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I care mostly about effect. What is the effect of the rules and rules-writing on my gaming experience. Is the game spent looking up rules and having discussions about interpretations? Or is the game spent moving models, measuring ranges and rolling dice? For me, 40K 9th Edition has few if any trips to the rulebook. I might have to look up stats (like Wounds on a character or Toughness on a vehicle), but that's it. I figure I have a fairly average memory for a wargamer. I know my Strats and the most likely/most dangerous ones that my opponent has in his book. And if I don't then I learn them from hard experience!

I agree that 9th Edition has more "legalese" in the rules where they try to make it as clear as possible to understand their intent. Makes the rules longer, but we aren't having to look them up in-game in my experience. I am OK with somewhat lengthy, involved construction rules, for instance, since that occurs before the game with the luxury of time to read and digest.

Having said that, Necron Command Protocols are a "swing and a miss" in terms of rules. They are needlessly involved with a negative effect on the gaming experience. No doubt there are other examples out there.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Yeah, that Death Guard equipment option entry is a prime example of clean writing.

Ironically, it is a perfect example of what Scotsman said. There is no confusion of what you can take in the unit, is there? The wording is clear and leaves no room for it to be abused. Don't confuse extensive with clean.

That might be "clean" (sic)... But is just another overesized block of text to understand... And it gives no flavour or tactical options... It only exist for the sake of IP defense.

9th might be "straight forward" for WAAC, rules lawyers and ultradedicated tournament players... Yes its not like brain surgery or piloting a jet fighter... But is very cumbersome and unnecesarilly wordy for what is in essence a light hearted and cheesy tabletop scifi game.

Vatsetis wrote:
That might be "clean" (sic)... But is just another overesized block of text to understand... And it gives no flavour or tactical options... It only exist for the sake of IP defense.

9th might be "straight forward" for WAAC, rules lawyers and ultradedicated tournament players... Yes its not like brain surgery or piloting a jet fighter... But is very cumbersome and unnecesarilly wordy for what is in essence a light hearted and cheesy tabletop scifi game.

Yup, 100% agree. People take it waaaaayyyyyyy too seriously. Like 1000% more than GW do.

Vatsetis wrote:
That might be "clean" (sic)... But is just another overesized block of text to understand... And it gives no flavour or tactical options... It only exist for the sake of IP defense.

9th might be "straight forward" for WAAC, rules lawyers and ultradedicated tournament players... Yes its not like brain surgery or piloting a jet fighter... But is very cumbersome and unnecesarilly wordy for what is in essence a light hearted and cheesy tabletop scifi game.

Nice swipe at people there.

 Sim-Life wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
No... The TL;Dr version of Scotsman's post is:
The game is in the best rules iteration it has ever been, looked at from a "how clean it is written" pov and people play with a certain kind of attitude that's detrimental to both players having fun.

Yeah, that Death Guard equipment option entry is a prime example of clean writing.

When I say "clean" primarily I mean "without wiggle room"

To give another example from my recent game RE: equipment options: Submachine Guns and Rifles are the two different weapons that infantry can be armed with, they have different rules. The rules for which solders may take submachine guns are

"most nations involved in the mid to late stages of the war used submachine guns. Typically there was about enough for one in each squad, typically the NCO, to have one, but some units were entirely armed with submachine guns and others were entirely bereft. Submachine guns must always be modeled on units."

It's basically just a guideline that assumes you are going to look up what the concentration of SMGs in your theater for your faction are, and arm them according to historical accuracy.

Racerguy180 800120 11207488 wrote:
Yup, 100% agree. People take it waaaaayyyyyyy too seriously. Like 1000% more than GW do.

Imagine an item which takes you 2-3 months of adult salaries in the US to buy, which means adjusted for living costs, getting it takes it between a few months to few years. And then it still requires maintance to be paid for with time and money. There are very few people who are not going to take it serious.

Karol wrote:

Racerguy180 800120 11207488 wrote:
Yup, 100% agree. People take it waaaaayyyyyyy too seriously. Like 1000% more than GW do.

