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Elfric wrote: Who cares about Space Marine players and their bazillion options and bazillion codexes. Why bother even playing 40k, seems like people want their entire army intact by the end of the game without suffering a single casualty. A Succubus is no harder to kill anymore than lighting up a Solitaire is.
Yes, because all those GSC, IG, knights, GK, Chaos SM etc players do not have problems with armies like DE or Harlequins. After the liquifier, succubus charge turn, there is often not much left around to kill anything with.
Don't turn the argument in to, it is just White Scar players, that have a problem with the DE power right now.
The real question is why are you so obsessed with harlequins ?
Harlequins are proven to not perform in big tournaments, where generally the player quality is higher.
Even stats prove it, if you check 40k stats and select only Deathguard and Dark Angels, harlequins are super balanced at 50% WR.
Its interesting to see that their WR improve with the Drukhari codex, but that is probably because of the increase of vehicles and i have the feeling that guy Colin McDade is one of the main reason for that.
And Harlequin + CWE soup is even less effective than pure halrequins, but it give you option to play vs certain armies like Admech, DG, DA and custodes, who have alot of anti-harl tech.
Elfric wrote: Who cares about Space Marine players and their bazillion options and bazillion codexes. Why bother even playing 40k, seems like people want their entire army intact by the end of the game without suffering a single casualty. A Succubus is no harder to kill anymore than lighting up a Solitaire is.
It does sound like you don't play Warhammer at all and are misrepresenting the situation. I play quite a few armies and of all the armies I own Death Guard is the only one that has managed to give Drukhari some challenge. The problem is not Space Marines having issues with Drukhari, but that every faction is having problem with Drukhari.
It is also quite disingenuous to imply that you just need to kill the Succubus. The Succubus is going to be in a transport and most likely dictate her assault and pay back her points easily before you ever get a chance to kill her. Then when you are finally done spending your forces on killing her the rest of the Drukhari army swoops in and finishes the job. Drukhari has a models that punch way above their weight class.
Elfric wrote: Who cares about Space Marine players and their bazillion options and bazillion codexes. Why bother even playing 40k, seems like people want their entire army intact by the end of the game without suffering a single casualty. A Succubus is no harder to kill anymore than lighting up a Solitaire is.
It does sound like you don't play Warhammer at all and are misrepresenting the situation. I play quite a few armies and of all the armies I own Death Guard is the only one that has managed to give Drukhari some challenge. The problem is not Space Marines having issues with Drukhari, but that every faction is having problem with Drukhari.
It is also quite disingenuous to imply that you just need to kill the Succubus. The Succubus is going to be in a transport and most likely dictate her assault and pay back her points easily before you ever get a chance to kill her. Then when you are finally done spending your forces on killing her the rest of the Drukhari army swoops in and finishes the job. Drukhari has a models that punch way above their weight class.
Yeah, the main thing with the succubus is that her defenses actually tend to be just as good as most characters at the end of the day, because when people target characters they're rarely flinging mass S3 Ap- D1 fire at them, theyre going for a 1hko with a melta or something they've jumped over your line, or theyve cut away the units you had within 3" and typically that means a lascannon gets lobbed the character's way. She's got a 4++ invuln. When people target characters, those characters are typically taking whatever their invuln save is. I can count on a very small number of fingers the times that (for example) my deathwatch terminator captain gets to take his 2+ armor save.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 11:11:41
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
The real question is why are you so obsessed with harlequins ?
Harlequins are proven to not perform in big tournaments, where generally the player quality is higher.
Even stats prove it, if you check 40k stats and select only Deathguard and Dark Angels, harlequins are super balanced at 50% WR.
Its interesting to see that their WR improve with the Drukhari codex, but that is probably because of the increase of vehicles and i have the feeling that guy Colin McDade is one of the main reason for that.
And Harlequin + CWE soup is even less effective than pure halrequins, but it give you option to play vs certain armies like Admech, DG, DA and custodes, who have alot of anti-harl tech.
