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TangoTwoBravo wrote:

I think that Unit, Katherine and I are having a dialogue about pick up games. I don't think we are making value judgements. Just because I prefer Matched Play for my pick up games doesn’t mean I am saying people playing narrative are having fun the wrong way. I hope that people play the way they enjoy. I do think that people often use Casual when they really mean “narrative” or as a way to separate themselves from tournament players. Makes it hard to discuss Casual play when there is no working definition.

Youre not wrong.

I'm less bothered about matched play as I play with a small group of like minded players. Our 'understanding' trumps the need for a rules set that allows you to play against a total stranger (not that I'd want to do that anyway, at least until I know what kind of game they're after).

You are correct however in stating there is no working definition for casual play. I've seen a dozen different versions promoted on this thread alone. Imo, too often people use casual not so much to define 'narrative', but rather as 'not tournament' and by extension, 'not competitive'. At the more extreme ends this declaration of 'not competitive' is also a catch all term for anything that isn't tournament play and cam be a very deliberate snub to those playstyles as well as an attempt to devalue those that enjoy a different approach.

Casual means 'less invested', indifferent, without serious intent or commitment. Narrative play, at least at the higher end, is a serious business, takes a lit if work and requires a very strong understanding of the game. Narrative is it's own thing, it's not 'casual', or as some haters claim 'throwing dice around and making pew pew noises'.

The opposite of casual is 'serious' in my mind, rather than 'competitive'.

Casual/serious and conpetitive/non competitive track different things and should not be confused with each other.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Here is a honest-to-god casual game question.

Would you play someone who showed up with a Vigilus detachment? They are not allowed in games played out of the GT pack thingy but they remain viable in other situations (including non-GT-pack Matched Play if I am not mistaken).

I don't keep up all that much so why wouldn't I play against it. If I know ahead of time, or remember too, I'll pack my Ork units from the Index and use the FW Index Mekka Dreads. And are we using 8th or 9th for the rule set. do I need my Maelstrom of war cards. It's just that simple for me. Orks wrecking face = a good time.

 the_scotsman wrote:
It's really weird to have to sort of explain this kind of play, because it's honestly pretty bizarre how it seems like there are lots of people online who fundamentally don't get where the enjoyment comes from if you're not using any available information you have to make sure you win the game as hard as possible. It's like trying to explain why a good joke is funny.

...the... aristocrats?

Canadian 5th wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:To quote DashofPepper:

"Playing is fun. Winning is more fun. So play to win."

Perhaps winning is more fun to some, but winning comes second to other factors for me, so I definitely don't play with "winning" as my primary goal.
Is that too hard to imagine?

As a sports fan, yes.

In which case, sincerely, I can only feel sorry for what you're missing.

I don't cheer for my team to go out and try their best, I cheer for them to win. When I was younger and played sports I sure as hell wanted to do what I could to help my team win. Even now when I play a game like League I'm trying to emulate what the best players in the world due to the best of my own limited ability. I get frustrated when I play well and lose and even more frustrated when I play poorly and win.
...
If you play me with such a list, likely due to shop table space constraints, I will play to table you as swiftly as possible so I can move on and find a more enjoyable game.

That's absolutely fine for you - if that's the only way you find enjoyment, pursue that. But not everyone shares that same trait, and at least recognising that other people find enjoyment differently and that it is a different, but valid, way, would go a long distance.

AnomanderRake wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
...Pushing minis around and going pew pew without a care in the world about any sort of objective is definitely "playing 40k" in my eyes.

Do you find "we just push minis around and make pew pew noises with no regard for any rules" requires much discussion?

Yes, I think it deserves as much discussion as people are willing to give it. I certainly don't agree with the seeming impression I'm getting of "I think pushing minis around with no regard for rules is stupid so we shouldn't discuss it".

If you don't want to discuss it, don't, but don't cut off that avenue for people who can and do.

the_scotsman wrote:It's really weird to have to sort of explain this kind of play, because it's honestly pretty bizarre how it seems like there are lots of people online who fundamentally don't get where the enjoyment comes from if you're not using any available information you have to make sure you win the game as hard as possible. It's like trying to explain why a good joke is funny.

