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 Ravajaxe wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Lol, did they actually, really revert Abhor back to its original ridiculous numbers, after having fixed it 6 months ago because it was so obviously broken?

Edit: No, no they didn't, at least not in the English version. It's 3VP per psyker character, and 2 per psyker unit.

Psychic ritual not having to be done by the same psyker three times also makes it much better, even if it maxes out at only 12 points. Though you still can't build around it because it's hard-countered by anyone with a 4+ dispel strat; whichever designer thought it was a good idea to allow those to be used on psychic actions really needs to be smacked with a large fish.

They seem to have reverted abhor the wich into the original numbers (5 & 3) in the french version. But I have just seen an english version and the numbers are indeed 3 and 2 like in the FAQ'ed 2020 document.
I can't belive they can feth up like that. In the french book, they seem to have copy / pasted the CA 2020 translated text !

Do you really expect them to re-translate everything? That would mean new wordings and confusion over whether things that were meant to not be changed have changed because of translation differences. I'm more worried when the English version is bunk and translated versions are right.

Quasistellar wrote:
Morven Vahl is a steal at 265 points. For reference, Guilleman is 380.

Called it.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Swarmy is down 30. So should off-set one Dimachareon at least, if you run that list. If you run two, you need to find 20 points.

Still surprised a Dima doesn't cost a CP like the Marine FW stuff does.


Abhor the Witch should maybe be a faction-specific secondary for running mono Black Templars or Khorne Daemonkin, but not really a secondary for everyone, IMO.

Martial Legacy has nothing to do with balance. It's a poorly implemented lore thing, that's why it only hits marines.

On a related note: All Imperial Guard super heavy tanks down 40 PPM. Now I really want to see the CSM fw points.

Edit: CSM leaks from B&C:

Cultists down 1 PPM to 5 PPM

Chosen down 1 PPM to 14 PPM (the same as standard CSM, weird)

Venom Crawler down 20 PPM

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Cultists down 1 PPM to 5 PPM

Chosen down 1 PPM to 14 PPM (the same as standard CSM, weird)

Venom Crawler down 20 PPM

Oh lord, Thousand Sons Cultists are still 6 pts/model if I recall correctly. The Chosen thing makes perfect sense, it's the value of obsec vs +1 atk and options. Pretty equal. What's weird is that they aren't both either 12 or 13 pts/model.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Cultists down 1 PPM to 5 PPM

Chosen down 1 PPM to 14 PPM (the same as standard CSM, weird)

Venom Crawler down 20 PPM

Oh lord, Thousand Sons Cultists are still 6 pts/model if I recall correctly. The Chosen thing makes perfect sense, it's the value of obsec vs +1 atk and options. Pretty equal. What's weird is that they aren't both either 12 or 13 pts/model.

TSons cultists in the pdf are 6pts
TSons cultists in the book are 5pts

Why GW didn't change their cost in the pdf like they did with Land Raiders is a mystery...

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Cultists down 1 PPM to 5 PPM

Chosen down 1 PPM to 14 PPM (the same as standard CSM, weird)

Venom Crawler down 20 PPM

Oh lord, Thousand Sons Cultists are still 6 pts/model if I recall correctly. The Chosen thing makes perfect sense, it's the value of obsec vs +1 atk and options. Pretty equal. What's weird is that they aren't both either 12 or 13 pts/model.

TSons cultists in the pdf are 6pts
TSons cultists in the book are 5pts

Why GW didn't change their cost in the pdf like they did with Land Raiders is a mystery...

Maybe they are getting nerfed or limited the same way DG Cultists are in the TS codex, but Black Legion has way better Cultists than Thousand Sons so it looks like a mishap again. We have to remember GW nerfed Ogryn instead of Bullgryn when Bullgryn were taking tournaments and Ogryn were gak.

What would any GW release be without some obviously nonsensical errors? People might not even believe it's a genuine product.

yukishiro1 wrote:
What would any GW release be without some obviously nonsensical errors? People might not even believe it's a genuine product.

sanguine40k wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Morven Vahl is a steal at 265 points. For reference, Guilleman is 380.

Called it.

Once they've sold one to each SoB player they'll eventually nerf it.

 Aenar wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Morven Vahl is a steal at 265 points. For reference, Guilleman is 380.

Called it.

Once they've sold one to each SoB player they'll eventually nerf it.

Why? She's not anywhere near nerf territory. What Guilleman costs is irrelevant, comparing their physical statlines tells you very little about either. Both are far too expensive for the body alone to be worth anywhere near their points value, it's how they function as force multipliers that really matter.

