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I think a 100pt unit with 40 str 4 (str 3 but opponent have -1 to T)attacks is already a fair price. It is also 20 wounds on 20 bodies that have a 6+++ that can come back in 2 ways. They are also fearless so you need to kill all of them. Just killing 5-10 won't cause extra casualties.

With the reroll strat they put out more like 10-12 MW and 12 or so normal wounds on a t4 unit.

I don't think 20 of them in a normal list is much of a problem even though their potential is pretty silly.

I have seen a guy at the club run a 100 of them for just 500pts. With the strat for extra movement and the guy that gives + to move as well they aren't as slow as you might think. Shooty armies with lots of dmg 1 low ap shots are fine but the melee armies can really suffer against them when there are 100+ of them screening out 1500pts of characters and terminators. Especially if they go first and can advance up the table forcing the opponent to get bad trades. One unit won't win against a 10 man VV squad but 2 units have rather good odds of doing it for way less points. If he moves around the fight last thing and wipes the first unit the second unit will still kill over half the squad when they charge.

We aren't even talking about Terminus Est poxwalkers here. lol I think if the opening poster saw a Terminus Est army of poxwalkers in action, he would cry so much harder.

Wow... all poxwalkers that can move 7 inches because of a strategem!

Wow... a strategem that can take a killed poxwalker unit and bring it back to life with full unit strength!

Lets conveniently forget that Terminus Est lists forgo all vehicles. And that up till now, we haven't seen any Terminus Est list win touneys quite yet either.

Beardedragon wrote:
we're never going to agree. so ill agree to disagree.

You wanna talk about strategies i wanna talk over performing CP for what you pay for. The stratagem over performs compared to what you pay for it.

It doesn't overperform unless you make playing errors. Stratagems punishing bad plays are perfectly fine.

Do you know which 1 CP stratagem can deal vastly more damage than mutant strains if you make dumb plays? Overwatch.

Flying headbutt also over performs even if there are ways to minimize your losses as well. the potential is too high. Flying headbutt is clearly more crazy in terms of efficiency than Mutant strain, and it can break more games than mutant strain ever will, but its still way too efficient for what you pay.

The difference between the two stratagems is that 'Eadbut is on a unit with fly moving 60" and done in the movement phase.
Strain is on an infantry unit moving 4" and requires you to attack in combat.

That is that. If people wanna argue that a low tier unit should be able to break T8 units then thats their deal i guess.

"Low tier" is something that only exists in your head. 20 poxwalkers are 100 points - that's the price of an ork buggy, a carnifex, a dread and plenty other units that can easily feth up a T8 unit that gets too close.
Not to mention that there are usually no T8 units affected by exploding poxwalkers.

Ive never met a DG player in real life that looked at this stratagem and said: this is meh, and cant overperform at all". And i play with someone who attend and do very well in tournements with DG.

False authority/appeal to authority logical fallacy.
Or, in other words - their opinion is no more valuable than yours. And while this is unpopular in certain parts of the world, opinions can be objectively wrong.

I guess theres a difference in how people see balance in this game. Clearly people i meet who do tournements have one opinion, and you guys where some of you do tournements, thinks something different.

Balance has nothing to do with this. You just want a hard cap on this stratagem so you don't have to worry about interacting with your opponent.
Or maybe you just don't want to admit that you are wrong because you have gone to far down this rabbit's hole and people are now piling on you.

In the end a stratagem which is good when used properly, that allows a lot of counter-play and severely punishes bad plays is about as perfectly balanced as it can be.
The one and only criticism I would accept is that it can be very swingy and thus accidentally decide games when six poxwalkers nuke four terminators.

"The one and only criticism I would accept is that it can be very swingy and thus accidentally decide games when six poxwalkers nuke four terminators."

Lol, watch me roll 12 sixes out of 12 rolls and win the game! If you have that kind of luck, maybe you should reserve it for when you are at a casino. lol

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Its not a crutch that DG relies on in order to win. I am not even sure what kind of cap you want. Given the heavy limitations and it being so situational. So, based on that, sure, I can go ahead and say give it a 6 MW cap. Would that make you happy? Not as if I am the one deciding these things anyway.

