a single casualty. A Succubus is no harder to kill anymore than lighting up a Solitaire is.
i don't think that at this stage it's acceptable what GW does with it's "not-DLC-DLC policy" and obvious lack of general oversight in regards to rulessources for a quick buck.
And the bad part is, you can keep out of the scene and still get the proverbial gak kicked out of you via a FAQ, CA, or just simply unbalanced ruleset.
i'd prefer if we NOT go back to a 6/7th ed arms race, that forces local metas to basically ban everything and their proverbial mother in order to facilitate a casual game or hand out pts handicaps because some dexes are more equal and play better torwards the mission set.
I would also prefer things were different, I honestly would. I largely agree with what you're saying.
It isn't different though. I think this is where we are. However much we all complain on here, however bad the meta might look, GW is still making money hand over fist - over here, you can't buy most of the DE model range and haven't been able to since the codex released.
The community could cause things to change maybe two ways realistically?
1) Balance everything themselves, outside of whatever GW publishes. Which would require an awful lot of traction to gain enough adoptees.
2) Exert massive pressure on GW to do better, and fix things at their end.
I don't think, for all our moaning about the issues, we really care enough to do either though.
I think I'm at a point where I'm settling on a third option, where I adapt to the reality of the whole thing, stop worrying about what I can't change, and just get whatever enjoyment I can out of my hobby
Which is the core issue, we like to complain, often rightfully so, but for everyone that basically decided enough is enough, is weighed up via a whale and the hordes of those just ignoring the issue respectively those that have no TG alternative locally available and gw has still this closed ecosystem and mass. Further GW seems to employ ever more whalehunting tactics, like FOMO.
Considering that basically eveytime balance gets worse we are mostly forced into Nr.1. locally, on occaision GW feths up enough that nr 2 happens...
But that is rarely happening, mostly the community seems to just swallow the nonsense, and isn't the core issue which stems from GW not even seemingly having an editor that has GENERAL oversight, how else could infinite attacks sneak by... No Gw is more concerned to throw out rules ever more piecemeal in order to monetise and increse recurring spending.
And yes option 3 is probably the healthiest, but also can mean that players just resign.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 09:43:47
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Elfric wrote: Who cares about Space Marine players and their bazillion options and bazillion codexes. Why bother even playing 40k, seems like people want their entire army intact by the end of the game without suffering a single casualty. A Succubus is no harder to kill anymore than lighting up a Solitaire is.
Yes, because all those GSC, IG, knights, GK, Chaos SM etc players do not have problems with armies like DE or Harlequins. After the liquifier, succubus charge turn, there is often not much left around to kill anything with.
Don't turn the argument in to, it is just White Scar players, that have a problem with the DE power right now.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