Yeah, if you simply can't understand how to enjoy something beyond game mechanics, there's going to be a very difficult disconnect here.

Yeah, if you simply can't understand how to enjoy something beyond game mechanics, there's going to be a very difficult disconnect here.

Have you ever done sports in your life? Like on a regional or country level. Because it is like that.
But even ultras, they don't really care about the match that much, or who wins in the end, although it is not like they are sad if they win the championships, but in general what they care about is training and the next group fight with other teams. There is a really small batch that do work on stuff like fireworks or banners. Playing w40k to play w40k is like that. You don't really have to like or want to do anything else related.

In which case, sincerely, I can only feel sorry for what you're missing.

How does that even work. If someone doesn't want or like to paint, and even less read stuff in english or really horrible translations in their own language. Then what are they missing exactly? That is like me being alergic to crab, and someone telling me I miss stuff, because I don't eat them.

Warhammer is not a competitive sport - it was created to be as much a co-op exercise as it was a competitive one. Both are valid and most people will incorporate both into their hobby.

You don't smash your own team mate for the glory of scoring the try yourself.

Karol wrote:

Yeah, if you simply can't understand how to enjoy something beyond game mechanics, there's going to be a very difficult disconnect here.

Have you ever done sports in your life?

For the fun of playing it? Absolutely. When I play a physical game, I'm mostly playing it for the excuse to socialise, to stretch my legs, to bond over a mutual activity.
I don't care who wins.

Playing w40k to play w40k is like that. You don't really have to like or want to do anything else related.

It's really not. If that's how you play 40k, that's your way of playing, but it's not the only, or even the one "correct", way to play.

In which case, sincerely, I can only feel sorry for what you're missing.

How does that even work.

It's a turn of phrase. I can be sorry for what someone else is lacking. I can be sorry that my friends might not share the same tastes as me, because I feel that they are missing something that I deem valuable. They might not share that same value, but I can still lament their lack of something I see as valuable.

Karol wrote:

Yeah, if you simply can't understand how to enjoy something beyond game mechanics, there's going to be a very difficult disconnect here.

Have you ever done sports in your life? Like on a regional or country level. Because it is like that.
But even ultras, they don't really care about the match that much, or who wins in the end, although it is not like they are sad if they win the championships, but in general what they care about is training and the next group fight with other teams. There is a really small batch that do work on stuff like fireworks or banners. Playing w40k to play w40k is like that. You don't really have to like or want to do anything else related.

In which case, sincerely, I can only feel sorry for what you're missing.

How does that even work. If someone doesn't want or like to paint, and even less read stuff in english or really horrible translations in their own language. Then what are they missing exactly? That is like me being alergic to crab, and someone telling me I miss stuff, because I don't eat them.

Well if the competitive mindset is your thing I guess it's hard to understand playing for fun. For me on the other hand I never really cared about the competitive aspect of sports, it was even what kept me away from it. Playing was okay, but I never understood those competitive players that became really grumpy when losing or had only fun when winning.
And it's the same with 40K. Tournaments to me seem like a really stripped down version of the game where you reduce it to one style of mission, don't tell a story and your Minis become nothing more than tokens. But that's not what I play wargames for.

Karol wrote:

Yeah, if you simply can't understand how to enjoy something beyond game mechanics, there's going to be a very difficult disconnect here.

Have you ever done sports in your life? Like on a regional or country level. Because it is like that.
But even ultras, they don't really care about the match that much, or who wins in the end, although it is not like they are sad if they win the championships, but in general what they care about is training and the next group fight with other teams. There is a really small batch that do work on stuff like fireworks or banners. Playing w40k to play w40k is like that. You don't really have to like or want to do anything else related.

In which case, sincerely, I can only feel sorry for what you're missing.

