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 Cheex wrote:

Exactly this. It becomes a bigger problem when you consider that CSM have two kits (multipart and ETB) that have different options - how will they handle this?

Oh, you know, one of those will be discontinued (probably whichever you happen to like best) & the rules will be written to reflect the remaining kit.

I fully expect Chaos Terminators to join their Death Guard counterparts in the "may have 1 of X, 1 of Y" bull gak.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Personally, I view these things as some sort of balancing mechanic. It could be an attempt to lower the cost to entry for common troops. Or some odd mix.

If you think that this change was done for the good of the game, then I've got some bridged I need to sell. Interested?

 Irbis wrote:
Wrong.

Do you get some kind of monetary incentive to start all your posts like this?

 Da Boss wrote:
Perhaps I misunderstood a post above, but is it correct that Scourges are not limited to the options in the box but Wyches are? If that is not the case then you can ignore my post as a misunderstanding.

The only consistency so far seems to have been that troops are the most targeted by this. I suspect when CSM gets updated, we'll see the same thing for the troops but Havocs won't have this restriction.

Who knows if that trend will hold though.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
then I've got some bridged I need to sell. Interested?

Well, I am rather fond of bridges.

Racerguy180 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It is one thing to invalidate a loadout when there is a change of kit, quite another to invalidate a loadout arbitrarily and in a manner that benefits no one. There are no players jumping into the game because of this change.

This decision won't make people jump into the game, you're right.

But anyone who does jump into the game will not feel pressured by net lists and influencers and Youtubers who tell them they need to buy a second box of Skitarii not for the actual Skitarii in the box, but for a single Arquebus because Skitarii with one Arquebus is USELESS and a WASTE OF POINTS but Skitarii with two Arquebuses are OP auto-take Lulz.

As previously mentioned, GW was surprised that there are people who were willing to actually do that- they never anticipated it, they never planned for it, and while they certainly didn't mind the bigger profit margin, they probably all think we're crazy for doing it.

Which is a good thing for the health of the game, the less netlisting the better. Doubly so for any newer player just getting into 40k.

Do you mean healthy as in people still play it or healthy as in actually being a good game? Because 40k is a garbage game and the Your Dudes factor that GW is stripping away was about the only advantage it had over other games besides sunk cost and exposure.

Death Guard Termies in particular are an odd duck in this new development. Plague Marines as we all know got their options in sub-10 man squads severely mangled, and the Termies did so too. But only for their ranged weapons, their standard melee weapons (axe or sword) was unchanged. You can still go full on one or the other despite the kit coming with (top of my head) 3 axes and 2 swords.

 Sasori wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Perhaps I misunderstood a post above, but is it correct that Scourges are not limited to the options in the box but Wyches are? If that is not the case then you can ignore my post as a misunderstanding.

The only consistency so far seems to have been that troops are the most targeted by this. I suspect when CSM gets updated, we'll see the same thing for the troops but Havocs won't have this restriction.

I dunno. Havocs are a weird unit already. Their weapons are cross-compatible with the CSM kit, but technically the bodies are distinct (and on larger bases and whatever). And that chain gun being singular stands out.


CSM are also in a very weird spot. They don't have all their weapon options, but the autocannon is on the sprue in the Start Collecting (from Shadowspear) so technically that shouldn't be invalidated (it'd be a gak show if they did, but so would killing the chain gun and the other havoc options that aren't on the CSM sprue, but have been options for CSM squads since the... early 90s)

The absolute panic over this is mind-blowing. After glancing through the codex, It might actually be a balancing factor as to why they limited it.

I'm not sure, I haven't read it in the depth that I want to yet. I barely got to crack the cover on my way home.

I dont see this as a problem, to be honest. I think this more closely represents a TO&E in the far future than anything else.

 Sim-Life wrote:


Do you mean healthy as in people still play it or healthy as in actually being a good game? Because 40k is a garbage game and the Your Dudes factor that GW is stripping away was about the only advantage it had over other games besides sunk cost and exposure.

GW may be stripping the "Your Dudes' Equipment factor", but since you're getting more "Your Dudeness" out of Crusade than you ever got out of an equipment section, I can tell you My Dudes are doing just fine.

