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Sunny Side Up wrote:
A) 40K shouldn't be rock-paper-scissors. Every book should have a (roughly) even chance to win against every other book.

40k shouldn't be be rock-paper-scissors at the book level, but it should be rock-paper-scissors at the list level, with each book having their respective rock-paper-scissors options.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Losing a 60 point character after blending 150 points is a great trade, and the succubus would be played even if it had no invul at all.

Oh yeah, with the dumb 36 attack razorflails and possibly even with a triptch whip builds most certainly. The only issue with triptch whip setups that indisposes her in comparison to other bomb character builds is her complete inability to scratch vehicles, but that's a minor inconvenience in the current meta where it's easy to find 100+ points of marines for her to one-shot.

If you could save 50 points on a smash captain and in exchange for that give up his ability to harm one particular category of unit, you'd probably do that.

Heck, people have done that - they've swapped from smashman builds bieng primarily thunderhammer based to being primarily teeth of terra based.

So tag the Triptych Whip version with a dreadnought, tank or whatever to bounce off of.

They just need to fix the obviously broken stuff (36 attack Succubus, DT, but the rule, not the units/weapons it affects ), then see how that shakes out. If they're still to good, bump some points (slightly) in the next CA. Worst case scenario? You have to build for DE as well as elite factions for a while and DE win more games. The sky isn't falling.

You are describing a process that takes a 6 months to a year...

Also what are you talking about? "Tag" a succubus with a dread? The way you beat a succubus is with sniper weapons. Or it is going to kill twice it's value in a single turn practically automatically and it can be even worse.

Not at the rate they release FAQs nowadays. And I was specifically talking about the Triptych Whip version, which as Scotsman says has trouble scratching vehicles. I'm assuming the 36 attack combo will be erataed in the BOR FAQ. Maybe it won't, but you can't nerf the transports of a faction designed to rely upon them into the ground. Maybe bump the DL version to 95 PPM, but 120? Settle down.

and impulsor with a missle launcher is 130 points. A ML and 2 SB is probably equal value to the d3+3 darklance.
The raider is more durable vs most weapons. (+1 W for imulsor +1 save and +2 T) but no 5++.
The raider allows you to shoot protected inside the transport...the impuslor allows you to get out and shoot...(Id still say advantage raider here but both are good ability...we can call that a wash)
The raider is significantly faster +4" and has fly...
The raider has actual close combat ability. The impuslor does not...


Like seriously...if a raider is worth 85...what is an impuslor worth? Considering the raider is better in almost every way and where it loses out it is just barely. Are you saying that the raider should be undercosted because that is how the army is intended to be played? That doesn't make sense.

*sigh* Xeno, we've been through this several times. We're in agreement that most of the loyalist tanks are overpriced, including the Impulsor. That's not a good comparison.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
You guys need to get tattoos of this. You can repeat it all you want, but Dark Eldar counter *everything*. We just saw that. Nobody is beating them except admech apparently. It is insanity to think that GW put out an army that beats all other armies until some of the non-power armor ones get codexes to fight back. That just makes no sense and assumes a competence that GW just doesn't have.

There are a bunch of really close games. DE were just fortunate to edge out a win. For example BA in 53rd played DE in 20th for round 8. The score was 94 to 91. Does that really showcase an OP army?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Losing a 60 point character after blending 150 points is a great trade, and the succubus would be played even if it had no invul at all.

Oh yeah, with the dumb 36 attack razorflails and possibly even with a triptch whip builds most certainly. The only issue with triptch whip setups that indisposes her in comparison to other bomb character builds is her complete inability to scratch vehicles, but that's a minor inconvenience in the current meta where it's easy to find 100+ points of marines for her to one-shot.

If you could save 50 points on a smash captain and in exchange for that give up his ability to harm one particular category of unit, you'd probably do that.

Heck, people have done that - they've swapped from smashman builds bieng primarily thunderhammer based to being primarily teeth of terra based.

So tag the Triptych Whip version with a dreadnought, tank or whatever to bounce off of.

They just need to fix the obviously broken stuff (36 attack Succubus, DT, but the rule, not the units/weapons it affects ), then see how that shakes out. If they're still to good, bump some points (slightly) in the next CA. Worst case scenario? You have to build for DE as well as elite factions for a while and DE win more games. The sky isn't falling.

