Jidmah wrote:
Or maybe, people are enjoying the game and see no reason to change.

If no one sees the problem but you, there is a non-zero chance that you are the problem.

But sorry, I didn't want to disturb the black knight party high fiving each other over how everyone playing 40k are dumb sheep blindly following the rules of the establishment.

Rihgu wrote:
And don't forget, McDonald's is garbage food for children. Noo, this isn't elitism, you can go get a fried egg AND 2 slices of bacon from a REAL diner for 5 dollars. That's home cooked! Children hate it!

I'm so lost in this analogy, none of it makes any sense. Is Star Wars Legion the cheap diner? Or is it a fancy restaurant? If GW is McDonald's then why is it more expensive than many of the alternatives? Is GW a McDonald's that prices itself like a Michelin 5 Star? Why is different sauces an illusion of choice? Is Buffalo Wild Wings a "lesser" restaurant because 99% of the menu is just different sauces for chicken?

Which tabletop game is Buffalo Wild Wings? Is Subway superior to McDonald's because they make the food in front of you? If I just want a burger and fries and decide to go to McDonald's instead of Charlie's Steakhouse am I a child?

I'm so glad that the "black knights" as Jidmah puts it understand this so clearly

Vatsetis wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
And don't forget, McDonald's is garbage food for children. Noo, this isn't elitism, you can go get a fried egg AND 2 slices of bacon from a REAL diner for 5 dollars. That's home cooked! Children hate it!

I'm so lost in this analogy, none of it makes any sense. Is Star Wars Legion the cheap diner? Or is it a fancy restaurant? If GW is McDonald's then why is it more expensive than many of the alternatives? Is GW a McDonald's that prices itself like a Michelin 5 Star? Why is different sauces an illusion of choice? Is Buffalo Wild Wings a "lesser" restaurant because 99% of the menu is just different sauces for chicken?

Which tabletop game is Buffalo Wild Wings? Is Subway superior to McDonald's because they make the food in front of you? If I just want a burger and fries and decide to go to McDonald's instead of Charlie's Steakhouse am I a child?

I'm so glad that the "black knights" as Jidmah puts it understand this so clearly

You are just being silly. The analogy is very straight forward, you dont have to accept it but is no hard to understand it.

40k can be popular and "fun" for many in spite of their subpar rules.

That dosent turn anyone with criticism into a "black knight"... Look at the poll results 58/60 % find the current encarnation of the game complex/cumbersome.

 Jidmah wrote:
Or maybe, people are enjoying the game and see no reason to change.

If no one sees the problem but you, there is a non-zero chance that you are the problem.

But sorry, I didn't want to disturb the black knight party high fiving each other over how everyone playing 40k are dumb sheep blindly following the rules of the establishment.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I can LITERALLY see them not enjoying the game across the table from me. When the people NOT playing the game are having fun and the person playing is just quietly moving stuff and looking up to inform their opponent of rules or dice rolls with no passion or enthusiasm then there's a problem. And its not because they're engaged in the game, I've seen them engaged in other games and there's a big difference between when a game gives them interesting decisions and 40k.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I can LITERALLY see them not enjoying the game across the table from me. When the people NOT playing the game are having fun and the person playing is just quietly moving stuff and looking up to inform their opponent of rules or dice rolls with no passion or enthusiasm then there's a problem. And its not because they're engaged in the game, I've seen them engaged in other games and there's a big difference between when a game gives them interesting decisions and 40k.

Have you talked with that person about the lack of enthusiasm? There is a lot to consider before blaming core rules for it. Maybe they don't feel they have a fighting chance? Maybe they have no interest in 40k anymore in general? Maybe they had a bad day? Maybe they are stuck with a sub-par codex? Maybe they are stuck with a sub-par list?

Rihgu wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
And don't forget, McDonald's is garbage food for children. Noo, this isn't elitism, you can go get a fried egg AND 2 slices of bacon from a REAL diner for 5 dollars. That's home cooked! Children hate it!

I'm so lost in this analogy, none of it makes any sense. Is Star Wars Legion the cheap diner? Or is it a fancy restaurant? If GW is McDonald's then why is it more expensive than many of the alternatives? Is GW a McDonald's that prices itself like a Michelin 5 Star? Why is different sauces an illusion of choice? Is Buffalo Wild Wings a "lesser" restaurant because 99% of the menu is just different sauces for chicken?