How does that even work. If someone doesn't want or like to paint, and even less read stuff in english or really horrible translations in their own language. Then what are they missing exactly? That is like me being alergic to crab, and someone telling me I miss stuff, because I don't eat them.

Mate, played competitive sports through college, you can turn off that "switch", it's not hard to do.
Think about casual games of 40K as a 3D movie going on in front of you. You may lose the game, and some times badly, but the little cinematic events that happen can stick with you and be discussed with friends down the line. The sgt in a squad that refused to die when outnumbered 10-1, a lasgun taking the last wound from a rampaging dread...etc, etc. This is what casual and narrative gaming creates. It can start before a game with choosing a mission from all the different sources (I've played many of the Vigilus and Chapter Approved missions), then building an army with that mission in mind (likewise your opponent). You then play normally, except you may choose to do certain actions that you wouldn't in a competitive situation (it's more fun to see my lone character charge that blob and die gloriously than to hide behind this big piece of terrain becasue it's the last turn and denies the opponent points).

i also have the ability to turn on my competitive switch if I'm going to a tournament, I'm not a robot.

For the fun of playing it? Absolutely. When I play a physical game, I'm mostly playing it for the excuse to socialise, to stretch my legs, to bond over a mutual activity.
I don't care who wins.

Then that is not sport. sports are played to win, every trainer will tell you that first day of sports school or training camp.

It's really not. If that's how you play 40k, that's your way of playing, but it's not the only, or even the proper, way to play.

If majority of people play the game within one rule set, then the rule set is the reality. It is like saying that you will try to play sports out side of control of IOC. you do that you automatically don't do sports, you play and playing ain't sport.

But even if you were right, and matched play was not the proper way to play, which kind of rises the question of all the books and rules being printed and not being free, there is still the majority rule. If majority does something in a specific way, then it is official and good. And non of the background activities releated to w40k are required to play the game. Just like do sports you don't even need to read and write, heck I have seen schools have players who didn't even spoke polish or russian, but one can't really argue with a 1,85 120kg 16 year old in the youth division.

It's a turn of phrase. I can be sorry for what someone else is lacking. I can be sorry that my friends might not share the same tastes as me, because I feel that they are missing something that I deem valuable. They might not share that same value, but I can still lament their lack of something I see as valuable.

But why say it, if it isn't true. People don't care about those no releated to them and even less about those they don't agree or who are different. You don't feel sorry for him, it feels more like you are trying to moral high ground over the other person, as if somehow they were not doing something the proper way or not getting the full expiriance. It is like starting an argument with , when I grew up I started to do this, as if hinting that before the actions were those of a child and immature, and there for wrong.

Karol wrote:

For the fun of playing it? Absolutely. When I play a physical game, I'm mostly playing it for the excuse to socialise, to stretch my legs, to bond over a mutual activity.
I don't care who wins.

Then that is not sport. sports are played to win, every trainer will tell you that first day of sports school or training camp.

No Karol, you are wrong. That is not what a sport is. Your trainers lied to you (probably after taking a muscle biopsy and sending you to the correct sports Gulag and injecting you with steroids, lol).

Karol wrote:

For the fun of playing it? Absolutely. When I play a physical game, I'm mostly playing it for the excuse to socialise, to stretch my legs, to bond over a mutual activity.
I don't care who wins.

Then that is not sport. sports are played to win, every trainer will tell you that first day of sports school or training camp.

Not really sure how to tell you this, but that's probably the most reductive take I've seen on the matter.

A couple of kids kicking a ball at an open goal for the sheer sake of kicking around a ball is sport.
A game of basketball where everyone's quite forgotten the score and are quite happy taking wild shots is sport.
Creating an intricate and physically fulfilling gymnastics routine because it feels good on your own body is sport.

The idea that sport can only be undertaken for a set win condition is hilariously limiting. If you can only enjoy it that way, that's down to you, but it's not been, and has never been, the only way to enjoy it.

It's really not. If that's how you play 40k, that's your way of playing, but it's not the only, or even the proper, way to play.

