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Technically, if you have 2 squads you can shoot infinitely till you kill everything in range cause there only limitation is that ywhen the sequence with one squad is over you can go to the next one. Nothing preventing you from going back after the 2d squad has finished it's shooting sequence.


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So, bragg is nothing new here

Usually not as a devastating as just, well, taking a brotherhood that's better at killing to begin with. And definitely not as devastating as just staying in the tide that gives you mortals on a 6 to wound, that plus the litany is where GK's melee potential is this edition; strikes rerolling wounds and getting 2 MW + 2 wounding hits on every 6 to wound is just silly levels of damage. Voldus costs significantly more than a 5-man strike and does like 1/3 as much damage if the strikes are buffed, he's really not a CC monster.

Voldus isn't terrible if for some reason you're committed to running an army that's 100% his subfaction...but even then, you'd probably be better off just taking Draigo honestly. You can get the debuffing on any unit from the subfaction, and the trait better on a librarian anyway since you can get access to sanctic as well, and relics and whatever they call the upgrades, and can even double up WL traits too on it, opening up some interesting possibilities.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Moreover Thousand Sons no longer have a summoning ability so daemons are non-existent and any soup would be punished.

What? They absolutely can still summon, the Chaos Daemons codex (where Daemonic Ritual is from) hasn't changed or updated and there are still CHAOS CHARACTER models in Thousand Sons...

It used to be in the TS and DG books too, it isn't any more. They can still do it, but it's been removed from their books, which suggests that GW doesn't see it as something that's going to exist going forward. I would be very surprised to see it stay in the Daemons codex in its current form, if they were going to do that, they wouldn't have removed it from the DG and TS books.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It used to be in the TS and DG books too, it isn't any more. They can still do it, but it's been removed from their books, which suggests that GW doesn't see it as something that's going to exist going forward. I would be very surprised to see it stay in the Daemons codex in its current form, if they were going to do that, they wouldn't have removed it from the DG and TS books.

Maybe, but it only ever existed in DG/TS/CSM as "reminder text" anyways and resulted in weird errors at times like DG nurglings being iirc 19ppm while daemons nurglings were 21ppm... even though nurglings from the DG book existed 100% as reminder text that, hey, nurglings exist and can be summoned... and couldn't be taken in any way shape or form in a DG detachment.

So I think they're forgoing all of that confusion and keeping daemons and daemon rules (which Daemonic ritual always was) entirely within the Daemons codex where they belong, and no longer doing the "reminder text" in other books.

If anything I'd expect summoning to get an overhaul like it did in Sigmar. God knows summoning in its current state isn't worth a damn.

Rihgu wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It used to be in the TS and DG books too, it isn't any more. They can still do it, but it's been removed from their books, which suggests that GW doesn't see it as something that's going to exist going forward. I would be very surprised to see it stay in the Daemons codex in its current form, if they were going to do that, they wouldn't have removed it from the DG and TS books.

Maybe, but it only ever existed in DG/TS/CSM as "reminder text" anyways and resulted in weird errors at times like DG nurglings being iirc 19ppm while daemons nurglings were 21ppm... even though nurglings from the DG book existed 100% as reminder text that, hey, nurglings exist and can be summoned... and couldn't be taken in any way shape or form in a DG detachment.

So I think they're forgoing all of that confusion and keeping daemons and daemon rules (which Daemonic ritual always was) entirely within the Daemons codex where they belong, and no longer doing the "reminder text" in other books.

It wasn't reminder text any more than DttFE was.



And this no longer exists:



You might still be able to do it, but it is at the awful base version and in no way does the book tie into Tzeentch Daemons in a meaningful way.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If anything I'd expect summoning to get an overhaul like it did in Sigmar. God knows summoning in its current state isn't worth a damn.

Haha, about the only possible way to make it worse would be to give it the AOS treatment.

So yeah, that's probably what's goin to happen.

I'm amused by summoning. They had it balanced pretty correctly in 7th (almost unique for things released in 7th) where you didn't have to pay extra for the new models but it also took a huge investment in psychic dice to actually summon anything so it was more of a flexible niche tool that had a role but couldn't snowball and drown the table in demons (before you give me your horror-stories I played the summon-spam list some in 7th, and if you tell me that you actually snowballed and drowned the board in daemons I'm going to tell you that you were using loaded dice). And then with Sigmar and 8th both they broke it so badly they're unlikely to ever manage to put it back into a useable state ever again.

