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BrianDavion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's like a minute into the video that he says he'd prefer it was a 100% narrative book... which I'd agree with, as I've said before. Any army rules in these books (if they should exist at all) should be matched play illegal, made specifically for Crusade campaigns done specifically in the narrative campaign the book is about.

thing is he says he'd prefer if it was a narrative book but the question is, would he have bought it if it was? Thats the thing everytime one of these books comes out the only conversation is "what are the new matched play allowable options? are the broken that I can use to beat my opponents? are they something my opponent can use against me?" there's no discussion of the story events or the narrative play stuff case in point the end result of the story gets leaked here and it's barely discussed.

So yeah GW's going to put matched play allowable rules out because thats what gets attention.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
yeah, but GW knows it will sell far more books if it contains matched play rules, without question. We hate it, but people who want the competitive edge just keep on buying it...

exactly this, everytime a new book comes out people want it to contain something new and compeitive, if they put out a book that DOESN'T, you see plenty of voices here going "ohh it's a waste it's not compeitive"

Maybe that speaks less about the community and more about the absolute crap quality of the contents of those books?
How many pure campaing Driven books does rpgs sell? How many people bought liber xeonolis or the Realm of Chaos books, pure non Game related books?
The fact GW needs to put (totally unbalanced even by gw standards) competitive rules for people yo buy their narrative content IS not something defendible or that one can Blame the community for.

At least with 8th GW waited for all codex to be out before coming out with Vigilus and PA. The did not had that decency with 9th

I know over in Pathfinder land the Mwangi Expanse book has been wildly successful despite having very few player facing options and even fewer that can be selected at any time other than character creation (it's mostly Mwangi-specific ancestries, one sorcerer bloodline and that's it). Make a good narrative book and people will buy it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
GW has shown they can do good campaign books on the AoS side; Broken Realms was great for both narrative content and a bunch of small updates spread across different factions to give flagging elements a bump. 40k has been... a bit different.

Yeah I don't understand why there is Warzone Charadon 01 - The Book Of Rust, a book that contains Crusade stuff for Warzone Charadon, and then also Crusade - Plague Purge, a book that contains Crusade stuff for Warzone Charadon.

If I'm missing something here, please let me know, because these seems exceptionally unnecessary.

Nah, you are absolutely right. There is no reason for the book of rust to exist. The narrative stuff should be with the Plague Purge book and all the other stuff should go into their respective codices.
I've never heard of that winters guy, but I feel the very same as him.

My local LGS put out a facebook message the other day saying that they're considering making the campaign books order only, meaning they won't stock them or even get any copies in unless people specifically order them. This is because interest in them has basically been non-existent in the local area which is especially noteworthy as there is a thriving and active competitive scene around here, with lots of players who have armies featured in the books.

I certainly don't know anyone, online or IRL, who owns the books. Even people using the rules are literally just using pirated pdf's or waha because they refused to spend £35 on the 4 pages of rules they actually want.

 Jidmah wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
GW has shown they can do good campaign books on the AoS side; Broken Realms was great for both narrative content and a bunch of small updates spread across different factions to give flagging elements a bump. 40k has been... a bit different.

Yeah I don't understand why there is Warzone Charadon 01 - The Book Of Rust, a book that contains Crusade stuff for Warzone Charadon, and then also Crusade - Plague Purge, a book that contains Crusade stuff for Warzone Charadon.

If I'm missing something here, please let me know, because these seems exceptionally unnecessary.

Nah, you are absolutely right. There is no reason for the book of rust to exist. The narrative stuff should be with the Plague Purge book and all the other stuff should go into their respective codices.
I've never heard of that winters guy, but I feel the very same as him.

I remember a time where i got laughed at for pointing at PA and vigilus and describing it as DLC...

I feel validated , a bit atleast.

also i doubly agree with his take on the fact that there are factions that haven't had a dex and instead we get dlc for already updated factions, DLC that is in essence just repackaged cut content.

Now we have chaos rules available before the release of 9th Ed choas codexes, will the rules in this narrative book be in the codex or be excluded?

I'm a crusade fan and want to have more rules for it, but the price to content ratio so far has been bad and I haven't bought a single book with crusade in it apart from my codex and supplement.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I remember a time where i got laughed at for pointing at PA and vigilus and describing it as DLC...

I feel validated , a bit atleast.

also i doubly agree with his take on the fact that there are factions that haven't had a dex and instead we get dlc for already updated factions, DLC that is in essence just repackaged cut content.

DLC aren't inherently bad. There is a big difference between getting DLCs some time after your initial product has been launched that add value and having a DLC available within days of the launch with stuff that should just have been in the original product(s).

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I remember a time where i got laughed at for pointing at PA and vigilus and describing it as DLC...

