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But I guess what needed to be said has been said already. Some think the stratagem is okay Others dont.

I dont have anything Else to say i guess

The units that can be buffed by something like Wrath of mars have BS 3+, some can be inproved further. Some can get rerolls from just having a character standing near them and making them reroll all 1s, etc. And then some like rangers can be further buffed to double their shooting by yet even more strategems. So now they have double the chances of inflicting mortal wounds. And then wrath of Mars is shooting. Ranger using a Gavanic rifle (their standard), have a range of 30 inches and basic 2 shots.

I am basically saying I can reach out and touch any unit within double tap range and potentially obliterate it. Imagine a unit that can say that any unit within 21 inches is basically dead. Now ordinarily, a ranger unit, even a 20 man ranger unit cannot acomplish something like that.

However, strategems and stuff make it such that it can!

This is very different from a strategem that makes a crappy melee unit do something decent in close combat...

 Jidmah wrote:
You might as well cap all damage to 3, so a unit of thunder hammer terminators can't kill the rhino I charge into them.

Thunder hammer damage is already capped at 3, if you re-roll a wound roll for 1CP on a TH Terminator you are not doing more than 3 damage. Ha, gotcha!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
...how do you value 1 CP?

15-20 pts or 1-2 MW.

Cultists didn't even have a mortal wound strategem and got hit by the nerf bat so many times... Sigh, why is there this bias against "low tier" units...

What the heck is a low tier unit anyway. A cultist? a poxwalker? a grot? AM infantry?

A basic troop unit? (Looks at a primaris space marine and disagrees).

 vict0988 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You might as well cap all damage to 3, so a unit of thunder hammer terminators can't kill the rhino I charge into them.

Thunder hammer damage is already capped at 3, if you re-roll a wound roll for 1CP on a TH Terminator you are not doing more than 3 damage. Ha, gotcha!

No, no. You are not allowed to deal more than 3 damage for the entire unit. Because they overperform when more than one deals damage to the unit I charged in there because I'm an idiot. The rules should protect me from that.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You might as well cap all damage to 3, so a unit of thunder hammer terminators can't kill the rhino I charge into them.

Thunder hammer damage is already capped at 3, if you re-roll a wound roll for 1CP on a TH Terminator you are not doing more than 3 damage. Ha, gotcha!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
...how do you value 1 CP?

15-20 pts or 1-2 MW.

Right ... so 2CP to shoot twice... Obliterators now do double the amount of damage. You seriously think that is just gonna work out to a few wounds? So, yes, cacophony must be OP. Lets nerf CSM even more while we are at it... So just because a strategem isn't about mortal wounds, so it can be OP? (And btw, does this mean I think Cacophony is OP? I don't know, because other factions get to shoot or fight twice too ... so...).

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
...Gotcha!...

This is why I hate strategems, and also all the buff stacking, it creates for situations that are just super gakky.
Perhaps my enjoyment is too fragile, but if I get caught by a particularly bad gotcha it can really ruin the whole game for me.

I always inform someone if they're walking into a really bad decision. I played too many counter decks in magic and I haaaaaaaaaate that bs.

Same. "Keep in mind that I have a stratagem that makes those poxwalkers cause mortal wounds, and you will be fighting last because of this guy's relic". Opponent responds with curses. Done.

There really is no need to gotcha people in 40k.

 Jidmah wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You might as well cap all damage to 3, so a unit of thunder hammer terminators can't kill the rhino I charge into them.

Thunder hammer damage is already capped at 3, if you re-roll a wound roll for 1CP on a TH Terminator you are not doing more than 3 damage. Ha, gotcha!

No, no. You are not allowed to deal more than 3 damage for the entire unit. Because they overperform when more than one deals damage to the unit I charged in there because I'm an idiot. The rules should protect me from that.

Where can I buy units for 1 CP? Do you play open-play or is it a crusade rule

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You might as well cap all damage to 3, so a unit of thunder hammer terminators can't kill the rhino I charge into them.

Thunder hammer damage is already capped at 3, if you re-roll a wound roll for 1CP on a TH Terminator you are not doing more than 3 damage. Ha, gotcha!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
...how do you value 1 CP?

15-20 pts or 1-2 MW.

