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 Gert wrote:
Their manufacturing capability is still going to be much less than a Mechanicus Forgeworld that has the backing of the Imperium. Regardless CSM shouldn't get a free pass on things like Laser Destroyer Vindicators or Sicarans because they're old, these same weapons are going to be difficult to maintain for a Loyalist Chapter with access to the secrets of Mars let alone a CSM Warband who may or may not have a pact with Mechanicum Forges.

The Dark Mechanicus has access to things that Mars doesn't. The Legions took a lot of STCs into the Eye with them, and destroyed the Imperial STCs on their way out, or filled them with so much static code that they were useless.

I must have missed the part where Konrad Curze turned his Legion into the ultimate terror weapon that would have planets surrendering merely at the mention of the NL. I must have missed the part where the NL adorn their armour and equipment with flayed skin, severed heads and body parts to incite terror in their enemies. The entire culture and tactics of the NL is based around fear and terror, pretending otherwise shows you have no idea what they are about.

The mechanic of reducing morale was introduced in 8th, having the FEAR USR was introduced in Traitor Legions, it didn't exist before that.

Its how they were handled 6 editions ago in an entirely different game. Units that might have once been exclusive such as Vindicators and Cultists are freely available to any Legion or Chapter that wants them. I want to go back to my point as well. Why should the WB not get access to Plague Marines? Why should the IW not get access to Berzerkers? IW love sieges and breaching the walls and slaughtering the defenders within is a highlight of that. What if some CSM love the slaughter so much they dedicate themselves to Khorne to make that slaughter better?
I've never used the 3.5 Codex and I've only seen people on the internet rave about how it was perfect in every way. I'm going to take that with a grain of salt just like I take all opinions I see online.
However, if your solution to giving the Legions character is to strip choice from the player then your solution is bad.

I didn't think you ever used 3.5, I see I was right. They didn't get those things because they were something for the Legions and warbands dedicated to those Gods, and Black Legion. Not getting everything is how factions are set apart. Do you want Sanguinary Guard for Dark Angels?

 Gert wrote:
Its how they were handled 6 editions ago in an entirely different game.

I wouldn't call it an "entirely" different game.

And framing it as "6 editions ago" is kind of misleading...

What's 9-3? If you want me to use something else, the game is entirely different from the one being played two decades ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Dark Mechanicus has access to things that Mars doesn't. The Legions took a lot of STCs into the Eye with them, and destroyed the Imperial STCs on their way out, or filled them with so much static code that they were useless.

So the Loyalists replaced the old ruined tech with new tech. And somehow 10k years in literal hell with actual demonic possessions means that CSM are fine and dandy to use ancient and complicated tech. Mk.

The mechanic of reducing morale was introduced in 8th, having the FEAR USR was introduced in Traitor Legions, it didn't exist before that.

So prior to 8th edition, the tactics and culture of the NL were badly represented. Cool.

I didn't think you ever used 3.5, I see I was right. They didn't get those things because they were something for the Legions and warbands dedicated to those Gods, and Black Legion. Not getting everything is how factions are set apart. Do you want Sanguinary Guard for Dark Angels?

Again, what prevents an IW from becoming a Berzerker? What stops a NL from becoming a Noise Marine? And no, unit restrictions are not what sets factions apart, rules that portray their culture and tactics are. IW are defined by their love and affinity of sieges, the WB dedicate themselves to the Gods, the NL are terror troops who revel in sowing fear, the AL are sneaky spies with vast cultist networks. The only sub-faction I can think of that actively prevents players from taking units is the Farsight Enclaves which can't take Ethereals because the Enclaves specifically exist because they reject the Ethereals.
Sanguinary Guard wouldn't make sense in the DA because you don't become a Sanguinary Guard by dedicating yourself to a God of Chaos unlike becoming a Berzerker or Plague Marine. A Sanguinary Guard is a 1st Company Veteran elevated to an even higher standing whereas a Berzerker could be some random mook who just got angry enough that they fell to Khorne.

I don't think any rule prevents an IW from becoming a Bezerker or a NL from becoming a Noise Marine. They just can't take those units as troops. AFAIK the only 2 CSM legions that are restricted in unit selection are Emp's Children and World Eaters.

I have no problem with limiting some choices from various Legions as long as there is some compensation for that restriction (either giving other exclusive choices or maybe lowering the cost of certain units/weapons for that particular Legion).Can you see Noise Marines in a NL detachment? Sure, but you should see more Noise Marines in an Emp's Children detachment than the NL detachment.

 Gert wrote:
So the Loyalists replaced the old ruined tech with new tech. And somehow 10k years in literal hell with actual demonic possessions means that CSM are fine and dandy to use ancient and complicated tech. Mk.

