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Vatsetis wrote:
Thanks pals, you have brilliantly demostrated my point (even doe both of you have misquoted and misunderstood my analogy).

Actually I would argue that the las two posters have got so stuck in the sunk cost fallacy of GW "Hobby" (IE Branding) that they cannot see beyond the corporate framing.

BTW, I sometimes eat at McDonalds and watch reality shows... Nothing wrong with neither, but I dont fool myself when I do so.

And you'd be as wrong about that (with me anyway) as you were about UM Intercessors and IF Heavy Intercessors being similar.

I am not bull^&*%ing you when I tell you 9th is my favourite edition.

We done yet, or is there anything else you'd like to be wrong about?

Vatsetis wrote:
Thanks pals, you have brilliantly demostrated my point (even doe both of you have misquoted and misunderstood my analogy).

Actually I would argue that the las two posters have got so stuck in the sunk cost fallacy of GW "Hobby" (IE Branding) that they cannot see beyond the corporate framing.

BTW, I sometimes eat at McDonalds and watch reality shows... Nothing wrong with neither, but I dont fool myself when I do so.

Likely because the analogy as an extension of the original premise ( that nothing has any meaning, because it's all "fast food" anyway ) wasn't very good to begin with. It was demonstrated untrue and you still failed to appreciate any of it and insist that it's only branding.

But, we're just dumb corporate goons I guess.

Vatsetis should enlight the dumb plebs that we are on how real differences in a proper tabletop restaurant look.
Because so far he's just talking crap.

Sorry pals Im still lost trying to make my mind between the many options of Codex Mc Donalds.



PD: you cannot enlight those that prefer to live in darkness.

I think it was supposed to be an analogy about the difference between the quantity of choice and the quality of choice that's hard to back up in practice because the "quality of choice" is so subjective, and because the analogy carried so much baggage of snobbishness with it.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

However, I don't think more interesting unit rules and the more interesting faction rules we have now aren't mutually exklusive. Many of these special rules have been moved to strats(Lychguard shields I think) - you don't like that, I'm okay with it. I also think the whole aspect of moving core around... Well, this was interesting in 5th when there was a fixed foc, now just build the army you consider to be interesting, there are very little restrictions how you organize your army, still, Ravenwing pretty much has what you want, no? So it's not out of question we see more of that.
Also you don't have three Spore mines anymore, instead you got 3 carnifexes or 3 battlewagon types, looks like a sidestep to me.

Wargear and rules that should be always on are really stupid to have as strats. I'm pretty confident you're in a minority there.

I think you misunderstood me about the Core keyword though. You know how characters that have abilities that only effect unit with the CORE keyword? I can't use Marines as a great example because they the CORE keyword got sprayed around that codex like crazy, but lets say you want a kanoptek based Necron army filled with scarabs, wraiths, spyders etc.

You pick the a sub-faction trait that says:

Models with the Canoptek keyword also gain the Core keyword. Models with the Dynasty keyword lose the Core keyword. Canoptek Scarabs count as Troops as well as Fast Attack for the purpose of detachment requirements.

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS ONLY AM EXAMPLE, DO NOT SIDETRACK THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW THIS EXAMPLE WOULD BREAK THE GAME UNDER THE CURRENT CODEX

Its a few less layers of themeless, minor buffs to remember during the game and it encourages you to build your army into the theme of the sub-faction.

As for the bit about spore mines and carnifexes, carnifexes are also unfluffy as they suddenly use their arms worse if you give them crab claws and suck at what they're famed for doing (killing tanks).

PenitentJake wrote:

Only Drukhari can take multiple patrols without losing CP.

I feel obliged to point out that this rule only exists because the DE book was designed by a haddock (and a lazy haddock at that).

Thus, rather than giving the army its own feel (like the vastly better 7th edition Corsairs book it was pilfered from), it's instead only there to solve a problem that never should have existed in the first place.

Well certainly we are speaking about subjective opinions here.