Right ... so 2CP to shoot twice... Obliterators now do double the amount of damage. You seriously think that is just gonna work out to a few wounds? So, yes, cacophony must be OP. Lets nerf CSM even more while we are at it... So just because a strategem isn't about mortal wounds, so it can be OP? (And btw, does this mean I think Cacophony is OP? I don't know, because other factions get to shoot or fight twice too ... so...).

How is Cacophony being OP even a question? I want to nerf shoot/fight twice in every faction. Nerf everything! Nothing would be far above the power curve I suggested if I had my way. Obliterators would be viable in World Eaters detachments after the points drop I'd be able to give them without having to consider them as Assault 12 instead of Assault 6. Even Thousand Sons detachments would be able to include Obliterators, because I think they should get Obliterators just as much as World Eaters.

Everybody would be able to have fun with their toy soldier collections, whether they be brand new Drukhari collections or 3rd era CSM collections.

"Where can I buy units for 1 CP? Do you play open-play or is it a crusade rule: "

Well, Chief Apocathery can bring back an entire terminator or an attack bike for 0 CP. Thats in match play too! Does that count ?

 vict0988 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You might as well cap all damage to 3, so a unit of thunder hammer terminators can't kill the rhino I charge into them.

Thunder hammer damage is already capped at 3, if you re-roll a wound roll for 1CP on a TH Terminator you are not doing more than 3 damage. Ha, gotcha!

No, no. You are not allowed to deal more than 3 damage for the entire unit. Because they overperform when more than one deals damage to the unit I charged in there because I'm an idiot. The rules should protect me from that.

Where can I buy units for 1 CP? Do you play open-play or is it a crusade rule

 vict0988 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
...how do you value 1 CP?

15-20 pts or 1-2 MW.

You also can get 4-5 pox walkers or 1 terminator for 1 CP.

 Jidmah wrote:

You also can get 4-5 pox walkers or 1 terminator for 1 CP.

Yea the standard seems to be about 3 wounds for readily usable strats. DE broke that and the Mars one should by all rights be 2 CP.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You might as well cap all damage to 3, so a unit of thunder hammer terminators can't kill the rhino I charge into them.

Thunder hammer damage is already capped at 3, if you re-roll a wound roll for 1CP on a TH Terminator you are not doing more than 3 damage. Ha, gotcha!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
...how do you value 1 CP?

15-20 pts or 1-2 MW.

Right ... so 2CP to shoot twice... Obliterators now do double the amount of damage. You seriously think that is just gonna work out to a few wounds? So, yes, cacophony must be OP. Lets nerf CSM even more while we are at it... So just because a strategem isn't about mortal wounds, so it can be OP? (And btw, does this mean I think Cacophony is OP? I don't know, because other factions get to shoot or fight twice too ... so...).

EC is only OP in a world where almost every army doesn't has the ability to shoot/fight twice.

Stratagems are OP is the moral of the story.

Part of the problem with a lot of the stratagems is they don't account for any variance in a unit. There is a real difference between using a shoot twice on CSM squad than obliterators. Same thing with the mutant strain. Having it on 10 pox walkers is much less an issue than 20. But the stratagem doesn't account for that in CP, so it is the same if it is one guy or 20. All stratagems should have an increase CP cost based on power level. That would probably balance things better.

Also, in my opinion, one of the biggest problems with stratagems is that you can stack them. Again, shooting twice with obliterators is nice, but when you add +1 to wound, re-rell to hit rolls all together it becomes crazy. I once shot down two storm ravens in one turn with that combination from only the obliterator unit. If a unit could only have one active stratagem on it at at time, I think it would really help tone down some of the really over the top combinations. But some people like those so who knows.

The stratagem is fine honestly. 5 to 6 MW for 1CP is quite a lot, and it's possibly the most wounds per CP spend in the DG codex but it is also the most restricted stratagem outside of the exploding characters ones. It's only usable by a 4" move melee unit that might not even get all models into combat. Other strats might just do 2 to 5 wounds but can be used by faster units or shooting units, In that context I consider it balanced.

 xeen wrote:
Part of the problem with a lot of the stratagems is they don't account for any variance in a unit. There is a real difference between using a shoot twice on CSM squad than obliterators. Same thing with the mutant strain. Having it on 10 pox walkers is much less an issue than 20. But the stratagem doesn't account for that in CP, so it is the same if it is one guy or 20. All stratagems should have an increase CP cost based on power level. That would probably balance things better.