Nah, it was only "balanced" in 7th because other factions were running around with gratis Transports (Marines) or bodies (Admech), too. Daemons were one of the few strong armies because they could put down a lot of bodies they didn't even pay for. It wasn't gamebreaking because others got loads of special rules through formations they didn't properly pay for, either. It was gamebreaking against the "have-not"-factions, though.
The summoning mechanic in 8th wasn't bad per se, but gratis units doesn't really work when others have to pay points. In narrative you usually had to houserule it to only few units and in matched there were a few players who used it to have a dynamic list.
Personally I hope it's not gone totally, but returns as a tool to teleport your units, or replenish numbers.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If anything I'd expect summoning to get an overhaul like it did in Sigmar. God knows summoning in its current state isn't worth a damn.

Haha, about the only possible way to make it worse would be to give it the AOS treatment.

So yeah, that's probably what's goin to happen.

I admittedly don't know much about Sigmar summoning (Sigmar in general really) other than seeing some praise for it being more interesting and useful since it was based on a thematic points system where you earned your summons. Is this understanding off-base?

Depends on the army. Each army has its own summoning mechanic, they vary from largely useless because you'd never spend the points on it vs something better (khorne) to flavorful and around the right power level (beasts of chaos) to extremely stupid and powerful (tzeentch) to so ridiculously powerful that the rest of the book got nerfed into the ground to compensate for it (slaanesh).

If you put BoC-style summoning into 40k that would be fine. But overall the mechanic has been a constant source of balancing headaches and problems in AOS.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm amused by summoning. They had it balanced pretty correctly in 7th (almost unique for things released in 7th) where you didn't have to pay extra for the new models but it also took a huge investment in psychic dice to actually summon anything so it was more of a flexible niche tool that had a role but couldn't snowball and drown the table in demons (before you give me your horror-stories I played the summon-spam list some in 7th, and if you tell me that you actually snowballed and drowned the board in daemons I'm going to tell you that you were using loaded dice). And then with Sigmar and 8th both they broke it so badly they're unlikely to ever manage to put it back into a useable state ever again.

Speaking as someone who enjoyed 7th a lot... Summoning was not balanced. Maybe for tournaments it wasn't bad, but for casual games? It was atrocious.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It used to be in the TS and DG books too, it isn't any more. They can still do it, but it's been removed from their books, which suggests that GW doesn't see it as something that's going to exist going forward. I would be very surprised to see it stay in the Daemons codex in its current form, if they were going to do that, they wouldn't have removed it from the DG and TS books.

Maybe, but it only ever existed in DG/TS/CSM as "reminder text" anyways and resulted in weird errors at times like DG nurglings being iirc 19ppm while daemons nurglings were 21ppm... even though nurglings from the DG book existed 100% as reminder text that, hey, nurglings exist and can be summoned... and couldn't be taken in any way shape or form in a DG detachment.

So I think they're forgoing all of that confusion and keeping daemons and daemon rules (which Daemonic ritual always was) entirely within the Daemons codex where they belong, and no longer doing the "reminder text" in other books.

It wasn't reminder text any more than DttFE was.

Spoiler:

And this no longer exists:

Spoiler:

You might still be able to do it, but it is at the awful base version and in no way does the book tie into Tzeentch Daemons in a meaningful way.

I mean, the ability isn't on any Thousand Sons units, it's only on units in/from the Codex: Chaos Daemons book, whereas Death to the False Emperor is actually found on Thousand Sons units...

You can not/could not make a <THOUSAND SONS> detachment that includes any units with the Daemonic Ritual rule. Therefore, I personally, cannot classify Daemonic Ritual as a Thousand Sons rule or a meaningful addition to the Thousand Sons codex in any way in the previous or current iteration.

Also, as a note, that version is literally "the awful base version" except instead of CHAOS CHARACTERS it is specifically THOUSAND SONS CHARACTERS and instead of MARK OF CHAOS it's TZEENTCH... so yes I guess the Thousand Sons codex did have a bespoke version of the Daemonic Ritual rule for Chaos Daemon factions, for some reason.

The strat let you roll 4 dice instead of 3 and not suffer any mortals. It made summoning big units a lot more reliable. Still rarely worth using, mind you. But better.

The fact that any and all references to daemon summoning have been completely scrubbed from both the DG and TS codexes strongly suggests they are moving away from it. We'll find out sometime in 2022 I guess.

Rihgu wrote:
Also, as a note, that version is literally "the awful base version" except instead of CHAOS CHARACTERS it is specifically THOUSAND SONS CHARACTERS and instead of MARK OF CHAOS it's TZEENTCH... so yes I guess the Thousand Sons codex did have a bespoke version of the Daemonic Ritual rule for Chaos Daemon factions, for some reason.