Imagine an item which takes you 2-3 months of adult salaries in the US to buy, which means adjusted for living costs, getting it takes it between a few months to few years. And then it still requires maintance to be paid for with time and money. There are very few people who are not going to take it serious.

Well, yeah. I think the point is that it'd be nice if GW took it that seriously.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Karol wrote:

Racerguy180 800120 11207488 wrote:
Yup, 100% agree. People take it waaaaayyyyyyy too seriously. Like 1000% more than GW do.

Imagine an item which takes you 2-3 months of adult salaries in the US to buy, which means adjusted for living costs, getting it takes it between a few months to few years. And then it still requires maintance to be paid for with time and money. There are very few people who are not going to take it serious.

Well, yeah. I think the point is that it'd be nice if GW took it that seriously.

No, that's not the point of the comment. At all.
Over the years we've seen some incredibly bad behavior & attitudes during games.
At the end of the evening? No matter how much you've paid for this stuff, no matter how long it took to collect, no matter how long it took you to assemble/paint/etc?
You're still just playing a game with toys. Remember that.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Karol wrote:

Racerguy180 800120 11207488 wrote:
Yup, 100% agree. People take it waaaaayyyyyyy too seriously. Like 1000% more than GW do.

Imagine an item which takes you 2-3 months of adult salaries in the US to buy, which means adjusted for living costs, getting it takes it between a few months to few years. And then it still requires maintance to be paid for with time and money. There are very few people who are not going to take it serious.

Well, yeah. I think the point is that it'd be nice if GW took it that seriously.

They haven't yet, almost 35yrs on.
Seems like they've made their mind up on how to take their game. They view it as a leisure product.

Karol, It's freakin expensive, it always has been outside of boxed sets or army builder deals. At least your army didn't get squatted, like mine did at your age. How would you feel then??? Trust me It would suck more.

Maybe this is a my part of the world expiriance, but if someone where I live told a western rich guy that he should act chill, because the sail boat he ordered, from one of the shipyards here, is a luxury product for a hobby, there would be bad things happning.

Labeling something this or that way has, in my opinion, less impact on how people think about the cost of anything. Same way, It could be a lot worse, is not much of an argument to feel better about anything.

People do take hobbies serious, because they matter to them. If it didn't they would just quit. The money aspect is, for me, very important or even crucial, but I can also imagine someone reacting to changes in GW games the same way lots of people reacted to how Star Wars changed its lore etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs 800120 11207530 wrote:

No, that's not the point of the comment. At all.
Over the years we've seen some incredibly bad behavior & attitudes during games.
At the end of the evening? No matter how much you've paid for this stuff, no matter how long it took to collect, no matter how long it took you to assemble/paint/etc?
You're still just playing a game with toys. Remember that.

There are places in Poland where you can get stabbed for wearing the wrong colour of neckerchief. Thanks to YT, I know that in US, the same can happen to you, if you were the wrong colour or type of a cap in the wrong district. Scarf and caps or their colours seem to be even less important then toys. Yet somehow they generate enough strong emotions for other people to want to off you, without knowing you at all.

People not interested, mostly women, say that football is just men runing around with a ball for an hour. Oddly enough people create hooligan gangs, spaning entire countries, have wars etc Just for being a member of group activity you technically don't need to perform to be alive.

For God Sake Karol... STOP describing Poland as if it was Mad Max... Its a medium income country, part of the UE and the NATO!!!!

40K is not something you do for a living, is not olimpics sport competition... Is just a hobby, its MENT to be fun and relaxing.

If its very expensive for you... Look at other cheaper alternatives (even playing 40k with 3rd party miniatures)... If your group only like hardcore 40k perhaps you should stop hanging with them and play non sociopathic people on line... Anything is better than what you are doing.

Stop being a trol / drama queen... This is far beyond a farce :(

PD: Hooligans dont behave violent because of football... They use football as an excuse for getting drunk and violent... 99% of football followers arent hooligans... Perhaps you shouldnt aspire to imitate or justify sociopathic attitudes (or psicopathic which is a very common trend amongst CEO / boat owners).

