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This has annoyed me, now none of my squads are “legal”. I play very casual so it should be ok but it’s just silly now. The options don’t even make sense, vanguard having an arquebus is a waste.

Not "your DUDES" anymore, progressing for the sake of it and also potentially curbing 3rd party sales.

I normally don’t get irked by stuff like this but it’s going a bit too far, the plague marine options and now this. Is sucking the character out of units now.

What are the precise differences? Comparing to my Index Imperium 2, are they allowed one less special weapon, but my go up to 20 and include both the omnispex and data-tether?

I expect we'll see more of this moving forward. Definitely makes it easier when building an army though, as you don't need to worry about acquiring stuff which isn't in the box to fill out your squads.

Waiting for the same thing to happen for my harlequins troupes, I'm glad I've not given all my players fusion pistols lol.

Brickfix wrote:
What are the precise differences? Comparing to my Index Imperium 2, are they allowed one less special weapon, but my go up to 20 and include both the omnispex and data-tether?

You can't take multiples of the same weapon - just the options that come in the box.

The White Knights will say it's to make options more beginner friendly, and to stop forcing people to buy multiple boxes to get the 'good' options; and the Black Knights will say it's to cut down on recasting, 3D printing and 3rd-party sales.

Andykp wrote:
I normally don’t get irked by stuff like this but it’s going a bit too far, the plague marine options and now this. Is sucking the character out of units now.

Like i said, not YOUR DUDES anymore, it's all sanitised by GW.

jaredb wrote:
I expect we'll see more of this moving forward. Definitely makes it easier when building an army though, as you don't need to worry about acquiring stuff which isn't in the box to fill out your squads.

Unless you buy a box on intercessors!

I know it isn’t a huge issue but it is annoying.

Andykp wrote:
This has annoyed me, now none of my squads are “legal”. I play very casual so it should be ok but it’s just silly now. The options don’t even make sense, vanguard having an arquebus is a waste.

No kidding. This will be how　it's going to be from now on.

Dw players are teliing "we told ya so"

As a Death Guard player, I commiserate.

Just as a side, as a non-admech player are 20 strong units of skitarii popular? I can't recall that being used in my experience against them and watching batreps on YT.

I don't give a gak, honestly. I already kitbash my model as I like, and if anyone makes a fuss I simply don't play them again.
GW can delude themselves into those Fomo, collectables practices as much as they want. That's not the foundation of the hobby, and no amount of marketing material will ever change that.

For the few times I really bave to go to a tournament, if this gakky practice will ever reach some of my current armies, I'll bring my Knight Household which is fully magnetized and has few options anyway.

 Gert wrote:
Just as a side, as a non-admech player are 20 strong units of skitarii popular? I can't recall that being used in my experience against them and watching batreps on YT.

It's a new option - they were capped at 10 (except for the FW Secutarii, who went down to 10 in the Compendium).

Gotta tell ya, I've always hated it when units/vehicles had options that weren't included in the box.

Paid 60$ for this and now I have to arts and crafts the gun I actually want or buy ANOTHER kit. Woo.

Just wish they had gone the 'add the option to the box' route rather than the 'subtract the option from the unit' route.

ERJAK wrote:
Gotta tell ya, I've always hated it when units/vehicles had options that weren't included in the box.

Paid 60$ for this and now I have to arts and crafts the gun I actually want or buy ANOTHER kit. Woo.

Just wish they had gone the 'add the option to the box' route rather than the 'subtract the option from the unit' route.

considering the prices of GW.... .
THIS. SO. MUCH

There'd only need to be another sprue for havocs f.e. to have a full HW selection.
There'd only need to be another sprue for CSM to have a full equipment loadout.
But no...
And for those that say that would be unfeasable, i point to producers like perry miniatures and others which offer vastly more options in their sets for less money than GW:

This is irking me more when you consider no Marine units actually received these changes. Devs, Company Veterans, Vanguard Vets, all free to take whatever they want.

beast_gts wrote:
It's a new option - they were capped at 10 (except for the FW Secutarii, who went down to 10 in the Compendium).

Ah, OK. So generally this isn't really an issue because people were never playing 20 strong units before unlike Plague Marines where they were getting restrictions on loadouts they'd had since like 3rd edition.
I get why peeps are annoyed because it's limiting for specific future loadouts they might take but really this isn't that bad if the old units haven't been changed at all.
I am a little bit scared for the eventual CSM book because if they do the same for them all my CSM squads will be illegal but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Old units have been changed, though, Gert - at 5 models strong, a Ranger unit could have two of any Special Weapon, with a third Special Weapon becoming an option at 10 strong.

