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 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Gert, this is why you need to make the fact that the Imperium is bad painfully obvious.

Because there are people who look at a xenophobic, genocidal war machine and think "Yes, they need to do that to save the human race!"

They say "...the Imperium has been in a state of perpetual warfare on a million fronts for 10 thousand years." without considering the fact that the Imperium started that war itself when it began a crusade of genocidal expansion with the aim of human supremacy over the entire galaxy.

So what do you think the Imperium should do differently? Start peace talks with Chaos? Negotiate trade with Tyranids or Dark Eldar?

 Daemonhammer wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Gert, this is why you need to make the fact that the Imperium is bad painfully obvious.

Because there are people who look at a xenophobic, genocidal war machine and think "Yes, they need to do that to save the human race!"

They say "...the Imperium has been in a state of perpetual warfare on a million fronts for 10 thousand years." without considering the fact that the Imperium started that war itself when it began a crusade of genocidal expansion with the aim of human supremacy over the entire galaxy.

So what do you think the Imperium should do differently? Start peace talks with Chaos? Negotiate trade with Tyranids or Dark Eldar?

It should die.

The Imperium is solely responsible for the current state of the galaxy and should pay the price. Humanity as a species can survive without it, just as it survived before the Emperor began his genocidal mission.

Did the Imperium create the Chaos gods or even the Eye of Terror?

Did the Imperium create Tyranids, Orks, Necrons or Eldar?

No they didnt, those evils were there long before the Imperium was about.

 Daemonhammer wrote:
Did the Imperium create the Chaos gods or even the Eye of Terror?

Did the Imperium create Tyranids, Orks, Necrons or Eldar?

No they didnt, those evils were there long before the Imperium was about.

Did the chaos gods invent space marines who would rip the galaxy in half? Nope, that was all the Imperium.

Also, by what criteria do you call Tyranids, Orks, Necrons and Eldar evil that does not also apply to the Imperium of Man?

Daemonhammer wrote:How can you genuinely complain about militarism, fanaticism, xenophobia and bigotry in the Imperium? The Imperium is completely justified in having those attitudes.

No, they are not. The Interex stand as a counter to that.

The Interex are a society that is xeno-allied, anti-Chaos, and manages to do that with the militarism, fanaticism, xenophobia and bigotry.

The Imperium is flat out just *bad*.

Harsh and brutal behavior is not only justified but even necessary for the Imperium to survive.

The Interex did just fine. You know what killed the Interex? The Imperium.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Daemonhammer wrote:
So what do you think the Imperium should do differently? Start peace talks with Chaos? Negotiate trade with Tyranids or Dark Eldar?

It should die.

The Imperium is solely responsible for the current state of the galaxy and should pay the price. Humanity as a species can survive without it, just as it survived before the Emperor began his genocidal mission.

Absolutely correct. If humanity should survive, it should do so without the Imperium, because the Imperium is unequivocally evil.

However, just because the Imperium is evil doesn't mean Chaos is good, and it doesn't change that those loyal to an evil regime should be called "loyalists".

There is no real "good guy" in 40k. trying to decide whose the least evil between all the various factions is like deciding whose least evil between a list of Hitler, Stalin, Ghengis Khan, Vald the Impaler, Nero, and Leopold II

The Imperium could have peace talks with certain xenos. The Imperium could just not punish convicts by making them Servitors, burn them to death, or strip them to the front of a machine to be in constant agony for the hell of it. The Imperium is not the only way humanity can survive.

The only way you could say the Imperium is justified is if you think you're one of the people who wouldn't be killed tortured, or born with a "Kill-Me-Aura" like psykers and blanks, only to be used as fuel for the emperor, or strangled as a kid.

It is the most brutal regime. Humanity has fallen. The Imperium even more so.

The Imperium could have peace talks with certain xenos

*sighs* name one.
I'm not arguing the IoM is the good guys here, but on the Xenos front NONE of the Xenos races are going to happily sit down with the IoM.

One? T'au.

Next, any races the T'au have under their wing.

Jokaero, as well, but that's less peace talks, and more bananas.

