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You forgot lightning-fast reactions and re-roll wounds for Cult of Strife. Drukhari aren't strong because of gotcha stuff anyway, they are just undercosted.
Who is? The faction with the newest codex? But after they "gotcha" once, it doesn't work anymore, because you remember it after that. You touched a hot stove, you got burnt, you don't do that anymore. It's just memorization, and nothing helps your memory more than watching your favorite unit get nuked because you didn't know [FACTION (X)] can do (Y). The more you learn the better you get, that's true for games and life in general.
So why not have a million Stratagems? Why not make up new Stratagems as you play? What's the right amount?
Because a million is a "bit" too many to remember, and probably wouldn't fit in all of the books . And, probably for the same reason you don't get to make up your units stats on the fly? Somewhere between "more than 1, but less than a million".
Are we done being silly and hyperbolic now?
Between 1 and 1000000 is way too big a spread, I've said around 30, max 200. I just want you to tell me what is so great about having 500 Stratagems, how that makes the game better and why going up to 1000 is no problem. You think 1000000 is too many to remember, but I am sure there are people that would be able to memorize them and you don't need to remember them do you? You can just learn new things every game, continuing to get gotcha'd. On the other hand there are people like me who find 500 Stratagems too much, so where is your goldy-locks zone?
vict0988 wrote: If people could pick their own Stratagems from a set of generic Stratagems armies would get more flavour options, not less. If you wanted to study the best combinations of units and Stratagems in that system you still could, but you only need to read the core rules and the matched play rules, not 20 codexes and 15 supplements.
I really like the fact that all factions have sub-factions and that those factions and subfactions all play differently, so I was inclined to react negatively to this. I thought about it a bit more before I posted, re-read your post a few times.
Thanks a lot for giving me the benefit of the doubt, I really appreciate that, although I am afraid I do want to remove chapter tactics, super doctrines and unit Stratagems except in cases where they are needed. Let's say taking 1 Imperial Knight is meta, but taking 4 Imperial Knights is trash for some reason, GW can make a Specialist Detachment with some strong Stratagems to allow taking more than just 1 Imperial Knight viable without making the solo Imperial Knight overpowered. I would also generalize WL traits, because there are way too god damn many WL traits that are useless, the only thing I would leave alone is Relics. So if you play Ultramarines you have access to the Space Marine Specialist Detachments and Relics, Ultramarines relics Specialist Detachments and any unique Ultramarine characters, but you can take any combination of 5 generic Stratagems and use one of the generic WL traits.
That means you can take all-rounder Stratagems and a support WL trait if you play Ultramarines, or melee Stratagems and a fighter WL trait if your army is led by a great fighter and your Company are melee specialists relative to the average Ultramarine army.
a_typical_hero wrote: You guys in the "I need to know every rule of every unit of every army and all the stratagems and combos in order to have fun and don't get blindsided" camp really need to have an actual (non-tournament) game once in a while. Or maybe opponents who aren't donkey caves, I don't know?
I only play those games and for the most part I have tonnes of fun, but more thanks to me and my opponents working together to make the game fun than the rules themselves making the game fun. I am just lamenting that I cannot play competitively because of the amount of homework I would need to do to get into it, that's why I say all the time that 9th is the casual edition. I am also mad at how close the game is to being what I would consider perfect, a single Chapter Approved book banning regular Stratagems, WL traits, Chapter Tactics, Combat Doctrines, faction objectives and introducing a new set of Stratagems and WL traits and then a new balanced set of points that has been properly tested. It's not that large a project and GW have gotten the playtesting manpower for free, they don't have to keep deferring to the opinions of the janitorial staff on what should be buffed or nerfed.
You forgot lightning-fast reactions and re-roll wounds for Cult of Strife.
-1 to hit (or any other way to reduce/avoid damage) on a bike/fast unit and re-roll wounds (or any other way to increase damage) for a close combat oriented unit? Who doesn't have those? You should expect something like that even without knowing a single thing about that army.