Why is it snob to say that in fast food franchise restaurants there is the illusion of choice but the tastes are rather similar and the quality of the food is not the best? Its is sort of a truism.

GW wants 40K to be in the exact place of the BigMac or the Whopper... Its done by design, nothing bad with it perse. But just like most of the dice rolls in 40k are meaningless (rerolling for hitting, factoring explosive dice, rerolling for injury, save and then ignore wound its a very cumbersone way to decide an outcome) much of the "variety" between 40K units is sort of pointless (if only because 80% of the datasheet
Are sub par for competitive play).

Are you tellin me that McNuggets, Big Macs, Fish Sandwiches, Chicken Sandwiches, fries, apple slices, and salads are an illusion of choice because they're all rather similar?

Or are you saying that if you ignore most of the menu and compare only hamburger/cheeseburger options it's an illusion of choice because they're all rather similar?

Hey, can we drop the fast food analogy and stick to 40k? Because I'm having trouble figuring out if a milkshake is a codex, datasheet, or subfaction trait.

You forgot the Mc Rib... The Primaris of the sandwichs.

Rihgu wrote:
Are you tellin me that McNuggets, Big Macs, Fish Sandwiches, Chicken Sandwiches, fries, apple slices, and salads are an illusion of choice because they're all rather similar?

Or are you saying that if you ignore most of the menu and compare only hamburger/cheeseburger options it's an illusion of choice because they're all rather similar?

Hey, can we drop the fast food analogy and stick to 40k? Because I'm having trouble figuring out if a milkshake is a codex, datasheet, or subfaction trait.

He is saying that there is no difference between Void Raven Bombers, Ork Boys and Drop Pods, at the end of the day they all have wounds. The game would be much more interesting if Ork Boys had more abstract rules that required the controlling player to hip fire an airsoft gun to determine the outcome of the shooting attack, that's what the sophisticated games do.

Vatsetis wrote:
Well certainly we are speaking about subjective opinions here.

Why is it snob to say that in fast food franchise restaurants there is the illusion of choice but the tastes are rather similar and the quality of the food is not the best? Its is sort of a truism.

GW wants 40K to be in the exact place of the BigMac or the Whopper... Its done by design, nothing bad with it perse. But just like most of the dice rolls in 40k are meaningless (rerolling for hitting, factoring explosive dice, rerolling for injury, save and then ignore wound its a very cumbersone way to decide an outcome) much of the "variety" between 40K units is sort of pointless (if only because 80% of the datasheet
Are sub par for competitive play).

gak! So, when I have to roll a 7 to hit in Flames of War to do so I need to roll a 6 then a 5. I thought it was just to deal with varying probabilities of success, but all this time it was just because FoW is the Applebees of WW2 games! Thanks!

Actually hitting on 7s is a recent addition of FOW copied from old 40k editions... Its actually pretty lame (its basically wasting your time trying a hail mary pass with a 1/18 success rate in a company size game)

But what in the worst version of FOW is an exception... In one of the best 40K editions is just the norm (throwing dice in mostly un eventfull ways and follow the flow charts to remove minis from the table).

Everything can be made a flow chart. That's why AI exists.

I shoot my Panzerfaust at tanks! OMG flow chart! I shoot my MGs to pin you! AHHH! When will the simple uneventful rolls stop?!

Why can't I just play a game where I use my big brain to deftly outmaneuver everyone and then declare their units dead - not with dice, but by my cunning prowess! Silly plebs.

The lack of a pinning or proper morale system in 40k/9th alone... Clearly undermines the whole game... That you can only (with exceptions) neutralice an enemy unit by wiping it show the limits of the system.

Vatsetis wrote:
The lack of a pinning or proper morale system in 40k/9th alone... Clearly undermines the whole game... That you can only (with exceptions) neutralice an enemy unit by wiping it show the limits of the system.