I don't think I've ever done that many MW with that stratagem to trigger that cap. Best I remember was 5.

And hey, if you hate mortal wounds, have heard of our lord and savior Seven-Fold Blessed Malignant Plaguecaster with Torrent of Torrent of Putrefaction casting Curse of the Leper and Smite?

He even is 5 points less than the pox walkers.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Scarabs have a 1 cp stratagem that kills a 15 point scarab and does 3 mortal wounds max. Also a cool stratagem. Clearly less effective than the pox walker stratagem though - and technically costs more. That is my issue.

In terms of points you lose to use it, they're pretty much equivalent - assuming Mutant Strain alone, and the maximum possible number of attacks, we're talking an average of 6-7MW dealt and taken by the Poxwalkers, so they're losing 5-6 Poxwalkers in return. It still works out at roughly 5pts/MW.

Having said that, I don't know the Scarab strat, as I don't have that book, and I noticed it caps at 3MW - how might it do fewer?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It makes me think there is some strange concept about zombie effectiveness that has gone around GW.

Would you liken it, perhaps, to a virus?

+ + +

Just for the silly outrage in this thread, it seems Mutant Strain was worth printing.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
"The one and only criticism I would accept is that it can be very swingy and thus accidentally decide games when six poxwalkers nuke four terminators."

Lol, watch me roll 12 sixes out of 12 rolls and win the game! If you have that kind of luck, maybe you should reserve it for when you are at a casino. lol

You clearly never have seen me shoot a SSAG.

Turn 1: 2 shots, 0 hits
Turn 2: 11 shots, 7 hits, 0 wounds
Turn 3: 50 damage and 20 mortal wounds for that LRBT

Also, compared to plague zombies poxwalkers even with all their buffs are tame..

 Jidmah wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
"The one and only criticism I would accept is that it can be very swingy and thus accidentally decide games when six poxwalkers nuke four terminators."

Lol, watch me roll 12 sixes out of 12 rolls and win the game! If you have that kind of luck, maybe you should reserve it for when you are at a casino. lol

You clearly never have seen me shoot a SSAG.

Turn 1: 2 shots, 0 hits
Turn 2: 11 shots, 7 hits, 0 wounds
Turn 3: 50 damage and 20 mortal wounds for that LRBT

I can relate! I played a AM player in a game before. One turn his LRBT failed to kill my chaos spawn unit despite firing everything into it. @_@ Then the very next turn, his other LRBT fires into my deathshroud unit and obliterates it in one firing phase! lol.

I should make a thread about how chaos spawn are OP and deathshrouds are crap because of this one incident. lol (I am joking obviously).

 Jidmah wrote:

I don't think I've ever done that many MW with that stratagem to trigger that cap. Best I remember was 5.

I have managed to get a decent amount of MW(12) on poxwalkers, but only when I run Harbingers, spend 2 CP for the Mutant Reroll combo, and my opponent managed to get in the middle of a fresh poxwalker group so all of them could attack. Basically once or twice in over 30 games. Usually without rerolls I average around 3-5.

Most of the time I'm just so low on CP and can't spend it on Mutant Strain for a Hail Mary.

I am starting to believe that it is the OP's kind of whining is what got cultists hit by multiple nerf bats so that they are in their current sad state. Someone influential at Gamesworkshop got their favourite unit obliterated by a big unit of cultists spamming multiple strategems and went ballistic.

"How can such a low tier unit kill my 250 point insert favourite unit! Cultists need to be nerfed to the ground!!!!"

(Lets not forget that even when they were 5 points each, a unit of 40 cultists cost 200 points... as much as a terminator squad. But hey, it doesn't matter! Cultists are low tier! They are scum! They don't deserve to do anything even when you mass 200 points of them amd stack multiple buffs on them!)

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am starting to believe that it is the OP's kind of whining is what got cultists hit by multiple nerf bats so that they are in their current sad state. Someone influential at Gamesworkshop got their favourite unit obliterated by a big unit of cultists spamming multiple strategems and went ballistic.