And I'd add highest number of factions, highest number of models per faction and best quality plastic miniatures on the market as other advantages GW has over the competition- advantages GW will continue to have, even if they do pass rules to protect metachasers from their own instincts to build the best possible squad by buying multiple boxes of models they don't need for a single piece of gear that they think will help them win.

It really doesn’t seem like a balance change, seeing as how they had to buff every special weapon so that the new load out would even be feasible. They gave plasma and arc significantly longer ranges and allowed the arquebus to move and shoot.

I personally liked that plasma was tailored for vanguard and the arquebus for the rangers, while the arc was a middle ground that worked with either. It just feels so lame now.

Well gw being inconsistent itseif seems sisters escape this as troop squad still has multi melta option which doesn't come in box.

Gg gw

Wack.

PenitentJake wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:


Do you mean healthy as in people still play it or healthy as in actually being a good game? Because 40k is a garbage game and the Your Dudes factor that GW is stripping away was about the only advantage it had over other games besides sunk cost and exposure.

GW may be stripping the "Your Dudes' Equipment factor", but since you're getting more "Your Dudeness" out of Crusade than you ever got out of an equipment section, I can tell you My Dudes are doing just fine.

And I'd add highest number of factions, highest number of models per faction and best quality plastic miniatures on the market as other advantages GW has over the competition- advantages GW will continue to have, even if they do pass rules to protect metachasers from their own instincts to build the best possible squad by buying multiple boxes of models they don't need for a single piece of gear that they think will help them win.

Fine and dandy if you Like crusade...
I don't and think it's meh for narrative.

Not Online!!! wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:


Do you mean healthy as in people still play it or healthy as in actually being a good game? Because 40k is a garbage game and the Your Dudes factor that GW is stripping away was about the only advantage it had over other games besides sunk cost and exposure.

GW may be stripping the "Your Dudes' Equipment factor", but since you're getting more "Your Dudeness" out of Crusade than you ever got out of an equipment section, I can tell you My Dudes are doing just fine.

And I'd add highest number of factions, highest number of models per faction and best quality plastic miniatures on the market as other advantages GW has over the competition- advantages GW will continue to have, even if they do pass rules to protect metachasers from their own instincts to build the best possible squad by buying multiple boxes of models they don't need for a single piece of gear that they think will help them win.

Fine and dandy if you Like crusade...
I don't and think it's meh for narrative.

Ditto

tneva82 wrote:
Well gw being inconsistent itseif seems sisters escape this as troop squad still has multi melta option which doesn't come in box.

Gg gw

For the moment. Remember, the SoB do have a new codex dropping soon. So there's potential for GW to have corrected this oversight....

Not Online!!! wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:


Do you mean healthy as in people still play it or healthy as in actually being a good game? Because 40k is a garbage game and the Your Dudes factor that GW is stripping away was about the only advantage it had over other games besides sunk cost and exposure.

GW may be stripping the "Your Dudes' Equipment factor", but since you're getting more "Your Dudeness" out of Crusade than you ever got out of an equipment section, I can tell you My Dudes are doing just fine.

And I'd add highest number of factions, highest number of models per faction and best quality plastic miniatures on the market as other advantages GW has over the competition- advantages GW will continue to have, even if they do pass rules to protect metachasers from their own instincts to build the best possible squad by buying multiple boxes of models they don't need for a single piece of gear that they think will help them win.

Fine and dandy if you Like crusade...
I don't and think it's meh for narrative.

Most of what you said is just bloat. Crusade? Bloat. Loads of factions? Bloat. Loads of models per faction? Bloat. Part of what is making 40k suck is that there is just too many things with too many rules slapped onto them so I don't see how "40k has an advantage because it has lots of useless gak" is an argument.

I will concede they have the best quality plastic. But I don't think many people care what material their models are made of.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Most of what you said is just bloat. Crusade? Bloat. Loads of factions? Bloat. Loads of models per faction? Bloat. Part of what is making 40k suck is that there is just too many things with too many rules slapped onto them so I don't see how "40k has an advantage because it has lots of useless gak" is an argument.