PD vis: http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/latest-human-development-index-ranking

So according to the HDI Poland is number 35 out of almost 200 countries... Please, stop insulting the inteligence of the fellow posters.

Karol wrote:

Racerguy180 800120 11207488 wrote:
Yup, 100% agree. People take it waaaaayyyyyyy too seriously. Like 1000% more than GW do.

Imagine an item which takes you 2-3 months of adult salaries in the US to buy, which means adjusted for living costs, getting it takes it between a few months to few years. And then it still requires maintance to be paid for with time and money. There are very few people who are not going to take it serious.

Sounds like a house.

There's 'serious' Karol and there's 'obsessive'. Just like how icarus flew too close to the sun, some people get far too close and unhealthy a relationship/attachment with their hobby. Even worse, people can burn out and rather than take a break,they double down. 'Serious' can be both healthy and unhealthy, depending onnyour approach. I think the notion that to be 'serious', you have to obsess over all aspects to the nth degree, and every little detail is ultimately self destructive. Serious is many things.


I mean, I take my hobby 'seriously' Karol. Ive spent a lot of money on this hobby since way before you were born. I invest time in the models I paint/convert, significant effort, currency. And yes, I have a lot of pride in a hobby I enjoy. I have 2 display cases for over a thousand individual models. And a £200 limited edition print in my hobby room.I have no shame in a hobby I enjoy. I have no shame in showing it to people- I don't hide it away. I've learned the hard way how to find that balance.

My 'seriousness' is relatively healthy. I can also relax with my hobby and enjoy it immensely. I surround myself with like minded people. I can take a step back quite easy from the nuts and bolts, especially the bits that we do not like.

Vatsetis wrote:
For God Sake Karol... STOP describing Poland as if it was Mad Max... Its a medium income country, part of the UE and the NATO!!!!

40K is not something you do for a living, is not olimpics sport competition... Is just a hobby, its MENT to be fun and relaxing.

If its very expensive for you... Look at other cheaper alternatives (even playing 40k with 3rd party miniatures)... If your group only like hardcore 40k perhaps you should stop hanging with them and play non sociopathic people on line... Anything is better than what you are doing.

Stop being a trol / drama queen... This is far beyond a farce :(

PD: Hooligans dont behave violent because of football... They use football as an excuse for getting drunk and violent... 99% of football followers arent hooligans... Perhaps you shouldnt aspire to imitate or justify sociopathic attitudes (or psicopathic which is a very common trend amongst CEO / boat owners).

PD vis: http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/latest-human-development-index-ranking

So according to the HDI Poland is number 35 out of almost 200 countries... Please, stop insulting the inteligence of the fellow posters.

Ireland is 2nd on that list and is also in the EU. Doesn't mean its a good place to live unless you live in one of the big cities or work in one. Ireland is a tax haven for tech companies, the citizens rarely see any of the money as the Government likes to keep the money in Dublin. The infrastructure outside cities is abysmal. My house literally does not have a landline telephone line running to it let alone broadband. Some flats in the towns just run multiple power lines in through a window from a single pole outside. There is no public transport to speak of. The Government are actively trying to shut down the nearest hospital and directing more and more people to hospitals an hour or so away. The land isn't good enough for crop farming so all the farmers have to raise cattle, which they can only sell at a near loss due to EU regulations and they can't start any counter-industry because the disposal of meat production leftovers is run by a single man who happens to own the facilities to dispose of said leftovers. The taoiseach pays himself more than the president of the US. The Government is considered the 19th most corrupt in the world. Just because Karol lives in a country that is statistically not a shithole does not make that country not a shithole.

Karol relating his experiences isn't trolling, he obviously lives somewhere relatively cut off from dense population hubs where poverty and isolation are very real issues.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
For God Sake Karol... STOP describing Poland as if it was Mad Max... Its a medium income country, part of the UE and the NATO!!!!

40K is not something you do for a living, is not olimpics sport competition... Is just a hobby, its MENT to be fun and relaxing.

If its very expensive for you... Look at other cheaper alternatives (even playing 40k with 3rd party miniatures)... If your group only like hardcore 40k perhaps you should stop hanging with them and play non sociopathic people on line... Anything is better than what you are doing.