BrianDavion wrote:

The Imperium could have peace talks with certain xenos

*sighs* name one.
I'm not arguing the IoM is the good guys here, but on the Xenos front NONE of the Xenos races are going to happily sit down with the IoM.

Is that before or after the Imperium tried to wipe them all out?

Because, sure, they wouldn’t be inclined to be nice after humanity’s biggest empire tried to slaughter them all.
But before then, well…

BrianDavion wrote:

The Imperium could have peace talks with certain xenos

*sighs* name one.
I'm not arguing the IoM is the good guys here, but on the Xenos front NONE of the Xenos races are going to happily sit down with the IoM.

The Tau Empire.

You know, the species which has an entire caste of diplomats and emissaries and which views military action as a last resort after diplomatic attempts have failed.

The Imperium could easily cede control of a collection of systems in exchange for a temporary truce and potentially an alliance against more important threats. Sure, it probably won't last forever but it would close off one front for a time as the Tau set about incorporating the new systems into the Empire and allow the Imperium to focus its attention elsewhere.

Basically the 40K equivalent of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

The Imperium could have peace talks with certain xenos

*sighs* name one.
I'm not arguing the IoM is the good guys here, but on the Xenos front NONE of the Xenos races are going to happily sit down with the IoM.

The Tau Empire.

You know, the species which has an entire caste of diplomats and emissaries and which views military action as a last resort after diplomatic attempts have failed.

The Imperium could easily cede control of a collection of systems in exchange for a temporary truce and potentially an alliance against more important threats. Sure, it probably won't last forever but it would close off one front for a time as the Tau set about incorporating the new systems into the Empire and allow the Imperium to focus its attention elsewhere.

Basically the 40K equivalent of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

ok, name one that they haven't already done that, the IoM ahs struck temproary accords with the Tau before

40k has a bunch of minor xeno species, many of which the imperium refused to even try diplomacy. One example included allowing HUMANS that were allies to an alien species to join the imperium during the horus heresy.

T'au are just the major race most likely. But Eldar would also be willing to go for peace treaties if it benefited them.

The Imperium burned all the bridges they could have taken for peace. The Imperium had chances to make allies. The Imperium still has a chance if it stops trying to murder every xenos it comes across. But it refuses to.

Luckily we have the IOM to prevent humanity into falling into xenos anarchy and communism"... WtF!!!!

BEST CASE scenario the IOM can be considered "good guys" only to the level of Judge Dredd in the Karl Urban film... A film that goes quite a mile to show that this sort of "law" is almost as bad as "crime" and that the main victims of this conflict are civilians trapped in the middle.

The imperium and it’s citizens are only under constant threat because humans have spread out across the galaxy assuming it belongs to them. And they have assumed they can take it by force.

Sending millions or billions or trillions on humans to their death is not trying to save humanity it’s trying to keep the threat far enough away from the high lords of terror that they will never pay the price for humanities never ending xenocide.

Chaos only take such an interest in humanity because of the emperor and his plans made humanity the perfect tool for chaos to try a bad consume the galaxy.

The eye of terror was always there but until the traitor legions went to live their what came out of it? There were no demon armadas going. In black crusades

yeah cause the tyranids where TOOOOOOOOOOOOOTALLY gonna ignore em if they only occupied a small empire.. how'd that work out for the Tau?

Its highly doubtful that the IOM tendency to fight everyone... Including himself... Is the best way to protect the galaxy from the Tyranid external threat.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Tau Empire.

You know, the species which has an entire caste of diplomats and emissaries and which views military action as a last resort after diplomatic attempts have failed.

The Tau objective with regards to the Imperium, and everyone else, is a client species of slaves to the Greater Good.

Military action will be used where advantageous to the Greater Good. Diplomatic action will be used where advantageous to the Greater Good. The size of the human population of the galaxy will be adjusted to best fit the needs of the Greater Good.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Imperium is solely responsible for the current state of the galaxy and should pay the price.