Also, in my opinion, one of the biggest problems with stratagems is that you can stack them. Again, shooting twice with obliterators is nice, but when you add +1 to wound, re-rell to hit rolls all together it becomes crazy. I once shot down two storm ravens in one turn with that combination from only the obliterator unit. If a unit could only have one active stratagem on it at at time, I think it would really help tone down some of the really over the top combinations. But some people like those so who knows.

Nothing unreasonable about what you said here.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Right ... so 2CP to shoot twice... Obliterators now do double the amount of damage. You seriously think that is just gonna work out to a few wounds? So, yes, cacophony must be OP. Lets nerf CSM even more while we are at it... So just because a strategem isn't about mortal wounds, so it can be OP? (And btw, does this mean I think Cacophony is OP? I don't know, because other factions get to shoot or fight twice too ... so...).

yes, remove VotLW and Cacophony from the game. Theyre dumb stratagems carrying the faction. Remove them and make baseline units in the codex function without a wombo combo playstyle.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

You also can get 4-5 pox walkers or 1 terminator for 1 CP.

Yea the standard seems to be about 3 wounds for readily usable strats. DE broke that and the Mars one should by all rights be 2 CP.

sorry, how did DE break that? The only strat that you can get over 3 wounds per 1cp is eviscerating flyby vs infantry with >15 hellions.

Haywire Grenade is still 1cp for d3.

I would not say a stratagem that requires you to be able to 1, keep 15+ models in a single unit alive and 2, move them all over a specifically INFANTRY target would qualify as "readily Available". At least, not as 'Readily Available" as a usual MW-granting stratagem that asks you to do things like:

-charge with a unit that already wants to be in melee
-be close enough to throw a grenade with any unit
-be in range with an extremely long-range weapon, OR be in range with any bolt weapon in an army filled with bolt weapons.

So, to make this work we need:

All models to survive the walk across the board, at the movement speed of a snail.
All models to make it into range to attack.
Perfectly average dice rolls or better.
2CP if you want the average 12 MWs.

Why would anyone even attempt that?
Its a hail Mary last turn thing to be used.
Realistically you are never going to pull this off, more so against any opponent that has a higher IQ than they have fingers.

If they magically teleported into combat, turn 1 with all models in range, then yes, its a problem.
As it stands, its just not going to happen.

2 CP for 12 MWs is amazing in 9th.

Talk about a colossal overreaction.

If people think remembering stratagems is hard please never play a TCG. A multiplayer game of commander could easily have 200-250 unique cards that interact in a series of if then chains of effect. Then toss abilities and spells onto the stack and you have to figure out exactly how it all resolves. Then when that game ends everybody pulls out a new deck that probably don't share that many cards with the old set of decks.

In short, learn the game. Ask questions. Don't get gotcha'd.

blaktoof wrote:
2 CP for 12 MWs is amazing in 9th.

But thats an insanely situational 12 MW that will likely never happen.

The unit is likely to reach combat almost entirely dead or even die before getting there anyway.

At the speed they move you can also just ignore them and focus on something else to begin with.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
If people think remembering stratagems is hard please never play a TCG. A multiplayer game of commander could easily have 200-250 unique cards that interact in a series of if then chains of effect. Then toss abilities and spells onto the stack and you have to figure out exactly how it all resolves. Then when that game ends everybody pulls out a new deck that probably don't share that many cards with the old set of decks.

In short, learn the game. Ask questions. Don't get gotcha'd.

But the cards in magic are all puplic knowledge and the rules interactions have mostly stayed the same over decades and they use a good keyword system. The amount of completely new rules given out at a time is fairly limited in more competitive games.

Almost all the weirdest rules are on overcosted and overcomplicated cards that are there just for fun. You don't really mind loosing to such cards since everyone know they are subpar and if someone managed to win those crazy cards everyone at the table knows they could have won faster and easier with better cards if they wanted. It wasn't unknown knowledge that decided it really. More than usual I mean since the game is based partly on you not knowing what your opponent have in their deck or hand. 40k is supposed to be "open" knowledge yet the rules are not available to everyone unless they pay a huge sum.