I will concede they have the best quality plastic. But I don't think many people care what material their models are made of.

Especially now that you can 3D print amazing models for cheap in resin, for way less money than GW plastic.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:


Do you mean healthy as in people still play it or healthy as in actually being a good game? Because 40k is a garbage game and the Your Dudes factor that GW is stripping away was about the only advantage it had over other games besides sunk cost and exposure.

GW may be stripping the "Your Dudes' Equipment factor", but since you're getting more "Your Dudeness" out of Crusade than you ever got out of an equipment section, I can tell you My Dudes are doing just fine.

And I'd add highest number of factions, highest number of models per faction and best quality plastic miniatures on the market as other advantages GW has over the competition- advantages GW will continue to have, even if they do pass rules to protect metachasers from their own instincts to build the best possible squad by buying multiple boxes of models they don't need for a single piece of gear that they think will help them win.

Fine and dandy if you Like crusade...
I don't and think it's meh for narrative.

Most of what you said is just bloat. Crusade? Bloat. Loads of factions? Bloat. Loads of models per faction? Bloat. Part of what is making 40k suck is that there is just too many things with too many rules slapped onto them so I don't see how "40k has an advantage because it has lots of useless gak" is an argument.

I will concede they have the best quality plastic. But I don't think many people care what material their models are made of.

I woulnd't even agree on the best plastic anymore. Certainly not for a lot of factions.

Also, replacing generic guns and rules, which you could grant access to a faction or not via USR and replacing them with free traits and stratagems certainly didn't help because it multiplied the bloat x fold accross multiple factions...
Making it even worse to balance ironically then what GW already did with USRS...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aenar wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Most of what you said is just bloat. Crusade? Bloat. Loads of factions? Bloat. Loads of models per faction? Bloat. Part of what is making 40k suck is that there is just too many things with too many rules slapped onto them so I don't see how "40k has an advantage because it has lots of useless gak" is an argument.

I will concede they have the best quality plastic. But I don't think many people care what material their models are made of.

Especially now that you can 3D print amazing models for cheap in resin, for way less money than GW plastic.

Dunno a full resin printer setup with decent quality will still net you over here 1.5 full armies so long you don't go with a scion regiment that is...

No one* is going to run 1 of each thing anyways. It is really just cutting down the special weapons options to 1-per, maybe 2-per if there happen to be two weapons with uses that match up right.

*Yes I know someone will. I also know you know what I mean. If I meant *literally* no one I would have said that.

A cheap 3D printer (I've got an Anycubic Photon, the basic model) and a wash+cure machine can set you back $270. You also need resin and some isopropyl alcohol, but for $350 or less you can print a lot of stuff.
The wash+cure isn't needed, but it's very convenient to use and I recommend it.

Once you compare it to recent GW prices, plastic is not the cheapest option for a whole army anymore.
With resin you should also consider the time it takes to print and clean everything, so it may not be for everyon. Considering only the cost for the tools and the materials used, it's definitely cheaper.

Don't forget the setup time, and the maintenance; 3D printers are as reliable as their 2D counterparts.

And at the end of the day, er, week, er, month, er... Eventually, you'll have an army that cost less money for less quality!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Marines and Dark Eldar have both had new codexes without this treatment.

DE did ( Wyches did; Scourges did not ). Nobody complained about it.

I am ambivalent about it. Thematically it is exactly right, Wyches are gladiators/gladiatrices, and to my mind should have a mix of weapons, but it admittedly slows the game down a bit.

Scourges escaped the rule, which is just as well as it would have killed them off as a useful choice.

ccs wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well gw being inconsistent itseif seems sisters escape this as troop squad still has multi melta option which doesn't come in box.

Gg gw

For the moment. Remember, the SoB do have a new codex dropping soon. So there's potential for GW to have corrected this oversight....

Except we got codex point　page already thanks to ca. Those are points for new codex. A) ca also has gk/ts codex points that are not yet out(sister codex was supposed to be earlier. Likely february) b) it contains points for stuff old codex was never going to be able to use.

I based statement on new codex points page.

We thus also know for example that either　repentia are going to be nerfed in rules or go nuts as new codex dropped points...