You are describing a process that takes a 6 months to a year...

Also what are you talking about? "Tag" a succubus with a dread? The way you beat a succubus is with sniper weapons. Or it is going to kill twice it's value in a single turn practically automatically and it can be even worse.

Not at the rate they release FAQs nowadays. And I was specifically talking about the Triptych Whip version, which as Scotsman says has trouble scratching vehicles. I'm assuming the 36 attack combo will be erataed in the BOR FAQ. Maybe it won't, but you can't nerf the transports of a faction designed to rely upon them into the ground. Maybe bump the DL version to 95 PPM, but 120? Settle down.

and impulsor with a missle launcher is 130 points. A ML and 2 SB is probably equal value to the d3+3 darklance.
The raider is more durable vs most weapons. (+1 W for imulsor +1 save and +2 T) but no 5++.
The raider allows you to shoot protected inside the transport...the impuslor allows you to get out and shoot...(Id still say advantage raider here but both are good ability...we can call that a wash)
The raider is significantly faster +4" and has fly...
The raider has actual close combat ability. The impuslor does not...


Like seriously...if a raider is worth 85...what is an impuslor worth? Considering the raider is better in almost every way and where it loses out it is just barely. Are you saying that the raider should be undercosted because that is how the army is intended to be played? That doesn't make sense.

You are ignoring the fact that the Belcatus missile array actually has 3 different firing profile options, given your feelings about the extreme power of squig based buggy units you'd think you'd remember that.

but yeah a DL raider is probably 95-105pts base properly costed and the impulsor is probably 100pts base properly costed and the belcatus should only be a 10pt upgrade rather than 20pts, missile launchers are pretty much across the board overcosted atm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
You guys need to get tattoos of this. You can repeat it all you want, but Dark Eldar counter *everything*. We just saw that. Nobody is beating them except admech apparently. It is insanity to think that GW put out an army that beats all other armies until some of the non-power armor ones get codexes to fight back. That just makes no sense and assumes a competence that GW just doesn't have.

There are a bunch of really close games. DE were just fortunate to edge out a win. For example BA in 53rd played DE in 20th for round 8. The score was 94 to 91. Does that really showcase an OP army?

Yeah, its pretty clear that DE are a little ahead of the power curve and could use some recosting and removal of extraneous mechanics.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The raider is significantly faster +4" and has fly...

Point of order - Impulsor has the exact same move as a Raider.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
How do you feel about this?

Doesn't Mike Brandt work for GW now?
If this is their attitude to design it sure explains a lot.

Warhammer does not work as a rock-paper-scissors game. It doesn't matter that Admech and Orks will gak all over DE when your not playing one of those armies.

And how do they "cut the top off"? What does that even mean? Do whole units and army builds suddenly become completely unviable to bring because Admech and Orks exist as an army?
We had that with Knights before where every list that couldn't kill a knight per turn was unplayable competitively, it was gak and suffocated the meta.

I'm sure I can find some fun playing games with my friends at our local club (when that opens again). But I enjoyed competitive 40k aswell and 9th just looks horrible. The base rules are fine enough but the codexes look to ruin it.

 Ordana wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
How do you feel about this?

Doesn't Mike Brandt work for GW now?
If this is their attitude to design it sure explains a lot.

Warhammer does not work as a rock-paper-scissors game. It doesn't matter that Admech and Orks will gak all over DE when your not playing one of those armies.

And how do they "cut the top off"? What does that even mean? Do whole units and army builds suddenly become completely unviable to bring because Admech and Orks exist as an army?
We had that with Knights before where every list that couldn't kill a knight per turn was unplayable competitively, it was gak and suffocated the meta.

I'm sure I can find some fun playing games with my friends at our local club (when that opens again). But I enjoyed competitive 40k aswell and 9th just looks horrible. The base rules are fine enough but the codexes look to ruin it.

See, actually it does, because then people can point to something and go: Look, it's fine, the faction has not a too high winrate the games, balanced... nvm that it in essence has to do less with tactics and more with getting lucky to have brought the right build to a event..

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The raider is significantly faster +4" and has fly...

Point of order - Impulsor has the exact same move as a Raider.