I don't know having a 60%+ win rate since start of 9th, and being clearly on a tier higher then every other army which was considered good in 9th, seems like a good thing to focus on. And DE have a higher then harlis win rate.
I don't get your parent about them not scoring high in events, the CWE armies that did well in tournaments all across the wrold in 9th were runing soup lists with harlis. Saying that it is less efficient when they are placing in top 8s and top 4s seems a strange thing to say.
also even if I was somehow wrong about harlis. What does that change about the fact that an army, which has a 70%+ win rate, probably is not fun to play against with not just white scars. Right, because the tournament in dallas didn't show IG or GSC hard countering DE.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/03 11:20:31
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
OFCDE crushed that DG player when there is no terrain to hide behind other than the center of the table, no cover saves, no -2" to charges, just 12" Obscuring both directions that you can hide your entire army behind. You have 6 Raiders and 20 Hellions? NP when no he can't shoot you!
Ugg I hate those ridiculous L blocks. They could have at least space them out. Good grief. This is the definition of too much terrain AND too little.
Audustum wrote: So the AdMech was actually the other player in the finals. He just fell to 6th on battlepoints despite being 7-1 and in the final round.
Just something people seem to not know.
I really like his list. There's no hiding from those tanks, and with several of them shooting the weapon profile looks quite capable of chewing up a raider or two a turn.
I don't know if it was intended in part or in whole as a DE counter (probably not the latter as it reads like a really well balanced TAC list), but it was clearly quite effective.
Great against marines, people who take servitors / cryptos for banners, clearing drop points, etc.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/03 11:38:00
The real question is why are you so obsessed with harlequins ?
Harlequins are proven to not perform in big tournaments, where generally the player quality is higher.
Even stats prove it, if you check 40k stats and select only Deathguard and Dark Angels, harlequins are super balanced at 50% WR.
Its interesting to see that their WR improve with the Drukhari codex, but that is probably because of the increase of vehicles and i have the feeling that guy Colin McDade is one of the main reason for that.
And Harlequin + CWE soup is even less effective than pure halrequins, but it give you option to play vs certain armies like Admech, DG, DA and custodes, who have alot of anti-harl tech.
I don't know having a 60%+ win rate since start of 9th, and being clearly on a tier higher then every other army which was considered good in 9th, seems like a good thing to focus on. And DE have a higher then harlis win rate.
I don't get your parent about them not scoring high in events, the CWE armies that did well in tournaments all across the wrold in 9th were runing soup lists with harlis. Saying that it is less efficient when they are placing in top 8s and top 4s seems a strange thing to say.
also even if I was somehow wrong about harlis. What does that change about the fact that an army, which has a 70%+ win rate, probably is not fun to play against with not just white scars. Right, because the tournament in dallas didn't show IG or GSC hard countering DE.
Are you really trying to use data one year old?
Why are you grouping drukhari with harlequins WR ?
Why are you crying about GK vs harlequins matchup, when this year they have played only 5 times and GK have won 3 of the games ?
Alot of questions that you will probably not answer.
It`s strange that you consider Harl+CWE stronger than chaos/imp soup, that is winning events not just placing in top 8.
Clap, top 8 from 20 man even, broken faction.
Elfric wrote: Who cares about Space Marine players and their bazillion options and bazillion codexes. Why bother even playing 40k, seems like people want their entire army intact by the end of the game without suffering a single casualty. A Succubus is no harder to kill anymore than lighting up a Solitaire is.
It does sound like you don't play Warhammer at all and are misrepresenting the situation. I play quite a few armies and of all the armies I own Death Guard is the only one that has managed to give Drukhari some challenge. The problem is not Space Marines having issues with Drukhari, but that every faction is having problem with Drukhari.
It is also quite disingenuous to imply that you just need to kill the Succubus. The Succubus is going to be in a transport and most likely dictate her assault and pay back her points easily before you ever get a chance to kill her. Then when you are finally done spending your forces on killing her the rest of the Drukhari army swoops in and finishes the job. Drukhari has a models that punch way above their weight class.