Frankly, you can do what Morven does for 160pts cheaper with a Palantine and a BR canoness and you can do even more than what Morven does with the Triumph and a Palantine.

Unless she's got like a baller set warlord trait, she's mostly a display piece at 265.

Very annoying that none of these folks that keep taking pictures of the MFM don't seem to be interested in snapping one of the CSM or loyalists fw pages. Very, very, annoying. Nothing on Orks yet either?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Very annoying that none of these folks that keep taking pictures of the MFM don't seem to be interested in snapping one of the CSM or loyalists fw pages. Very, very, annoying. Nothing on Orks yet either?

What does it matter? It'll be out in a week anyways and then we'll get an errata a week or two after that.

ERJAK wrote:

 Aenar wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Morven Vahl is a steal at 265 points. For reference, Guilleman is 380.

Called it.

Once they've sold one to each SoB player they'll eventually nerf it.

Why? She's not anywhere near nerf territory. What Guilleman costs is irrelevant, comparing their physical statlines tells you very little about either. Both are far too expensive for the body alone to be worth anywhere near their points value, it's how they function as force multipliers that really matter.

Frankly, you can do what Morven does for 160pts cheaper with a Palantine and a BR canoness and you can do even more than what Morven does with the Triumph and a Palantine.

Unless she's got like a baller set warlord trait, she's mostly a display piece at 265.

If I had a model with that statline, those weapons and those buff auras for 265 it would be the very first one I put in my list, every time. To me it looks bonkers, undercosted under 300.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Very annoying that none of these folks that keep taking pictures of the MFM don't seem to be interested in snapping one of the CSM or loyalists fw pages. Very, very, annoying. Nothing on Orks yet either?

What does it matter? It'll be out in a week anyways and then we'll get an errata a week or two after that.

Try 4, because GW has covid issues....

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Very annoying that none of these folks that keep taking pictures of the MFM don't seem to be interested in snapping one of the CSM or loyalists fw pages. Very, very, annoying. Nothing on Orks yet either?

What does it matter? It'll be out in a week anyways and then we'll get an errata a week or two after that.

Try 4, because GW has covid issues....

Or more. Still no FAQ for the Charadon book.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Very annoying that none of these folks that keep taking pictures of the MFM don't seem to be interested in snapping one of the CSM or loyalists fw pages. Very, very, annoying. Nothing on Orks yet either?

What does it matter? It'll be out in a week anyways and then we'll get an errata a week or two after that.

Try 4, because GW has covid issues....

Or more. Still no FAQ for the Charadon book.

Homeoffice for the ruleswriters must be difficult, considering their collective efforts (of ignoring whatever the other dude does) are hindered. Oh wait... Considering DE and Their little cut content DLC, no it wouldn't change a thing. Maybee they could use the time productively they would've wasted via commuting to update some other factions rules... no wait. that would mean 2 W csm and GK before their dexes.... can't have that, must frustrate these players to buy into another army.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah it's just fundamentally a stupid secondary. That they still haven't realized after a whole year is a real indictment of their development process. If you couldn't use deny strats on psychic secondaries there might be justification for a special anti-psyker secondary, but the fact that you can makes them impossible to plan around, so there's no compelling reason to have an anti-psyker secondary either.

All the armies that "spam" psykers do so because they have NO CHOICE. Psykers by their nature are anti spam.

If I play tsons my opponent gets 6vp for killing ANY HQ CHOICE IN MY ARMY. its just asinine.

 the_scotsman wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah it's just fundamentally a stupid secondary. That they still haven't realized after a whole year is a real indictment of their development process. If you couldn't use deny strats on psychic secondaries there might be justification for a special anti-psyker secondary, but the fact that you can makes them impossible to plan around, so there's no compelling reason to have an anti-psyker secondary either.

All the armies that "spam" psykers do so because they have NO CHOICE. Psykers by their nature are anti spam.

If I play tsons my opponent gets 6vp for killing ANY HQ CHOICE IN MY ARMY. its just asinine.

I see the flaws, but at the same time it is a balancing secondary that keeps psychic army from grabbing at a secondary with no opposition. Now, more and more armies have access to a 4+ deny for 1CP, but those are usually locked.

What I'd like to see is Abhor move to 'Eliminate the Enemy' or 'No Mercy' to make the choices less clear cut.