That's not how the Admech works and you know it. They don't "make new tech", they use what already exists or what they discover. Cawl is a different story, but he uses his own tech, not older tech. And yes, according to IA13, the Dark Mechanicus have preserved many of those older technologies in the Eye, and are still using them. Along with daemonic derived technology.

So prior to 8th edition, the tactics and culture of the NL were badly represented. Cool.

A matter of opinion. I preferred lots of Veteran Abilities, no Marks, and few to no daemons to Black Legion but SCARY myself. Your welcome to your opinion though.

Again, what prevents an IW from becoming a Berzerker? What stops a NL from becoming a Noise Marine? And no, unit restrictions are not what sets factions apart, rules that portray their culture and tactics are. IW are defined by their love and affinity of sieges, the WB dedicate themselves to the Gods, the NL are terror troops who revel in sowing fear, the AL are sneaky spies with vast cultist networks. The only sub-faction I can think of that actively prevents players from taking units is the Farsight Enclaves which can't take Ethereals because the Enclaves specifically exist because they reject the Ethereals.
Sanguinary Guard wouldn't make sense in the DA because you don't become a Sanguinary Guard by dedicating yourself to a God of Chaos unlike becoming a Berzerker or Plague Marine. A Sanguinary Guard is a 1st Company Veteran elevated to an even higher standing whereas a Berzerker could be some random mook who just got angry enough that they fell to Khorne.

Being a Berzerker requires worshipping Khorne, and all of the Legions don't worship the Chaos Gods, some just use them as tools.

You seem to prefer the paradigm that gw adopted in the 4th edition CSM codex and, unfortunately, stuck with. But some of us prefer what we had in 3.5. It's understandable, you can't miss the taste of ice cream if you've never tasted it.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Gert wrote:So Xana I was able to produce Ordinatus engines when it was supplied by the Imperial warmachine. It was also razed by loyalist forces during the Heresy.
Xana II is a different place and is now supplied by CSM warbands.
Massive warmachine capable of supplying half the Galaxy at the same time VS raiders who have to steal to survive.

Xana II produces Hell Blades, Hell Talons, and Thunderhawks from an actual STC template. Land Raiders shouldn't be a problem, considering the Legions took most of the STCs for Land Raiders with them from Anvillus IX. The Dark Mechanicus produces most of the Land Raiders for the Legions, using it as a bargaining chip with the Legions.

abd a bargining chip only remains one if you're being stingy with it. Chances are they only produce a small number of Land Raiders and dole those out only to select chaos warbands that do them favors. Also "we have the STC" doesn't really mean as much with the dark mechanicus as it does with the Imperium, as they're much more willing to experiment etc.

personally I see your average warband procuring stuff from the dark mech as going a little like this.


"Hi Welcome to DarkMech-Mart How may we help you today?"
"Hi, my Warband just had a rough fight with the Imperial and lost some hardware, I'm looking to get some replacements. we need 10 Predator Battletanks 5 Demolishers and 2 land raiders. I know you have the STCs for these thiungs so what do you wanna trade"
"We don't have any!"
"Wait what? but you have the STCs"
"Yeha we do, but they're boring so we don't make many, and the only land raiders we even made went to Killjoy the Slaughterer a month ago"
"Ok, so I'll go without land raiders, but can you fill the rest"
"eh I think we've got 4 predators and a demolisher.... but we came up with some MUCH more intreasting stuff.... like this"
".... that's a box you bolted some legs and a canon too!"
"AND THEN PUT A DEAMON INSIDE!"
"...... I don't think it'll even work!"
"IT DOES CAUSE OF THE DEAMON INSIDE!"
"..... ok so. this thing works cause it has deamons in it... I guess I can take some of those instead of demolishers..... but I still need those predators"
"we don't have eneugh but... HERE'S A GIANT DINOSAUR WITH GUNS AND A DEAMON INSIDE!!"
"......... *sighs*"

And thus the Warband of Tim the average replaced their predators and demolishers lost on the field of conflict with Forgefiends and Defilers




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
So the Loyalists replaced the old ruined tech with new tech. And somehow 10k years in literal hell with actual demonic possessions means that CSM are fine and dandy to use ancient and complicated tech. Mk.

That's not how the Admech works and you know it. They don't "make new tech", they use what already exists or what they discover. Cawl is a different story, but he uses his own tech, not older tech. And yes, according to IA13, the Dark Mechanicus have preserved many of those older technologies in the Eye, and are still using them. Along with daemonic derived technology.

So prior to 8th edition, the tactics and culture of the NL were badly represented. Cool.

A matter of opinion. I preferred lots of Veteran Abilities, no Marks, and few to no daemons to Black Legion but SCARY myself. Your welcome to your opinion though.