Yeah, the main thing with the succubus is that her defenses actually tend to be just as good as most characters at the end of the day, because when people target characters they're rarely flinging mass S3 Ap- D1 fire at them, theyre going for a 1hko with a melta or something they've jumped over your line, or theyve cut away the units you had within 3" and typically that means a lascannon gets lobbed the character's way. She's got a 4++ invuln. When people target characters, those characters are typically taking whatever their invuln save is. I can count on a very small number of fingers the times that (for example) my deathwatch terminator captain gets to take his 2+ armor save.
Really, some durabillity ? Next game play your character only with 4++ and never use the 2+ save, T4 and 2+ is huge difference in survilabillity.
My troupe master with 4++ is made from paper and just die most of the times by random 0 AP attacks, if he is not in shadowseer aura.
Lastcannons and meltas dont kill T3 4++ characters, as efficient as bolters, lastguns,
It`s so bad that i dont do heroic interventions any more, because some random guy can kill my character before he can swing and the aura is more important than making 5-6 attacks with regular weapon.
I`ll assume the lady will die easily in most cases, if there were not the extra rules.
The broken combo is the master socumbus + fight first, that in many cases give the socumbus chance to hit and retreat before she got killed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 12:20:14
The problem with the Succubus is that probably nothing is left to swing back so even that incidental damage is not showing up. Additionally, they have so much CP that rerolling a 4++ is nothing to their overall pool.
addnid wrote: Losing a 60 point character after blending 150 points is a great trade, and the succubus would be played even if it had no invul at all.
Oh yeah, with the dumb 36 attack razorflails and possibly even with a triptch whip builds most certainly. The only issue with triptch whip setups that indisposes her in comparison to other bomb character builds is her complete inability to scratch vehicles, but that's a minor inconvenience in the current meta where it's easy to find 100+ points of marines for her to one-shot.
If you could save 50 points on a smash captain and in exchange for that give up his ability to harm one particular category of unit, you'd probably do that.
Heck, people have done that - they've swapped from smashman builds bieng primarily thunderhammer based to being primarily teeth of terra based.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 13:31:26
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Elfric wrote: Who cares about Space Marine players and their bazillion options and bazillion codexes. Why bother even playing 40k, seems like people want their entire army intact by the end of the game without suffering a single casualty. A Succubus is no harder to kill anymore than lighting up a Solitaire is.
It does sound like you don't play Warhammer at all and are misrepresenting the situation. I play quite a few armies and of all the armies I own Death Guard is the only one that has managed to give Drukhari some challenge. The problem is not Space Marines having issues with Drukhari, but that every faction is having problem with Drukhari.
It is also quite disingenuous to imply that you just need to kill the Succubus. The Succubus is going to be in a transport and most likely dictate her assault and pay back her points easily before you ever get a chance to kill her. Then when you are finally done spending your forces on killing her the rest of the Drukhari army swoops in and finishes the job. Drukhari has a models that punch way above their weight class.
Yeah, the main thing with the succubus is that her defenses actually tend to be just as good as most characters at the end of the day, because when people target characters they're rarely flinging mass S3 Ap- D1 fire at them, theyre going for a 1hko with a melta or something they've jumped over your line, or theyve cut away the units you had within 3" and typically that means a lascannon gets lobbed the character's way. She's got a 4++ invuln. When people target characters, those characters are typically taking whatever their invuln save is. I can count on a very small number of fingers the times that (for example) my deathwatch terminator captain gets to take his 2+ armor save.
Toughness is a useless statistic in 8/9th because it lost scaling - it scales by multiplication instead of linear but the value of the stat never got trended down in points value for higher T and strength values stayed the same. It has literally never been a better time to be T5 or T3. As is typical with all the -AP proliferation - the only thing that matters is an invune. Funny how...that armies that do best are the armies that have a base invune on almost all of their models. It is actually really pathetic.