Necrons don't have that, they have defensive gotcha Strats for Skorpekh Destroyers and Flayed Ones and LFR works on Incubi that aren't all that fast either, it doesn't work on their monsters which are faster than Incubi IIRC. Exactly how a Stratagem works also matters, whether it is -1 to hit, can only be wounded on 4+, +1 invulnerable, +1 Sv, matters more or less depending on whether you are firing S10 AP-5, S5 AP- or S4 AP-1 with BS 2+, 3+ or 5+.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 06:13:26
And it is true (being Dakka General) that the Matched and Grand Tourney players do outnumber Crusaders and Open war players, but we are not statistically insignificant.
I play at three separate groups that play Crusade and/or Open War using Matched play rules.
That poll doesn't leave room for that sort of thing so I'm simply recorded as "Open War" which would imply I play open play when I don't.
Most of those who only play matched and grand tourney are 100% casual players, those formats are simply the most common ones and probably the best for pick up games.
Players who go to actual tournaments are a tiny minority in the community.
Blackie wrote: Most of those who only play matched and grand tourney are 100% casual players, those formats are simply the most common ones and probably the best for pick up games.
Players who go to actual tournaments are a tiny minority in the community.
The Big Corporations are a tiny amount of the business and they dont even employee that many people... But they essentially mark the trends in the market and forced almost everybody to follow.
Ophrah or Taylor Swift are just two women but their opinions have much more impact than a thousand random people.
Cuantitative size and cualitative impact are different metrics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 08:14:03
Blackie wrote: Most of those who only play matched and grand tourney are 100% casual players, those formats are simply the most common ones and probably the best for pick up games.
Players who go to actual tournaments are a tiny minority in the community.
The Big Corporations are a tiny amount of the business and they dont even employee that many people... But they essentially mark the trends in the market and forced almost everybody to follow.
Ophrah or Taylor Swift are just two women but their opinions have much more impact than a thousand random people.
Cuantitative size and cualitative impact are different metrics.
In the tournament players case though it's more like the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
You forgot lightning-fast reactions and re-roll wounds for Cult of Strife. Drukhari aren't strong because of gotcha stuff anyway, they are just undercosted.
Who is? The faction with the newest codex? But after they "gotcha" once, it doesn't work anymore, because you remember it after that. You touched a hot stove, you got burnt, you don't do that anymore. It's just memorization, and nothing helps your memory more than watching your favorite unit get nuked because you didn't know [FACTION (X)] can do (Y). The more you learn the better you get, that's true for games and life in general.
So why not have a million Stratagems? Why not make up new Stratagems as you play? What's the right amount?
Because a million is a "bit" too many to remember, and probably wouldn't fit in all of the books . And, probably for the same reason you don't get to make up your units stats on the fly? Somewhere between "more than 1, but less than a million".
Are we done being silly and hyperbolic now?
Between 1 and 1000000 is way too big a spread, I've said around 30, max 200. I just want you to tell me what is so great about having 500 Stratagems, how that makes the game better and why going up to 1000 is no problem. You think 1000000 is too many to remember, but I am sure there are people that would be able to memorize them and you don't need to remember them do you? You can just learn new things every game, continuing to get gotcha'd. On the other hand there are people like me who find 500 Stratagems too much, so where is your goldy-locks zone?
We don't really need to talk about hypotheticals. For 9th edition, pretty much every codex (except marines, of course) is getting roughly the same three to four pages of stratagems plus another one per sub-faction. For example, orks get 25+7 stratagems, Death Guard have 32+7.