Stop being a trol / drama queen... This is far beyond a farce :(

PD: Hooligans dont behave violent because of football... They use football as an excuse for getting drunk and violent... 99% of football followers arent hooligans... Perhaps you shouldnt aspire to imitate or justify sociopathic attitudes (or psicopathic which is a very common trend amongst CEO / boat owners).

PD vis: http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/latest-human-development-index-ranking

So according to the HDI Poland is number 35 out of almost 200 countries... Please, stop insulting the inteligence of the fellow posters.

Ireland is 2nd on that list and is also in the EU. Doesn't mean its a good place to live unless you live in one of the big cities or work in one. Ireland is a tax haven for tech companies, the citizens rarely see any of the money as the Government likes to keep the money in Dublin. The infrastructure outside cities is abysmal. My house literally does not have a landline telephone line running to it let alone broadband. Some flats in the towns just run multiple power lines in through a window from a single pole outside. There is no public transport to speak of. The Government are actively trying to shut down the nearest hospital and directing more and more people to hospitals an hour or so away. The land isn't good enough for crop farming so all the farmers have to raise cattle, which they can only sell at a near loss due to EU regulations and they can't start any counter-industry because the disposal of meat production leftovers is run by a single man who happens to own the facilities to dispose of said leftovers. The taoiseach pays himself more than the president of the US. The Government is considered the 19th most corrupt in the world. Just because Karol lives in a country that is statistically not a shithole does not make that country not a shithole.

Karol relating his experiences isn't trolling, he obviously lives somewhere relatively cut off from dense population hubs where poverty and isolation are very real issues.

In fairness, as an Irish guy myself, its annoying how Cork and Dublin are the 2 main hubs of the country, but your painting of our homeland is a bit bleak- you're presenting something like out of Angela's ashes. I'm from the arse end of it myself (and my dad is from where people in the arse end refer to the other arse end) and for the most part it was grande, certainly a far cry from 'Doesn't mean its a good place to live unless you live in one of the big cities or work in one'. That's a very unfair depiction.


For the record, when it comes to hooliganism, living in Scotland as I do, you see a very strong sectarian component to the rangers/cleric rivalry which is one of the most infamous, hate filled and bad-blooded football rivalries in the world. It's genuinely nasty and can easy turn vicious. I have no problem accepting the notion people get sucked into their tribe and lash out at the other tribes, doesn't mean its right or healthy or should be presented for how the world is, absent of any other perspectives or should be viewed as what 'serious' fans should do.

Deadnight wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
For God Sake Karol... STOP describing Poland as if it was Mad Max... Its a medium income country, part of the UE and the NATO!!!!

40K is not something you do for a living, is not olimpics sport competition... Is just a hobby, its MENT to be fun and relaxing.

If its very expensive for you... Look at other cheaper alternatives (even playing 40k with 3rd party miniatures)... If your group only like hardcore 40k perhaps you should stop hanging with them and play non sociopathic people on line... Anything is better than what you are doing.

Stop being a trol / drama queen... This is far beyond a farce :(

PD: Hooligans dont behave violent because of football... They use football as an excuse for getting drunk and violent... 99% of football followers arent hooligans... Perhaps you shouldnt aspire to imitate or justify sociopathic attitudes (or psicopathic which is a very common trend amongst CEO / boat owners).

PD vis: http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/latest-human-development-index-ranking

So according to the HDI Poland is number 35 out of almost 200 countries... Please, stop insulting the inteligence of the fellow posters.

Ireland is 2nd on that list and is also in the EU. Doesn't mean its a good place to live unless you live in one of the big cities or work in one. Ireland is a tax haven for tech companies, the citizens rarely see any of the money as the Government likes to keep the money in Dublin. The infrastructure outside cities is abysmal. My house literally does not have a landline telephone line running to it let alone broadband. Some flats in the towns just run multiple power lines in through a window from a single pole outside. There is no public transport to speak of. The Government are actively trying to shut down the nearest hospital and directing more and more people to hospitals an hour or so away. The land isn't good enough for crop farming so all the farmers have to raise cattle, which they can only sell at a near loss due to EU regulations and they can't start any counter-industry because the disposal of meat production leftovers is run by a single man who happens to own the facilities to dispose of said leftovers. The taoiseach pays himself more than the president of the US. The Government is considered the 19th most corrupt in the world. Just because Karol lives in a country that is statistically not a shithole does not make that country not a shithole.