Ofc there is more too it. The hyper mobility you get from armies like quins and DE is also essentially free. You get a heavy discount on your models for being t3 1W but end up having very similar durability to something like a primaris marine who essentially is paying most of their value for defensive ability that can be completely ignored. The mobility is also a defensive statistic in reality too because being locked in melee and hitting first are very powerful in this game too.
Game has a lot of fundamental issues too. There is too much free movement going on. Advance and charge + a possible 12" charge and a 3" disembark from a vehical - you've trippled your movement statistic basically. Disembarking a vehicle should give you a movement penalty...not a bonus...and now...Both DE and Quinns can keep you locked in melee so you can't hit back...
Don't even get me started on open topped vehicals...A bunker that move quickly...yet costs less typically because of the -1 T that most of these vehicles get over say something like...a vyper. Also...totally free. You pay 0 for the ability to shoot a unit that can not take damage before you grind through a series of wounds protected by an invune...with high str weapons basically treating the vehicle like it's t7 or 8 (no real disadvantage). Something like an impulsor - which is actually pretty good for a transport in this game for some reason costs 50% more?
It is the same old gak and I am tired of it. The real issue with DE is raiders should cost like 120...not 80.
The real issue with Quinns is their starweaver should cost 100...not 80.
That is a great place to start...nerf some relics too. And as always...stop giving away so much free power with army traits. Problem is that is is entirely their intention. To keep upping the power level of the game. Okay...fine...that is what they do...THEN WHY NERF ANYTHING? Why nerf erradicatros or agressors or impulsors if you are just gonna keep making the next army OP? It makes no sense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 14:00:29
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Just charge properly for a raider. 100 points min...Probably more like 120 I think.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I think it depends on if people do try to counter-meta it. Unfortunately "competitive 40k" - or "top tier 40k" often consists of riding whatever's the most obviously broken/undercosted at the time rather than trying to stand up as "faction champion come rain or shine". This tends to exacerbate the impact of imbalance.
I.E. I don't think we'll see 40k's best minds try and work out how to counter DE with factions X, Y and Z. You'll just see a lot of them acquire DE armies of their own to play with for 6 months, then put back into storage/ebay as whim dictates.
addnid wrote: Losing a 60 point character after blending 150 points is a great trade, and the succubus would be played even if it had no invul at all.
Oh yeah, with the dumb 36 attack razorflails and possibly even with a triptch whip builds most certainly. The only issue with triptch whip setups that indisposes her in comparison to other bomb character builds is her complete inability to scratch vehicles, but that's a minor inconvenience in the current meta where it's easy to find 100+ points of marines for her to one-shot.
If you could save 50 points on a smash captain and in exchange for that give up his ability to harm one particular category of unit, you'd probably do that.
Heck, people have done that - they've swapped from smashman builds bieng primarily thunderhammer based to being primarily teeth of terra based.
So tag the Triptych Whip version with a dreadnought, tank or whatever to bounce off of.
They just need to fix the obviously broken stuff (36 attack Succubus, DT, but the rule, not the units/weapons it affects ), then see how that shakes out. If they're still to good, bump some points (slightly) in the next CA. Worst case scenario? You have to build for DE as well as elite factions for a while and DE win more games. The sky isn't falling.
It looks like GW is saying what most of us were claiming a couple weeks ago. Just wait for Admech, Orks, Sisters... Books that are going to keep Drukhari at bay. I’d hope all codexes were released at the same time, but that’s not happening anytime soon, so this unbalancing issues are going to be common.
Dark Eldar are perfect to counter Power Armor in 9th, and reading to that comment, that’s probably intended.
addnid wrote: Losing a 60 point character after blending 150 points is a great trade, and the succubus would be played even if it had no invul at all.
Oh yeah, with the dumb 36 attack razorflails and possibly even with a triptch whip builds most certainly. The only issue with triptch whip setups that indisposes her in comparison to other bomb character builds is her complete inability to scratch vehicles, but that's a minor inconvenience in the current meta where it's easy to find 100+ points of marines for her to one-shot.