Those can be broken down as follows: - There are a few ones (at least two, up to six) which you never need to care about because they are just list building options or work on deployment. Your opponent will tell you about them when presenting their army and it's written on their list or informs you what they are deploying something in a special way. - Minor buffs like re-rolls, extra AP, more reliable charges, more damage and the like. Most of these are on a level that they slightly fudge the odds in your favor, similar to 8th edition style command re-roll, none of these need to be remembered in detail. - Direct damage. Almost every army has some way to use stratagems to deal a small number of mortal wounds to something. You really don't need to know much more than that. - There are a whole lot of unit or wargear specific stratagems. As many posters never tire to say, these should just be activated abilities on their respective datasheets and can just be memorized as such. Which means that you don't have to know about any stratagems that are specific to units that aren't used. Which means that you can flat out ignore all stratagems that are for units which are not on the board, just like you don't need to know what a psychic power does that your opponent didn't bring. - Major buffs. Mostly 2 CP stratagems, with a few outliers. These are the ones you should be aware of, as they might cause you to under-estimate what a unit does and cause you to make bad decisions. You don't need to know what the buff is in detail is though. "MANz have a major buff stratagem for melee" or "blightlords have a major buff for shooting and melee" is all you really need to remember, if the details matter, just ask your opponent. Worst case, just assume that every unit has such a buff stratagem. For any 9th edition codex, you also don't need to worry about major buffs stacking too much, for most codices GW has either made these things impossible or very inefficient. - Reactionary defensive stratagems. Lightning fast reflexes, transhuman, smoke launchers, exhaust cloud etc. Yes, you hands down need to know what these do and which units can use them, no way around it. Otherwise you will use your movement phase to set up a shooting phase under false premises. Luckily, these are just 1-2 for most armies and usually are very binary good or trash, so you probably know all of the relevant ones after playing against any army for two turns. - Actual gotcha stratagems. These are usually very situational stratagems which enable a unit to do things way beyond their usual capabilities or allow units to act out of turn or deal a great number of mortal wounds under the right circumstances. Auspex scan, exploding poxwalkers or orks is never beaten come to mind. While you don't need to know the effect of these in detail, you do need to know what triggers them. These aren't as high in number as people would expect either, DG as the grand masters of gotcha have eight of those, orks have five. - Actual wombo-combos. With many 8th edition codices still around and CSM probably getting their new codex only just in time for the actual horus heresy, some of these will stick around some more. However, you usually have read about them, and there really are just 3 or four 4 in the entire game.
And of course, across all these you have a bunch of stratagems that are too bad or too situational to ever come up.
So, what DO you need to know about an opponent's army's stratagems? 1) What defensive stratagems they have, when they can use them and what their effect is. 2) The triggers of their gotcha stratagems. 3) Which units can have major buffs to shooting/fighting/charges/movement to plan accordingly.
For DG the answer to these would be: 1) Cloud of Flies, used at the start of your opponent movements phase, protects an infantry unit from shooting unless it's the closest enemy unit or you are within 12". 4CP for terminators. MBH can reduce the shots of weapons aimed at them by 1. 2) If you are locked in combat with DG during their turn they can grenade you in the face and shower you with mortal wounds. DG can make any multi-damage weapons "jump" like the flails did in the past. For 2 CPDG can spread their nasty plague fleet contagions from any one unit they wish. Poxwalker can do mortal wounds on sixes. Drones can do 6" heroic interventions. Inexorable units can reduce your charge distance by 2 after you have selected a target. After you have finished a charge move, all Mortarion's Anvil units can make a heroic intervention. Or, as a more simply summary - getting close to DG is a bad idea. 3) This is rather simple. All bubotnic astartes units can get major damage buffs, as well as the PBC for its mortar. All other units either get minor buffs or nothing.
For orks: 1) Beast snaggas that are not the two rigs can get transhuman. Grot shield make it impossible to target a unit until the gretchin unit is dead. Cloud of Smoke gives a buggy or kopta unit a 6" -1 to hit aura for other buggies and koptas. If your opponent has a KFF, he can destroy it to gain a 9" 5++ for one turn. 2) If you kill an ork character he can fight or shoot one more time. All kinds of boyz can make 6" pile-ins and consolidates. Orks can ignore reductions to their charge range. Snakebites can gain a DTW roll for 1 CP. Freeboota infantry can gain obSec at will. 3) MANz and burnas have major buffs for melee, beast snaggas can have mutiple major buffs against vehicle and monsters, deff skulls core and characters just against vehicles.
Once you abandon the idea of stubbornly having to learn a number of stratagems, it's really not hard to keep the hand full of stratagems relevant to your game in mind.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 08:44:17
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
If we are talking stratagems I am no longer sure which ones are current for my Imperial Guard army given its rules are a mix of two editions with some of the last no longer counting.