Prior to the rise of Imperium:
-The war in heaven created the hellscape that is the current warp, the c'tan ate most things and the enslavers ate most of the rest, the Eldar and krok were created
-The Eldar murder-fcked slaanesh into existence and fragmented into two distinct groups - a dying race that tortures as a way of life to buy one more day, and a dying race who throw whole worlds and civilizations under the bus to buy one more day.
-The Kork became the orks - biological weapons that exist only to fight and kill and multiply. The rise of the Imperium and the death of the ork 'beast' at the hands of the Emperor slowed their inexorable march towards the total slaughter of everyone they can reach for a time. Their only motivation? 'Krump it'.
-And somewhere beyond the borders of the Imperium the Tyranids were hungry and looking for more food.

In amongst all of this mankind was taking its first steps to becoming a psychic race, a state that meant literally every human being was a potential portal to the afore mentioned hellscape and chaos gods through which they could reach into realspace and and bend it to their will. Their will being to eat the souls of mankind (and everything else), preferably in a long-term farm of torture and misery to best sustain them because that is the messed up place the war and the Eldar left them.

The Imperium as the Emperor envisaged it was a brutal and flawed attempt to prevent chaos from getting enough of a grip on humanity to stop them from growing beyond this early vulnerable state into a race of psykers strong enough to stand alone, by pulling all humans under the same oppressive banner lest chaos splinter away a group of them to turn on the rest as their agents in realspace.

It failed, and now the Imperium exists in a kind of holding pattern tilting back and forth between a step on the long road to psychic freedom, and a step on the short road to chaos soul farm. They are unapologetically 'evil' while believing their actions to be the lesser of all evils. But soley responsible for the state of the galaxy? Not by a long shot.

mrFickle wrote:
I was thinking about the use of the words loyalist and traitor for Space Marines and CSM. I feel like their intention is to set out instantly who the goodies and baddies are, because they aren’t just words used by imperial characters in the stories they are used all over the place in marketing etc.

But of course if you think being loyal to a totalitarian genocidal theocracy makes you a goodie then you need to check yourself. The irony of the use of loyalists and traitors is that it really makes the CSM the goodies because they turned their back and want to destroy the horror that is the imperium that would make the the goodies and the space marines baddies.

There’s a speech by angron where says he doesnt kill and slaughter because he not moral, he does it because the butchers nails compel him. If he were a moral man he would have killed the emperor already.

I suppose it’s just another way in which GW try to make us all look at the 40K universe through the eyes of an imperial citizen

In my humble opinion W40k isn't about the eternal war among the Good against the Evil, but among the Evil against other kinds of Evil and is up to us choose what is the lesser evil. But how can we say the faction X is an evil less evil of any other W40k's faction? To me is impossible.

Again, the warp is a reflection of the material plane.

The Imperium fuels the current incarnation of the warp by being oppressive and engaging in never-ending war.

Change that, and you change the nature of the warp and the entities within.

The_Grim_Angel wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I was thinking about the use of the words loyalist and traitor for Space Marines and CSM. I feel like their intention is to set out instantly who the goodies and baddies are, because they aren’t just words used by imperial characters in the stories they are used all over the place in marketing etc.

But of course if you think being loyal to a totalitarian genocidal theocracy makes you a goodie then you need to check yourself. The irony of the use of loyalists and traitors is that it really makes the CSM the goodies because they turned their back and want to destroy the horror that is the imperium that would make the the goodies and the space marines baddies.

There’s a speech by angron where says he doesnt kill and slaughter because he not moral, he does it because the butchers nails compel him. If he were a moral man he would have killed the emperor already.

I suppose it’s just another way in which GW try to make us all look at the 40K universe through the eyes of an imperial citizen

In my humble opinion W40k isn't about the eternal war among the Good against the Evil, but among the Evil against other kinds of Evil and is up to us choose what is the lesser evil. But how can we say the faction X is an evil less evil of any other W40k's faction? To me is impossible.

Virtually every faction of 40K is horrible to the Other, that is those outside their own particular faction. However quite a few factions, such as the Imperium, Chaos, and Dark Eldar, are horrible even within their own faction with internecine fighting, torture, or oppression. Orks don't seem to mind it and see the fighting as just the way things are and get a kick out of it. Tyranids are all really just cells forming the body of the Hive Mind. Any fighting between Tyranids is intentional to test which strain is stronger.