If you could save 50 points on a smash captain and in exchange for that give up his ability to harm one particular category of unit, you'd probably do that.
Heck, people have done that - they've swapped from smashman builds bieng primarily thunderhammer based to being primarily teeth of terra based.
So tag the Triptych Whip version with a dreadnought, tank or whatever to bounce off of.
They just need to fix the obviously broken stuff (36 attack Succubus, DT, but the rule, not the units/weapons it affects ), then see how that shakes out. If they're still to good, bump some points (slightly) in the next CA. Worst case scenario? You have to build for DE as well as elite factions for a while and DE win more games. The sky isn't falling.
You are describing a process that takes a 6 months to a year...
Also what are you talking about? "Tag" a succubus with a dread? The way you beat a succubus is with sniper weapons. Or it is going to kill twice it's value in a single turn practically automatically and it can be even worse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 14:33:17
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
It looks like GW is saying what most of us were claiming a couple weeks ago. Just wait for Admech, Orks, Sisters... Books that are going to keep Drukhari at bay. I’d hope all codexes were released at the same time, but that’s not happening anytime soon, so this unbalancing issues are going to be common.
Dark Eldar are perfect to counter Power Armor in 9th, and reading to that comment, that’s probably intended.
You guys need to get tattoos of this. You can repeat it all you want, but Dark Eldar counter *everything*. We just saw that. Nobody is beating them except admech apparently. It is insanity to think that GW put out an army that beats all other armies until some of the non-power armor ones get codexes to fight back. That just makes no sense and assumes a competence that GW just doesn't have.
It's an incredibly stupid line of reasoning and rationale. All that sort of thing does is contribute to overall winrates or placements looking equal, but it is meaningless within an actual game situation.
Why? Well, Orks, Admech and Sisters may very well counter Drukhari.
But that's meaningless information for my Necrons or Craftworlds that currently just look to auto-lose the matchup.
If 40k was a properly competitive game and didn't have such a gigantic buy-in and time investment necessary then that sort of line of thinking would actually be reasonable. Oh there exist counters to this problematic thing in my fave competitive videogame/Esport? Cool, I can just switch over to them if I ever spot them.
That isn't how 40k works though and is not how a tabletop game should be balanced or designed.
I love my 1700$ Rock army. I just sure hope that I never have to play against a Paper army.
What's the plan with a Rock/Paper/Scissors meta when you're not just throwing your hand out? Why play 2-3 hour games when you know the outcome barring misplay/bad luck? Is that the future of tournaments? You compare lists, see if your opponent wins or loses based on their position in the triangle and move on?
edit: I could see this working if the game was designed around the concept of Teams. Like you have 5 players who bring lists and you can choose who plays what. But for 1 off PUG games or traditional 1v1 tournaments this seems horrible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 14:42:37
Bosskelot wrote: It's an incredibly stupid line of reasoning and rationale. All that sort of thing does is contribute to overall winrates or placements looking equal, but it is meaningless within an actual game situation.
Why? Well, Orks, Admech and Sisters may very well counter Drukhari.
But that's meaningless information for my Necrons or Craftworlds that currently just look to auto-lose the matchup.
If 40k was a properly competitive game and didn't have such a gigantic buy-in and time investment necessary then that sort of line of thinking would actually be reasonable. Oh there exist counters to this problematic thing in my fave competitive videogame/Esport? Cool, I can just switch over to them if I ever spot them.
That isn't how 40k works though and is not how a tabletop game should be balanced or designed.
B.c this is talking about comp, pick up games you talk to your opponent and ask what time of game level you want. I mean go ask a GSC or Tau player for a game with Marines, DG, Custodes, Quins, Sob, and almost any other army and they feel the same way if not even worst.
When I play DE for pick up games I don't take DT, i don't take Comp Edge succubus, i take other things to have more fun games and to play with new units in my collection.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 14:42:04
addnid wrote: Losing a 60 point character after blending 150 points is a great trade, and the succubus would be played even if it had no invul at all.