"How can such a low tier unit kill my 250 point insert favourite unit! Cultists need to be nerfed to the ground!!!!"

TBF the 30 slaanesh cultist bomb with votwl and tide to get within 12" range is still spicy....

And yes it's the same reasoning, good thing though , since all other Poxwalkers will become useless as they desere since they are clearly not death guard plaguemarine enough, just like cultists are not CSM enough which we can't have...

Eldenfirefly wrote:
And as one of the above poster mentioned. So, should we put a hard cap on burner bombers exploding for 10 to 20 mortal wounds all over an army? How about void raven bombers too ?

Yes, obviously you shouldn't deal 3MW for 1CP or 15MW for 1CP and a (possibly damaged) Burna-bommer. Make the Burna-bommer cheaper if it becomes overcosted without access to the Stratagems. Voidraven Bombers getting Stratagem-like damage without using a Stratagem is par for the course when it comes to the new Drukhari codex. It should hit a single unit like it used to for 2-7 MW.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
An analogy that came to my mind is the IG Cyclops demolition charge. For those not familiar with it: it can blow itself up and do 2D6 (blast) 9/-2/d3 BS4+ attacks to every unit within 6'' for 50 points. Theoretically that is hilariously strong for such a cheap unit if you get it within range of a couple of characters who all count as a seperate unit.

If you could pay 1CP to turn a Chimera into a Cyclops at any time then it'd be OP. If Poxwalkers cost 6 points and simply had this ability then it wouldn't be a problem, some people just don't like how seemingly random units benefit from relatively cheap Stratagems for the effect the Stratagem has. Why should Obliterators but not Demolishers benefit from Cacophony?

Its not a crutch that DG relies on in order to win. I am not even sure what kind of cap you want. Given the heavy limitations and it being so situational. So, based on that, sure, I can go ahead and say give it a 6 MW cap. Would that make you happy? Not as if I am the one deciding these things anyway.

6 would be a meaningless cap, it should be capped at 3 both ways. That's more mortal wounds than Scarabs cause for 1CP and less damage than Scarabs suffer for using the Stratagem. Make it a small niche thing that you will use once in a while when you come up against a unit that pays a lot for its wounds and that you plan on killing instead of a "why not?" Stratagem. "Why not?" Stratagems are underpriced. Other "Why not?" Stratagems include Cacophony, fight twice for Flayed Ones and Rotate Ion Shields.

If you nerf enough "Why not?" Stratagems then we might start seeing some other fluffy Stratagems get used like Boon of Chaos. Of course, any Stratagems that are worse than CP re-roll and such need to be buffed to be at least that good.

So its a question of image then! cultists and poxwalkers are seen as "low tier". So its ok for an "elite" tier unit to cost 120 points and do wonders, but even if you mass 180 points worth of cultists, they have to suck because they are "low tier".

Like, gamesworkshop should just discontinue cultists if that's their line of thinking. Would be much easier. And grots too...


Actually, on "why not" strategems. If you look at the trend of the newer books, GW seem to be trying to make more powerful strategems, and some priced at just 1 cp too. Not less powerful. So, I think you are going to be disappointed. GW wants us to use CP often, and less on rerolls and more on other strategems.

You have to compare 1 CP strategems to the universal reroll strategem. There are many games that are won or lost on a single reroll of a dice. And you can reroll that dice with 1 CP. Every other 1 CP strategem has to be comparable or at least not much worse, else people will just use all of their CP only on rerolls. And if thats the case, then why should GW bother coming out with 4 pages of strategems that people will never ever use.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

Can i not think one ability is over performing without needing to mention EVERY SINGLE OTHER OVER PERFORMING STRATAGEM in the game?. I dont NEED to mention every single over performing stratagem out there, im allowed to focus on one, which i did. So stop mentioning that something else is worse like wrath of mars or flying eadbutt.

Truth be told it just makes you look salty as people have been pointing out. You got owned in one game by not knowing the stratagem and it shows. Your sheer bias is also evident of the fact that you are salty. .