And it really isn't a 'casual' game because the special rules are in multiple publications and not knowing them means you will lose to someone who either has them in one new codex or knows them all.
Obviously all games are like that, not knowing the rules always puts you at a disadvantage, but few games make it quite so hard to find yours.
My go to comparison is always Epic A. All the rules I need in one location (http://epic-uk.co.uk/wp/), all the army rules in one two page quick reference doc, I can know mine and the enemies special rules in a minute. And the armies often match their background fluff better than the 40k ones.
So GW can definitively do it, they just won't for 40k and its a damn shame because I like the models and background and really want to like the game.
The_Real_Chris wrote: If we are talking stratagems I am no longer sure which ones are current for my Imperial Guard army given its rules are a mix of two editions with some of the last no longer counting.
And it really isn't a 'casual' game because the special rules are in multiple publications and not knowing them means you will lose to someone who either has them in one new codex or knows them all.
Obviously all games are like that, not knowing the rules always puts you at a disadvantage, but few games make it quite so hard to find yours.
My go to comparison is always Epic A. All the rules I need in one location (http://epic-uk.co.uk/wp/), all the army rules in one two page quick reference doc, I can know mine and the enemies special rules in a minute. And the armies often match their background fluff better than the 40k ones.
So GW can definitively do it, they just won't for 40k and its a damn shame because I like the models and background and really want to like the game.
100% agree. But if you are caught between a rock (GW being GW) and a hard place (your group sticking with 40k), there always is the option to compile those things yourself or at least search the web for someone who has already done so.
Hopefully it helps you enjoy your future games more
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 10:49:39
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "40k's not complex at all. I mean, take Death Guard. They only have access to 39 different strats that are broken into 7 broad categories..."
I mean do you not hear yourself?
Haha, well put, and a perfect example of what the disconnect is.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "40k's not complex at all. I mean, take Death Guard. They only have access to 39 different strats that are broken into 7 broad categories..."
I mean do you not hear yourself?
Thanks for completely misrepresenting my argument and returning this thread to pure vitriol instead of constructive solutions.
But clearly I used too many words, so here the the TL;DR for people who also feel like counting is too complex: Out of that unthinkable number of 39 different strats which no human alive could possibly all remember, you only need to know what two do exactly and what another 8 roughly do to avoid falling victim to any gotchas, assuming the relevant units/subfactions are even part of the game. In your average game against your average DG army you need to know 4 or 5. And that's for one of the armies which specializes in gotchas.
If that's too complex for you, I might suggest switching pre-school board games for your enjoyment, but careful, some of them require you to know both numbers and colors. I would also refrain from building or painting models, because that's not easy either.
Can't help people who reject solutions and demand that the world changes for them instead.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 12:47:25
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
If that's too complex for you, I might suggest switching pre-school board games for your enjoyment, but careful, some of them require you to know both numbers and colors. I would also refrain from building or painting models, because that's not easy either.
Jidmah wrote: Thanks for completely misrepresenting [the] argument and returning this thread to pure vitriol instead of constructive solutions.
EDIT: I also question the need for 39 stratagems if only 7 or 8 are have enough impact to worry about. If the other 31 or 32 have such little impact in the game that your opponent can safely completely ignore them without harming their chances of victory, then perhaps they shouldn't've been printed?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 12:53:18
Blackie wrote: Most of those who only play matched and grand tourney are 100% casual players, those formats are simply the most common ones and probably the best for pick up games.
Players who go to actual tournaments are a tiny minority in the community.
I do think people who go to events at all are probably a bit over represented here as that kind of involvement is also I'd imagine likely to push you towards an online community
I suspect there are still large numbers of GW's customers were gaming is between a small group of friends, maybe with some small local organisation that I think that is actually part of the reason for the love of depth of stat like rules. 40K isnt a massively complex game in its core rules and well suited to casual gaming but I think you have a very large depth of variables that can allow for variety of games even between the same faction. If I have a say Ultramarines and my friend has Orks and we play each other once a fortnight theres a lot of potential for those two armies against each other to play differently via troop choice, loadouts, strats, etc.