Oh yeah, with the dumb 36 attack razorflails and possibly even with a triptch whip builds most certainly. The only issue with triptch whip setups that indisposes her in comparison to other bomb character builds is her complete inability to scratch vehicles, but that's a minor inconvenience in the current meta where it's easy to find 100+ points of marines for her to one-shot.
If you could save 50 points on a smash captain and in exchange for that give up his ability to harm one particular category of unit, you'd probably do that.
Heck, people have done that - they've swapped from smashman builds bieng primarily thunderhammer based to being primarily teeth of terra based.
So tag the Triptych Whip version with a dreadnought, tank or whatever to bounce off of.
They just need to fix the obviously broken stuff (36 attack Succubus, DT, but the rule, not the units/weapons it affects ), then see how that shakes out. If they're still to good, bump some points (slightly) in the next CA. Worst case scenario? You have to build for DE as well as elite factions for a while and DE win more games. The sky isn't falling.
You are describing a process that takes a 6 months to a year...
Also what are you talking about? "Tag" a succubus with a dread? The way you beat a succubus is with sniper weapons. Or it is going to kill twice it's value in a single turn practically automatically and it can be even worse.
Not at the rate they release FAQs nowadays. And I was specifically talking about the Triptych Whip version, which as Scotsman says has trouble scratching vehicles. I'm assuming the 36 attack combo will be erataed in the BOR FAQ. Maybe it won't, but you can't nerf the transports of a faction designed to rely upon them into the ground. Maybe bump the DL version to 95 PPM, but 120? Settle down.
Bosskelot wrote: It's an incredibly stupid line of reasoning and rationale. All that sort of thing does is contribute to overall winrates or placements looking equal, but it is meaningless within an actual game situation.
Why? Well, Orks, Admech and Sisters may very well counter Drukhari.
But that's meaningless information for my Necrons or Craftworlds that currently just look to auto-lose the matchup.
If 40k was a properly competitive game and didn't have such a gigantic buy-in and time investment necessary then that sort of line of thinking would actually be reasonable. Oh there exist counters to this problematic thing in my fave competitive videogame/Esport? Cool, I can just switch over to them if I ever spot them.
That isn't how 40k works though and is not how a tabletop game should be balanced or designed.
Agreed.
Well if you really think about it...armies have the counters for DE already in their arsenal...they just can't customize their list against them cause that is not how we do it...
Imagine how bad a game starcraft would be if you had to pick your army units pregame and couldn't counter their units you weren't prepared for? The game wouldn't last...Thats just one more issue with the game. Some armies TAC list is just better than everyone elses TAC list. Pretty sure. If every space marine army was taking 3 TFC 3 wirlwinds and massing heavy bolters everywhere else a DE army would get smoked.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
It looks like GW is saying what most of us were claiming a couple weeks ago. Just wait for Admech, Orks, Sisters... Books that are going to keep Drukhari at bay. I’d hope all codexes were released at the same time, but that’s not happening anytime soon, so this unbalancing issues are going to be common.
Dark Eldar are perfect to counter Power Armor in 9th, and reading to that comment, that’s probably intended.
It should NOT be necessary for other books to keep DE down. What if those armies don't show at a particular tournament?
The problem partly list building and partly an overtuned codex. As noted - I still don't think people had time to adjust.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 14:46:09
Bosskelot wrote: It's an incredibly stupid line of reasoning and rationale. All that sort of thing does is contribute to overall winrates or placements looking equal, but it is meaningless within an actual game situation.
Why? Well, Orks, Admech and Sisters may very well counter Drukhari.
But that's meaningless information for my Necrons or Craftworlds that currently just look to auto-lose the matchup.
If 40k was a properly competitive game and didn't have such a gigantic buy-in and time investment necessary then that sort of line of thinking would actually be reasonable. Oh there exist counters to this problematic thing in my fave competitive videogame/Esport? Cool, I can just switch over to them if I ever spot them.