Now, Pierce was mentioned to be changed so that one is likely the wrong text we're looking at as well. But Ritual is much easier now. A 70 point shaman casting a WC3 spell 3 times in a 5 turn game for 12 points? That's pretty good. Interrogate I have to think about a little, but TS could do that one and be outside normal deny range.

Back to Abhor - it really comes down to the opponent needing to effectively table me to score full points. It also encourages me to build bigger units, which may be slightly intentional to keep MSU spam casting out of the mix.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I've finally seen the official and Pierce is the same. Abhor is 3 and 2. Interrogate I would feel is a good pick if you're facing an army like DG the leans on a lot of elite characters that can't hang back for support.

Psychic secondaries can't be used against any army that has a 4+ deny strat. If you take a psychic secondary vs an army that has a 4+ deny, you are making a bad choice 99% of the time. You also cannot take psychic secondaries against an army that has psykers itself, except in very rare circumstances. In both cases, psychic secondaries are almost always a trap, because you are relying on RNG to score points, and that's fundamentally not a competitive choice. It may work out for you, because sometimes bad choices do. But that doesn't mean it was a good choice.

So it isn't balancing anything. It isn't balancing against skew, because you can't skew with psykers - either your army is a psyker-heavy army or it isn't. It isn't balancing against the psychic secondaries, because nobody can build around those because they can't be taken against maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the game. So it's just straight-up punishing certain armies for no real reason. It's fundamentally not much different from having a secondary that gives you 2VP for each T'au unit you kill. It's just dumb.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Psychic secondaries can't be used against any army that has a 4+ deny strat. If you take a psychic secondary vs an army that has a 4+ deny, you are making a bad choice 99% of the time. You also cannot take psychic secondaries against an army that has psykers itself, except in very rare circumstances. In both cases, psychic secondaries are almost always a trap, because you are relying on RNG to score points, and that's fundamentally not a competitive choice. It may work out for you, because sometimes bad choices do. But that doesn't mean it was a good choice.

So it isn't balancing anything. It isn't balancing against skew, because you can't skew with psykers - either your army is a psyker-heavy army or it isn't. It isn't balancing against the psychic secondaries, because nobody can build around those because they can't be taken against maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the game. So it's just straight-up punishing certain armies for no real reason. It's fundamentally not much different from having a secondary that gives you 2VP for each T'au unit you kill. It's just dumb.

Are people going to dumpster their only deny for a 50/50 chance at blocking points? Let alone at least 3CP to make sure they don't fully succeed the whole game....on top of letting the opponents best spells ride?

I don't think so. Maybe if you go veil and they block a cast, but that's about it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Are people going to dumpster their only deny for a 50/50 chance at blocking points?

Yes, they most certainly will, assuming both you and they are a competent player. Because if you are competent, you aren't going to be giving them a chance to use their deny strat on a key power that really has to go off if they know you have a 50/50 to deny it, and using it on a key power that has to go off is the only possible use of it that would make you think twice before using it to stop them from getting points.

The problem with psychic actions is because they are tied to specific points on the table and/or your opponent's models, realistically you cannot do them outside range of the deny strats. This makes deny strats far more useful for shutting down psychic actions than for shutting down powers.

Psychic actions are useful in very narrow situations, but they have so many ridiculous conditions tied to them - have to use all the psyker's casts, can be denied, can be strated, are tied to models you have a very limited number of in your army and can't be done if you lose those models, have to be in specific areas of the board or have to be close to the opponent's characters but not killing all their characters because then you zero yourself out, etc etc - that they are never something you can build around doing reliably. And a secondary that isn't reliable to build around is worth much less in this game than one you can build around.

I dunno, never having played against such a psyker heavy list, but if you gave me a 1CP 50/50 of "deny your enemy 2/3VP" every turn I'd bank 5CP every game just for that.

 Castozor wrote:
I dunno, never having played against such a psyker heavy list, but if you gave me a 1CP 50/50 of "deny your enemy 2/3VP" every turn I'd bank 5CP every game just for that.

Absolutely, and really it'll be more like 3CP in that case, because by T4 you're quite likely to have either denied them enough times and/or killed enough of their psyker characters that they can't realistically finish it, or failed your 4+ enough times that they already got it.

And of course in reality, you spend 0CP, because simply the threat of being able to do it means your opponent can't choose that secondary.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
I dunno, never having played against such a psyker heavy list, but if you gave me a 1CP 50/50 of "deny your enemy 2/3VP" every turn I'd bank 5CP every game just for that.