Blackie wrote: Most of those who only play matched and grand tourney are 100% casual players, those formats are simply the most common ones and probably the best for pick up games.
Players who go to actual tournaments are a tiny minority in the community.
I do think people who go to events at all are probably a bit over represented here as that kind of involvement is also I'd imagine likely to push you towards an online community
I suspect there are still large numbers of GW's customers were gaming is between a small group of friends, maybe with some small local organisation that I think that is actually part of the reason for the love of depth of stat like rules. 40K isnt a massively complex game in its core rules and well suited to casual gaming but I think you have a very large depth of variables that can allow for variety of games even between the same faction. If I have a say Ultramarines and my friend has Orks and we play each other once a fortnight theres a lot of potential for those two armies against each other to play differently via troop choice, loadouts, strats, etc.
That depends on the army. My Slaanesh Daemons lists can't really vary much - they have a single troops choice, a plethora of HQs (the hardest slot to proliferate in a list), one Elite, like 2 Fast Attack, and 2 Heavy Support (which are "chariot" and "bigger chariot"). If you add in "generic" daemons that can be Slaanesh allegiance, you get one more of each choice except troops and elites, which remain only a single option.
If, in a hypothetical local meta, my friends find a way to trounce my Daemons (or alternatively refuse to change when getting beaten repeatedly) then our games simply aren't going to be fun, as I am incapable of changing without buying a whole different army.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 12:59:34
If that's too complex for you, I might suggest switching pre-school board games for your enjoyment, but careful, some of them require you to know both numbers and colors. I would also refrain from building or painting models, because that's not easy either.
Jidmah wrote: Thanks for completely misrepresenting [the] argument and returning this thread to pure vitriol instead of constructive solutions.
EDIT:
I also question the need for 39 stratagems if only 7 or 8 are have enough impact to worry about. If the other 31 or 32 have such little impact in the game that your opponent can safely completely ignore them without harming their chances of victory, then perhaps they shouldn't've been printed?
Agreed. Effectively Jidmah has admitted the game is too bloated, which is exactly the point he's been arguing against the whole time.
The other problem with this sort of approach is that you don't know what you don't know, so asking the right questions becomes a gotcha in itself, where you're relying on your opponent accurately answering a potentially vague question. I've explained stuff to my opponent at the start of a game only to remember something much later, which isn't a great experience for them. Yet again, I'd point out that numerous other games completely avoid this problem by having all (or at least most of) the relevant rules presented to players at the start of each game and available throughout.
Jidmah wrote: ... people who also feel like counting is too complex
Jidmah wrote: ... which no human alive could possibly all remember
Jidmah wrote: If that's too complex for you, I might suggest switching pre-school board games for your enjoyment, but careful, some of them require you to know both numbers and colors. I would also refrain from building or painting models, because that's not easy either.
The pot called. He says you're black.
Putting aside that you are the only one going out of their way to insult everyone in the most ass-hole-ish way you can muster, let's look at the actual important bit of your post that wasn't just rampant insults and attempts to demean:
Jidmah wrote: Out of ... 39 different strats ... you only need to know what two do exactly and what another 8 roughly do to avoid falling victim to any gotchas...
So why even have the rest? You've failed to see the woods 'cause of all them pesky trees getting in the way.
My point stands: If you say that it's not complex and then proceed to list just how simple 39 separate rules divided into 7 categories are (and that's just for one army), then your own words defeat your base premise.
You may resume being a completely un-self aware jerk to everyone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 13:23:54
Unit1126PLL wrote: I also question the need for 39 stratagems if only 7 or 8 are have enough impact to worry about. If the other 31 or 32 have such little impact in the game that your opponent can safely completely ignore them without harming their chances of victory, then perhaps they shouldn't've been printed?
Despite my better judgement, I'll assume that this an honest question and that you are actually interested in the response.
So my answer is yes and no.