It flies. going straight through terrain and parking for a nice turn 2 is different then being forced to drive around it. It is like me and my dad. I am over 2m tall too, I just need to raise my hands up.

Karol wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The raider is significantly faster +4" and has fly...

Point of order - Impulsor has the exact same move as a Raider.

It flies. going straight through terrain and parking for a nice turn 2 is different then being forced to drive around it. It is like me and my dad. I am over 2m tall too, I just need to raise my hands up.

....So by saying "it is significantly faster +4" and has fly" you are arguing that he actually meant "it has fly, and therefore can usually move 4" further."

^just, for folks reading along at home, if you're ever like 'hmm, what do people mean when they say 'bad faith arguments' on the internet? What does that particular buzz-phrase mean?' this right here is kind of a perfect example.

Mike Brandt has no power over balance, so you shouldn't care too much what he says about it. Also, he told anyone who would listen that first turn advantage wasn't a thing for months when it clearly was, right up until they suddenly changed the missions to admit that, well, first turn advantage was a big thing. His track record on admitting issues in 9th is not good.

That said, the fact that GW is letting him post damage control to the effect that "wait until you see the new codexes that are better at killing DE!" is somewhat concerning, because that's a disaster of a PR message.

But lets assume it is true, and that mr Brandt is right, and lets say the new ad mecha codex is the DE killer. How does it change the fact, that the game is unfun for everyone who is not playing DEs and Ad mecha, till CWE come out and are more broken then either of those?

It practicaly forces people in to, either a wait mode, in hope that their GSC or IG book is going to be reallly good, and that it won't come at the very end of 9th or even doesn't come out in 9th at all, considedring how late they are with stuff. Or they have to buy a new army if they want to have fun in 9th.

I don't know enough about model selling to know, if either of those is a good way to generate sells.

I'm sorry, for the people treading out the "all the games were really close" argument:

Just because the games ENDED close doesn't mean the games were close. If the Drukhari all scored 94 points all in the last two rounds, it wasn't close. I saw a few games where the D's scored almost 25 unanswered ppr, and that's insane. You shouldn't be able to single handedly crush an opponent in every phase of subsequent rounds,

I don't see how Druks keep their current level. And I am by no means a competitive or even good player. But I still avoid playing people with this faction off tops.

 the_scotsman wrote:


....So by saying "it is significantly faster +4" and has fly" you are arguing that he actually meant "it has fly, and therefore can usually move 4" further."

^just, for folks reading along at home, if you're ever like 'hmm, what do people mean when they say 'bad faith arguments' on the internet? What does that particular buzz-phrase mean?' this right here is kind of a perfect example.

How is it bad faith. One thing has to go around terrain and the other doesn't. Of course it makes it faster. Unless you play on a table with no terrain, which was already established to be a bad idea in 9th ed.
In fact I have a real example for this. I had a cousin who went to the same middle school as me. Same range to school, only I had to walk the side road to get there, and he had the black lake in front of him. Meaning he had to both wake up an hour later, and it took him over an hour to get to school. And he didn't even go back home on his own. He walked back with me to our home, and then his parents would pick him up.

If getting to the same place takes you more turns, you very much are faster.

Karol wrote:
It flies. going straight through terrain and parking for a nice turn 2 is different then being forced to drive around it. It is like me and my dad. I am over 2m tall too, I just need to raise my hands up.

Yes and there is some flexibility to it, but it isn't magic and Impulsors aren't slow by any metric.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
But lets assume it is true, and that mr Brandt is right, and lets say the new ad mecha codex is the DE killer. How does it change the fact, that the game is unfun for everyone who is not playing DEs and Ad mecha, till CWE come out and are more broken then either of those?

It doesn't, but there's more to his message than just that single point.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Losing a 60 point character after blending 150 points is a great trade, and the succubus would be played even if it had no invul at all.

Oh yeah, with the dumb 36 attack razorflails and possibly even with a triptch whip builds most certainly. The only issue with triptch whip setups that indisposes her in comparison to other bomb character builds is her complete inability to scratch vehicles, but that's a minor inconvenience in the current meta where it's easy to find 100+ points of marines for her to one-shot.