The deeper reason for this distinction is that it was used as the basis for yet another conspiracy theory.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm amused by summoning. They had it balanced pretty correctly in 7th (almost unique for things released in 7th) where you didn't have to pay extra for the new models but it also took a huge investment in psychic dice to actually summon anything so it was more of a flexible niche tool that had a role but couldn't snowball and drown the table in demons (before you give me your horror-stories I played the summon-spam list some in 7th, and if you tell me that you actually snowballed and drowned the board in daemons I'm going to tell you that you were using loaded dice). And then with Sigmar and 8th both they broke it so badly they're unlikely to ever manage to put it back into a useable state ever again.

I remember taking units of 16 pink horrors to get 3 psychic dice. The nice thing was when they split you would still generate 3 psychic dice. Once you had 20+ dice summoning was easy as cake. Perils were only a minor inconvenience. I went to a "friendly" 1300 point event (150+ players) where I summoned 2k+ worth burning chariots onto the field each game! Nobody could withstand that many lascannon shots!

To say that summoning was balanced in 7th is wrong. It was super broken.

My friends are actually very fond of 7th edition, and I played 30k thousand sons against tzeentch daemons. Summoning was stupid and I don't ever want to fight it again. I think it was far too neutered, though.

JakeSiren wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm amused by summoning. They had it balanced pretty correctly in 7th (almost unique for things released in 7th) where you didn't have to pay extra for the new models but it also took a huge investment in psychic dice to actually summon anything so it was more of a flexible niche tool that had a role but couldn't snowball and drown the table in demons (before you give me your horror-stories I played the summon-spam list some in 7th, and if you tell me that you actually snowballed and drowned the board in daemons I'm going to tell you that you were using loaded dice). And then with Sigmar and 8th both they broke it so badly they're unlikely to ever manage to put it back into a useable state ever again.

I remember taking units of 16 pink horrors to get 3 psychic dice. The nice thing was when they split you would still generate 3 psychic dice. Once you had 20+ dice summoning was easy as cake. Perils were only a minor inconvenience. I went to a "friendly" 1300 point event (150+ players) where I summoned 2k+ worth burning chariots onto the field each game! Nobody could withstand that many lascannon shots!

To say that summoning was balanced in 7th is wrong. It was super broken.

...I...guess my experience of my opponents realizing that if they shot the Pink Horrors a lot I couldn't summon much was unusual, then? (Also: Summoning is definitely broken if you hide a bunch of Heralds in a Screamerstar so your opponents can't kill the psychic dice, but that's more of a problem because the rerollable 2++ was broken.)

Summoning is something that should be relegated to something done before the battle as an explanation.

Why do you CSM army has chaos demon? They summoned them

As something to do mid battle will always be unbalanced because the only way to balance summong in a closed game enviroment like 40k is to have specific summoner units that summon specific "summon only" units with a fair point cost for the fist one.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm amused by summoning. They had it balanced pretty correctly in 7th (almost unique for things released in 7th) where you didn't have to pay extra for the new models but it also took a huge investment in psychic dice to actually summon anything so it was more of a flexible niche tool that had a role but couldn't snowball and drown the table in demons (before you give me your horror-stories I played the summon-spam list some in 7th, and if you tell me that you actually snowballed and drowned the board in daemons I'm going to tell you that you were using loaded dice). And then with Sigmar and 8th both they broke it so badly they're unlikely to ever manage to put it back into a useable state ever again.

Any psychic list worth its salt succeeded on 2s so you didn't need very many dice to summon huge hordes of daemons.

The problem wasn't that you couldn't bury a table in daemons, the problem was that 3000pts of free bloodletters was nowhere near as powerful as the OTHER things you could do with psychic powers, so daemon summoning was mostly reserved for things like Librarius Conclave+WarCon admech to be used as screens and objective grabbers.

Daemon summoning was broken in 7th too, just not as broken as everything else was.

AoS brought back free-ish summoning (most armies got a secondary currency system they could spend on summons, if it made sense to summon for them lore wise) it immediately broke the game in the opposite direction thanks to Legions of Nagash, Pink Horrors (as is tradition) and Slaanesh all abusing it.

Free summoning is stupid, 40k is better without it.





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 AnomanderRake wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm amused by summoning. They had it balanced pretty correctly in 7th (almost unique for things released in 7th) where you didn't have to pay extra for the new models but it also took a huge investment in psychic dice to actually summon anything so it was more of a flexible niche tool that had a role but couldn't snowball and drown the table in demons (before you give me your horror-stories I played the summon-spam list some in 7th, and if you tell me that you actually snowballed and drowned the board in daemons I'm going to tell you that you were using loaded dice). And then with Sigmar and 8th both they broke it so badly they're unlikely to ever manage to put it back into a useable state ever again.

I remember taking units of 16 pink horrors to get 3 psychic dice. The nice thing was when they split you would still generate 3 psychic dice. Once you had 20+ dice summoning was easy as cake. Perils were only a minor inconvenience. I went to a "friendly" 1300 point event (150+ players) where I summoned 2k+ worth burning chariots onto the field each game! Nobody could withstand that many lascannon shots!