Again, what prevents an IW from becoming a Berzerker? What stops a NL from becoming a Noise Marine? And no, unit restrictions are not what sets factions apart, rules that portray their culture and tactics are. IW are defined by their love and affinity of sieges, the WB dedicate themselves to the Gods, the NL are terror troops who revel in sowing fear, the AL are sneaky spies with vast cultist networks. The only sub-faction I can think of that actively prevents players from taking units is the Farsight Enclaves which can't take Ethereals because the Enclaves specifically exist because they reject the Ethereals.
Sanguinary Guard wouldn't make sense in the DA because you don't become a Sanguinary Guard by dedicating yourself to a God of Chaos unlike becoming a Berzerker or Plague Marine. A Sanguinary Guard is a 1st Company Veteran elevated to an even higher standing whereas a Berzerker could be some random mook who just got angry enough that they fell to Khorne.

Being a Berzerker requires worshipping Khorne, and all of the Legions don't worship the Chaos Gods, some just use them as tools.

You seem to prefer the paradigm that gw adopted in the 4th edition CSM codex and, unfortunately, stuck with. But some of us prefer what we had in 3.5. It's understandable, you can't miss the taste of ice cream if you've never tasted it.

yet again What stops an Iron Warrior from being a khorne Bezerker?
you seem to insist that "NO IRON WARRIOR CAN EVER FOLLOW A GOD" but that's not how it works. the unaligned legions aren';t notable for "being atheists" or "refusing to worship the gods" they just don't have a single god all of them follow.
There are ABSOLUTELY going to be Khornites among the iron warriors. there are ABSOLUTELY going to be Nurgle followers (plague and siege camps are old friends) absolutely followers of Slaanish etc.

 Gert wrote:
What's 9-3? If you want me to use something else, the game is entirely different from the one being played two decades ago.

The rules base has changed meaning one is not compatible with the other, but to call them "entirely different" simply isn't true. And quoting how long it's been since the book came out doesn't really change anything, especially given how quickly rules cycle through these days.

Essentially it's a kind of style over substance fallacy. Rather than talking about the points he raised, you just said "It's old!" and figured that was enough.

BrianDavion wrote:
abd a bargining chip only remains one if you're being stingy with it. Chances are they only produce a small number of Land Raiders and dole those out only to select chaos warbands that do them favors. Also "we have the STC" doesn't really mean as much with the dark mechanicus as it does with the Imperium, as they're much more willing to experiment etc.

personally I see your average warband procuring stuff from the dark mech as going a little like this.


"Hi Welcome to DarkMech-Mart How may we help you today?"
"Hi, my Warband just had a rough fight with the Imperial and lost some hardware, I'm looking to get some replacements. we need 10 Predator Battletanks 5 Demolishers and 2 land raiders. I know you have the STCs for these thiungs so what do you wanna trade"
"We don't have any!"
"Wait what? but you have the STCs"
"Yeha we do, but they're boring so we don't make many, and the only land raiders we even made went to Killjoy the Slaughterer a month ago"
"Ok, so I'll go without land raiders, but can you fill the rest"
"eh I think we've got 4 predators and a demolisher.... but we came up with some MUCH more intreasting stuff.... like this"
".... that's a box you bolted some legs and a canon too!"
"AND THEN PUT A DEAMON INSIDE!"
"...... I don't think it'll even work!"
"IT DOES CAUSE OF THE DEAMON INSIDE!"
"..... ok so. this thing works cause it has deamons in it... I guess I can take some of those instead of demolishers..... but I still need those predators"
"we don't have eneugh but... HERE'S A GIANT DINOSAUR WITH GUNS AND A DEAMON INSIDE!!"
"......... *sighs*"

And thus the Warband of Tim the average replaced their predators and demolishers lost on the field of conflict with Forgefiends and Defilers

Ok, that's funny, I'll admit.

From their blasphemous foundries pour forth all manner of constructs, from recognizable patterns of vehicles such as the Rhino or Land Raider to terrifying engines of destruction entirely unknown to the machine cannon of the Mechanicus.

Imperial Armour 13: War Machines of the Lost and The Damned, page 16

Sounds like they make plenty of both. Unless "pours forth" is a synonym for "trickle".

yet again What stops an Iron Warrior from being a khorne Bezerker?
you seem to insist that "NO IRON WARRIOR CAN EVER FOLLOW A GOD" but that's not how it works. the unaligned legions aren';t notable for "being atheists" or "refusing to worship the gods" they just don't have a single god all of them follow.
There are ABSOLUTELY going to be Khornites among the iron warriors. there are ABSOLUTELY going to be Nurgle followers (plague and siege camps are old friends) absolutely followers of Slaanish etc.