Absolutely, and really it'll be more like 3CP in that case, because by T4 you're quite likely to have either denied them enough times and/or killed enough of their psyker characters that they can't realistically finish it, or failed your 4+ enough times that they already got it.

And of course in reality, you spend 0CP, because simply the threat of being able to do it means your opponent can't choose that secondary.

You won't be saying that when Draigo is about to lay out Inner Fire on a key unit or your obsec is about to get turned off. It will take 5 CP for a total 50/50 chance to prevent 5 points. Two will pass. Two will get denied. One is 50/50.

If someone is committing 5CP to stop 5 points I'm going to be way ahead in that resource game.

That obviously depends on the psychic secondaries being chosen, but if you prevent Ritual enough times it's 12VP down the drain for you. Well worth the CP. You're also assuming you're keeping all your psykers alive for all 5 turns, I might just need to try for 3 turns with how lethal the game is these days.
All in all the psychic Secondaries are just terribly designed compared to the rest of them. What others can be so easily denied? Raise the banners? Chances are if you lose your backfield banners you are losing the game already. Behind the lines? If you are so easily denied deepstrike/movement you chose the wrong secondary to begin with.

 Castozor wrote:
That obviously depends on the psychic secondaries being chosen, but if you prevent Ritual enough times it's 12VP down the drain for you. Well worth the CP. You're also assuming you're keeping all your psykers alive for all 5 turns, I might just need to try for 3 turns with how lethal the game is these days.
All in all the psychic Secondaries are just terribly designed compared to the rest of them. What others can be so easily denied? Raise the banners? Chances are if you lose your backfield banners you are losing the game already. Behind the lines? If you are so easily denied deepstrike/movement you chose the wrong secondary to begin with.

Ritual is changed. It is no longer all or nothing. It is now 3/7/12 ( and it is not locked to one model ).

Lol, I would most certainly be saying that if Draigo is inner firing me, because if that is happening that's not a game I'm worried about, it's a game I've realistically already won twice - first, in the list building stage, and second because if Draigo is in a position to inner fire me, that's right where I want him, and definitely not where you want him.

Your comment re: it being 5CP for 5VP shows a big misunderstanding of how averages shake out in the real world and how games of 40k go. If on T5 your opponent still has characters in position to do psychic secondaries, you have already either won or lost that game (usually lost) at least 95 out of 100 times. The amount of times you'd be spending a CP on T5 to stop a psychic action is miniscule - though if you were, you'd certainly be doing it, because at that point it's literally a 4+ to win the game, otherwise why are you bothering, and why on earth wouldn't you do that? So if you ever get to a position where spending that 5th CP makes sense, it is literally because the game is riding on it. So that would be the best CP you ever spent in the history of your 40k career.

Eh guess I should have gone back and read all the changes. Seems that one might actually be worth a look now for armies with cheap psykers. Still part 2 and 3 can be blocked by a single cp/deny denying you 4/5 VP each time.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Lol, I would most certainly be saying that if Draigo is inner firing me, because if that is happening that's not a game I'm worried about, it's a game I've realistically already won twice - first, in the list building stage, and second because if Draigo is in a position to inner fire me, that's right where I want him, and definitely not where you want him.

Your comment re: it being 5CP for 5VP shows a big misunderstanding of how averages shake out in the real world and how games of 40k go. If on T5 your opponent still has characters in position to do psychic secondaries, you have already either won or lost that game (usually lost) at least 95 out of 100 times. The amount of times you'd be spending a CP on T5 to stop a psychic action is miniscule - though if you were, you'd certainly be doing it, because at that point it's literally a 4+ to win the game, otherwise why are you bothering, and why on earth wouldn't you do that? So if you ever get to a position where spending that 5th CP makes sense, it is literally because the game is riding on it. So that would be the best CP you ever spent in the history of your 40k career.

This, I feel, is really oversimplified. It will be interesting to see what secondaries pop up in the near future nonetheless.

Psychic ritual is definitely the best of a bad bunch now. But it's still a bad pick against anyone with a deny strat almost all the time, because leaving it up to RNG whether you score a secondary is not a competitive choice, and there's a wholly plausible chance you get only 2 from it if you do pick it against someone with a 4+ deny strat.

Competitive players don't leave it up to RNG whether they score 2 or 12 on a secondary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


This, I feel, is really oversimplified.

You are welcome to feel it's oversimplified, but that's a content-free comment to which there is no meaningful response, essentially akin to "nuh uh, you're wrong," which people usually make because they have nothing else to say. So I assume the discussion is over.