I have actually noticed that the people who get most upset about this stratagem are the ones who are caught in a gotcha moment. Everyone else just really don't care and just play around the unit.

yet another one who makes up reasons as to why i made this thread. I already wrote that the fact he used this stratagem had very little impact on why i made this topic or why i lost a game. It just reminded me that it could deal a lot of damage, more than what it was meant to for 1CP.

I can be wrong on whether the stratagem is balanced or not, but i cant be wrong on WHY i decided to make a thread. YOU need to stop pretending that you know why I made a specific thread, because you dont know.

What upsets me isnt the stratagem, nor that people disagree, its that people keep pretending that i made this thread because i got outplayed by this one stratagem (which didnt even happen), and that people constantly wanted to talk about strategies to avoid it, when all i inteded to talk about was whether you should get the amount of MWs that you can get, from 1CP. I accept now that people want to talk stratagies when talking stratagems before saying if they can be too cost efficient or not, but i still disagree on that point. I believe we can talk stratagem cost efficiency without strategies. But thats just me.

so truth be told back to you, you come off as an idiot who pretends he knows stuff about me that he doesnt and calls people salty for having been "outplayed" when that never happened. Pretends that he knows why ive made a specific thread, pretends that he knows that i dont know what happens if i charge in to poxwalkers with a gardenhose man nearby. There WAS no gotcha moment i well knowingly charged a battlewagon in to poxwalkers and fought last, took 8 MWs and that was that. Everything worked out fine, i could move forward and unload my units in the next round after which the poxies died.

So no, i was not taken by surprise by this stratagem, i knew exactly what he would do, and i knew exactly that i would hit last. I took a calculated risk and it still paid off for me because i got the objective the round after. I lost the match, but that was not related to those poxwalkers. The scenario just made me think, that paying 1CP to dealing MW on 6s when you can have that many hits, seemed over the top.


That

IS

that.

The thread was purely made on an efficiency basis for what you pay, contra what you get.
There is no other reason except for that one, that i made this thread. So stop pretending that i was somehow "outplayed" by this one stratagem. Sure i was outplayed, thats why i lost. But not by that one stratagem.

Learn to read, as i already wrote that it had close to no impact in my game that i lost. Stop making up your own reasons as to why i made a thread

Sorry, but your abject bias towards this singular unit and stratagem just clearly displays how annoyed you were that you were caught with your pants down. No amount of excuses can hide that. If you had made a general thread about mortal wound abilities/stratagems - like we see in AoS groups on a regular basis - I would maybe buy your arguments, but your hyperfocus on this singular unit that isn't even the high point of the codex just shows that you are quite angry and annoyed that you couldn't play the game how you wanted.

Here is the thing, I get how you feel. I have been taken in by gotcha moments and it is not a fun feeling. So strangely enough, I sympathize with that.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Learn to read, as i already wrote that it had close to no impact in my game that i lost. Stop making up your own reasons as to why i made a thread

Sorry, but your abject bias towards this singular unit and stratagem just clearly displays how annoyed you were that you were caught with your pants down. No amount of excuses can hide that. If you had made a general thread about mortal wound abilities/stratagems - like we see in AoS groups on a regular basis - I would maybe buy your arguments, but your hyperfocus on this singular unit that isn't even the high point of the codex just shows that you are quite angry and annoyed that you couldn't play the game how you wanted.

Here is the thing, I get how you feel. I have been taken in by gotcha moments and it is not a fun feeling. So strangely enough, I sympathize with that.

'

No im annoyed that people keep running in circles as to why ive made a thread.

THE 8 MORTAL WOUNDS DID NOT HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE fething GAME DUDE. I DIDNT LOSE BECAUSE OF IT! and YES im SALTY because people run in circles as to WHY ive made this thread. THATS why im salty. I find the stratagem over performing but right now? thats beside the point because its more fun to trash talk the OP by making up lies as to why he made a thread. I get angry because people cant read, or they can and just chose to make up their own reasons even after having read that the stratagem didnt have an impact anyway. People are apparently clairvoyants in this forum and knows more about what happened in MY game than i do.

its a thread about efficiency for what you pay for. I couldnt play the game the way i wanted? get out of here dude. Everything happened, in that engagement, that i had already accounted for, that i already figured would happen. Everything at that engagement, worked out fine. Yes losing 8 MW sucks but it didnt change anything, didnt even bracket my battlewagon.