No, I don't "insist it", but gw has both of the times they've actually given meaningful rules to the Legions (3.5 and Traitor Legions). Again, if you prefer that the Legions remain a flavorless paste like they have been since the 4th edition codex your welcome to that opinion. But I don't.

There were Iron Warrior berzerkers in Storm of Iron. And the Night Lords have used possessed before. Trying to put the different CSM factions into nice and tidy categories just doesn't work. And I like the idea of Games Workshop allowing the players to form new narratives. Why shouldn't I be able to have Rubric Alpha Legionnaires or Plague Marine Crimson Slaughter?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
abd a bargining chip only remains one if you're being stingy with it. Chances are they only produce a small number of Land Raiders and dole those out only to select chaos warbands that do them favors. Also "we have the STC" doesn't really mean as much with the dark mechanicus as it does with the Imperium, as they're much more willing to experiment etc.

personally I see your average warband procuring stuff from the dark mech as going a little like this.


"Hi Welcome to DarkMech-Mart How may we help you today?"
"Hi, my Warband just had a rough fight with the Imperial and lost some hardware, I'm looking to get some replacements. we need 10 Predator Battletanks 5 Demolishers and 2 land raiders. I know you have the STCs for these thiungs so what do you wanna trade"
"We don't have any!"
"Wait what? but you have the STCs"
"Yeha we do, but they're boring so we don't make many, and the only land raiders we even made went to Killjoy the Slaughterer a month ago"
"Ok, so I'll go without land raiders, but can you fill the rest"
"eh I think we've got 4 predators and a demolisher.... but we came up with some MUCH more intreasting stuff.... like this"
".... that's a box you bolted some legs and a canon too!"
"AND THEN PUT A DEAMON INSIDE!"
"...... I don't think it'll even work!"
"IT DOES CAUSE OF THE DEAMON INSIDE!"
"..... ok so. this thing works cause it has deamons in it... I guess I can take some of those instead of demolishers..... but I still need those predators"
"we don't have eneugh but... HERE'S A GIANT DINOSAUR WITH GUNS AND A DEAMON INSIDE!!"
"......... *sighs*"

And thus the Warband of Tim the average replaced their predators and demolishers lost on the field of conflict with Forgefiends and Defilers

Ok, that's funny, I'll admit.

From their blasphemous foundries pour forth all manner of constructs, from recognizable patterns of vehicles such as the Rhino or Land Raider to terrifying engines of destruction entirely unknown to the machine cannon of the Mechanicus.

Imperial Armour 13: War Machines of the Lost and The Damned, page 16

Sounds like they make plenty of both. Unless "pours forth" is a synonym for "trickle".

yet again What stops an Iron Warrior from being a khorne Bezerker?
you seem to insist that "NO IRON WARRIOR CAN EVER FOLLOW A GOD" but that's not how it works. the unaligned legions aren';t notable for "being atheists" or "refusing to worship the gods" they just don't have a single god all of them follow.
There are ABSOLUTELY going to be Khornites among the iron warriors. there are ABSOLUTELY going to be Nurgle followers (plague and siege camps are old friends) absolutely followers of Slaanish etc.

No, I don't "insist it", but gw has both of the times they've actually given meaningful rules to the Legions (3.5 and Traitor Legions). Again, if you prefer that the Legions remain a flavorless paste like they have been since the 4th edition codex your welcome to that opinion. But I don't.

glad you found the story amusing seriously though, obviously the joke's a bit of a exaggeration, but I don't think the core thrust of it is likely 100% wrong in that the dark mech puts out a number of war machines but there's a lot of demand and production may not be able to meet it. and that the dark mech is more intreasted in persuing other lines of research etc then just producing more land raiders. especially as if Land Raiders are produced at just under the demand for them, then they'll be worth more.

BrianDavion wrote:

glad you found the story amusing seriously though, obviously the joke's a bit of a exaggeration, but I don't think the core thrust of it is likely 100% wrong in that the dark mech puts out a number of war machines but there's a lot of demand and production may not be able to meet it. and that the dark mech is more intreasted in persuing other lines of research etc then just producing more land raiders. especially as if Land Raiders are produced at just under the demand for them, then they'll be worth more.

Concur. As I said on page 1:

...the Dark Mechanicus is described as being more focused around delving into the areas of technology forbidden to the 30K Mechanicum, mostly the stuff that pertains to use of daemons and warp tech. The Dark Mechanicus would be less focused around maintaining 30K era tech as it was, than doing something to it that results in a new daemon engine or some warped half-flesh/half-metal hybrid like the Obliterator virus.