Karol relating his experiences isn't trolling, he obviously lives somewhere relatively cut off from dense population hubs where poverty and isolation are very real issues.

In fairness, as an Irish guy myself, its annoying how Cork and Dublin are the 2 main hubs of the country, but your painting of our homeland is a bit bleak- you're presenting something like out of Angela's ashes. I'm from the arse end of it myself (and my dad is from where people in the arse end refer to the other arse end) and for the most part it was grande, certainly a far cry from 'Doesn't mean its a good place to live unless you live in one of the big cities or work in one'. That's a very unfair depiction.


For the record, when it comes to hooliganism, living in Scotland as I do, you see a very strong sectarian component to the rangers/cleric rivalry which is one of the most infamous, hate filled and bad-blooded football rivalries in the world. It's genuinely nasty and can easy turn vicious. I have no problem accepting the notion people get sucked into their tribe and lash out at the other tribes, doesn't mean its right or healthy or should be presented for how the world is, absent of any other perspectives or should be viewed as what 'serious' fans should do.

Funnily enough I came from Scotland to Ireland and the sectarian violence isn't really seen outside of Glasgow. Also nothing I've said is untrue. Rural Ireland is insanely under-developed. Cavan isn't even that far from Dublin and moving from Dundee to Cavan was a huge culture shock.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
For God Sake Karol... STOP describing Poland as if it was Mad Max... Its a medium income country, part of the UE and the NATO!!!!

40K is not something you do for a living, is not olimpics sport competition... Is just a hobby, its MENT to be fun and relaxing.

If its very expensive for you... Look at other cheaper alternatives (even playing 40k with 3rd party miniatures)... If your group only like hardcore 40k perhaps you should stop hanging with them and play non sociopathic people on line... Anything is better than what you are doing.

Stop being a trol / drama queen... This is far beyond a farce :(

PD: Hooligans dont behave violent because of football... They use football as an excuse for getting drunk and violent... 99% of football followers arent hooligans... Perhaps you shouldnt aspire to imitate or justify sociopathic attitudes (or psicopathic which is a very common trend amongst CEO / boat owners).

PD vis: http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/latest-human-development-index-ranking

So according to the HDI Poland is number 35 out of almost 200 countries... Please, stop insulting the inteligence of the fellow posters.

Ireland is 2nd on that list and is also in the EU. Doesn't mean its a good place to live unless you live in one of the big cities or work in one. Ireland is a tax haven for tech companies, the citizens rarely see any of the money as the Government likes to keep the money in Dublin. The infrastructure outside cities is abysmal. My house literally does not have a landline telephone line running to it let alone broadband. Some flats in the towns just run multiple power lines in through a window from a single pole outside. There is no public transport to speak of. The Government are actively trying to shut down the nearest hospital and directing more and more people to hospitals an hour or so away. The land isn't good enough for crop farming so all the farmers have to raise cattle, which they can only sell at a near loss due to EU regulations and they can't start any counter-industry because the disposal of meat production leftovers is run by a single man who happens to own the facilities to dispose of said leftovers. The taoiseach pays himself more than the president of the US. The Government is considered the 19th most corrupt in the world. Just because Karol lives in a country that is statistically not a shithole does not make that country not a shithole.

Karol relating his experiences isn't trolling, he obviously lives somewhere relatively cut off from dense population hubs where poverty and isolation are very real issues.

Well Im certainly not defending the living standards of the working class people in the neoliberal EU (which should be obvious just by doing a Google search of my Nickname).

But leaving in Poland (even in a working class neigbourhood or town) is no excuse to endorse 40K with the same toxic attitude of a Football Hooligan.