If you could save 50 points on a smash captain and in exchange for that give up his ability to harm one particular category of unit, you'd probably do that.

Heck, people have done that - they've swapped from smashman builds bieng primarily thunderhammer based to being primarily teeth of terra based.

So tag the Triptych Whip version with a dreadnought, tank or whatever to bounce off of.

They just need to fix the obviously broken stuff (36 attack Succubus, DT, but the rule, not the units/weapons it affects ), then see how that shakes out. If they're still to good, bump some points (slightly) in the next CA. Worst case scenario? You have to build for DE as well as elite factions for a while and DE win more games. The sky isn't falling.

You are describing a process that takes a 6 months to a year...

Also what are you talking about? "Tag" a succubus with a dread? The way you beat a succubus is with sniper weapons. Or it is going to kill twice it's value in a single turn practically automatically and it can be even worse.

Not at the rate they release FAQs nowadays. And I was specifically talking about the Triptych Whip version, which as Scotsman says has trouble scratching vehicles. I'm assuming the 36 attack combo will be erataed in the BOR FAQ. Maybe it won't, but you can't nerf the transports of a faction designed to rely upon them into the ground. Maybe bump the DL version to 95 PPM, but 120? Settle down.

and impulsor with a missle launcher is 130 points. A ML and 2 SB is probably equal value to the d3+3 darklance.
The raider is more durable vs most weapons. (+1 W for imulsor +1 save and +2 T) but no 5++.
The raider allows you to shoot protected inside the transport...the impuslor allows you to get out and shoot...(Id still say advantage raider here but both are good ability...we can call that a wash)
The raider is significantly faster +4" and has fly...
The raider has actual close combat ability. The impuslor does not...


Like seriously...if a raider is worth 85...what is an impuslor worth? Considering the raider is better in almost every way and where it loses out it is just barely. Are you saying that the raider should be undercosted because that is how the army is intended to be played? That doesn't make sense.

You are ignoring the fact that the Belcatus missile array actually has 3 different firing profile options, given your feelings about the extreme power of squig based buggy units you'd think you'd remember that.

but yeah a DL raider is probably 95-105pts base properly costed and the impulsor is probably 100pts base properly costed and the belcatus should only be a 10pt upgrade rather than 20pts, missile launchers are pretty much across the board overcosted atm.

Oh dear, this discussion makes me feel even worst for the poor overprized rhino. I wonder if at the moment has the honor to be the worst transport in the whole game.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, for the people treading out the "all the games were really close" argument:

Just because the games ENDED close doesn't mean the games were close. If the Drukhari all scored 94 points all in the last two rounds, it wasn't close. I saw a few games where the D's scored almost 25 unanswered ppr, and that's insane. You shouldn't be able to single handedly crush an opponent in every phase of subsequent rounds,

I don't see how Druks keep their current level. And I am by no means a competitive or even good player. But I still avoid playing people with this faction off tops.

DE is a brutal army. There is little chance these were 'come from behind' scenarios or whatever reason you wish to use to be able to mentally dismiss the games. And even if it was a catch-up scenario it would still be a close game, because you front loaded enough points to score almost max points...

That is not just a flexibility. If w40k was played with terrain that doesn't block line of sight, we would not have as much problems with DE, we would on the other hand have problems with stuff being blown up turn 1.

If two units that are suppose to do the same thing, have a different amount of turns to reach the same point, in an edition where you have to be in specific places very fast or you will just lose on points, a unit that flies is faster then a unit that doesn't fly. What the hell is it then, if it isn't faster? slower maybe.

Karol wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:


....So by saying "it is significantly faster +4" and has fly" you are arguing that he actually meant "it has fly, and therefore can usually move 4" further."

^just, for folks reading along at home, if you're ever like 'hmm, what do people mean when they say 'bad faith arguments' on the internet? What does that particular buzz-phrase mean?' this right here is kind of a perfect example.

How is it bad faith. One thing has to go around terrain and the other doesn't. Of course it makes it faster. Unless you play on a table with no terrain, which was already established to be a bad idea in 9th ed.
In fact I have a real example for this. I had a cousin who went to the same middle school as me. Same range to school, only I had to walk the side road to get there, and he had the black lake in front of him. Meaning he had to both wake up an hour later, and it took him over an hour to get to school. And he didn't even go back home on his own. He walked back with me to our home, and then his parents would pick him up.