To say that summoning was balanced in 7th is wrong. It was super broken.

...I...guess my experience of my opponents realizing that if they shot the Pink Horrors a lot I couldn't summon much was unusual, then? (Also: Summoning is definitely broken if you hide a bunch of Heralds in a Screamerstar so your opponents can't kill the psychic dice, but that's more of a problem because the rerollable 2++ was broken.)

All I'm getting from your posts is that you never learned how to properly run daemon lists in 7th. It was incredibly trivial to make your army functionally immune to shooting(especially with split making pink horror units nearly impossible to kill) while still having enough dice leftover to reliably summon several hundred points of daemons per turn.

End of 7th edition was basically Daemon Deathstar with some summoning vs Daemon Deathstar with lots of summoning vs Marine Deathstar with some summoning.

 Galas wrote:
Summoning is something that should be relegated to something done before the battle as an explanation.

Why do you CSM army has chaos demon? They summoned them

As something to do mid battle will always be unbalanced because the only way to balance summong in a closed game enviroment like 40k is to have specific summoner units that summon specific "summon only" units with a fair point cost for the fist one.

In the spirit of this opinion. What do people think of the following proposed summoning rule:

Daemon Summoning:
Daemon units included in a detachment that have a mark keyword that matches the mark keyword (Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle) of any characters in that detachment do not remove purity bonuses.

Is this too much? Too little?

Do they still cost points? Because if they are free summoned or based on some mechanic that makes them practically free like the ones for some armies in AoS, them am not sure that it would be balanced. If they cost points, then I guess this is just a mechanic to avoid playing a soup list, and mostly depends on how good the combos are. If taking demons means that suddenly Magnus solos 1000pts of other armies, then it probably would be too powerful. On the other hand if it is just units with no or little synergies, then probably not many people would care. Well asides for people playing the list, of course.

I do wonder whether there should be an option to have 'summoning' points instead of reinforcement points for it and instead of that being the max you can use total it's the most that you can have summoned at any one point.

pothocboots wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Summoning is something that should be relegated to something done before the battle as an explanation.

Why do you CSM army has chaos demon? They summoned them

As something to do mid battle will always be unbalanced because the only way to balance summong in a closed game enviroment like 40k is to have specific summoner units that summon specific "summon only" units with a fair point cost for the fist one.

In the spirit of this opinion. What do people think of the following proposed summoning rule:

Daemon Summoning:
Daemon units included in a detachment that have a mark keyword that matches the mark keyword (Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle) of any characters in that detachment do not remove purity bonuses.

Is this too much? Too little?

that is what i 100% would want yes
Lets me still bring tzeentch demons with my thousand sons.
Removes the janky "do nothing to maybe get to summon what you want" part of the rule



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Karol wrote:
Do they still cost points? Because if they are free summoned or based on some mechanic that makes them practically free like the ones for some armies in AoS, them am not sure that it would be balanced. If they cost points, then I guess this is just a mechanic to avoid playing a soup list, and mostly depends on how good the combos are. If taking demons means that suddenly Magnus solos 1000pts of other armies, then it probably would be too powerful. On the other hand if it is just units with no or little synergies, then probably not many people would care. Well asides for people playing the list, of course.

From what i understand of their proposition is that you would include them at listbuilding. So instead of bringing Tzaangors, you'd be able to bring a squad of horrors instead for example, still paying for them

Catulle wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Exactly. We've had a 5-page thread on if a Helbrute gets an extra attack. If someone was being that anal about it to me I'd just go "sod it, have your extra attack if it means we can actually play the game".

Look thee not upon YMDC. It is a dreadful place full of bad faith arguments and *exactly the same* three to five posters having *exactly the same* argument until time immemorial. It's worthless for its stated purpose, but it at least acts as a wankery containment zone.

Truer words were never spoken.

pothocboots wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Summoning is something that should be relegated to something done before the battle as an explanation.

Why do you CSM army has chaos demon? They summoned them

As something to do mid battle will always be unbalanced because the only way to balance summong in a closed game enviroment like 40k is to have specific summoner units that summon specific "summon only" units with a fair point cost for the fist one.

In the spirit of this opinion. What do people think of the following proposed summoning rule:

Daemon Summoning:
Daemon units included in a detachment that have a mark keyword that matches the mark keyword (Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle) of any characters in that detachment do not remove purity bonuses.

Is this too much? Too little?

The dream is a Daemonkin Army of Renown that allows you to fully build a CSM/Daemons detachment with the single mark of your choice, but after Belakor I don't think we can trust GW to pull that off well...