The Dark Mechanicus are not the same as the Adeptus Mechanicus, and in particular have doubled down on the use of warp tech, though they also do other things like dabble with xeno tech. That is why instead of conventional fighter craft, they produce things like the Heldrake, or the Hell blades (which are rumored to use xeno tech), or the BFG Idolator escort (which is rumored to also use xeno tech for its lances which outperform Imperial ones). Producing run of the mill Rhinos, Predators, Land Raiders, etc... while done is probably seen as a bit "meh". Like Ork Mekboyz, I would see the Dark Mechanicus Tech Priests as readily offering to "improve" them.

I would say it is more a lack of rules allowing for more representation of daemon engines beyond the existing designs given by GW.

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
abd a bargining chip only remains one if you're being stingy with it. Chances are they only produce a small number of Land Raiders and dole those out only to select chaos warbands that do them favors. Also "we have the STC" doesn't really mean as much with the dark mechanicus as it does with the Imperium, as they're much more willing to experiment etc.

personally I see your average warband procuring stuff from the dark mech as going a little like this.


"Hi Welcome to DarkMech-Mart How may we help you today?"
"Hi, my Warband just had a rough fight with the Imperial and lost some hardware, I'm looking to get some replacements. we need 10 Predator Battletanks 5 Demolishers and 2 land raiders. I know you have the STCs for these thiungs so what do you wanna trade"
"We don't have any!"
"Wait what? but you have the STCs"
"Yeha we do, but they're boring so we don't make many, and the only land raiders we even made went to Killjoy the Slaughterer a month ago"
"Ok, so I'll go without land raiders, but can you fill the rest"
"eh I think we've got 4 predators and a demolisher.... but we came up with some MUCH more intreasting stuff.... like this"
".... that's a box you bolted some legs and a canon too!"
"AND THEN PUT A DEAMON INSIDE!"
"...... I don't think it'll even work!"
"IT DOES CAUSE OF THE DEAMON INSIDE!"
"..... ok so. this thing works cause it has deamons in it... I guess I can take some of those instead of demolishers..... but I still need those predators"
"we don't have eneugh but... HERE'S A GIANT DINOSAUR WITH GUNS AND A DEAMON INSIDE!!"
"......... *sighs*"

And thus the Warband of Tim the average replaced their predators and demolishers lost on the field of conflict with Forgefiends and Defilers

Ok, that's funny, I'll admit.

From their blasphemous foundries pour forth all manner of constructs, from recognizable patterns of vehicles such as the Rhino or Land Raider to terrifying engines of destruction entirely unknown to the machine cannon of the Mechanicus.

Imperial Armour 13: War Machines of the Lost and The Damned, page 16

Sounds like they make plenty of both. Unless "pours forth" is a synonym for "trickle".

yet again What stops an Iron Warrior from being a khorne Bezerker?
you seem to insist that "NO IRON WARRIOR CAN EVER FOLLOW A GOD" but that's not how it works. the unaligned legions aren';t notable for "being atheists" or "refusing to worship the gods" they just don't have a single god all of them follow.
There are ABSOLUTELY going to be Khornites among the iron warriors. there are ABSOLUTELY going to be Nurgle followers (plague and siege camps are old friends) absolutely followers of Slaanish etc.

No, I don't "insist it", but gw has both of the times they've actually given meaningful rules to the Legions (3.5 and Traitor Legions). Again, if you prefer that the Legions remain a flavorless paste like they have been since the 4th edition codex your welcome to that opinion. But I don't.

glad you found the story amusing seriously though, obviously the joke's a bit of a exaggeration, but I don't think the core thrust of it is likely 100% wrong in that the dark mech puts out a number of war machines but there's a lot of demand and production may not be able to meet it. and that the dark mech is more intreasted in persuing other lines of research etc then just producing more land raiders. especially as if Land Raiders are produced at just under the demand for them, then they'll be worth more.

But wouldn't the same be true for daemon engines? Wouldn't Defilers be worth more if they're produced just under the demand for them? And which is easier to produce? A tank, or a mechanical shell that needs to have a daemon bound to it before it can work?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:


But wouldn't the same be true for daemon engines? Wouldn't Defilers be worth more if they're produced just under the demand for them? And which is easier to produce? A tank, or a mechanical shell that needs to have a daemon bound to it before it can work?

More than likely. Without a significant external pressure to oversupply, they would likely do just that and maintain an artificial scarcity. after all, its not like they are on the same team as their customers, is it?

that kinda feeds into the HH tech issue, as well. sure, they might have the capability to repair it, but can the customers afford it? what can they offer to get that one Heratek who actually understands how to fix it to go do that, instead of mucking around trying to attach a minor deamon to a boltgun so it can be have a bayonet that bites the enemy,,,,,

what can they offer to get that one Heratek who actually understands how to fix it to go do that, instead of mucking around trying to attach a minor deamon to a boltgun so it can be have a bayonet that bites the enemy,,,,,

Not blow his brains out.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No, I don't "insist it", but gw has both of the times they've actually given meaningful rules to the Legions (3.5 and Traitor Legions). Again, if you prefer that the Legions remain a flavorless paste like they have been since the 4th edition codex your welcome to that opinion. But I don't.