If getting to the same place takes you more turns, you very much are faster.

Basically, internet telephone.

initial post was "It is 4" faster AND IT HAS FLY"

someone pointed out "it is not 4" faster."

you chimed in "it is effectively faster, because it has fly."

You are a person who hates all 3 of the 'elf' factions. Any statement you make about balance, or competitive winrate, or whatever, is purely just based on the fact that you really, really, really dislike those 3 factions. I know for a fact you'd still be saying that Drukhari or Harlequins deserve nerfs, because you currently do for CWE, who are currently underpowered.

That is the definition of 'bad faith.' you have a conclusion (elfs bad) and any statement you make regarding balance, winrates, rules, whatever, tilts toward that conclusion, regardless of what you're actually talking about. If I made a claim like "Harlequins are OP because they move 16" " or "Harlequins are OP because they are toughness 7" you would defend that claim by whatever means is necessary to reach the conclusion, elfs bad.

 Tyran wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
A) 40K shouldn't be rock-paper-scissors. Every book should have a (roughly) even chance to win against every other book.

40k shouldn't be be rock-paper-scissors at the book level, but it should be rock-paper-scissors at the list level, with each book having their respective rock-paper-scissors options.

Sure. But the frequent comments these days of "Drukhari are fine, cause AdMech & Orks are gonna counter them" strongly imply people think the way forward is the book level. Which is what I disagree with.

psipso wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Losing a 60 point character after blending 150 points is a great trade, and the succubus would be played even if it had no invul at all.

Oh yeah, with the dumb 36 attack razorflails and possibly even with a triptch whip builds most certainly. The only issue with triptch whip setups that indisposes her in comparison to other bomb character builds is her complete inability to scratch vehicles, but that's a minor inconvenience in the current meta where it's easy to find 100+ points of marines for her to one-shot.

If you could save 50 points on a smash captain and in exchange for that give up his ability to harm one particular category of unit, you'd probably do that.

Heck, people have done that - they've swapped from smashman builds bieng primarily thunderhammer based to being primarily teeth of terra based.

So tag the Triptych Whip version with a dreadnought, tank or whatever to bounce off of.

They just need to fix the obviously broken stuff (36 attack Succubus, DT, but the rule, not the units/weapons it affects ), then see how that shakes out. If they're still to good, bump some points (slightly) in the next CA. Worst case scenario? You have to build for DE as well as elite factions for a while and DE win more games. The sky isn't falling.

You are describing a process that takes a 6 months to a year...

Also what are you talking about? "Tag" a succubus with a dread? The way you beat a succubus is with sniper weapons. Or it is going to kill twice it's value in a single turn practically automatically and it can be even worse.

Not at the rate they release FAQs nowadays. And I was specifically talking about the Triptych Whip version, which as Scotsman says has trouble scratching vehicles. I'm assuming the 36 attack combo will be erataed in the BOR FAQ. Maybe it won't, but you can't nerf the transports of a faction designed to rely upon them into the ground. Maybe bump the DL version to 95 PPM, but 120? Settle down.

and impulsor with a missle launcher is 130 points. A ML and 2 SB is probably equal value to the d3+3 darklance.
The raider is more durable vs most weapons. (+1 W for imulsor +1 save and +2 T) but no 5++.
The raider allows you to shoot protected inside the transport...the impuslor allows you to get out and shoot...(Id still say advantage raider here but both are good ability...we can call that a wash)
The raider is significantly faster +4" and has fly...
The raider has actual close combat ability. The impuslor does not...


Like seriously...if a raider is worth 85...what is an impuslor worth? Considering the raider is better in almost every way and where it loses out it is just barely. Are you saying that the raider should be undercosted because that is how the army is intended to be played? That doesn't make sense.

You are ignoring the fact that the Belcatus missile array actually has 3 different firing profile options, given your feelings about the extreme power of squig based buggy units you'd think you'd remember that.

but yeah a DL raider is probably 95-105pts base properly costed and the impulsor is probably 100pts base properly costed and the belcatus should only be a 10pt upgrade rather than 20pts, missile launchers are pretty much across the board overcosted atm.