Most TCGs become easier over time to understand with the years since your old knowledge is still useful a decade later. You just need to learn the best new cards with are like 10% of the cards since you went away. The rest stayed the same and there are lot of exact reprints with the same name and ability. In 40k it really isn't much of help to have played previous editions since rules actually change how they work all the time. The ever changing nature of 40k makes it hard to know everything. Most mistakes I see from veteran players are that they misremembered rules from previous editions and rules documents and mix it up with current rules/models with the same name.

The amount of rules in itself isn't the real problem but how they are designed are. I remember thousands off well designed magic cards or even UFS cards years after I played the game. Couldn't tell you the correct name and wording on the current Blood Angels strats because I will mix them up with previous strats and those from other chapters.

Nobody is expected to know every single intricacy of an opponents army, but it's just common sense to ask relevant questions that pertain to how your army operates.

Playing a close combat orientated army? You ask if your opponents army has any fight last, or good overwatch units, or cheeky heroic intervention mechanics. All things that can impact how your gameplan is meant to go.

You don't need a deep dive rundown of all 40 stratagems that they have ffs

Klickor wrote:
But the cards in magic are all puplic knowledge and the rules interactions have mostly stayed the same over decades and they use a good keyword system. The amount of completely new rules given out at a time is fairly limited in more competitive games.

Yes, MtG has every card as public knowledge but it isn't hard to find the same info for 40k even if it does get a little grey area from time to time. I'd love for GW to make the physical book a premium product and the rules a nominal fee (like $1.99 or less) no frills PDF.

Also, yes completely new rules in MtG are rare but the complexity of MtG isn't on a card-by-card basis, it's in how a dozen different cards interact on the battlefield. For example, Wandering Fumarole and Sure Strike always making a 4/4 and never a 7/1 because of layering. Chains of Mephistopheles is always a mind bender the first time people see it.

This isn't to say that MtG isn't easy to get into, because for a TCG with as many cards and formats as it has MtG is very accessible, it's just that if you can understand MtG and spend weeks researching a new deck before building and tuning it you can learn the gotcha strats in 40k.

I don't think anyone is saying you can't learn the gotchas in 40k but it's an entirely different kind of game. Magic is all about the card interactions so spending time learning them is almost all that is required for the game. 40k on the other hand already have the immense time requirements of assembling and painting your models and then just the effort of setting up a game and transport your army to it is vastly higher than for doing the same in a card game.

People already complain about the painting part being gatekeeping. Having to spend so much mental capacity just to keep up with the rules is in some form another gatekeeping aspect. You are "supposed" to lose just because you didn't spend extra time learning everything due to bad game design forcing you to do so.

It is a gakky comparison using MtG. The only 40k player at our club that didn't start playing long ago but started in 8th sold off his army a month or so ago and now plays better designed games, including EDH/Commander. He didn't want to study rules for a game that could change at any moment. He had better things to do.

Klickor wrote:
I don't think anyone is saying you can't learn the gotchas in 40k but it's an entirely different kind of game. Magic is all about the card interactions so spending time learning them is almost all that is required for the game. 40k on the other hand already have the immense time requirements of assembling and painting your models and then just the effort of setting up a game and transport your army to it is vastly higher than for doing the same in a card game.

People already complain about the painting part being gatekeeping. Having to spend so much mental capacity just to keep up with the rules is in some form another gatekeeping aspect. You are "supposed" to lose just because you didn't spend extra time learning everything due to bad game design forcing you to do so.

It is a gakky comparison using MtG. The only 40k player at our club that didn't start playing long ago but started in 8th sold off his army a month or so ago and now plays better designed games, including EDH/Commander. He didn't want to study rules for a game that could change at any moment. He had better things to do.

If you want to be good at something like 40k you need a certain level of willingness to study the armies in your meta, learn what your own army is supposed to do, and then play more than a game per month. People want to treat 40k as if you should be able to play a game every month or two with whatever random junk you've assembled and have a decent chance at not getting blown out. That's not really how any game works, even MtG requires you to buy the cards you need for your deck(s) and - depending on your format - keep up with rotation and the local meta while learning to pilot your deck.

 Canadian 5th wrote:


This isn't to say that MtG isn't easy to get into, because for a TCG with as many cards and formats as it has MtG is very accessible, it's just that if you can understand MtG and spend weeks researching a new deck before building and tuning it you can learn the gotcha strats in 40k.