"Hey why can't I use this unit in my army"
"Oh because in order to get flavour for your sub-faction you aren't allowed to use these select units nor are you allowed to use these Keywords to get access to strats/relics."
"But why tho. Here's specific examples of my Legion doing exactly those things."
"Nope, we gave them flavour by removing your options. Enjoy!"

What would you give IW that they already can't take in order to justify them not being able to take any kind of God dedication despite the IW not only being CHAOS Space Marines but also consistently shown as being dedicated to a God/Gods. What about the WB or AL? We know you don't think that NL should be terror troops despite their entire existence as both Imperial and Chaos Marines being defined by that role so what about the rest?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Not blow his brains out.

Yes because threatening the Master of a Daemon Forge on their own turf where all of their horrific experiments and Daemon Engines are is a great idea.

 Gert wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No, I don't "insist it", but gw has both of the times they've actually given meaningful rules to the Legions (3.5 and Traitor Legions). Again, if you prefer that the Legions remain a flavorless paste like they have been since the 4th edition codex your welcome to that opinion. But I don't.

"Hey why can't I use this unit in my army"
"Oh because in order to get flavour for your sub-faction you aren't allowed to use these select units nor are you allowed to use these Keywords to get access to strats/relics."
"But why tho. Here's specific examples of my Legion doing exactly those things."
"Nope, we gave them flavour by removing your options. Enjoy!"

What would you give IW that they already can't take in order to justify them not being able to take any kind of God dedication despite the IW not only being CHAOS Space Marines but also consistently shown as being dedicated to a God/Gods. What about the WB or AL? We know you don't think that NL should be terror troops despite their entire existence as both Imperial and Chaos Marines being defined by that role so what about the rest?

What would I do? I'd allow them to take Cult Marines and Marks, but only if the entire army has the same Mark. No mixing and matching, because that's Black Legion's thing. So no making all of your shooty stuff Slaanesh so they can always shoot twice, and all of your fighty stuff Khorne, so they can fight twice. That's always been a power move anyway. Pick one Chaos God if you want the benefits it gives.

And again, Night Lords affecting morale started at the end of 7th edition. Before that we were the stealthy and fast Legion. Don't lecture me on the Legion I've been playing for two decades.

 Gert wrote:


Yes because threatening the Master of a Daemon Forge on their own turf where all of their horrific experiments and Daemon Engines are is a great idea.

With your fleet above him and you being designed to wage war an subjugate, of course. If local mob can force compliance from local officials, factory owners and even police, why wouldn't a grand warlord force some inferior being to do what he wants. The costs of repairs of the FW, demonic or not, are much higher then doing what you are asked for. Same way as in real life, it is easier to pay the insurance money, then have your store combust one night.

Why wouldn't this Magos have a fleet of their own or orbital defences? They have all the gear a Warband could need so not even including the defensive pacts the Forge will have with other Warbands, it will at least be able to defend itself.
And if your forces end up destroying the Forge or killing the very people you need to fix your stuff then now you have a ruined Forge, no Adepts and even more stuff that is broken with no way to fix it.
For example:
"I am Gertus the Stabber, you will repair my ships and my tanks or you will die!"
"How will I die?"
"We will bombard you with our fleet and engage your forces in battle!"
"With your broken fleet and damaged tanks. OK LOL. I've got ten million murder servitors and thousands of Daemon Engines plus pacts of alliance with the Black Legion and Iron Warriors. If you harm this Forge you will be hunted down, your ships will be taken, your warriors slaughtered and you will be rendered unto ash. What did you want us to do again?"
"Please fix my stuff I have slaves and raw material to bargain with...."
"Excellent *happy binary noises*"

 Gadzilla666 wrote:


And again, Night Lords affecting morale started at the end of 7th edition. Before that we were the stealthy and fast Legion. Don't lecture me on the Legion I've been playing for two decades.

Why not give them both? The minus to Ld rules with some rules that give them some sort of stealth buffs and some rules that entice people to run more fast stuff like raptors, bikes etc. Considering what is coming out for other armies lately , maybe something like extra move or relocation for FA options pre game.

At the same time IW could get something that makes people playing them want to use tanks. Maybe for WB demon units don't break the "chapter tactic" and I mean the regular ally one, not the summoned stuff. GW could do it on a page or two for each legion, and make them more fun to play. And it wouldn't be more unbalanced then what the best armies have right now as regular rules.