Which tabletop game is Buffalo Wild Wings? Is Subway superior to McDonald's because they make the food in front of you? If I just want a burger and fries and decide to go to McDonald's instead of Charlie's Steakhouse am I a child?

I'm so glad that the "black knights" as Jidmah puts it understand this so clearly

You are just being silly. The analogy is very straight forward, you dont have to accept it but is no hard to understand it.

40k can be popular and "fun" for many in spite of their subpar rules.

That dosent turn anyone with criticism into a "black knight"... Look at the poll results 58/60 % find the current encarnation of the game complex/cumbersome.

Yes. I find the current incarnation of the game complex/cumbersome, and I think it has subpar rules and isn't fun. But I don't think it is a Big Mac, or that people are children for preferring different sauce flavors for their chicken.

There's a difference between criticism and "everybody who DOES like this is comparable to a child who only likes bbq sauce chicky nuggs, instead of an adult with a refined pallet who eats the finest salmon and steak".

Vatsetis 800120 11202316 wrote:

I think you missunderstood my POV... Anyway, whats the problem with 40K being like a Big Mac? ... They are products marketed in a very similar manner (altought GWs ask premium rather than basic prices)... Its a crime or a shame to eat a Fastfood Franchise restaurant? ... I do it with some frecuenfy.

Vatsetis wrote:


I think you missunderstood my POV... Anyway, whats the problem with 40K being like a Big Mac? ... They are products marketed in a very similar manner (altought GWs ask premium rather than basic prices)... Its a crime or a shame to eat a Fastfood Franchise restaurant? ... I do it with some frecuenfy.

a_typical_hero wrote:
For me the analogy falls flat as I connect "questionable quality or nutritional value for a relatively cheap price, but a great taste" with fast food, where the actual quality of the models that you buy is either among the market leader, or is the market leader. And you pay for that. A lot. And the taste of those models is rather bland.

Rihgu wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:


I think you missunderstood my POV... Anyway, whats the problem with 40K being like a Big Mac? ... They are products marketed in a very similar manner (altought GWs ask premium rather than basic prices)... Its a crime or a shame to eat a Fastfood Franchise restaurant? ... I do it with some frecuenfy.

You are very clearly looking down on it, saying it is akin to children. Last time I checked, "childish" wasn't a positive remark to describe somebody. Also, is 40k like a Big Mac or is it like McDonald's? If 40k is a Big Mac, why is SW Legion a cheap diner? Why are we comparing an entire menu to a single item? What about the nugget sauces? How do those fit in again?

Again - people can prefer different flavors, or eat at whatever restaurants and order whatever they'd like. I'm not going to yuck their yum. I personally am not a fan of 9th edition 40K. The difference between me and a black knight is I don't make tortured analogies to fast food to degrade other people's preferences.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I can LITERALLY see them not enjoying the game across the table from me. When the people NOT playing the game are having fun and the person playing is just quietly moving stuff and looking up to inform their opponent of rules or dice rolls with no passion or enthusiasm then there's a problem. And its not because they're engaged in the game, I've seen them engaged in other games and there's a big difference between when a game gives them interesting decisions and 40k.

Have you talked with that person about the lack of enthusiasm? There is a lot to consider before blaming core rules for it. Maybe they don't feel they have a fighting chance? Maybe they have no interest in 40k anymore in general? Maybe they had a bad day? Maybe they are stuck with a sub-par codex? Maybe they are stuck with a sub-par list?

Vatsetis wrote:

Its a crime or a shame to eat a Fastfood Franchise restaurant? ... I do it with some frecuenfy.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
A lot of people cling to 40k because they spent so much money and time on it, they don't want to discover that this other wargame is more fun and cheaper.

 Sim-Life wrote:
They're bored. I know the concept that someone might just not like 40k but still play it because of sunk cost is alien to you but thats all it is. As I said, we've played other games and I've seen them having more fun and more engaged but they insist on 40k for some reason. You really need to understand that sometimes you can't just talk people into your way of thinking.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
A lot of people cling to 40k because they spent so much money and time on it, they don't want to discover that this other wargame is more fun and cheaper.

 Sim-Life wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I can LITERALLY see them not enjoying the game across the table from me. When the people NOT playing the game are having fun and the person playing is just quietly moving stuff and looking up to inform their opponent of rules or dice rolls with no passion or enthusiasm then there's a problem. And its not because they're engaged in the game, I've seen them engaged in other games and there's a big difference between when a game gives them interesting decisions and 40k.