I like choosing when my units fall back or take cover, I don't want to simulate what would happen if 50 Marines faced 100 Orks (hint: it'd be a slaughter). I want to play a game where I can choose what to do with my units and have some randomness to keep me on my toes and to give the underdog a chance. Saying that you have to wipe a unit out to neutralize it isn't really true since you can put enough firepower or a big enough melee threat into an area that your enemy might hide until they can saturate the area with enough units, you can also enter melee with a unit to force it to shoot the unit in melee rather than your other units or in some cases entirely stop the unit from shooting or prevent units from disembarking or falling back.

But that’s just a function of the fantasy of 40k. We have melee units. Expecting suppressing fire to pin units in place like real life is perhaps too much? Our version is to charge disposable infantry in to pin things.

Star Wars Legion has melee units and pinning mechanics.
In Legion you need to be a little smarter with melee units though, you can't just yeet them 24" across the board and pet yourself on the back.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Star Wars Legion has melee units and pinning mechanics.
In Legion you need to be a little smarter with melee units though, you can't just yeet them 24" across the board and pet yourself on the back.

bUt YoU cAn'T dO tHaT iN 40k iF yOu Do YoUr OpPoNeNt Is A bAd PlAyEr AnD yOu NeEd MoRe TeRrAin

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Star Wars Legion has melee units and pinning mechanics.
In Legion you need to be a little smarter with melee units though, you can't just yeet them 24" across the board and pet yourself on the back.

Hope some one mods Legion rules to use 40k minis/fluff... That would be marvellous.

Warpath, Deadzone, SW Legion, Dirtside, Stargrunt, Cold War Commander, Bolt Action etc.

but "this" does not work in 40k because it has always been different and it cannot work unless GW adds a broken version of this rules to the game (than it is the best thing ever no matter how bad the implementation is)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vatsetis wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Star Wars Legion has melee units and pinning mechanics.
In Legion you need to be a little smarter with melee units though, you can't just yeet them 24" across the board and pet yourself on the back.

Hope some one mods Legion rules to use 40k minis/fluff... That would be marvellous.

why?

I mean you can use the core rules to use 40k stuff, but to get this working you would also need to remove all the multiple entries of the same unit and than people get pissed because their special Marine unit is now the same as the other 4 special scouts units

people did this with all kind of rule sets (40k Bolt Action being very popular during 7th Edi) and it never worked because to remove the bloat from 40k you actually need to remove things
and people do not accept such changes unless GW makes them
Warpath FireFight was explicit written to make a 40k version of Warpath and people were angry because not every single unit from 40k was taken over and the 2000 points + free units from 7th edi formations was not a 2000 points lists (so people could not take 4000 points of units in a 1500 point game)

the same would happen with Legion, people want to play all their units with all the differences and than you end with something that does not work better than 40k does and people go back to the original (this is why OpenPageRules work, they are a 1:1 copy of 40k with some minor changes but without removing the bloat)

I've seen some Dark Eldar stats for Legion.

Kodos is right, most people aren't willing to sacrifice their special rules regardless.

I'd be tempted to give it a go if I felt it would be popular in my circle. But people here get genuinely angry at the suggestion of doing something like that (I suggested similar for Aeronautica using Blood Red Skies rules).

Love every single facet of 40k or GTFO is the message.

yeah, it is sometimes easier to get people into buying complete new armies for a new game than using different rules for 40k

which is kind of unique to the 40k community, no problem to get people using Warhammer or AoS stuff with other rules, or get people from historical games to switch, but 40k is different here

 kodos wrote:
Warpath, Deadzone, SW Legion, Dirtside, Stargrunt, Cold War Commander, Bolt Action etc.

but "this" does not work in 40k because it has always been different and it cannot work unless GW adds a broken version of this rules to the game (than it is the best thing ever no matter how bad the implementation is)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vatsetis wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Star Wars Legion has melee units and pinning mechanics.
In Legion you need to be a little smarter with melee units though, you can't just yeet them 24" across the board and pet yourself on the back.