That isn't how 40k works though and is not how a tabletop game should be balanced or designed.
B.c this is talking about comp, pick up games you talk to your opponent and ask what time of game level you want. I mean go ask a GSC or Tau player for a game with Marines, DG, Custodes, Quins, Sob, and almost any other army and they feel the same way if not even worst.
When I play DE for pick up games I don't take DT, i don't take Comp Edge succubus, i take other things to have more fun games and to play with new units in my collection.
Even in fun games the cost and inherent power of the army is far above the curve as to make it incredibly difficult to make something that will play on even playing terms against other armies. This is the exact same issue as 8.5 Marines had; it was more difficult to build a "bad" army than it was otherwise. And building a "fluffy" army to fight another "fluffy" army would usually result in a stomp.
As I keep saying, the actual strength of the army and why it is winning is because of how overall cheap it is. The quote from a Goonhammer article on the weekend sums the issue up perfectly:
“I was OK after the first 2 waves but the third wave broke my back. And he still had a 4th wave that could have been sent in.”
And even in comp circles the intent should be to let as wide amount of factions compete as possible because this creates a healthy meta (important for any competitive community) but also because, again, this is not a game in which you can easily switch to counter something else. Counter armies will always exist and winrates between factions will never be equal, but the intent should be to try and improve them as much as possible and not just saying Faction X will sort the problem out because for anyone not playing Faction X it is a meaningless statement.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 14:49:39
A) 40K shouldn't be rock-paper-scissors. Every book should have a (roughly) even chance to win against every other book.
B) The "meta needs to move away from power armour" is nonsense. The meta hasn't been power armour for months. It's been Harlequins and Sisters at the top tables (yes, plenty of mid-table people still play Marines and whatever), which is all about fast T3 units trading up out of transports.
addnid wrote: Losing a 60 point character after blending 150 points is a great trade, and the succubus would be played even if it had no invul at all.
Oh yeah, with the dumb 36 attack razorflails and possibly even with a triptch whip builds most certainly. The only issue with triptch whip setups that indisposes her in comparison to other bomb character builds is her complete inability to scratch vehicles, but that's a minor inconvenience in the current meta where it's easy to find 100+ points of marines for her to one-shot.
If you could save 50 points on a smash captain and in exchange for that give up his ability to harm one particular category of unit, you'd probably do that.
Heck, people have done that - they've swapped from smashman builds bieng primarily thunderhammer based to being primarily teeth of terra based.
So tag the Triptych Whip version with a dreadnought, tank or whatever to bounce off of.
They just need to fix the obviously broken stuff (36 attack Succubus, DT, but the rule, not the units/weapons it affects ), then see how that shakes out. If they're still to good, bump some points (slightly) in the next CA. Worst case scenario? You have to build for DE as well as elite factions for a while and DE win more games. The sky isn't falling.
You are describing a process that takes a 6 months to a year...
Also what are you talking about? "Tag" a succubus with a dread? The way you beat a succubus is with sniper weapons. Or it is going to kill twice it's value in a single turn practically automatically and it can be even worse.
Not at the rate they release FAQs nowadays. And I was specifically talking about the Triptych Whip version, which as Scotsman says has trouble scratching vehicles. I'm assuming the 36 attack combo will be erataed in the BOR FAQ. Maybe it won't, but you can't nerf the transports of a faction designed to rely upon them into the ground. Maybe bump the DL version to 95 PPM, but 120? Settle down.
and impulsor with a missle launcher is 130 points. A ML and 2 SB is probably equal value to the d3+3 darklance.
The raider is more durable vs most weapons. (+1 W for imulsor +1 save and +2 T) but no 5++.
The raider allows you to shoot protected inside the transport...the impuslor allows you to get out and shoot...(Id still say advantage raider here but both are good ability...we can call that a wash)
The raider is significantly faster +4" and has fly...