Football hooligans were called the salt of earth and the real patriots. There was even a new military force created, something kin to US national guard, because not all of the existing army were demeed fully loyal to the new goverment. There is training, ton of cash going to support it. Giving older hooligan associations members a different career oportunity then joing the local mob or police.

Why do you think Cracow is called the city of knives? Cracovia and Visla have been at war since pre WWI, when in the 90s all the hooligan clubs representatives signed a treaty that "hardware" (axs, knifes,etc) are not going to be used in sanctioned inter group fights, both representatives from Cracov refused to sign the packt.

Also there is a gigantic difference between what we call Poland A and Poland B (borders of it more or less follow the borders of the Russian/Prussian occupation). In Warsaw the income needed to survive, not live good, is close to what you need to live in a western city. On the other hand if you live in Goldap or Bialystok, you need a lot less. You also get a lot less, which is also a problem. So yeah parts of Poland very much look like mad max. villages in the east where the only people living there are small children and 40+ people. Ex coal mine areas. Ex communist kolchoz areas that didn't get bought up by some rich dude. People living in dense forests that remember the times where whole europe was govered by it, to a point where some people living in Bieszczady didn't knew that WWII happened. And as a bonus we have places like reeducation camps for problematic german youths in my area, and a constant war between mobs organising smuggling from Ukraine and Belarus. And I can tell you that their land vehicles look a bit like those in mad max. Minus the flamers.

I mean last year, I was digging holes and filling them with spikes to help my grandad kill boars that raided his potato fields. Not all Poland is Warsaw. Just as not all of Spain is Bilbao, some people live in the mountain regions in the north.

I dont know men, I live in one of the most depress districts of Madrid... I could tell you horrible stories of survival and crime... But we also have nice gardens, an excellent public library and a very neat LGS.

So please stop being this sickening and sad drama Queen... Your live is not harder than many other fellow posters... You simply have decided to view things in a negative form because you think is cool for your internet persona... But you dont fool no one.

Vatsetis wrote:
I dont know men, I live in one of the most depress districts of Madrid... I could tell you horrible stories of survival and crime... But we also have nice gardens, an excellent public library and a very neat LGS.

So please stop being this sickening and sad drama Queen... Your live is not harder than many other fellow posters... You simply have decided to view things in a negative form because you think is cool for your internet persona... But you dont fool no one.

Yes. Wild boars are a big problem in most metropolitan cities. You need to lay off Karol, I could tell you horrible stories from Dundee but the standard of living in a street populated with heroin dealers in a city was still higher than the dilapidated farmhouse I live in now (technically, I love it here but it lacks a lot of things like the internet or a shop closer than 5 minutes drive away).

Vatsetis wrote:
You simply have decided to view things in a negative form because you think is cool for your internet persona... But you dont fool no one.

Logic that can be applied to many things!

Spain is one of the countries with the most desolated rural areas of all Europe... I understand the huge difficulties for the hobby that leaving outside main cities mean... But how exactly does that justify engaging the hobby in a Grimm and Dark mode??

 Sim-Life wrote:


Funnily enough I came from Scotland to Ireland and the sectarian violence isn't really seen outside of Glasgow. Also nothing I've said is untrue. Rural Ireland is insanely under-developed. Cavan isn't even that far from Dublin and moving from Dundee to Cavan was a huge culture shock.

Never said it was untrue, I said it was bleak, and an unfair representation.

As an Irish guy who lived for ten years in Edinburgh, I heard my fair share of 'fenian' slurs. Especially at the football- my wife's a jambo - which puts me in the very wrong place when we had season tickets. :p

And My dad's side of the family is from South kerry. Next stop is where luke skywalker was hiding out from the empire. And incidentally one of the last places in the country to have electricity brought to them. And I'm a country boy. Trust me, I know all about under developed rural economy. Hell the term 'rural flight' could have been coined for South kerry.

Saying its 'not a good place to live' is extremely unfair.

In terms of hobbying and getting back a bit more on topic, I was 100% of my gaming population when I first got into 40k. Didn't play a game for about 3 years. Just lonely me and my paint brush! I could still enjoy what I did and I'm still optimistic about stuff- and it sure as hell wasn't a bad place to grow up in.