So your solution is to actively prevent those Legions from playing competitively? That's not fair nor is it going to ever happen.
The BL "thing" is poorly defined at best. They're the largest Legion but don't get benefits for including units of CSM in the army like Corsairs do, instead they can advance and still fire rapid fire weapons which feels more like White Scars.
As for restricting Marks and aligned units to one God per detachment, why? If the Warlord is undedicated then why shouldn't their troops be free to worship any God they want?
As for the NL, they're defined IN THE BACKGROUND by their capacity as terror troops, always have been. That the rules haven't reflected that is GW's fault. There is nothing to suggest that the NL would have any greater access to Veteran troops than any other Legion.

I think the problem is that you can't get your head out of the past and adapt to how things are now (except they've been that way for ages you just didn't look properly). Restricting units or competitive options to give character isn't a fair way to do so. Hobbyists and players should be given a base to work on and be able to make their vision of that base design. IW who use Sonic weaponry to crack open fortresses, WB who see combat as the truest worship of the Gods, NL who relish the fear of their enemies when they can shrug off mortal wounds, AL who use sorcery and magic to obscure their movements and actions. All of these and more should be options for a CSM player if they want them.

Karol wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:


And again, Night Lords affecting morale started at the end of 7th edition. Before that we were the stealthy and fast Legion. Don't lecture me on the Legion I've been playing for two decades.

Why not give them both? The minus to Ld rules with some rules that give them some sort of stealth buffs and some rules that entice people to run more fast stuff like raptors, bikes etc. Considering what is coming out for other armies lately , maybe something like extra move or relocation for FA options pre game.

At the same time IW could get something that makes people playing them want to use tanks. Maybe for WB demon units don't break the "chapter tactic" and I mean the regular ally one, not the summoned stuff. GW could do it on a page or two for each legion, and make them more fun to play. And it wouldn't be more unbalanced then what the best armies have right now as regular rules.

If they want to throw it in as a freebie? Sure. But I want our Legion trait back. In 3.5 Night Lords were the only Legion that could take the STEALTH ADEPT Veteran Ability, which was +1 to cover saves, because we were the stealthy Legion. Then 4th edition happened, and the Legions got nothing. Same for the 6th edition codex. Then in Traitor Legions we got the STEALTH USR, which did the same thing as STEALTH ADEPT, plus FEAR, which was useless in a game where almost everything was effectively fearless. Then 8th edition, and we got stuck with the useless new trait, and suddenly the Alpha Legion, whose thing was always INFILTRATION, got the stealthy trait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

What would I do? I'd allow them to take Cult Marines and Marks, but only if the entire army has the same Mark. No mixing and matching, because that's Black Legion's thing. So no making all of your shooty stuff Slaanesh so they can always shoot twice, and all of your fighty stuff Khorne, so they can fight twice. That's always been a power move anyway. Pick one Chaos God if you want the benefits it gives.

And again, Night Lords affecting morale started at the end of 7th edition. Before that we were the stealthy and fast Legion. Don't lecture me on the Legion I've been playing for two decades.

So your solution is to actively prevent those Legions from playing competitively? That's not fair nor is it going to ever happen.
The BL "thing" is poorly defined at best. They're the largest Legion but don't get benefits for including units of CSM in the army like Corsairs do, instead they can advance and still fire rapid fire weapons which feels more like White Scars.
As for restricting Marks and aligned units to one God per detachment, why? If the Warlord is undedicated then why shouldn't their troops be free to worship any God they want?
As for the NL, they're defined IN THE BACKGROUND by their capacity as terror troops, always have been. That the rules haven't reflected that is GW's fault. There is nothing to suggest that the NL would have any greater access to Veteran troops than any other Legion.

I think the problem is that you can't get your head out of the past and adapt to how things are now (except they've been that way for ages you just didn't look properly). Restricting units or competitive options to give character isn't a fair way to do so. Hobbyists and players should be given a base to work on and be able to make their vision of that base design. IW who use Sonic weaponry to crack open fortresses, WB who see combat as the truest worship of the Gods, NL who relish the fear of their enemies when they can shrug off mortal wounds, AL who use sorcery and magic to obscure their movements and actions. All of these and more should be options for a CSM player if they want them.

Do you actually think Cacophony and Fury of Khorne will survive in the new codex? They've been removing stuff like that right and left. We're talking about what's next, not what's now.

And I just remember a better past. You've been feeding on watery gruel so long you've started to think it tastes good. Ask any CSM player who was around for 3.5 if they'd rather have it, with its restrictions, or what we've had since 4th. See how many choose the latter.