The raider has actual close combat ability. The impuslor does not...
Like seriously...if a raider is worth 85...what is an impuslor worth? Considering the raider is better in almost every way and where it loses out it is just barely. Are you saying that the raider should be undercosted because that is how the army is intended to be played? That doesn't make sense.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Bosskelot wrote: It's an incredibly stupid line of reasoning and rationale. All that sort of thing does is contribute to overall winrates or placements looking equal, but it is meaningless within an actual game situation.
Why? Well, Orks, Admech and Sisters may very well counter Drukhari.
But that's meaningless information for my Necrons or Craftworlds that currently just look to auto-lose the matchup.
If 40k was a properly competitive game and didn't have such a gigantic buy-in and time investment necessary then that sort of line of thinking would actually be reasonable. Oh there exist counters to this problematic thing in my fave competitive videogame/Esport? Cool, I can just switch over to them if I ever spot them.
That isn't how 40k works though and is not how a tabletop game should be balanced or designed.
they look to autolose the matchup if they're taking the anti-MEQ weaponry that competitive lists have to to take on the majority of the current meta.
There's plenty of tools to tech into to counter drukhari if you're looking at playing a PUG against them. At this point, in a normal sort of Pickup Game situation if you know you'll be up against dark eldar you've got the same options that you generally do when a given faction is OP
1) tailor more of your list to counter them
2) ask your opponent to avoid bringing the really crazy combos.
3) avoid playing them (should be fairly easy with drukhari, they're an uncommon faction in my experience)
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
addnid wrote: Losing a 60 point character after blending 150 points is a great trade, and the succubus would be played even if it had no invul at all.
Oh yeah, with the dumb 36 attack razorflails and possibly even with a triptch whip builds most certainly. The only issue with triptch whip setups that indisposes her in comparison to other bomb character builds is her complete inability to scratch vehicles, but that's a minor inconvenience in the current meta where it's easy to find 100+ points of marines for her to one-shot.
If you could save 50 points on a smash captain and in exchange for that give up his ability to harm one particular category of unit, you'd probably do that.
Heck, people have done that - they've swapped from smashman builds bieng primarily thunderhammer based to being primarily teeth of terra based.
So tag the Triptych Whip version with a dreadnought, tank or whatever to bounce off of.
They just need to fix the obviously broken stuff (36 attack Succubus, DT, but the rule, not the units/weapons it affects ), then see how that shakes out. If they're still to good, bump some points (slightly) in the next CA. Worst case scenario? You have to build for DE as well as elite factions for a while and DE win more games. The sky isn't falling.
You are describing a process that takes a 6 months to a year...
Also what are you talking about? "Tag" a succubus with a dread? The way you beat a succubus is with sniper weapons. Or it is going to kill twice it's value in a single turn practically automatically and it can be even worse.
Not at the rate they release FAQs nowadays. And I was specifically talking about the Triptych Whip version, which as Scotsman says has trouble scratching vehicles. I'm assuming the 36 attack combo will be erataed in the BOR FAQ. Maybe it won't, but you can't nerf the transports of a faction designed to rely upon them into the ground. Maybe bump the DL version to 95 PPM, but 120? Settle down.
and impulsor with a missle launcher is 130 points. A ML and 2 SB is probably equal value to the d3+3 darklance.
The raider is more durable vs most weapons. (+1 W for imulsor +1 save and +2 T) but no 5++.
The raider allows you to shoot protected inside the transport...the impuslor allows you to get out and shoot...(Id still say advantage raider here but both are good ability...we can call that a wash)
The raider is significantly faster +4" and has fly...
The raider has actual close combat ability. The impuslor does not...
Like seriously...if a raider is worth 85...what is an impuslor worth? Considering the raider is better in almost every way and where it loses out it is just barely. Are you saying that the raider should be undercosted because that is how the army is intended to be played? That doesn't make sense.
And no one has used the Impulsor in all of 9th, maybe the Impulsor is a problem and needs a buff.....
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