Actually I would argue that Craftworlds, Exodites, Harlequins, and Tau are perhaps the least dark of 40K's factions, for the simple fact of them generally not being riven by internal conflict even if they have disagreements. The odd honor duel between Exodites or Saim-hann champions doesn't really count. Yes, I am aware that Craftworlds have fought wars and proxy wars too, but they are notable for being uncommon. They still might be horrible to Outsiders, but to those inside their group they seem to be less gakky. The quality of life for Craftworlders seems actually pretty good and is far above what most people in the Imperium could dream of. Sure, one could argue they are under mental stress and oppressed by the Path system, but that is still far better than the mental and physical oppression suffered by menial workers within the Imperium.

The Tau similarly seem to not have internecine conflict despite Farsight breaking from the Ethereals. Even then, his vision seems to be more of the Greater Good without the need for Ethereals. Again, one could argue the caste system is oppressive, but that might be bias from those that don't live in caste based societies. Even the humans that join them, though a client state/race, seem to have enjoyed their improved standard of living enough to for example fight fiercely against Imperial reconquest (as detailed in the Imperial retaking of Taros).

I am not arguing these factions are "good" but they are certainly less dark IMO than some other factions.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Again, the warp is a reflection of the material plane.

The Imperium fuels the current incarnation of the warp by being oppressive and engaging in never-ending war.

Change that, and you change the nature of the warp and the entities within.

While true, the problem is the big 4 Chaos gods are powerful enough now to survive for a time and to induce mortals to behave in a manner that feeds them. The big 4 are like billionaires, with more than enough to live off of even if you cut off their income today. So for example even if the Imperium were to become suddenly pacifist overnight, and that would starve Khorne in the long term, he has enough reserves to survive for probably a long time. In that time, Khorne's daemons would tear a bloody path through the suddenly pacifistic Imperium, and Khorne could expend some of his vast accumulated power to induce rage and bloodthirstiness in people, thus generating his own food effectively. All mortal races would have to change their nature and be able to survive long enough, containing any attempt by the gods to throw things off, that the gods eventually starve and the warp calms.

Or the alternative would be to do what the Necrons do and seal the warp off using blackstone. The downside though of a tight seal like what the Necrons do seems to create a lethal apathy in most humans, and presumably other species with at least some warp signature.

BrianDavion wrote:

The Imperium could have peace talks with certain xenos

*sighs* name one.
I'm not arguing the IoM is the good guys here, but on the Xenos front NONE of the Xenos races are going to happily sit down with the IoM.

The T'au, and their various client races? The client races that the Interex had allied with? And we've already seen cases where Orks and Eldar have been happy to parlay with Imperial forces - it's not unreasonable to say that those races couldn't find a way to reach mutually beneficial relationships.

After all, if all Orks want is to fight - let the Imperium guide them to the fights.

A.T. wrote:Military action will be used where advantageous to the Greater Good. Diplomatic action will be used where advantageous to the Greater Good. The size of the human population of the galaxy will be adjusted to best fit the needs of the Greater Good.

The same could be said of the Imperium.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Imperium is solely responsible for the current state of the galaxy and should pay the price.

Prior to the rise of Imperium:
-And somewhere beyond the borders of the Imperium the Tyranids were hungry and looking for more food.

Eh, the Tyranids only came to the galaxy because the Imperium was civil-warring and overloaded the Pharos. They *did* accidentally bring the Tyranids in.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The same could be said of the Imperium.

The Imperium will say they hate you and then shove you into the furnace.
The Tau will say they are your friends and then have you build the furnace. Then they will shove you in, for the Greater Good.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Eh, the Tyranids only came to the galaxy because the Imperium was civil-warring and overloaded the Pharos. They *did* accidentally bring the Tyranids in.

I guess they ran out of things during the heresy to take the mystery out of with those books. I await the trilogy of Alpharius founding the Tau empire, realising his folly, and then disguising himself as farsight only to be recognised by Guilliman as the dawn blade is revealed to be the weapon of his brother...