So small units have lost one SW, and the only way now to take two of the same special weapon is to take a 20 strong unit. You could take two of all three special weapons at that point, but that seems impractical.

People have, presumably, built specialised 10-strong units to date, meaning this stupidity from GW is a right pain in the buttocks.

 Gert wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
It's a new option - they were capped at 10 (except for the FW Secutarii, who went down to 10 in the Compendium).

Ah, OK. So generally this isn't really an issue because people were never playing 20 strong units before unlike Plague Marines where they were getting restrictions on loadouts they'd had since like 3rd edition.
I get why peeps are annoyed because it's limiting for specific future loadouts they might take but really this isn't that bad if the old units haven't been changed at all.
I am a little bit scared for the eventual CSM book because if they do the same for them all my CSM squads will be illegal but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

the amount of buffs that can be stacked on a unit of 20 rangers or vanguard is now scary.

In a Lucius <Forge World> (i.e chapter tactics) (grants +1 to saves against damage 1 weapons, and a boost of 3" on the range of all weapons):

Skitarii Marshal [3 PL, 45pts]: Relic: Exemplar's Eternity (reroll 1's to hit & wound), Warlord, Warlord Trait: Firepoint Telemetry Cache (a unit has cover, if infantry already in cover grant a further +1 save)

Tech-Priest Manipulus [6 PL, 105pts]: Logi (ignore AP-1 & -2), Magnarail lance, Mechanicus Locum (1CP - +1 WL Trait), Warlord Trait (Lucius): Luminescent Blessings (Transhuman), (ability on datasheet +6" range on galvanics & +1 additional AP)

Skitarii Rangers [8 PL, 170pts]: Enhanced Data-Tether, Omnispex (ignore Light cover). Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle,. 19x Skitarii Ranger: 19x Galvanic Rifle

Total: 320pts + 1CP

Transhuman (i.e. only wounded on 4+) & ignore AP-1 & -2 on the rangers, with potential 1+ save if in cover and against damage 1 weapons (before doctrinas). 39" (Lucius boost + Manipulus) S4, AP-2 D1 shots. x40. (80 in 19" for 2CP - makes rifles RF2 instead of heavy 2) rerolling 1's to hit & wound ignoring light cover. add further skitarii WL traits to stack buffs higher (you can put somthing like ignoring the penalty of moving & firing with heavy wepaons [i.e. galvanic rifles] or fall back & shoot for 1CP, and this can be put on the skitarii alpha in the ranger squad). add a TP with Artisans Holy Order, do the action for the advanced rule of +1S to ranged CORE units shots (and artisans would also give you a -1CP discount on making the rifles RF2 once as well).

Is it stupid when people are talking about running huge blobs of admech troops?

Right so I'm not really into the whole math-hammer optimum-combo deal (brain not like big think) so I assume that the combo Forgemaster mention is pretty heckin good?
If that is the case, and indeed there are more wombo-combo's out there, then it seems to me like the SW are balanced so you can't just take the best ones and make them even better.

I guess this means AdMech will be living the Tau life, where troops have few special weapons to speak of and have to do the Troops thing, not the Heavy Support thing.

Who is going to take Transuranic Rifles now? One to a squad, must remain stationary (I assume) to fire one Transuranic Rifle? Hard pass!

Transuranics don't have that rule anymore, they're just a standard Heavy weapon.

I'd be very interested in running blobs of 20 if there was a way to get around morale issues.

Most AdMech players at the moment are thinking of taking one of the following:

a 5-man unit with 1 special weapon e.g. 5 rangers with Arquebus or 5 vanguard with Arc rifle or plasma - for including specials & small chip damage

a 5 man unit basic - no upgrades, for actions/screens/etc

the 20man blob of either rangers or vanguard similar to the mentioned combo above (vanguard have more weaker shots but have a 1CP strat for auto-wounding on a 4+ to hit! so can reliably get rid of a tough unit if needed

EDIT: Arquebus do have a place occasionally - for instance in the MARS <Forge World> every unit gains 1 free hit reroll, and the option to use the canticles abilities - one of which gives 1 reroll hit, wound & damage per turn. so you end up with every unit having 2x reroll hits, 1 reroll wound and 1 reroll damage. which is a neat boost for single shot high damage weapons like the arquebus for example.

an example of the 20 vanguard combo in action vs necrons silver tide (20 warrior blobs). in this game in 2 turns deleted 2x 20 man warriors units.

Yeah maybe 1/5 with a TR would be OK, but it's a big step down from 2/5.

beast_gts wrote:

Brickfix wrote:
What are the precise differences? Comparing to my Index Imperium 2, are they allowed one less special weapon, but my go up to 20 and include both the omnispex and data-tether?