Have you talked with that person about the lack of enthusiasm? There is a lot to consider before blaming core rules for it. Maybe they don't feel they have a fighting chance? Maybe they have no interest in 40k anymore in general? Maybe they had a bad day? Maybe they are stuck with a sub-par codex? Maybe they are stuck with a sub-par list?

They're bored. I know the concept that someone might just not like 40k but still play it because of sunk cost is alien to you but thats all it is. As I said, we've played other games and I've seen them having more fun and more engaged but they insist on 40k for some reason. You really need to understand that sometimes you can't just talk people into your way of thinking.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
They're bored. I know the concept that someone might just not like 40k but still play it because of sunk cost is alien to you but thats all it is. As I said, we've played other games and I've seen them having more fun and more engaged but they insist on 40k for some reason. You really need to understand that sometimes you can't just talk people into your way of thinking.

You are not supposed to talk to the person to convince them that they aren't bored and indeed having fun, you are supposed to talk to find out why they aren't enjoying it anymore. Maybe a solution or compromise can be found. There must be a reason they lost interest. If you know why, you can try to accomodate.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
A lot of people cling to 40k because they spent so much money and time on it, they don't want to discover that this other wargame is more fun and cheaper.

And yet an army can be easily sold on eBay for just about what you paid for it. I don't see any barrier to people leaving at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I can LITERALLY see them not enjoying the game across the table from me. When the people NOT playing the game are having fun and the person playing is just quietly moving stuff and looking up to inform their opponent of rules or dice rolls with no passion or enthusiasm then there's a problem. And its not because they're engaged in the game, I've seen them engaged in other games and there's a big difference between when a game gives them interesting decisions and 40k.

Have you talked with that person about the lack of enthusiasm? There is a lot to consider before blaming core rules for it. Maybe they don't feel they have a fighting chance? Maybe they have no interest in 40k anymore in general? Maybe they had a bad day? Maybe they are stuck with a sub-par codex? Maybe they are stuck with a sub-par list?

They're bored. I know the concept that someone might just not like 40k but still play it because of sunk cost is alien to you but thats all it is. As I said, we've played other games and I've seen them having more fun and more engaged but they insist on 40k for some reason. You really need to understand that sometimes you can't just talk people into your way of thinking.

"Guy who hates Warhammer has plays people who end up hating Warhammer." No connection at all. Nope.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Who said I played Mr. Judgey?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Who said I played Mr. Judgey?

Ah, I took your sentence "I can LITERALLY see them not enjoying the game across the table from me" to mean you were playing them, but on a second read you were in the vicinity. My apologies.

I play way more than Warhammer as I suspect most people here do. Wingspawn is a fantastic game and I highly recommend it even if the theme doesn't suit a wargamer's sensibilities. Then there's Root, Through the Ages, Scythe, Castles of Burgundy, etc.

They all fill a different niche. Warhammer offers generalship of an army. Few games provide that at this scale and quantity and it's more than rolling dice - especially in 9th.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I actually have played Wingspan with one of them. He enjoyed it. I also played War Of The Ring, Forbidden Stars, Arkham Horror 2nd and Argent: The Consortium, all of which he also enjoyed. I also roped one of the very staunch "GW only" guys into a game of Dead Men Tell No Tales and he was more engaged in that than I've ever seen him in a game of 40k. But they still keep going back to 40k. The funny thing is if I hadn't seen how much those games engaged them I probably wouldn't have noticed the difference in attitudes.

 Blackie wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
A lot of people cling to 40k because they spent so much money and time on it, they don't want to discover that this other wargame is more fun and cheaper.

Well they can try different games using GW miniatures. Unless a significant part of their investment consists in GW rules.

Most players I know (and I put myself in this lot as well) that don't have any interest in trying anything else do that because they're not wargamers. They're main hobby isn't playing games, is spending time with GW products. Painting models, reading/watching lore AND playing the game. That's why it's hard for them (us ) to even play something different but using the same miniatures. And the game is good enough to be ok with it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
A lot of people cling to 40k because they spent so much money and time on it, they don't want to discover that this other wargame is more fun and cheaper.

And yet an army can be easily sold on eBay for just about what you paid for it. I don't see any barrier to people leaving at all.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This thread seems to have drifted drastically from its original intent, and we just have people ridiculing anyone who thinks 40k is too complex/bloated/unwieldy/whatever.