Daedalus: Oh, I don't think it's a money making thing. I am not sure why they are doing it, it might have been to ensure people can't build illegal units by mistake?

The reason it blows my mind is that they do it for some units but not for others, so the design is super inconsistent. It just seems messy and weird to me.

 Da Boss wrote:
Daedalus: Oh, I don't think it's a money making thing. I am not sure why they are doing it, it might have been to ensure people can't build illegal units by mistake?

The reason it blows my mind is that they do it for some units but not for others, so the design is super inconsistent. It just seems messy and weird to me.

Feels weirdly consistent to me as they appear to always skip this rule on units that serve some "heavy" purpose like Devastators, Scourges(Fast Attack but have heavy weaponry), and probably Havocs and Retributors as well. It seems infantry that is more of a troop choice(even if in elite slot) tend to get this enforced on them.

 Da Boss wrote:
I am not sure why they are doing it, it might have been to ensure people can't build illegal units by mistake?

this is the big question here because there is no good reason for it

Because it is easier to balance unit by restrictiong the options than to try to make all options useable?
Because new players don't need to figure out witch loadout is the best?
Because people don't by 3rd party bits (they don't start searching for bits in the first place so never realise that other comapnies exist)

If GW does really care so much about balance, there are some other issues that need to be solved first.
If they want to make it easier for new players to make a starter army, don't add so many options in the first place

PenitentJake wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well maybe. But there is also those people who will sit down, look at the 5-6 boxs they have to buy to just make their legal army, legal and working again, and will just quit.

I understand this is less of a problem in places where having 6k of an army is considered nothing out of unusual.

Don't think it takes that many boxes.

Basically, you'd need to replace one special in any existing squad. So if you're okay with replacing that special with a standard weapon, one box fixes ten squads. If you insist on using replacements who are equipped with the other (sub-optimal) special weapon, you probably still have all the bits that you didn't use the first time around (because sub-optimal), and if so, you can still fix 10 squads with a single box.

I guess it does depend on the army though.

Purgators can take 4 heavy weapon per squad, and paladins can take 2 for every 10 man. they are both made out of the same sprues as regular termintors and strikes. And don't come with multiple psycannons, psi lancers and incinerators.

For a strike or termintor unit that was running with one it doesn't matter as much, because they run with 1 per 5 anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
then I've got some bridged I need to sell. Interested?

Well, I am rather fond of bridges.

Wait so this is world wide joke? Because in Poland we had this dude that was running Warsaw, and among many scummy things he did, one of the main things that makes him rich to this day, was the fact that he as the mayor of Warsaw sold the rights to both pices of land that a new just build bridge was attached to, so every year the city pays him milions for the cars that drive through his propery to use the bridge. I mind blown that stuff like that was done all around the world too. And people say you can't learn interesting things on the forums.

Daedalus: Oh, I don't think it's a money making thing. I am not sure why they are doing it, it might have been to ensure people can't build illegal units by mistake?

A lot of companies, parties or even countries consider money that does not go to them, as money lost.
And it would be a wierd thing to do anyway, because of GW is worried new players will build illegal units, they should be worried they should do the same for bad options for those units. If , to use the newest examples, the dark lance exist , other weapons should not exist as arment for the raider.

Karol wrote:

Wait so this is world wide joke? Because in Poland we had this dude that was running Warsaw, and among many scummy things he did, one of the main things that makes him rich to this day, was the fact that he as the mayor of Warsaw sold the rights to both pices of land that a new just build bridge was attached to, so every year the city pays him milions for the cars that drive through his propery to use the bridge. I mind blown that stuff like that was done all around the world too. And people say you can't learn interesting things on the forums.

Hah, well, to 'having a bridge to sell' is a phrase used when you think someone is gullible, because you don't actually have a bridge to sell.

Your example is different, but interesting nonetheless.

GW will be flush with cash from the extra revenue of people... not buying the extra guns from anyone?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
GW will be flush with cash from the extra revenue of people... not buying the extra guns from anyone?

i guess forcing competition out of the market has long term benefits and makes players more insultated since they don't need to search for bits and maybee stumble over 3rd parties? except i doubt that the goodwill lost via this decision will help them longterm