Oh dear, this discussion makes me feel even worst for the poor overprized rhino. I wonder if at the moment has the honor to be the worst transport in the whole game.

Naw, not even close. Sisters' version of the rhino is pretty good, thanks to sisters having glass cannon units that actually benefit from its protection and the fact that their version gets a 6++ invuln as a little bonus.

The problem with Rhinos in Space Marines is that the marines inside are often tougher to kill than the rhino itself.

The worst 'pure transport' in the game is probably either the devilfish or the chimera. Probably Chimera, there's just nothing good about paying 75pts to transport 60pts of guardsmen.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sure. But the frequent comments these days of "Drukhari are fine, cause AdMech & Orks are gonna counter them" strongly imply people think the way forward is the book level. Which is what I disagree with.

Agreed.

The main problem is, the general idea behind what a transport is doesn't really function in 8th/9th outside of Open Topped: that a transport should, 1, make the unit inside capable of fighting optimally faster than if the unit were outside a transport, and 2, should make the unit inside more durable vs the types of weapons that would typically target it.

Pure "metal box" transports like the Rhino, Chimera, Devilfish and Wave Serpent fail category 1 because of how 8th/9th handles disembarkation, except specifically for slow assault units who could not have gotten into range until turn 2.

I could shoot 1 shot at 30" with my fire warriors turn 1, then 2 shots at 15" turn 2, or I could embark them into a devilfish and....shoot 0 shots turn 1 and 2 shots turn 2. Hm. So I made myself...less effective...by buying this additional unit...

For this reason, you basically only see two types of transport getting used in 8th/9th - metal box to protect slow melee unit, or open-topped transport to make short range shooty unit faster.

Open-topped transports work fine, unless the faction has no good short ranged shooty unit (see: Orks, Genestealer Cults). Closed box transports work fine, unless the faction has no good slow glass cannon melee unit that can embark (see loyalist SM rhino, Devilfish, Chimera)

And then there's "afterthought" transports that are primarily tanks, but pay enough extra points to be unviable as tanks but which are still awkward to use as transports because they're so expensive and typically have longer-range guns. Land Raiders, all the flyer transports, falcons/wave serpents, Goliath Rockgrinders.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

I'm positive points can be rejiggered for every faction down the line, but I find it disingenuous that DE need to be immediately hit before the meta has had a chance to adapt when Eradicators, blade guard vets, apothecaries etc. etc. have all gotten a free pass for 9 months.

None of those things led to Space Marines being nearly as dominant as Dark Eldar are now (despite the fact that everyone but them and Necrons were stuck in eighth edition land) my man. You don't have to like it, but it's true.

Bull

I've just been around the block long enough to recognize that win rate alone is a garbage measure.

Marines are always the dominant % of the representation in the meta, which leads to a couple minor inconveniences to your points.

A. They knock knock themselves down in WR% due to the mirror match

B. When the meta is dominated by certain units, it tailors more readily.

That's why folks are complaining about their armies in regard to DE now, because they can't play the game without tailoring, and having to tailor against 5% of the field is too inconvenient.

Which leads to them honestly outing themselves as lazy players that just want to plug an play their net list rather then adapt and think outside the box.

Space marines have been taking at most 12 data sheets out of easily the deepest bench of slates in the game, which tells me those particular units ARE overly point efficient and too easy to play on cruise control.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Losing a 60 point character after blending 150 points is a great trade, and the succubus would be played even if it had no invul at all.

Oh yeah, with the dumb 36 attack razorflails and possibly even with a triptch whip builds most certainly. The only issue with triptch whip setups that indisposes her in comparison to other bomb character builds is her complete inability to scratch vehicles, but that's a minor inconvenience in the current meta where it's easy to find 100+ points of marines for her to one-shot.

If you could save 50 points on a smash captain and in exchange for that give up his ability to harm one particular category of unit, you'd probably do that.

Heck, people have done that - they've swapped from smashman builds bieng primarily thunderhammer based to being primarily teeth of terra based.

So tag the Triptych Whip version with a dreadnought, tank or whatever to bounce off of.