If majority of people play the game within one rule set, then the rule set is the reality.

The majority of 40k players aren't tournament players. In fact, I'd even hazard to guess that most people who have 40k models don't play them nearly as much as they just collect or paint them - on a global scale, that is.

It is like saying that you will try to play sports out side of control of IOC. you do that you automatically don't do sports, you play and playing ain't sport.

Uh, that's simply not true.
Just because you're not playing under official rules of guidelines doesn't change the fact that you're playing a sport, that's a ridiculously elitist viewpoint.

But even if you were right, and matched play was not the proper way to play,

There is no "proper" way outside of whatever works for you. You seem to think that there is a single one "proper" way. There isn't.

If majority does something in a specific way, then it is official and good.

That's not how that works at all.

The majority of theatre follows specific conventions and stylistic qualities, but that doesn't make it "official" or even "good", and it doesn't disqualify convention breaking material as "unofficial" or "bad".

Majority opinion is still just an opinion.

And non of the background activities releated to w40k are required to play the game.

And likewise, playing the game isn't required to paint or collect. It's entirely possible to enjoy 40k without ever rolling a dice.

And I'd actually be willing to guess that there's an incredibly large proportion of the 40k fanbase who don't play at all.

Just like do sports you don't even need to read and write, heck I have seen schools have players who didn't even spoke polish or russian, but one can't really argue with a 1,85 120kg 16 year old in the youth division.

O-kayyyy? What relevance does that have on the topic?

It's a turn of phrase. I can be sorry for what someone else is lacking. I can be sorry that my friends might not share the same tastes as me, because I feel that they are missing something that I deem valuable. They might not share that same value, but I can still lament their lack of something I see as valuable.

But why say it, if it isn't true.

It is true. I can feel sorrow for what I perceive to be someone else's loss. They might not see it as a loss, which is completely valid for them, but I can still regret that they don't share my particular taste. But regardless, I have no right to enforce my taste on them.

People don't care about those no releated to them and even less about those they don't agree or who are different.

You don't speak for all people. Certainly not me.

I'm sorry that you don't grasp that, but not everyone believes the same as you.

You don't feel sorry for him

Oh, I forgot I was sharing my brain with another person! Silly me!

it feels more like you are trying to moral high ground over the other person, as if somehow they were not doing something the proper way or not getting the full expiriance.

Perhaps it feels that way to you, but it is most assuredly not. I think I've made myself rather clear by stating that regardless how I feel on the matter, I encourage people to find enjoyment however they like, because their experiences are valid. I only ask that they extend the same virtue.

Coming from a 0% tournament, 100% "casual" player on why I don't talk about my "casual" experiences on a web forum:

I simply don't care for the feedback loop that exists on the internet. I'll share stories and experiences, but at the end of the day... how we play our games is our business We have fun regardless of Dakka's involvement, so why involve Dakka when all they're going to do is flame us for making subpar decisions? Or laugh at us for finding ways to give the win to the other player (via painting rules in close games, or some other goofy solution to give another player a hard-earned W). Or, god forbid, playing a little under your competition to get them that extra supply they wanted to field the new beefy unit, or the experience to get a battle honor they've been clamoring for?

Dakka cannot provide insight or enjoyment for our experience, and sharing some of the cool things we do with each other with an online community only invites that negative element of the community to blast everything we do in the spirit of having fun with each other. So at the end of the day... there just isn't any value in sharing, especially when the online topic focuses so much on eviscerating each other with ruthless lists and playing with tactics that assume the other player is as devolved of morals and ethics as we ourselves are.

The social contract doesn't exist in online spaces, that's just the internet. I think there should be one, but until the community is ready to accept that people play differently than they do... or they play for different reasons... then the garage hammer crowd is going to continue having a good time far away from these sorts of places

Purifying Tempest wrote:


The social contract doesn't exist in online spaces, that's just the internet.