You can't take multiples of the same weapon - just the options that come in the box.

Interestingly enough, there's actually a bunch of pictures in the book showing doubled up specials in the squads. It seems like that bit of "9 or less models" gets you a single special while the "every 10 models" gets you another.

But you absolutely can take multiples. It just requires bigger squad sizes.

The White Knights will say it's to make options more beginner friendly, and to stop forcing people to buy multiple boxes to get the 'good' options; and the Black Knights will say it's to cut down on recasting, 3D printing and 3rd-party sales.

The reality is that it's tourney player feedback, which unfortunately the Big Names in Tourney Play had a direct line that the rest of us don't. They wouldn't stop whining about how bits sellers wanted so much for the "good" options(read: plasma calivers). Most people(especially those who played Skitarii not soup/Convocation) had no issue with multiple boxes. Especially since Skitarii were in the Start Collecting.

I personally had a great time gouging locals who saw themselves as "tourney players" on those calivers back when Skitarii first dropped, since I built Rangers with Arquebi. I was getting $15 per caliver+arm set...so every squad I outfitted entirely with Arquebi funded another box of Rangers at $37 a pop.


I'm still furious about the Onagers losing squadron capabilities. I've got 7 of the damn things!

That's annoying, I quite like my current Ranger squad with three Arquebus equipped models.

The gun appears to be a regular heavy weapon now, minus the move or fire rule, if rumours are true.

This is a bad trend.

 The Forgemaster wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gert wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
It's a new option - they were capped at 10 (except for the FW Secutarii, who went down to 10 in the Compendium).

Ah, OK. So generally this isn't really an issue because people were never playing 20 strong units before unlike Plague Marines where they were getting restrictions on loadouts they'd had since like 3rd edition.
I get why peeps are annoyed because it's limiting for specific future loadouts they might take but really this isn't that bad if the old units haven't been changed at all.
I am a little bit scared for the eventual CSM book because if they do the same for them all my CSM squads will be illegal but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

the amount of buffs that can be stacked on a unit of 20 rangers or vanguard is now scary.

In a Lucius <Forge World> (i.e chapter tactics) (grants +1 to saves against damage 1 weapons, and a boost of 3" on the range of all weapons):

Skitarii Marshal [3 PL, 45pts]: Relic: Exemplar's Eternity (reroll 1's to hit & wound), Warlord, Warlord Trait: Firepoint Telemetry Cache (a unit has cover, if infantry already in cover grant a further +1 save)

Tech-Priest Manipulus [6 PL, 105pts]: Logi (ignore AP-1 & -2), Magnarail lance, Mechanicus Locum (1CP - +1 WL Trait), Warlord Trait (Lucius): Luminescent Blessings (Transhuman), (ability on datasheet +6" range on galvanics & +1 additional AP)

Skitarii Rangers [8 PL, 170pts]: Enhanced Data-Tether, Omnispex (ignore Light cover). Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle,. 19x Skitarii Ranger: 19x Galvanic Rifle

Total: 320pts + 1CP

Transhuman (i.e. only wounded on 4+) & ignore AP-1 & -2 on the rangers, with potential 1+ save if in cover and against damage 1 weapons (before doctrinas). 39" (Lucius boost + Manipulus) S4, AP-2 D1 shots. x40. (80 in 19" for 2CP - makes rifles RF2 instead of heavy 2) rerolling 1's to hit & wound ignoring light cover. add further skitarii WL traits to stack buffs higher (you can put somthing like ignoring the penalty of moving & firing with heavy wepaons [i.e. galvanic rifles] or fall back & shoot for 1CP, and this can be put on the skitarii alpha in the ranger squad). add a TP with Artisans Holy Order, do the action for the advanced rule of +1S to ranged CORE units shots (and artisans would also give you a -1CP discount on making the rifles RF2 once as well).

Well, so much for 9th edition codexes cutting down on WOMBO COMBO. And they were doing so well. Seems they just can't help themselves.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The reality is that it's tourney player feedback, which unfortunately the Big Names in Tourney Play had a direct line that the rest of us don't. They wouldn't stop whining about how bits sellers wanted so much for the "good" options(read: plasma calivers). Most people(especially those who played Skitarii not soup/Convocation) had no issue with multiple boxes. Especially since Skitarii were in the Start Collecting.

I absolutely love how you think this happened because tournament players whined to GW about 3rd party bitz sellers.

It's basically the perfect excuse for you, because you get to do 3 things you love doing:

1. Hate on tournament players for are all cheating WAACs!
2. Hate on 3rd party bitz sellers for taking money away from poor widdle defenceless GW.
3. Blame anyone but GW for the whole mess.

Incredible. Just incredible.