You just type in best decks for format X, and then either print out the cards or if you play at a store order them from China. The last thing maybe takes a few weeks, but not of research. And when you have the deck you just watch tutorials , and they tell you everything, what and how to play, when to do it, what side deck cards to use against specific match ups.

w40k is horrible comparing to that, because even if you plow through the entire part of the net that tells you to play what you want, even if you find playtesters, and if you copy their lists, it takes months to have the army ready, so even if no nerfs happens in that time, you still can find out that in the video or two you saw, the army was not played serious or was played vs builds that aren't played in the real world or localy. It is very rare for something like a harlequins or GK army lists to exist, DE seem to be the only thing right now that comes with something close to a pre build core list.

the first time you get that gotcha dropped on you, it sucks, especially if they roll well. The next few times though, you learn really quickly how to deal with them.

Spare low strength weapon fire deals with them pretty easily. They're slow, and they really don't have any output other than to get bumped up with some CP.

Drink some concrete my dude, its time to harden up a bit.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Klickor wrote:
I don't think anyone is saying you can't learn the gotchas in 40k but it's an entirely different kind of game. Magic is all about the card interactions so spending time learning them is almost all that is required for the game. 40k on the other hand already have the immense time requirements of assembling and painting your models and then just the effort of setting up a game and transport your army to it is vastly higher than for doing the same in a card game.

People already complain about the painting part being gatekeeping. Having to spend so much mental capacity just to keep up with the rules is in some form another gatekeeping aspect. You are "supposed" to lose just because you didn't spend extra time learning everything due to bad game design forcing you to do so.

It is a gakky comparison using MtG. The only 40k player at our club that didn't start playing long ago but started in 8th sold off his army a month or so ago and now plays better designed games, including EDH/Commander. He didn't want to study rules for a game that could change at any moment. He had better things to do.

If you want to be good at something like 40k you need a certain level of willingness to study the armies in your meta, learn what your own army is supposed to do, and then play more than a game per month. People want to treat 40k as if you should be able to play a game every month or two with whatever random junk you've assembled and have a decent chance at not getting blown out. That's not really how any game works, even MtG requires you to buy the cards you need for your deck(s) and - depending on your format - keep up with rotation and the local meta while learning to pilot your deck.

Ofc people treat 40k that way. The game have been designed that way for decades and the game designers probably still do think of it like that. Most of the gotchas aren't even that bad if people didn't turn up with competitive lists.

Like a 3" heroic intervention on a random tactical squad isn't bad but if it is a fully decked out Vanguard Veteran squad you are in for the hurt.

The slamguinius captain that were totally broken and unfair, unfun and the empitome of gotcha for those that haven't seen it before does nothing if you play with any of the stock characters GW sells. If you put the same warlord traits, relics and stratagems on any of the normal characters GW sells it isn't a problem at all. You need to convert one with a TH+SS+JP yourself which is most likely why it survived the testing phase.

We as the player have to study up because the game is so badly designed. There are more complex and competitive games out there that need less studying to avoid gotchas.

I remember when I played Warmachine competitive in early MK2. That game is way more punishing to mistakes than any gotcha in 40k. It also had way more combos that were depending on how and when you activated units and abilities than current 40k. Yet it was quite easy to keep up with the rules and when at the table see what your opponent could do without 40 hidden strats you had to remember. You just picked up their cards and read right on them what they could do.

You could do some insane gak in that game. I once won a game by using my leader to debuff their warjack(a walker like a dreadnought)that was protecting their warcaster/leader and also debuffing said leader. Then use my warjack to shoot a harpoon at their warjack and drag it over to my side leaving a gap in his lines. Then use a special unit to destroy his warjack and out of the remains create a new and better warjack that could perfectly fit in the new gap in his lines. It moved up there and grabbed his leader and threw it so it would be just in reach from my elite melee unit. Since his leader was debuffed from before my melee unit could easily kill him there and end the game. There were some more things going on for me to do that as well but they don't really matter. Despite all those actions and from outside it might have looked like a win out of nowhere, he knew I could do it but hedged on that I wouldn't be able to succeed all those actions. If I failed he would most likely have won on scenario instead. That win is way more complicated than anything you can do in 40k yet it is way easier to see.

If you need to study a lot for 40k then it is the problem with the game, not the expectations of the players