Yes, because a fair number of them don't need to be printed, that is true. I think especially codex DG has six or something (not double-checking) stratagems which are essentially "plague marines deal a tiny bit more damage for 1CP". Especially the stratagems I put in the "minor buff" section could probably just be kicked from the game an replaced with point changes or slight datasheet adjustments, almost everything the direct damage section could be replaced with wargear or rules or simply cut.
Outside of that, no that is not the case. As an opponent, you never need to keep stratagems like Champions of Disease or Tellyporta in mind simply because you don't interact with them. Your opponent will tell you that some champion has a relic or that his unit will arrive via deep strike, the stratagem itself doesn't matter. For other stratagems they don't matter because the units they are attached to are not part of the battle, but they do matter when they are brought.
So yes, 40k could do with a lot less stratagems. I have the habit of always putting stratagems I use on top of my datacard deck, which results into less used cards traveling to the back, while the constantly used ones pick up wear and marks. Looking at my ork deck from last edition roughly a third of those cards seem regularly played, while two thirds are essentially in mint condition. Anecdotal, but I'm sure that it's the same for many other people.
Either way, it doesn't matter because 9th is what it is, and neither you, nor H.B.M.C, nor Sim-Life, nor me can do anything about it. Stratagems won't be going away for at least another three years, if ever, and all further codices will follow the same design paradigm in that regard as the ones we have seen so far and worst case we get another pile of stratagems shoveled on top in roughly one and a half year when the successor of PA roars its ugly head to herald the next edition.
Which leaves everyone with just four options - just memorize everything, accept that you will be walking into stratagems you knew nothing about at least once, quit 9th edition for another game or edition or break down the complexity into manageable chunks. In the post above I described my approach for the last option, as the loudest voices in this thread want to continue playing for various reasons but neither want to do "homework" nor walk into gotchas.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: My point stands: If you say that it's not complex and then proceed to list just how simple 39 separate rules divided into 7 categories are (and that's just for one army), then your own words defeat your base premise.
That you assume that the list is just for one army is a dead give away that you haven't even bothered to read the post before being a dick about an honest attempt to break down complexity for people. You are usually better than this.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 13:36:03
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
"There is no bloat" to "There totally is bloat, but you can't do anything about it so shut up"?
This is without going into the argument about interactivity/the role of the player vs. the role of the cards in the game - or the idea that "I don't have to know a stratagem because that unit didn't show up to this game" which is farcical because I can't just learn and then forget things on a whim; I either know it for all occasions on the off chance it arises or I don't know it at all. Or it doesn't matter in the game enough that I need to know it, in which case - senseless bloat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 13:40:07
Sigh, that's what you get for giving people the benefit of doubt
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 13:43:14
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote:Sigh, that's what you get for giving people the benefit of doubt
How else am I supposed to interpret:
Jidmah wrote:So yes, 40k could do with a lot less stratagems. I have the habit of always putting stratagems I use on top of my datacard deck, which results into less used cards traveling to the back, while the constantly used ones pick up wear and marks. Looking at my ork deck from last edition roughly a third of those cards seem regularly played, while two thirds are essentially in mint condition. Anecdotal, but I'm sure that it's the same for many other people.
Either way, it doesn't matter because 9th is what it is, and neither you, nor H.B.M.C, nor Sim-Life, nor me can do anything about it. Stratagems won't be going away for at least another three years, if ever, and all further codices will follow the same design paradigm in that regard as the ones we have seen so far and worst case we get another pile of stratagems shoveled on top in roughly one and a half year when the successor of PA roars its ugly head to herald the next edition.
^this?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 13:47:27
If that's too complex for you, I might suggest switching pre-school board games for your enjoyment, but careful, some of them require you to know both numbers and colors. I would also refrain from building or painting models, because that's not easy either.
Or play Chess, Go, a horde of cardgames, Epic, Warmaster, King of the Battlefield, most wargames currently commercially available etc etc.
My go to comparison is MtG for current 40k, except you don't need to assemble and build models...
Warhammer underworlds is a great model and card game. 40k... could do with (for me and others like me), being more of a wargame.