I think if the 21st century has taught us anything, it's that there's basically no limit to the sociopathy of 'online'. No cause is so virtuous, no person so intellectually rigorous, no act or opinion so unforgivably abhorrent that the inherent sociopathy of the anonymous internet can't turn it to utter garbage.

But hey, it makes money, and as long as it makes money, it ain't a-changin'.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Here is a honest-to-god casual game question.

Would you play someone who showed up with a Vigilus detachment? They are not allowed in games played out of the GT pack thingy but they remain viable in other situations (including non-GT-pack Matched Play if I am not mistaken).

Sure, why wouldn't I?
You want to make it "legal"? Then we'll just say we're playing Open - with 99.9999% of the matched play rules + Vig, + a GT mission.

Who's comparing 40k to sports? I do Warhammer because it isn't sports. Sports is exercise and exercise is pain.

Karol wrote:

For the fun of playing it? Absolutely. When I play a physical game, I'm mostly playing it for the excuse to socialise, to stretch my legs, to bond over a mutual activity.
I don't care who wins.

Then that is not sport. sports are played to win, every trainer will tell you that first day of sports school or training camp.

It's really not. If that's how you play 40k, that's your way of playing, but it's not the only, or even the proper, way to play.

If majority of people play the game within one rule set, then the rule set is the reality. It is like saying that you will try to play sports out side of control of IOC. you do that you automatically don't do sports, you play and playing ain't sport.

But even if you were right, and matched play was not the proper way to play, which kind of rises the question of all the books and rules being printed and not being free, there is still the majority rule. If majority does something in a specific way, then it is official and good. And non of the background activities releated to w40k are required to play the game. Just like do sports you don't even need to read and write, heck I have seen schools have players who didn't even spoke polish or russian, but one can't really argue with a 1,85 120kg 16 year old in the youth division.

It's a turn of phrase. I can be sorry for what someone else is lacking. I can be sorry that my friends might not share the same tastes as me, because I feel that they are missing something that I deem valuable. They might not share that same value, but I can still lament their lack of something I see as valuable.

But why say it, if it isn't true. People don't care about those no releated to them and even less about those they don't agree or who are different. You don't feel sorry for him, it feels more like you are trying to moral high ground over the other person, as if somehow they were not doing something the proper way or not getting the full expiriance. It is like starting an argument with , when I grew up I started to do this, as if hinting that before the actions were those of a child and immature, and there for wrong.

Your perception of how things work is not reality.

 Blndmage wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
What about someone having a themed army, that's not Battleforged, so no dynasties/etc, that is looking for a pickup game at standard points levels (500, 1000, 2000)?

They're sacrificing a lot mechanically to run what they want.

I think Matched Play requires Battle Forged armies. Trying to visualize a themed army that is not organized into Detachments?

I am not saying I would refuse the game, but for pickup games Matched Play with Battle Forge is the standard I prefer. Variety is good, though, so I suppose if the list was intriguing I’d give it a go? There is always Open Play.

I've actually got a theme throughout my collection, which I had to shift as I couldn't run it back in 4th.

My Necrons are built around the earliest stages of an awakening tomb: Scarabs, Tomb Spyders, Tomb Stalkers and Sentinels, maybe some Sentry Pylons.

There's no HQ that fits. Since then, with the reboot, and more so the recent Codex, there's options that will work, but still mean I can't run a slumbering Tomb. I have to, at the minimum have 1 awake Necron, and can never run all 54 bases of Scarabs.

Honestly, with the current edition not being Battleforged means no CP, no Strats, let alone losing some special rules, I can't think of a list I can make, that's wouldn't struggle without those.

Ok - If you were at our FLGS 40k Saturday when we get back to pick up games and you said “‘I have this unbound yet themed army” I would break out my Open War deck and we’d have a game. I would park my Stratagems etc. Having said that, my preference on a given Saturday would be Matched Play GT 2020 pack. Open for different styles, though, to keep things fresh and also widen our community! If it was a pre- arranged game I would try to come up with an opposing force that would fit the theme (some kind of exploration force). That’s not a pick up game, but just putting that out there.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Here is a honest-to-god casual game question.