See now you're just being rude.
I also play 30k where the Legion rules are exceptional better than anything I've seen in 40k including your beloved 3.5 Codex.
When I play IW I can play 100 different lists that all get benefits from their Legion traits or Rites of War.
I'm fine having a civil discussion but I'm not going to engage with you if you're just going to be a prat.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Like Elves in WHFB, there are exactly as many Chaos Space Marines as the story requires at that particular time.

Which, at the moment, is basically zero.

This basically. Its why arguments based on fluff are a bit meaningless.

At this point in the canon (which will be retconned tomorrow) I think all the old Legions are getting back together and organised, with one or two exceptions (Nightlords being one I think.)
I.E. Emperors Children were incredibly disorganized to the point of barely existing. But the recent fluff seems to be "Daddy Fulgrim's gonna get a new model soon (we promise), better fall in line".

Tyel wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Like Elves in WHFB, there are exactly as many Chaos Space Marines as the story requires at that particular time.

Which, at the moment, is basically zero.

This basically. Its why arguments based on fluff are a bit meaningless.

At this point in the canon (which will be retconned tomorrow) I think all the old Legions are getting back together and organised, with one or two exceptions (Nightlords being one I think.)
I.E. Emperors Children were incredibly disorganized to the point of barely existing. But the recent fluff seems to be "Daddy Fulgrim's gonna get a new model soon (we promise), better fall in line".

Yes we know that Eidelon has been trying to get the legion back together for a long time. It firmly felt that the Fabius bile trilogy was creating the background to allow GW to create an EC army at any point they desire.

Aren't the Night Lords uniting under Decius?

Uniting is a strong word. Some Warbands joined him in launching an attack on Ulthwe during the 13th Black Crusade and it was mentioned in Vigilus. However, there as as many NL Warbands that just want to go about murdering and sowing fear as those who want revenge for the death of Curze or whatever other grudges they hold.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Aren't the Night Lords uniting under Decius?

Maybe?:

Long scattered, they are uniting, warband by warband, in the name of some dire cause. It can spell only doom for the worlds of Mankind.

EMPIRE OF FIENDS

The Great Rift spreads panic and madness across the Imperium. The Night Lords are in their element, with many establishing small empires amongst the systems cut off from the Emperor's Light.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 8th edition, page 36 (both quotes)

Kind of vague. The first could be referring to the raids on Craftworld Ulthwe lead by Decimus.

From Vigilus Ablaze: Forces of the Night Lords:
"The Night Lords upon Vigilus were few, for the greater portion of their Legion was involved in an escalating war with the Asuryani, but they made their impact nonetheless."
Basically yes but no to the whole did the NL attack Ulthwe. Confirming they've gone to war with Craftworlders just not saying which ones.

I only skimmed the thread, so apologies if this was covered, but honestly, the biggest problem with Chaos (for quite a while now), is that there are too many people who have the opinion that "THIS is the ONE THING CSM should be."

Of all the armies in the game, CSM should be one of the most varied and flexible. Yet they are consistently LESS varied and flexible than their Imperial counterparts. It seems like each time they redo the book, they focus on ONE aspect of what "Chaos is", to the near exclusion of everything else.

Just look at this thread for evidence of this. "Chaos should have old, antiquated weaponry." Why? It's a HUGE part of the lore, that the Heresy Era tech is, by and large, SUPERIOR to modern tech. It's also a huge part of the lore that a lot of warbands are still sporting that tech. It's ALSO part of the lore that there are "Mad Max" style rag-tag warbands who don't have the ability to fix things, and really are running around with botlguns that have 2 rounds left, chainswords with no teeth left etc. So .... why should it be one or the other?

You also hear "YoU CAn'T MaKe THinGS iN tHe EyE oF TeRroR BecAUse DemONS!" Yet .... we see countless mentions of worlds given over to steady, stable production of war material. You also see so many mentions of warbands that have only recently gone traitor and would thus still have all of their Imperial gear in solid, working order. Where are they?

The whole thing about CSM form back in the day is that they were the scariest thing you could face due to how experienced they were, as well as how unpredictable they could be since they did not have to abide by the codex astartes and could bring ancient, terrible weaponry to bear. NOw they just have more spikes, worse leadership, and are, generally, less flexible.

TL;DR:

The problem with Chaos is that it's too often lumped into a single, general thing, and it's just not. We got some cool, fluffy rules in PA (albeit not all strong, but still - fun/fluffy). Hopefully the carry this trend through to the new codex so that CSM can finally be as varied and flexible as their Imperial counter-parts.

we can but hope. certainly, the 9e codexes so far seem to have given serious thought into making the armies fight like their lore says they should. Thus i am hopeful they will manage to give us a good codex CSM that supports multiple playstyles in a fun and fluffy way, even if not all of them are tourney competitive.