But as has been noted... GW sales seem to be fine with the MtG style of gaming, so more power to them. Doesn't change my opinion that 40k as it stands is needlessly complicated but not at all complex.
"Transformers is the best mover ever made because it made a lot of money and got a lot of sequels. If you cannot see it you are too stupid to understand the movie"
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
kodos wrote: "Transformers is the best mover ever made because it made a lot of money and got a lot of sequels. If you cannot see it you are too stupid to understand the movie"
Someone tried that with a fast food analogy, and Jid and Dae spent several pages heckling anyone who agreed with it.
"Transformers is the best mover ever made because it made a lot of money and got a lot of sequels. If you cannot see it you are too stupid to understand the movie"
No, my actual argument is that if you don't like the Transformers movie, stop watching it. And for feths sake, stop posting 100+ posts a day on the transformers movie facebook fan page.
kodos wrote: "Transformers is the best mover ever made because it made a lot of money and got a lot of sequels. If you cannot see it you are too stupid to understand the movie"
Someone tried that with a fast food analogy, and Jid and Dae spent several pages heckling anyone who agreed with it.
More like dae and me trying to offer solutions which thousands of players are already using daily, while a bunch of poster are screeching about how the problem is unsolvable unless they personally re-write the game rules in their image.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 14:01:34
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
"Transformers is the best mover ever made because it made a lot of money and got a lot of sequels. If you cannot see it you are too stupid to understand the movie"
No, my actual argument is that if you don't like the Transformers movie, stop watching it. And for feths sake, stop posting 100+ posts a day on the transformers movie facebook fan page.
I did not know that DakkaDakka is a fan page were you are not allowed to discuss questions
as the topic is still "Is Warhammer 40k Too Complex? " and not "40k is not complex!!!!!!1111elf"
so if someone starts a topic "is Transformers the best movie ever made?", you will have a hard time defending that it is the best movie
no matter if you are on Facebook or in Dakka
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
No, my actual argument is that if you don't like the Transformers movie, stop watching it. And for feths sake, stop posting 100+ posts a day on the transformers movie facebook fan page.
How do you entice the change for the game to be the way you want it, if you don't happen to work or be a big investor for GW? The only way people can influance GW is to make the situation so unbearable to everyone, that the sells start to drop, and then will react. The only question is how long it takes to do. From what I understand SoB have been a bad army since like for ever. If 20 or 30 years ago, people that wanted to play the faction just all quit, and the SoB were never mentioned again, they wouldn't have a good codex right now. CWE, and eldar players in general, give show to their displeasure about the state of their model line. They do it every time, a new codex drops or new units drop. They even ignore the fact that their faction or factions are doing above avarge well comparing to others, as far as being fun to play. I don't see other CWE or eldar players jumping in to those threads saying that GW will update the model lines, when it will update it, and till then people should shut the hell up and only talk about how good and fun the game is.
To give a move example. If people haven't been out spoken angry about Justice League, there would be no Snyder Cut. Blizzard told WoW players that they "think they want WoW classic, but they don't". And here we are with WoW being carried by the classic subs for BC.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
"Transformers is the best mover ever made because it made a lot of money and got a lot of sequels. If you cannot see it you are too stupid to understand the movie"
No, my actual argument is that if you don't like the Transformers movie, stop watching it. And for feths sake, stop posting 100+ posts a day on the transformers movie facebook fan page.
I did not know that DakkaDakka is a fan page were you are not allowed to discuss questions
as the topic is still "Is Warhammer 40k Too Complex? " and not "40k is not complex!!!!!!1111elf"
so if someone starts a topic "is Transformers the best movie ever made?", you will have a hard time defending that it is the best movie
no matter if you are on Facebook or in Dakka
None of that... makes any sense. What exactly is your metaphor supposed to represent?
Which leaves everyone with just four options - just memorize everything, accept that you will be walking into stratagems you knew nothing about at least once, quit 9th edition for another game or edition or break down the complexity into manageable chunks.
So what is your solution?
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
. And, probably for the same reason you don't get to make up your units stats on the fly? Somewhere between "more than 1, but less than a million". 