Would you play someone who showed up with a Vigilus detachment? They are not allowed in games played out of the GT pack thingy but they remain viable in other situations (including non-GT-pack Matched Play if I am not mistaken).

Why wouldn't I?

ccs wrote:
Your perception of how things work is not reality.

I'm pretty sure that Karol goes to a school focused on sports as a means to get students into post-secondary education via sports scholarships. So it very likely is - or recently was - a major part of his reality.

Posters here are quick to assume that a middle-class version of life is everybody else's baseline and that simply isn't true.

Good discussion guys! I have the two instigators in the thread on ignore it seems (lots of replies to Canadian 5th and Karol) so I'll let the discussion continue ongoing, but I think we're getting lots of insights about casual play.

1) It's difficult to discuss on a forum for 2 reasons: forums aren't a conducive medium to the sort of discussion necessary, and forumgoers are often hostile or at least unhelpful when discussing casual play.

2) Casual play has a variety of meanings, ranging from "indifferent" to "non-competitive" and no one has really agreed with anyone else's definition that I've seen (except me and Sgt. Smudge )

3) Dakka DOES discuss casual play sometimes (e.g. the Proposed Rules forum)

4) Competitive play offers more to talk about than casual play.

Did I miss any?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

ccs wrote:
Your perception of how things work is not reality.

I'm pretty sure that Karol goes to a school focused on sports as a means to get students into post-secondary education via sports scholarships. So it very likely is - or recently was - a major part of his reality.

Posters here are quick to assume that a middle-class version of life is everybody else's baseline and that simply isn't true.

That doesn't change the fact that his perception of how a great many things in the world actually work - what's a sport, why people do things, people not caring about one another, or even how 40k is generally played - is inaccurate.
Sure, some of it might be somewhat accurate to his exact local. But overall? It is certainly the limited understanding of a child.

Pretty much sums it up.

Casual is best done with friends/like-minded players, in person. It just doesn't translate well to 1's & 0's.

ccs wrote:
That doesn't change the fact that his perception of how a great many things in the world actually work - what's a sport, why people do things, people not caring about one another, or even how 40k is generally played - is inaccurate.
Sure, some of it might be somewhat accurate to his exact local. But overall? It is certainly the limited understanding of a child.

Anything done at the highest level values winning at all costs over anything else. The world is a ruthless place where all the major players play zero-sum games.

Microsoft ruined many other small companies by strangling them in the cradle the moment it was large enough that it could afford million-dollar settlements and they could barely afford to show up in court. Every single sports league has had repeated scandals about cheating that manifest in everything from PEDs to literally hacking another team's computers to steal scouting or financial data. Even in beer leagues, there is often one team that just takes the game way more seriously than the rest and wins by playing in a way the other teams may not find fun.

It is human nature to compete. If it wasn't we'd never have developed the technology and social structure that we have.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Anything done at the highest level values winning at all costs over anything else.

'It's only a sport if you value winning because professional sports players only value winning and this is somehow relevant'.

Yeah no.

"Cheating and breaking the law is ok if you win" is a spicy take. I mean it's a depressingly accurate one but still.

 Gert wrote:
"Cheating and breaking the law is ok if you win" is a spicy take. I mean it's a depressingly accurate one but still.

"Doing the maximum to win without incurring penalties which would forfeit said win."

Aka, do whatever you can but either don't get caught cheating, or cheat in a way such that the penalty (such as a fine, etc.) Doesn't stop you from still winning.

Canadian 5th 798035 11115022 wrote:
Anything done at the highest level values winning at all costs over anything else. The world is a ruthless place where all the major players play zero-sum games.

One more reason not to emulate or celebrate 'high level values' of ruthless bastards. Plenty other people worth looking up to instead.

Because some arsehole does it is no reason for me to do it.

Competition can be fine. Push 'we're better than those people' too far and you have problems.

We're not talking about working for a Corporation, we're talking about playing Warhammer.

Aaaannnnd goodbye thread.