I was not taken with my pants down, learn to read, jesus. Stop walking in circles pretending that you guys know why a thread has been made. Do i need to repeat myself or what?

The stratagem did NOT impact my loss of the game, what so ever. Its a thread i made PURELY out of efficiency of what you PAY contra what you GET.


I hope thats the last of it in terms of "why did OP make this thread, i wonder?". Why ive made a thread isnt even related to the thread itself.

Nah. I think mortal wound stratagems that require a more significant investment of resources should have a higher cap of damage that they can put down.

If you're fielding 20 poxwalkers, 20 hellions, 20 skitarii then I as your opponent enjoy an advantage in-game. I get max shots on all blast weapons I lob at that squad. You get one single unit instead of (usually) four units that can all secure different objectives and perform actions. If I hit them with a debuff, or a stratagem, or a power, or in some cases tie them in combat theyre ALL affected.

I'm fine with 1cp buying 4-5MW rather than the usual 2MW you generally get for stuff like "Have any unit in your army within grenade range" or "have any bolt weapon on the board anywhere as a marine player."

In fairness, the comparison to the scarab strat is slightly disingenuous since a unit of scarabs costs 45pts and can continue to get a consistent 2-3 MWs so long as at least one scarab is still alive. They also move 10" so far less situational.

Mutant strain's spike damage falls off dramatically as soon as you start to lose Poxies from the unit.

45pts of poxwalkers is the break point for comparison with scarabs as it will do 3MWs and kill 15pts of its own strength.

I just think neither strat is anywhere near being a problem tbh


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why did you even make the thread if you're not willing to take on board anything anybody has said to you?

We've tried to demonstrate why the strat isn't as strong as it might seem, we've tried to show you how easy it is to mitigate, we've also compared it to other strats and abilities to show there is at least some parity with other stuff in the game.

You've just been completely unwilling to engage and have now been ranting for five pages. Why wouldn't people surmise that your are just salty and blowing off steam?

I really think you should give it up because you're just coming across obnoxious.

Also, LOL@ "Low Tier Unit." This is like when that art of war stream came out with admech and people were moaning that *only* 14 skitarii were able to take out 4 Deathshroud Terminators, and it's like

OK, 14 skitarii...plus 150 points of buffing HQs....plus the army's warlord trait and relic acting on them...plus they spent 4CP....Hmmmmm seems like a lot of investment into that "low tier unit" right there, they probably SHOULD be able to remove as much gak as a 'high tier unit" with similar total costs...

Abaddon303 wrote:
In fairness, the comparison to the scarab strat is slightly disingenuous since a unit of scarabs costs 45pts and can continue to get a consistent 2-3 MWs so long as at least one scarab is still alive. They also move 10" so far less situational.

Mutant strain's spike damage falls off dramatically as soon as you start to lose Poxies from the unit.

45pts of poxwalkers is the break point for comparison with scarabs as it will do 3MWs and kill 15pts of its own strength.

I just think neither strat is anywhere near being a problem tbh

How situational a Stratagem is should not massively change how powerful it is. Otherwise, you get the "10 mortal wounds for 1CP once in a blue moon" Stratagem which "isn't unfair because on average it actually only deals 2 mortal wounds because you only use it once every 6 games". Even if a Stratagem is niche it can still be OP. Instead of having 30 Stratagems that come into play once every six games and cause 3MW worth of effect per CP invested you could just have 5 Stratagems you use every game that cause 2MW worth of effect per CP invested.

The vast majority of DG players are using Poxwalkers, increasing their points cost by even 1 would hit them way too hard, but they're a solid unit with an occasionally slightly OP Stratagem. The game would be better if the Stratagem was max 3 MW both ways. I agree with all the posters saying that this is so low on the list that the discussion is barely worth having. At least I learned about a couple of Stratagems today.