I feel validated , a bit atleast.

also i doubly agree with his take on the fact that there are factions that haven't had a dex and instead we get dlc for already updated factions, DLC that is in essence just repackaged cut content.

DLC aren't inherently bad. There is a big difference between getting DLCs some time after your initial product has been launched that add value and having a DLC available within days of the launch with stuff that should just have been in the original product(s).

True, i don't object to DLC on that basis, i however completly object to "cut content" DLC and DLC instead of fixing (e.g. updating all faction first before releasing DLC in this case)

And GW sadly has a tendency of the lower.
Further i also object to the quality of the DLC in case.... PA was a shitshow quite frankly, and so was vigilus.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
Now we have chaos rules available before the release of 9th Ed choas codexes, will the rules in this narrative book be in the codex or be excluded?

Excluded, because selling rules is quite profitable for GW.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Further i also object to the quality of the DLC in case.... PA was a shitshow quite frankly, and so was vigilus.

Agree on vigilus, but PA wasn't any worse than the rest of 8th

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Further i also object to the quality of the DLC in case.... PA was a shitshow quite frankly, and so was vigilus.

Agree on vigilus, but PA wasn't any worse than the rest of 8th

Oh please.... PA was Marines supplement, some broken rules for some , and a whole load of gak for most factions.

 Bosskelot wrote:
My local LGS put out a facebook message the other day saying that they're considering making the campaign books order only, meaning they won't stock them or even get any copies in unless people specifically order them. This is because interest in them has basically been non-existent in the local area which is especially noteworthy as there is a thriving and active competitive scene around here, with lots of players who have armies featured in the books.

I certainly don't know anyone, online or IRL, who owns the books. Even people using the rules are literally just using pirated pdf's or waha because they refused to spend £35 on the 4 pages of rules they actually want.

I've heard the same about the books not selling, at all, from stores locally.

I agree, I absolutely hate content cut and sold as day 1 (or close to) expansions.
But it sells, so they're going to do it.
Maybe in a couple of years they'll release lootboxes that contain special characters and [OP] rules, or random card packs which contain the strategems?

I laugh to hide the pain

My local group disagrees though, think these books are exactly the same as supplement books like Blood Angels or Space Wolves and so they're absolutely fine.
I must say this argument baffles me, but my group consistently comes down on GW's side so that aspect is normal.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Oh please.... PA was Marines supplement, some broken rules for some , and a whole load of gak for most factions.

Saga of the Beast was awesome for orks and the only bad thing I can say about War of the Spider is that it didn't last long enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I agree, I absolutely hate content cut and sold as day 1 (or close to) expansions.
But it sells, so they're going to do it.
Maybe in a couple of years they'll release lootboxes that contain special characters and [OP] rules, or random card packs which contain the strategems?

https://spacemarineheroes.com

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Oh please.... PA was Marines supplement, some broken rules for some , and a whole load of gak for most factions.

Saga of the Beast was awesome for orks and the only bad thing I can say about War of the Spider is that it didn't last long enough.

Most of the distaste for PA comes from players (mostly CSM players) of armies that expected their codex to get a total re-write that would bring them up to par with space marines 8.5 which, to be fair was a bit outside the scope of PA...

But imagine if the Space Marine Heroes came with their own rules, like Brother Castor was just a Tactical Marine with BS2+

Like the Imperial Space Marine from 7th with his super combi-gun that never ran out of ammo (back when combi-weapons were one shot).

 kirotheavenger wrote:
But imagine if the Space Marine Heroes came with their own rules, like Brother Castor was just a Tactical Marine with BS2+

Like the Imperial Space Marine from 7th with his super combi-gun that never ran out of ammo (back when combi-weapons were one shot).

With a game focused as much on visuals as 40k, I don't think they need to go down that route. Plenty of games get filthy rich just on cosmetic changes, while game changing lootboxes require more effort and have the potential to hurt you.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Oh please.... PA was Marines supplement, some broken rules for some , and a whole load of gak for most factions.

Saga of the Beast was awesome for orks and the only bad thing I can say about War of the Spider is that it didn't last long enough.

Most of the distaste for PA comes from players (mostly CSM players) of armies that expected their codex to get a total re-write that would bring them up to par with space marines 8.5 which, to be fair was a bit outside the scope of PA...

And yet F&F did rewrite Black templars and gave them content with the same ammount of pages how many other legions got?
To state that it isn't fair to expect that is a bit hyperbolic imo.

PA is the only reason Custodes are currently competitive, and it helped nids out quite a bit as well.

War zone charadon book 1 is on the 40K app, but book 2 isn’t yet. I’m assuming the disciples of belakor rules will be in the app including the army builder eventually so that helps me avoid buying the book.

So if they are relying on the additional rules to sell these books then Warhammer + subscriptions will undermine this

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Oh please.... PA was Marines supplement, some broken rules for some , and a whole load of gak for most factions.