A.T. wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The same could be said of the Imperium.

The Imperium will say they hate you and then shove you into the furnace.
The Tau will say they are your friends and then have you build the furnace. Then they will shove you in, for the Greater Good.

That's projection from the POV of the Imperium.

There is no evidence the Tau actually do that kind of systematic genocide. Please quote and cite your sources. Unless you are referring to the 4th Sphere Expansion? In which case, that was shown to be an aberration and traumatic response to what they went through. Those commanders were punished. The 5th Sphere Expansion has not done the same. If you refer to Dawn of War games, the Tau ending was non-canonical. There is actually an official winner of each DoW and expansion, with all the other faction endings non-canonical.

Sure the Tau are not above conquest when diplomacy fails, and their client races are in a subordinate role, but that's different from what you are accusing them of.

Also, Commander Brightsword committed the Koloth Gorge Massacre on Nimbosa in which his forces completely wiped out the Imperial defenders, giving no quarter.

He was recalled back to T'au to face censure for his actions.

The Imperium would pin a medal on a commander who did that to any xenos species.

A.T. wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The same could be said of the Imperium.

The Imperium will say they hate you and then shove you into the furnace.
The Tau will say they are your friends and then have you build the furnace. Then they will shove you in, for the Greater Good.

The Imperium will tell you that they have no choice, and put you in the furnace that your ancestors built, that you maintain, and that your children will stoke, because "putting you in the furnace is the only way to save humanity".

Same difference - just replace "Greater Good" for "the Emperor". The difference is that the Imperium's body count is vastly higher.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Eh, the Tyranids only came to the galaxy because the Imperium was civil-warring and overloaded the Pharos. They *did* accidentally bring the Tyranids in.

I guess they ran out of things during the heresy to take the mystery out of with those books. I await the trilogy of Alpharius founding the Tau empire, realising his folly, and then disguising himself as farsight only to be recognised by Guilliman as the dawn blade is revealed to be the weapon of his brother...

Hey, all I'm saying is that the Tyranids *are* technically humanity's fault, like it or not.

The main threat of the Tau to the Imperium is not so much its military threat, since the Tau are a small empire still on the grand scheme of things. It is the ideological threat, because they offer an alternative path to the Imperium for human survival.

The humans on Taros if anything fought harder than the Tau to resist the Imperium's reconquest because the humans had enjoyed an improved quality of life and some local autonomy in the 40 or so years since the Tau took Taros.

Now of course the Imperium would view the idea of humans treating aliens as equals, let alone being subordinate to them, repugnant but that's the whole point: the humans under the Tau pose the threat of seductive new ideas to the downtrodden masses of the Imperium. The Imperium fears the spread of these ideas more than the Tau's actual physical conquests.

Iracundus wrote:
The main threat of the Tau to the Imperium is not so much its military threat, since the Tau are a small empire still on the grand scheme of things. It is the ideological threat, because they offer an alternative path to the Imperium for human survival.

The humans on Taros if anything fought harder than the Tau to resist the Imperium's reconquest because the humans had enjoyed an improved quality of life and some local autonomy in the 40 or so years since the Tau took Taros.

Now of course the Imperium would view the idea of humans treating aliens as equals, let alone being subordinate to them, repugnant but that's the whole point: the humans under the Tau pose the threat of seductive new ideas to the downtrodden masses of the Imperium. The Imperium fears the spread of these ideas more than the Tau's actual physical conquests.

Exactly - the Tau are proof that the Imperium is not the only way that humanity can survive - and therefore why they are such a threat.

Damm T'aus and their communist infiltrarion tactics... I thought those "reds" have been erased after the fall of the wall. :(

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Imperium will tell you that they have no choice

They would say it was your duty, or their demand, or nothing at all and just push you in. But they would do it to your face by preference.

It's one of those things they haven't yet ruined about the Tau by giving too much background information in stories, that they are likely just as much slaves to the Ethereals as their client races, and potentially working against their own long-term interests depending on the ultimate true goal of the Greater Good.