What GW does or wants for the game isn't always for the best, they wanted Scouts moved to Elites and given the same points increase as the better, more expensive Primaris units, they wanted faction-specific secondary objectives available in the competitive mission pack, they wanted free always-on faction bonuses via chapter tactics, they want 60+% win rate Drukhari, they nerfed Ogryn instead of Bullgryn, they wanted to errata the rules for characters 3 times I think? I am not exactly sold on GW's design philosophy.

 vict0988 wrote:
6 would be a meaningless cap, it should be capped at 3 both ways. That's more mortal wounds than Scarabs cause for 1CP and less damage than Scarabs suffer for using the Stratagem. Make it a small niche thing that you will use once in a while when you come up against a unit that pays a lot for its wounds and that you plan on killing instead of a "why not?" Stratagem. "Why not?" Stratagems are underpriced. Other "Why not?" Stratagems include Cacophony, fight twice for Flayed Ones and Rotate Ion Shields.

If you nerf enough "Why not?" Stratagems then we might start seeing some other fluffy Stratagems get used like Boon of Chaos. Of course, any Stratagems that are worse than CP re-roll and such need to be buffed to be at least that good.

The only thing such a cap would do is reward bad players charging all his models into engagement range of an unwounded blob of poxwalkers that is supported by a character and a relic.

You might as well cap all damage to 3, so a unit of thunder hammer terminators can't kill the rhino I charge into them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Why did you even make the thread if you're not willing to take on board anything anybody has said to you?

We've tried to demonstrate why the strat isn't as strong as it might seem, we've tried to show you how easy it is to mitigate, we've also compared it to other strats and abilities to show there is at least some parity with other stuff in the game.

You've just been completely unwilling to engage and have now been ranting for five pages. Why wouldn't people surmise that your are just salty and blowing off steam?

I really think you should give it up because you're just coming across obnoxious.

I think his last post at least came across in a way that he accepts what we are trying to say, but is still pissed about how people try to imply that he has some underlying motive besides just venting about how he hates poxwalkers.

Abaddon303 wrote:
In fairness, the comparison to the scarab strat is slightly disingenuous since a unit of scarabs costs 45pts and can continue to get a consistent 2-3 MWs so long as at least one scarab is still alive. They also move 10" so far less situational.

Mutant strain's spike damage falls off dramatically as soon as you start to lose Poxies from the unit.

45pts of poxwalkers is the break point for comparison with scarabs as it will do 3MWs and kill 15pts of its own strength.

I just think neither strat is anywhere near being a problem tbh


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why did you even make the thread if you're not willing to take on board anything anybody has said to you?

We've tried to demonstrate why the strat isn't as strong as it might seem, we've tried to show you how easy it is to mitigate, we've also compared it to other strats and abilities to show there is at least some parity with other stuff in the game.

You've just been completely unwilling to engage and have now been ranting for five pages. Why wouldn't people surmise that your are just salty and blowing off steam?

I really think you should give it up because you're just coming across obnoxious.

I dont mind having peoples opinion, i mind when people pretend to know why ive made a thread, and apparently KNOWS that i was outplayed despite the fact they werent there.

THAT is what i mind. It also kind of annoyed me people persistently wanted to talk about strategies when i just wanted to talk cost efficiency and value in stratagems, but ive since then found out that apparently many people really want that. So fair game to them. I dont agree though as i feel like one should be able to talk about stratagems alone without strategies as well. But i do hear you on that one.

But people pretending that i was outplayed? that i "messed up"? that they somehow "know things" despite they werent there? They just waste time because its just people trying to demean me with their high moral crap, about how they "pretend to be good guys" when they are just bullies who want to put you down in a "lowkey" fashion. I am a hot head so i sadly pick up on it.


But lets say you play Khorne Daemons. How do you most efficiently deal with poxwalkers near a gardenhose man who is ready to throw mutant strain down? I dont play Khorne Daemons but given their lack of shooting i have no idea how it would happen, except maybe baiting out the charges like you guys said earlier.