Saga of the Beast was awesome for orks and the only bad thing I can say about War of the Spider is that it didn't last long enough.

Most of the distaste for PA comes from players (mostly CSM players) of armies that expected their codex to get a total re-write that would bring them up to par with space marines 8.5 which, to be fair was a bit outside the scope of PA...

My distaste for PA was just how milquetoast it was. It was hyped as the biggest thing to happen to 40K in forever, and yet was just a whimper rather than a bang, with fething NAME GENERATORS taking up stupid space in each one. Complete low-effort offerings.

I agree, I remember when they were hyping up psychic awakening, people were discussing it being this huge jump in 40k, perhaps every army would be getting new units with psychic powers and stuff!
Nope, not even close. Just more shovelware.

I'm still just annoyed that the Necron book, called Psychic Awakening: Pariah did not bring back pariahs.

What PA Necron book?

PA was a sham, and even as everyone knew that as the books got rolled out they got bought because of the competitive side of the hobby. The idea that there are some extra rules or corrections in these books that gonna enhance your armies performance is too much temptation

 Eihnlazer wrote:
PA is the only reason Custodes are currently competitive, and it helped nids out quite a bit as well.

PA was OK for most. These are not timed to be useful in the same manner or purpose.

I will disagree with the Vigilus books though. There is enough usable content in there outside of the specialist detachments. I have played many of those missions in narrative and if you pick up a 40K Risk game, you have a decent Vigilus map to run a campaign using the books.

To correct an earlier error: they did not wait until all the dexes were out for Vigilus. They did with PA (except for sisters, but it was weird because of the CA Beta), but not Vigilus.

Further, anyone knocking PA: it certainly wasn't perfect. But please remember that it was the delivery mechanism for:

Drazhar and Incubi
Jain Zaar and Banshees
Mephiston
Shadowson
Ghazkull and Ragnar
Aleya and Dude (plus Talons keyword and SoS strats!)
Ephrael Stern and Kyganil
Kyria Draxus
Fabius Bile

It proved that campaign books are a viable way to move models WITHOUT AN EDITION RESET, and as we are seeing, the edition reset is the thing that causes more problems than anything else.

I think GW released 9th so they could put in the 4 game sizes and Crusade; other changes could have been handled with a FAQ. Hopefully their plan is to use campaign books to support model releases from here on in; with the infrastructure they brought to the game in 9th, they really don't need another edition ever again.

I know, it's unrealistic to wish for a persistent edition; I drank the Kool-Aid when they made the promise for 8th, so I'm reluctant to set my expectations too high. But they really have created and established so many support systems for multiple ways to to play and game sizes that they'd have a hard time rebuilding it all if they choose to tear it down.

They have to know that edition churn could cost them quite a few of the new players they've gained. I consider them lucky that 9th didn't cost them all their gains from 8th. They almost lost me, and if there's another edition after this one, they WILL lose me.

And I've been with them since 89!

PenitentJake wrote:
But please remember that it was the delivery mechanism for:

Drazhar and Incubi
Jain Zaar and Banshees
Mephiston
Shadowson
Ghazkull and Ragnar
Aleya and Dude (plus Talons keyword and SoS strats!)
Ephrael Stern and Kyganil
Kyria Draxus
Fabius Bile

A scattered handful of special characters? Wow.

PenitentJake wrote:
It proved that campaign books are a viable way to move models WITHOUT AN EDITION RESET, and as we are seeing, the edition reset is the thing that causes more problems than anything else.

They've done campaign books and moved models in the past without needing to reset the edition. And besides, PA was all about building up to the new edition. It was intrinsic to the new edition as it was there to give every Codex an update prior to the new edition coming out.

And Deathwatch and Harlis got to be in WD rather than books.

PenitentJake wrote:
I know, it's unrealistic to wish for a persistent edition; I drank the Kool-Aid when they made the promise for 8th, so I'm reluctant to set my expectations too high. But they really have created and established so many support systems for multiple ways to to play and game sizes that they'd have a hard time rebuilding it all if they choose to tear it down.

I don't think anyone is realistically wishing for a persistent edition, but they could at least wait until the ink is dry on one before launching another?

BrianDavion wrote:

thing is he says he'd prefer if it was a narrative book but the question is, would he have bought it if it was? Thats the thing everytime one of these books comes out the only conversation is "what are the new matched play allowable options? are the broken that I can use to beat my opponents? are they something my opponent can use against me?" there's no discussion of the story events or the narrative play stuff case in point the end result of the story gets leaked here and it's barely discussed.

How much Winters/DZTV have you watched? I don't mean that in an accusatory way, just saying that the guy is definitely a consumer of black library/narrative stuff that GW puts out. I don't know about that book in particular but Winters probably buys plenty of GW stuff that's narrative only.