Hope some one mods Legion rules to use 40k minis/fluff... That would be marvellous.

why?

I mean you can use the core rules to use 40k stuff, but to get this working you would also need to remove all the multiple entries of the same unit and than people get pissed because their special Marine unit is now the same as the other 4 special scouts units

people did this with all kind of rule sets (40k Bolt Action being very popular during 7th Edi) and it never worked because to remove the bloat from 40k you actually need to remove things
and people do not accept such changes unless GW makes them
Warpath FireFight was explicit written to make a 40k version of Warpath and people were angry because not every single unit from 40k was taken over and the 2000 points + free units from 7th edi formations was not a 2000 points lists (so people could not take 4000 points of units in a 1500 point game)

the same would happen with Legion, people want to play all their units with all the differences and than you end with something that does not work better than 40k does and people go back to the original (this is why OpenPageRules work, they are a 1:1 copy of 40k with some minor changes but without removing the bloat)

Well I suppose kids hate many restaurants because they dont have the happy meal toy and instead of nuggets they hace to eat some sort of meat that can be easily identified with chicken and the selection of sauces is limited.

Commercially my idea of a 40K Legion mod ia not viable but Its something I would love to give it a try.

 kodos wrote:
yeah, it is sometimes easier to get people into buying complete new armies for a new game than using different rules for 40k

It isn't. I've tried breaking groups away from Warhammer multiple times. Never works.

Vatsetis wrote:
Well I suppose kids hate many restaurants because they dont have the happy meal toy and instead of nuggets they hace to eat some sort of meat that can be easily identified with chicken and the selection of sauces is limited.

yeah, this is happening

 Sim-Life wrote:

 kodos wrote:
yeah, it is sometimes easier to get people into buying complete new armies for a new game than using different rules for 40k

It isn't. I've tried breaking groups away from Warhammer multiple times. Never works.

Yep, getting some people to play even with houserules can be a nightmare, they are really very heavily wedded to playing 40k in one way only (to get ready for tournaments)

Or maybe, people are enjoying the game and see no reason to change.

If no one sees the problem but you, there is a non-zero chance that you are the problem.

But sorry, I didn't want to disturb the black knight party high fiving each other over how everyone playing 40k are dumb sheep blindly following the rules of the establishment.

And don't forget, McDonald's is garbage food for children. Noo, this isn't elitism, you can go get a fried egg AND 2 slices of bacon from a REAL diner for 5 dollars. That's home cooked! Children hate it!

I'm so lost in this analogy, none of it makes any sense. Is Star Wars Legion the cheap diner? Or is it a fancy restaurant? If GW is McDonald's then why is it more expensive than many of the alternatives? Is GW a McDonald's that prices itself like a Michelin 5 Star? Why is different sauces an illusion of choice? Is Buffalo Wild Wings a "lesser" restaurant because 99% of the menu is just different sauces for chicken?

Which tabletop game is Buffalo Wild Wings? Is Subway superior to McDonald's because they make the food in front of you? If I just want a burger and fries and decide to go to McDonald's instead of Charlie's Steakhouse am I a child?

I'm so glad that the "black knights" as Jidmah puts it understand this so clearly

 Sim-Life wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Star Wars Legion has melee units and pinning mechanics.
In Legion you need to be a little smarter with melee units though, you can't just yeet them 24" across the board and pet yourself on the back.

bUt YoU cAn'T dO tHaT iN 40k iF yOu Do YoUr OpPoNeNt Is A bAd PlAyEr AnD yOu NeEd MoRe TeRrAin

Hi, Mr. Opponent. Do you have any methods to do a turn 1 charge?
You do?
Ok, I will make a contentious decision to not deploy in a manner that makes the choice easy for you either by feeding you chaff, as that has been a thing for a very long time in 40K, or by setting my models back or opting to use more reserves.
Thanks, Mr. Opponent. It's almost like I have choices and asking a quick question helps me prevent getting tabled.