Beardedragon wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
In fairness, the comparison to the scarab strat is slightly disingenuous since a unit of scarabs costs 45pts and can continue to get a consistent 2-3 MWs so long as at least one scarab is still alive. They also move 10" so far less situational.

Mutant strain's spike damage falls off dramatically as soon as you start to lose Poxies from the unit.

45pts of poxwalkers is the break point for comparison with scarabs as it will do 3MWs and kill 15pts of its own strength.

I just think neither strat is anywhere near being a problem tbh


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why did you even make the thread if you're not willing to take on board anything anybody has said to you?

We've tried to demonstrate why the strat isn't as strong as it might seem, we've tried to show you how easy it is to mitigate, we've also compared it to other strats and abilities to show there is at least some parity with other stuff in the game.

You've just been completely unwilling to engage and have now been ranting for five pages. Why wouldn't people surmise that your are just salty and blowing off steam?

I really think you should give it up because you're just coming across obnoxious.

I dont mind having peoples opinion, i mind when people pretend to know why ive made a thread, and apparently KNOWS that i was outplayed despite the fact they werent there.

THAT is what i mind. It also kind of annoyed me people persistently wanted to talk about strategies when i just wanted to talk cost efficiency and value in stratagems, but ive since then found out that apparently many people really want that. So fair game to them. I dont agree though as i feel like one should be able to talk about stratagems alone without strategies as well. But i do hear you on that one.

But people pretending that i was outplayed? that i "messed up"? that they somehow "know things" despite they werent there? They just waste time because its just people trying to demean me with their high moral crap, about how they "pretend to be good guys" when they are just bullies who want to put you down in a "lowkey" fashion. I am a hot head so i sadly pick up on it.

To be fair, the ol' classic "i lost a game, time to make a dakka thread about it" is always fun to spot out. It's not a lowkey putdown, it's especially funny when you've done one of those in the past yourself. I think mine was about how Tau were so broken and unfair and only meanies played tau in 7th ed, lol.

 the_scotsman wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
In fairness, the comparison to the scarab strat is slightly disingenuous since a unit of scarabs costs 45pts and can continue to get a consistent 2-3 MWs so long as at least one scarab is still alive. They also move 10" so far less situational.

Mutant strain's spike damage falls off dramatically as soon as you start to lose Poxies from the unit.

45pts of poxwalkers is the break point for comparison with scarabs as it will do 3MWs and kill 15pts of its own strength.

I just think neither strat is anywhere near being a problem tbh


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why did you even make the thread if you're not willing to take on board anything anybody has said to you?

We've tried to demonstrate why the strat isn't as strong as it might seem, we've tried to show you how easy it is to mitigate, we've also compared it to other strats and abilities to show there is at least some parity with other stuff in the game.

You've just been completely unwilling to engage and have now been ranting for five pages. Why wouldn't people surmise that your are just salty and blowing off steam?

I really think you should give it up because you're just coming across obnoxious.

I dont mind having peoples opinion, i mind when people pretend to know why ive made a thread, and apparently KNOWS that i was outplayed despite the fact they werent there.

THAT is what i mind. It also kind of annoyed me people persistently wanted to talk about strategies when i just wanted to talk cost efficiency and value in stratagems, but ive since then found out that apparently many people really want that. So fair game to them. I dont agree though as i feel like one should be able to talk about stratagems alone without strategies as well. But i do hear you on that one.

But people pretending that i was outplayed? that i "messed up"? that they somehow "know things" despite they werent there? They just waste time because its just people trying to demean me with their high moral crap, about how they "pretend to be good guys" when they are just bullies who want to put you down in a "lowkey" fashion. I am a hot head so i sadly pick up on it.

To be fair, the ol' classic "i lost a game, time to make a dakka thread about it" is always fun to spot out. It's not a lowkey putdown, it's especially funny when you've done one of those in the past yourself. I think mine was about how Tau were so broken and unfair and only meanies played tau in 7th ed, lol.