They just need to fix the obviously broken stuff (36 attack Succubus, DT, but the rule, not the units/weapons it affects ), then see how that shakes out. If they're still to good, bump some points (slightly) in the next CA. Worst case scenario? You have to build for DE as well as elite factions for a while and DE win more games. The sky isn't falling.

You are describing a process that takes a 6 months to a year...

Also what are you talking about? "Tag" a succubus with a dread? The way you beat a succubus is with sniper weapons. Or it is going to kill twice it's value in a single turn practically automatically and it can be even worse.

Not at the rate they release FAQs nowadays. And I was specifically talking about the Triptych Whip version, which as Scotsman says has trouble scratching vehicles. I'm assuming the 36 attack combo will be erataed in the BOR FAQ. Maybe it won't, but you can't nerf the transports of a faction designed to rely upon them into the ground. Maybe bump the DL version to 95 PPM, but 120? Settle down.

and impulsor with a missle launcher is 130 points. A ML and 2 SB is probably equal value to the d3+3 darklance.
The raider is more durable vs most weapons. (+1 W for imulsor +1 save and +2 T) but no 5++.
The raider allows you to shoot protected inside the transport...the impuslor allows you to get out and shoot...(Id still say advantage raider here but both are good ability...we can call that a wash)
The raider is significantly faster +4" and has fly...
The raider has actual close combat ability. The impuslor does not...


Like seriously...if a raider is worth 85...what is an impuslor worth? Considering the raider is better in almost every way and where it loses out it is just barely. Are you saying that the raider should be undercosted because that is how the army is intended to be played? That doesn't make sense.

And no one has used the Impulsor in all of 9th, maybe the Impulsor is a problem and needs a buff.....

That could be the problem but DE are the army with a 70%+ win rate. I would wager 3 raiders + is a pretty standard build. My 2000 point list includes 6 - at that point costs why not? Impuslor clearly costs too much but the raider also clearly costs too little.




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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The raider is significantly faster +4" and has fly...

Point of order - Impulsor has the exact same move as a Raider.

My mistake - I been so long since I've used one. It is significantly faster because it has fly.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
You guys need to get tattoos of this. You can repeat it all you want, but Dark Eldar counter *everything*. We just saw that. Nobody is beating them except admech apparently. It is insanity to think that GW put out an army that beats all other armies until some of the non-power armor ones get codexes to fight back. That just makes no sense and assumes a competence that GW just doesn't have.

There are a bunch of really close games. DE were just fortunate to edge out a win. For example BA in 53rd played DE in 20th for round 8. The score was 94 to 91. Does that really showcase an OP army?

That's a fair point, but it also feels a little goalpost-moving-y. You've said before how you were looking for a big tourney where DE just absolutely dumpstered the top 5. We got that here. Yeah, some of the games were close, but that'll always be the case. To be fair, I don't think a single tournament is too much evidence of anything (even a big, long one like this), but I'd say the massive preponderance of evidence points to DE being an issue.

 Ordana wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
How do you feel about this?

Doesn't Mike Brandt work for GW now?
If this is their attitude to design it sure explains a lot.

Warhammer does not work as a rock-paper-scissors game. It doesn't matter that Admech and Orks will gak all over DE when your not playing one of those armies.

And how do they "cut the top off"? What does that even mean? Do whole units and army builds suddenly become completely unviable to bring because Admech and Orks exist as an army?
We had that with Knights before where every list that couldn't kill a knight per turn was unplayable competitively, it was gak and suffocated the meta.

I'm sure I can find some fun playing games with my friends at our local club (when that opens again). But I enjoyed competitive 40k aswell and 9th just looks horrible. The base rules are fine enough but the codexes look to ruin it.

Every game is rock-paper-scissors, there is no way everything to be perfectly balanced with so many factions and units. Obviously some things will be better vs certain things and that cannot be considered bad, because it prevent spam of certain type of units, because there is really had counter, it keep the field honest.
That is the reason in team tournaments where you have control of what the army is playing, extreme builds are more popular.
What is problematic is when certain combination of units is good vs 90% of the field for the mission played.

Marin wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
How do you feel about this?

Doesn't Mike Brandt work for GW now?
If this is their attitude to design it sure explains a lot.

Warhammer does not work as a rock-paper-scissors game. It doesn't matter that Admech and Orks will gak all over DE when your not playing one of those armies.