Sure, but mate, i had a great game. It was my first time facing off against the new mortarion and i could have won if i hadnt made some crucial mistakes (which charging poxwalkers werent one of them btw). I was outplayed i guess is the correct term, but i still see, looking back, that i COULD have won. I was not annoyed when i packed my things and left afterwards. The fact that i could have won made me proud. Ive faced poxwalkers like 3 or 4 times since the new codex, thats why i know what they do, how they work with the gardenhose man and all that. baiting a charge out is a strategy i had never thought of (charging him by the edge within the aura, so he must charge first, but can only reach with maybe 4-5 poxies), and ill try that next time.

But i, like everyone else, reflects upon the game afterwards, and thats why i thought to myself: why on earth are poxwalkers even allowed to deal MW on hit rolls of 6, when most others who can do that, do it on the wounding phase? for 1CP? seemed really over the top to me.

Hence the thread. Maybe my opening thread came off stronger than it had to be, because i couldnt get it out of my head that you could potentially take a pisspoor 5ppm model unit and deal 10+ MW. sure, unlikely but still, the ability to do so seemed... crazy.

I understand what people say about strategies, but i still feel like it over performs.

If you want to talk about value of a strategem. How do you properly value a strategem? I mentioned above. The universal reroll strategem is 1 cp. There are entire games that are won or lost because of a single reroll.

So how do you value 1 CP?

Poxwalkers are honestly a crappy melee unit. So 1 CP makes them at least do something in melee. Is that somehow more OP than making an elite unit killing 50% more?

I also find it odd you now want to talk about the value of a strategem when you refuse to even talk about other strategems in comparision (like how you brushed off all talk about how powerful other strategems were).

How do you value a strategem in a void without even comparing it to other strategems?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
If you want to talk about value of a strategem. How do you properly value a strategem? I mentioned above. The universal reroll strategem is 1 cp. There are entire games that are won or lost because of a single reroll.

So how do you value 1 CP?

Poxwalkers are honestly a crappy melee unit. So 1 CP makes them at least do something in melee. Is that somehow more OP than making an elite unit killing 50% more?

I also find it odd you now want to talk about the value of a strategem when you refuse to even talk about other strategems in comparision (like how you brushed off all talk about how powerful other strategems were).

How do you value a strategem in a void without even comparing it to other strategems?

i dont mind talking about other stratagems in general, but i didnt want to talk about stratagems in the way you guys wanted to. what you guys did was this: X stratagem is more OP than Mutant strain, ergo, Mutant strain is fine".

that seemed to be a weird way to go about it. Like, if Wrath of mars can deal a max of 6 CP, i wouldnt consider it OP because it cost 2CP, i would if it cost 1CP. but you could deal like 10MW with 1CP for poxwalkers. I cant even imagine how grots would be if you could deal MW on hit rolls of 1 for those. I also dont think Poxwalkers are terrible in general. sure they are bad melee units, but you dont take them for that as far as i understand. you take them to screen out and hold objectives and take the first charge hits.And of course deal mortal wounds from mutant strain (which i still think should happen in the wounding phase).

id say you properly value a stratagem dealing MW by looking at how much mortal wounds other stratagems that can deal MW generally do. If we do that, we can see that mutant strain breaks the scale by a long shot. I mean even Wrath of mars only deals 6MW and cost 2CP. (Is there really a max on 6dmg? doesnt say so on wahapedia).

But ive never faced that ability before, so i could be wrong.

I'm not gonna waste time with OP because the thing he doesn't want to talk about (strategy and tactics) is part of what determines what he *does* want to talk about (cost efficiency of stratagems). You cannot simply talk about one without the other.

Therefore, it's not worth engaging with the OP any further, and I feel like this thread should be shut down.

Did you really just come here to announce your leaving?

If you didnt want to be part of the discussion because you feel like im hopeless, thats fine. Why announce it?

Why not just.. stop paticipating.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
...Gotcha!...

This is why I hate strategems, and also all the buff stacking, it creates for situations that are just super gakky.
Perhaps my enjoyment is too fragile, but if I get caught by a particularly bad gotcha it can really ruin the whole game for me.

I always inform someone if they're walking into a really bad decision. I played too many counter decks in magic and I haaaaaaaaaate that bs.