And how do they "cut the top off"? What does that even mean? Do whole units and army builds suddenly become completely unviable to bring because Admech and Orks exist as an army?
We had that with Knights before where every list that couldn't kill a knight per turn was unplayable competitively, it was gak and suffocated the meta.

I'm sure I can find some fun playing games with my friends at our local club (when that opens again). But I enjoyed competitive 40k aswell and 9th just looks horrible. The base rules are fine enough but the codexes look to ruin it.

Every game is rock-paper-scissors, there is no way everything to be perfectly balanced with so many factions and units. Obviously some things will be better vs certain things and that cannot be considered bad, because it prevent spam of certain type of units, because there is really had counter, it keep the field honest.
That is the reason in team tournaments where you have control of what the army is playing, extreme builds are more popular.
What is problematic is when certain combination of units is good vs 90% of the field for the mission played.

Units like say...harlie troops or DE wyches that reliably charge 20 + inches out of a transport through a breachable wall you can't shoot through? And the game mandates you have such large pieces of terrain in literally every game?

Yeah dude...that is gonna work vs practically everything and it isn't any surprise. The game is gross right now.

Every game is rock paper scissors. The issue is this game forces you to chose to play rock paper or scissors before you know what you are fighting. It is the same old tired argument about tactical squads...tactical squads are flexible and can take a lot of different weapon options....but they aren't flexible at all in game because you have to choose a plasma gun or a flamer during list contruction. OFC this is true of every armies units but...it also means tactical marines aren't any more flexible than any other type of unit.

I wonder if people would have any interest in variable army builds depending on matchup. Kind of like a magic sideboard.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nayden lost to Admech - plenty of anti-tank. He did beat Harlies though, which is interesting - too much AT and too close? He also beat 9 attack bikes, 10 MM devs, and 3 flamer cents - again lots of AT with no follow up.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vanella lost to the same Admech player who Nayden lost to - interesting.

The thing about Drukhari is that if you allow them to get too close you have lost the game(this goes especially with Wyches). My guess is that Ad Mech was able to shoot down raiders quickly enough to keep the enemy at bay whereas Harlequins tend to have a short range on fusion pistol which results in them being dead after popping the raiders up close and personal.

Or ademch players actual have a clue and use their transports as well. Admech can kill you at any range and force you to assault their transports, or get close, at which point they can 1cp detonate every transport they eventually lose which creates havoc amongst DE. It's even funnier when they 0cp get out their own exploded rides, or add 2cp and get out safely 6" further back.

40k maybe shouldn't work as a rock/paper/scissors game - but historically it usually has - or its worked on the basis of "bad/okay/good/just obviously superior to everything" tier list. Because its just about maximising your power for points, rather than teching in any particular direction.

Whether other armies can "cut the top off" DE depends really on whether you think the current DE list is a meta skew, or, as I think most would argue, its just the best bits of the codex all chucked in together.

In the former it might be that say Ad Mech/Sisters/Orks have a major advantage against DE lists as we currently see, and this should force DE lists to evolve in a way that's worse against the Meta as it is right now - but better versus what the meta is in 6-12 months.

But I think the examples of this happening are very low. Its much more common for a codex to be powerful until its either nerfed or a few years of codex creep see it lose its lustre.

Equally, its hard to see how these factions would say hard counter DE - but not equally be powerful versus every faction in the game.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
You guys need to get tattoos of this. You can repeat it all you want, but Dark Eldar counter *everything*. We just saw that. Nobody is beating them except admech apparently. It is insanity to think that GW put out an army that beats all other armies until some of the non-power armor ones get codexes to fight back. That just makes no sense and assumes a competence that GW just doesn't have.

There are a bunch of really close games. DE were just fortunate to edge out a win. For example BA in 53rd played DE in 20th for round 8. The score was 94 to 91. Does that really showcase an OP army?

That's a fair point, but it also feels a little goalpost-moving-y. You've said before how you were looking for a big tourney where DE just absolutely dumpstered the top 5. We got that here. Yeah, some of the games were close, but that'll always be the case. To be fair, I don't think a single tournament is too much evidence of anything (even a big, long one like this), but I'd say the massive preponderance of evidence points to DE being an issue.

Fair enough.